Were we too hard on Iris?

[Mikuri]

Iris is the worst female lead this show has ever had. Although it is hard to think of one good thing to come out of Best Wishes, Iris stands out as the one true representation of the writers' unwillingness to write a coherent story. While I was never a fan of her personality, I won't dive into that aspect of her character because that's subjective, but we can be objective when discussing the writing surrounding her.

One thing that amazes me in this fandom is how people often comment that certain characters had so much potential and the writers wasted it. That, too me, is bullshit. Iris never had any potential; she was doomed the moment she was introduced. Just compare the first episode of the Diamond & Pearl series, in which Ash appears for like two minutes as the entire episode revolves around Dawn, and the first episode of Best Wishes, in which Iris appears for two minutes. This is very telling.

Now take a minute to appreciate the viability of Iris's goal of becoming a Dragon Master in a region that has only three Dragon-type families (that's excluding Legendary Pokémon). Then let's all remind ourselves that Iris often ignored her Axew and instead used Excadrill and Emolga for most of her battles. Also, let's not forget how the writers dropped the Axew-dreams-of-fully-evolving plot because apparently that ugly monstrosity was marketable?

Iris had all things working against her, and on their attempt of finding a way to redeem the girl the writers screwed her even more by handing her cheap undeserved battle victories, a fully-evolved pseudo-Legendary Pokémon, overpowered moves for her weak underdeveloped Axew, and superhuman abilities because why the hell not?

Best Wishes was terrible in general, and I didn't like Cilan too much. At first I was glad to have a male character with a flamboyant personality as part of the main cast, but then I noticed that Cilan had so many hobbies and at the same time he was a blank page the writers could scribble over. They would add pointless new interests for him not because they thought it would suit him, but because it was easier to write him that way. Luke is filming a movie? Cilan is a Movie Connoisseur! A Pokémon is missing? Cilan is a Detective Connoisseur! The twerps have to rely on public transportation? Cilan is a Metro Connoisseur!

Even with these flaws, Cilan still managed to suck less than Iris because the writers didn't take him seriously. He was afraid of Purrloin because reasons, while Iris was afraid of Ice types because they're strong against Dragon types and because the elder of her cute little village didn't like the cold. Cilan was your average Joe while Iris was this promising young Trainer who was being prepared to one day replace Drayden.

Is the audience feeling that Iris is weak? Let's say she won 100 battles as a child, and let's make her win this tournament for no good reason, and let's also have Cynthia compliment her on her skills. The writers were desperate to make Iris look like a decent Trainer, but all this amounted to nothing when she had no good writing behind her, when it took her no effort to get the things she got on her journey, when she was lacking build-up moments to make her eventual success believable.

I could bring up Iris's dynamics with her rival Georgia, I could rant about a few plot points that were abandoned for her convenience (such as Emolga's disobedience), and I could search for old posts I left on threads discussing Iris, but this is long enough as it is. Iris was a terrible character, a chore to sit through, and her unpopularity is the only thing she rightfully earned.

 

[EscLucy]

Why does she have a excadrill and emolga if she training to be a dragon master?

Well when she was younger she was friends with a lot of Pokemon which is one of the traits you need to be a Dragon Master. She was good friends with a Drilbur and decided to catch it and then evolved it. She caught it because they were good friends which is how Ash really chooses which Pokemon he catches. I think its quite nice, gives it variety. However, what annoys me is that she didn't really pursue her goal to be a Dragon Master.

Just compare the first episode of the Diamond & Pearl series, in which Ash appears for like two minutes as the entire episode revolves around Dawn, and the first episode of Best Wishes, in which Iris appears for two minutes. This is very telling.

And yes I noticed that as well, really good point to consider.

Cilan is a Metro Connoisseur!

I liked Cilan being a Metro Connoisseur. I enjoyed those stamp collecting episodes, they were really good filler episodes.

 

[ii kanji]

I have no strong opinion on Iris but I do find it interesting that most of you vehemently feel that race has nothing to do with her unpopularity... I can see that there are many other excellent reasons not to like her but I also suspect that being brown-skinned is a factor (however small). If she fit the pretty white girl trope with the same flaws, would she have been more rated?

[/devil's advocate]

 

[Huikyeong]

I cannot reply directly to posts on my phone but don’t forget cilan was a fishing connoisseur as well

 

[Hidden Mew]

I have no strong opinion on Iris but I do find it interesting that most of you vehemently feel that race has nothing to do with her unpopularity... I can see that there are many other excellent reasons not to like her but I also suspect that being brown-skinned is a factor (however small). If she fit the pretty white girl trope with the same flaws, would she have been more rated?

