Are the legendary BEAST reincarnations of Jolten, Flareon. and Vaporen

[Silktree]

I think this theory is wrong because the existence of multiple members of their species means that the Burned Tower beasts are just individuals of their species resurrected by Ho-Oh, but not that Ho-Oh actually brought them into being.

There is absolutely no evidence that the beasts are not unique in the game canon.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

There is absolutely no evidence that the beasts are not unique in the game canon.

Yeah, there's a reason that the games will say that there are "only one" of each legendary Pokemon. Maybe not throughout multiple games, but could you honestly imagine if you could only find Mewtwo in the original Red/Blue/Yellow and never in another game? Good luck finding one. It's a game element that isn't meant to be taken literally.

 

[Silktree]

Since we aren't disputing their uniqueness, would you mind telling me why the games haven't confirmed that the beasts are reincaranated Eeveelutions? Why would that something as banal as that be turned into a mystery?

 

[SquirtleMan493]

Since we aren't disputing their uniqueness, would you mind telling me why the games haven't confirmed that the beasts are reincaranated Eeveelutions? Why would that something as banal as that be turned into a mystery?

It seems like GF likes to leave things to the imagination of the fans. Doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to make the Legendary Beast = Eeveelution connection. It seems relatively implied given the circumstances.

 

[Silktree]

It seems relatively implied given the circumstances.

It's "implied" if you don't take the text at face value and come up with a convoluted theory as to how Jolteon got itself killed by being the catalyst of a fire, which then somehow cost the lives of its Water-type and Fire-type brothers. The theory appeals to some merely because it assumes that the the beasts have their types because they had them before being reincarnated, even though Crystal confirmed that Ho-Oh gave them those elements.

The three Sages who were involved with Crystal's plot climax did train the three Eeveelutions - that is the only real hint in favor of this theory. However, those same people referred to the beasts' original selves as nameless creatures, so they most certainly were not aware of a connection. What sort of way is that to allude to anything?

 

[SquirtleMan493]

It's "implied" if you don't take the text at face value and come up with a convoluted theory as to how Jolteon got itself killed by being the catalyst of a fire, which then somehow cost the lives of its Water-type and Fire-type brothers. The theory appeals to some merely because it assumes that the the beasts have their types because they had them before being reincarnated, even though Crystal confirmed that Ho-Oh gave them those elements.

The three Sages who were involved with Crystal's plot climax did train the three Eeveelutions - that is the only real hint in favor of this theory. However, those same people referred to the beasts' original selves as nameless creatures, so they most certainly were not aware of a connection. What sort of way is that to allude to anything?

Well, when a building partially collapses on top of you, I don't care what your "type" is, I want to see you survive that.

And I don't know of a place in Crystal where it's confirmed that the elements that the beasts represent were given to them by Ho-Oh after resurrection. Either way, no reason they couldn't have gotten the same elements.

And the games play up to the unknown factor ("nameless creatures") pretty often. Besides, I'd like you to tell me what these "nameless" creatures could have been. Is it possible that the Eeveelutions were just unknown at the time or just not that common? It was over 150 years ago and it's pretty evident in Pokemon that not all that much about Pokemon was known in the past.

 

[Instrutilus]

Well, have you ever encountered wild Eevee in the main games? No, Sinnoh doesn't count, they're imported, but the point is they were probably thought to incredibly rare and thus prized Pokémon in Ecruteak that were unfortunately killed in a horrible incident and revived by Ho-oh.

Speaking of which, where DO Eevee naturally come from? You either get them from Bill/a friend of Bill, or they're imported.

 

[Silktree]

Well, when a building partially collapses on top of you, I don't care what your "type" is, I want to see you survive that.

The point is that of all the Pokémon that could have died in there, Flareon and Vaporeon are quite far from the most likely candidates.

And I don't know of a place in Crystal where it's confirmed that the elements that the beasts represent were given to them by Ho-Oh after resurrection. Either way, no reason they couldn't have gotten the same elements.

There is a book that refers to the beasts, saying that "they were said to have been born of water, lightning and fire." The Sages confirm that Ho-Oh is the one that gave them new life.