[/devil's advocate]

Honestly, I really can't see Iris having a significantly better reception if she was white. I can understand thinking that her skin color could have been even a small factor since people can be racist in surprising ways, but I really don't think that was the case here. If being brown-skinned was a factor, wouldn't Brock, Kiawe and Mallow get a lot of negative complaints too? A lot of fans were tired of Brock by DP, but that was because he had been around for a long time and had nothing to do with his skin color. He's still generally well received among fans and plenty of people were happy to see both Misty and Brock return in SM. Kiawe seems to be one of the more well-received SM characters, at least based on what I've seen, while Mallow is primarily just considered boring. None of these characters resulted in any kind of backlash compared to Iris, which does make the argument harder for me to believe that skin color was a factor for the complaints against Iris. The only complaint about her design that I remember hearing about was her hair.

Even if she had a different design, I really wouldn't have felt any different about her. She still would have had the same annoying personality, same terrible writing, same forced/undeserved victories and same accomplishments handed to her on a silver plate. Nothing about Iris would have changed if she had white skin. Coming right after DP much more of a bigger factor against Iris, as well as BW as a whole for that matter. I don't think that the reception towards Iris would have been significantly better if we got something like BW after AG. A seemingly new trainer getting on Ash's case after he could have become a Frontier Brain still would have been annoying, but seeing how they had handled other female leads much more effectively in both AG and DP didn't help make the problems with Iris any easier to deal with.

I also don't think it helped that Iris really didn't have a reason to join up with Ash. This is fairly minor compared to all of the other problems surrounding her character, but it is something that felt much more apparent to me when rewatching BW than when I watched it as it was airing. She doesn't have a reason to help Ash go through the Unova region. She just tags along as the token female lead. It's really jarring, especially when they don't have a noteworthy friendship. She'll support him during Gym battles, but it's more of a generic cheering from the sideline rather than some genuine connection if that makes any sense.

As far as Cilan goes, he does have a lot of problems too. I didn't have a problem with the different hobbies he got during the series since it was usually just for filler episodes. However, in retrospect, it was a sign that they weren't really sure what to do with Cilan's actual goal either. It was especially telling that his Evaluation Time became a running gag over the course of the series when that was supposed to be his job as a Pokemon Connoisseur. As sudden as both his and Iris' departures at the end of the series were, at least Iris's reason for leaving did kind of connect to her goal. Cilan just wanted to go to a fishing Contest in Hoenn, which was just sad. I'm also finding that Cilan talking about recipes and other cooking terms is kind of annoying. I know that it's part of his character, but it does get a bit annoying to hear him say things like "What a wonderful recipe" frequently. Writing wise, Cilan isn't a huge improvement over Iris. He's just usually more fun and likable because the writers didn't treat him as a super special gifted trainer despite not battling too often like they did with Iris. Having a more believable friendship with Ash, as well as a reason as to why he'd want to travel with Ash, probably helped a bit too.

 

[ii kanji]

Honestly, I really can't see Iris having a significantly better reception if she was white. I can understand thinking that her skin color could have been even a small factor since people can be racist in surprising ways, but I really don't think that was the case here. If being brown-skinned was a factor, wouldn't Brock, Kiawe and Mallow get a lot of negative complaints too? A lot of fans were tired of Brock by DP, but that was because he had been around for a long time and had nothing to do with his skin color. He's still generally well received among fans and plenty of people were happy to see both Misty and Brock return in SM. Kiawe seems to be one of the more well-received SM characters, at least based on what I've seen, while Mallow is primarily just considered boring. None of these characters resulted in any kind of backlash compared to Iris, which does make the argument harder for me to believe that skin color was a factor for the complaints against Iris. The only complaint about her design that I remember hearing about was her hair.

Let's be honest here - we are all (at least) a bit racist in a variety of ways. It is just a part of the mindset of our societies to make assumptions based on superficial things. As I said, I've no doubt that the main reasons the vast majority dislike her are not this, but I'm 100% sure that it plays a role. Based on my own experiences, I'd say it is naive to think it hasn't at all.

I don't have any evidence, but as a brown woman I feel men of colour have a slightly less bad press (Takeshi, Kaki) and if you're "hot" (Mao), people tend to give you more a free pass.

Also in this day and age, very few people in the online Pokeani fandom are kamikaze enough to admit that they don't like people of colour/are racist in whatever way, so I don't trust it not being openly cited as a reason to say it isn't there...

 

[Islander Princess]

I personally like Iris as a character. I do agree that she was pretty badly handled by the writers, which is really unfortunate. She did sometimes get on my nerves with the "what a kid" comments, but in all honesty, most of the later female companions (Dawn, Iris, and Serena, most notably) have really annoyed me on some level for different reasons.

I thought Iris had a really interesting backstory when they finally got around to it. It just took so long, they kind of just dropped it and never expanded upon it, and shipped her off the show like it was nothing. I agree with everyone who believes Iris was molded in such a way to be a Misty 2.0, but the dynamic with Ash just wasn't the same (he never really argued back with her...sometimes he'd clap back with like one comment but that was it), her fear of ice types felt a little forced (Misty being scared of bug types make sense because...bugs. I know the ice type fear was because dragons are weak to them but it felt contrived). The attempt was super half-hearted and it showed.