And the games play up to the unknown factor ("nameless creatures") pretty often.

Some examples would be nice.

Besides, I'd like you to tell me what these "nameless" creatures could have been.

A Pokémon or several Pokémon yet to be introduced in Generation II with actual affinity to the beasts that goes beyond a fan theory. The beasts haven't been touched upon in years - until now. I'm waiting to see if anything is going to come from Zoroark's association with the beasts in Black and White.

Is it possible that the Eeveelutions were just unknown at the time or just not that common? It was over 150 years ago and it's pretty evident in Pokemon that not all that much about Pokemon was known in the past.

It doesn't make sense that a legendary Pokémon Ho-Oh was well known to the residents, whereas Eevee or its evolutions were mysterious creatures. But I digress: For all we know, the residents didn't even realize that the rainbow-colored Pokémon was Ho-Oh, but the Sages who tell the story are able to connect the dots: "When the BRASS TOWER burned down, three nameless POKéMON were said to have perished. It was tragic. However... A rainbow-colored POKéMON... In other words... HO-OH descended from the sky and gave new life to the three POKéMON." Why can the Sages figure out that Ho-Oh was there, but not the very Pokémon they are training?

The bottom line is that you can assume whatever you'd like, but if Game Freak were angling for your theory, they went about implying it in the wrong way.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

The point is that of all the Pokémon that could have died in there, Flareon and Vaporeon are quite far from the most likely candidates.

To me, they're just as likely as any other Pokemon.

There is a book that refers to the beasts, saying that "they were said to have been born of water, lightning and fire." The Sages confirm that Ho-Oh is the one that gave them new life.

If I'm not mistaken, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Flareon ARE water, lightning, and fire.

Some examples would be nice.

For example, not all of Mewtwo's dex entries mention Mew as the source of his DNA.

Or.

How Corsola's FireRed/SoulSilver entry mentions a town in the south that's built on top of a colony of Corsola (Pacifidlog Town?).

A Pokémon or several Pokémon yet to be introduced in Generation II with actual affinity to the beasts that goes beyond a fan theory. The beasts haven't been touched upon in years - until now. I'm waiting to see if anything is going to come from Zoroark's association with the beasts in Black and White.

Get back to me if you have a breakthrough.

It doesn't make sense that a legendary Pokémon Ho-Oh was well known to the residents, whereas Eevee or its evolutions were mysterious creatures. You can assume whatever you'd like, but if Game Freak were angling for your theory, they went about implying it in the wrong way.

Ho-Oh is a 12 foot high giant bird, I'll notice it before I notice a little fox like Eevee or any of its evolutions; especially considering the extreme rarity of Eevee in the wild. In fact, there aren't any in the modern Pokemon world as of now.

 

[Silktree]

If I'm not mistaken, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Flareon ARE water, lightning, and fire.

No, they're not; those are just their types. The legend clarifies that the beats were born of the lightning that struck the tower, the fire that raged for three days, and the rain that put it out. Reconciling that fact with your theory is done by shrugging it off as a coincidence.

For example, not all of Mewtwo's dex entries mention Mew as the source of his DNA.

Not a single entry refers to Mewtwo's origin as unknown; either Mew is directly mentioned, or it isn't implied that Mewtwo used to be a different Pokémon. The point is moot because the Cinnabar Mansion diary entries spilled the beans on the connection from the very start.

Get back to me if you have a breakthrough.

I will, and please get back to me if you find anything incriminating about the Eeveelutions.

Ho-Oh is a 12 foot high giant bird, I'll notice it before I notice a little fox like Eevee or any of its evolutions; especially considering the extreme rarity of Eevee in the wild. In fact, there aren't any in the modern Pokemon world as of now.

The fact the creatures are referred to as "unnamed" strongly implies that they were noticed, albeit not identified.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

No, they're not; those are just their types. The legend clarifies that the beats were born of the lightning that struck the tower, the fire that raged for three days, and the rain that put it out. Reconciling that fact with your theory is done by shrugging it off as a coincidence.

*Answering what I think needs to be answered*

You saying they were "BORN" out of lightning, fire, and water the way you are is ignoring the fact that they are creatures that were "REINCARNATED". You make it sound as if they were born of the elements themselves, which they're clearly not.

 

[Silktree]

You saying they were "BORN" out of lightning, fire, and water the way you are is ignoring the fact that they are creatures that were "REINCARNATED". You make it sound as if they were born of the elements themselves, which they're clearly not.

I was quoting the game text. The fact of the matter is that that the Sages' dialogue is an addition to that book, clarifying that the beasts were reborn rather than born. The point remains that Ho-Oh gave them their types from the elements associated with their death.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

I was quoting the game text. The fact of the matter is that that the Sages' dialogue is an addition to that book, clarifying that the beasts were reborn rather than born. The point remains that Ho-Oh gave them their types from the elements associated with their death.

The Sages claim that Ho-Oh gave them their types but at the same time had no clue what the "nameless" Pokemon were?

 

[Silktree]

The Sages claim that Ho-Oh gave them their types but at the same time had no clue what the "nameless" Pokemon were?

The Sages are telling a story passed down by their predecessors, who apparently did see the Pokémon prior to their resurrection. They clearly had reason to believe that the types originated from the elements as opposed to the Pokémon, and that this was made possible by Ho-Oh's powers. If the original Pokémon haven't been seen in Johto since that fateful day (possibly having become extinct), the Sages have no reason to know their names.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

The Sages are telling a story passed down by their predecessors, who apparently did see the Pokémon prior to their resurrection. They clearly had reason to believe that the types originated from the elements as opposed to the Pokémon, and that this was made possible by Ho-Oh's powers.

Regardless, they didn't know what Pokemon they were and therefore it could all just be a big coincidence. Which wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Silktree]

Regardless, they didn't know what Pokemon they were and therefore it could all just be a big coincidence. Which wouldn't surprise me.

Which brings me back to my point: You're shrugging off the references to support a theory that is based simply on matching the types.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

Which brings me back to my point: You're shrugging off the references to support a theory that is based simply on matching the types.

Not very much in Pokemon is concrete, especially things related to the legendaries. There is always room for speculation, I merely support my own theories. You do a great job ignoring the possibilities yourself (i.e. The high prevalence of the Eeveelutions in Ecruteck City and there use by the Sages).

 

[Silktree]

You do a great job ignoring the possibilities yourself (i.e. The high prevalence of the Eeveelutions in Ecruteck City and there use by the Sages).

How did I ignore that? I said that it is the only real hint, but is undermined by the fact that the Sages refer to the Pokémon as unnamed, which would be ridiculously ironic if they were the Eeveelutions they know so well. As for the Kimono Girls, the fact that they also train Espeon and Umbreon goes against the theory.

Simply put, if the Eeveelutions are so prevalent in Ecruteak City, any connection they might have to the beasts should have dawned on the residents a long time ago.

 

[SquirtleMan493]

How did I ignore that? I said that it is the only real hint, but is undermined by the fact that the Sages referred to the Pokémon as unnamed, which would be ridiculously ironic if they were the Eeveelutions. As for the Kimono Girls, the fact that they also train Espeon and Umbreon goes against the theory.

Simply put, if the Eeveelutions are so prevalent in Ecruteak City, any connection they might have to the beasts should have dawned on the residents a long time ago.

Okay, I knew it'd come up eventually: citing Espeon and Umbreon as a counter argument here is like saying Lance isn't a Dragon type trainer for using Aerodactyl and Charizard. Still, the way I see it, the Pokemon were unnamed in the legend passed down by the sages, but I see no reason the connection to the Eeveelutions couldn't be made in recent times. Hell, we as the fans made a connection. Even if the Eeveelutions weren't the Pokemon who were reincarnated by Ho-Oh, residents of Ecruteak seem to think so.

 

[Silktree]

Even if the Eeveelutions weren't the Pokemon who were reincarnated by Ho-Oh, residents of Ecruteak seem to think so.

And your proof or supporting evidence of this is...? The Sages obviously don't think that, and the Kimono Girls never mention the beasts in any of the games.