Even though I can easily find aspects I enjoyed, BW overall was pretty badly handled by the writers. Iris is no exception. I have found quite a few fan written stories where her portrayal is really great and expand her personality, goals, etc. They do a far better job than the anime writers, honestly.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Let's be honest here - we are all (at least) a bit racist in a variety of ways. It is just a part of the mindset of our societies to make assumptions based on superficial things. As I said, I've no doubt that the main reasons the vast majority dislike her are not this, but I'm 100% sure that it plays a role. Based on my own experiences, I'd say it is naive to think it hasn't at all.

I don't have any evidence, but as a brown woman I feel men of colour have a slightly less bad press (Takeshi, Kaki) and if you're "hot" (Mao), people tend to give you more a free pass.

Also in this day and age, very few people in the online Pokeani fandom are kamikaze enough to admit that they don't like people of colour/are racist in whatever way, so I don't trust it not being openly cited as a reason to say it isn't there...

That is a valid point. I haven't had the same kind of experiences you might have had on this topic, so that would affect how I see the issue of Iris' skin color. Perhaps it is naive of me to think that it wouldn't have any role in her character's backlash, but it's just hard for me to really see as even a small factor that given all of the issues surrounding her character and I can't see her being better received if she did have a lighter skin color. For all I know, it could be more of a subconscious or unconscious reaction for some people, but there is no chance that I would feel differently about Iris if she had a different design.

The notion that men of color have slightly less bad press makes sense from what I've seen and heard from other people on the subject, but does Mallow get more of a free pass? I guess she is more traditionally attractive than Iris, but I don't see a lot of fanfare for her. She doesn't get anywhere near the amount of hate Iris gets, but she doesn't get much love either. She's just there.

 

[ii kanji]

does Mallow get more of a free pass?

Maybe that wasn't the best wording for it (I don't think anyone really forgives the fact she hasn't done very much!) but my impression was that a lot of people were really drawn to her at the beginning because they liked her character design. Honestly, I didn't give it that much thought at the time and it may be totally irrelevant to the subject at hand so I'll leave it at that!

Anyway, nice talking dude - given how quickly these kind of discussions can descend into complete madness, I am astounded & impressed at your open-mindedness

 

[Likeitornot.]

Yeah, in ways I do. I don't think she was quite as obnoxious as most people believed she was (though I didn't like her dub voice all that much), and one of my favourite storylines was the one involving her and her Excadrill; I remember in that episode when she was trying to talk to Excadrill who had clammed up at night and her voice was breaking, there was just such raw emotion which really touched my heart. In many ways, Iris was simply a victim of cavalier writing but she had a vibrant personality which I personally felt was not "Misty 2.0" - she was her own character, she had her own backstory and struggles that she approached in her own manner.

I would also agree with ii kanji, while I don't consider anyone who dislikes Iris prima facie to do it out of racist views, there definitely can be a racial element and we live in a world where many of us hold implicit biases without even realising it. There were some very obvious racist reactions in the pokemon fandom as a whole (I don't remember seeing any on this forum), such as stereotypical jokes made at her character, fanart of her as Langley's slave, whitewashed art, etc which hopefully don't reflect the majority of the fandom and were called out by others but there can be also subconscious elements. This is not to say anyone who points out flaws is a racist but I don't think it's fair to erase that element, it's important to acknowledge they may exist. Anyways, ii kanji definitely worded it out better than I ever could and they have a better insight on this. I don't happen to have experienced these things, so I hope I haven't stepped out of line on talking about them.

 

[Karamazov]

As a fan of the anime, I'd say that Iris is underappreciated. I think everyone knows my opinion on the matter, so I won't write massive tl;drs and get into internet fights over it, because this isn't 2010-era me. I'll just say that, while her character arc had a lot of flaws and could have been expanded upon more, I really liked Iris from a character standpoint, and found her arc to be very interesting. She's pretty nuanced if you look at the big picture; you can see how her backstory affects her in the present, especially when it comes to her relationships with other people. While she's not perfect, I feel like a lot of people aren't seeing the good, interesting aspects to her character.

As a member of this forum, I'd say that the hate was disproportionate and excessive. I've been a fly on the wall since the beginning of the BW era, and I've seen it all. The wars around BW made the section a horrible place to visit. And a lot of this came from the vehement hatred over Iris. (Which is saying something, because nearly every aspect of BW was being criticized.) To this day, we still have people ready to pounce on even the slightest mention of Iris, just to talk about how much they think she's the reincarnation of Satan. We had to make a subsection to deal with the vicious debates, and we had to revise the rules multiple times to deal with it. I think it's fine to criticize and complain about a character, an I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't exactly a a gold star user back then, either. But when things get that vicious, that hostile, and that uncomfortable, you know that the hatred's gone too far.

I guess my point is, whether Iris deserved hate or not (she did - every character does), the amount of hate she got was unnecessarily extreme. I also feel like, while Iris is very flawed, some people don't recognize that her character has a lot of value. Not enough value to start a civil war, of course.

 

[SammyW27]

I have no strong opinion on Iris but I do find it interesting that most of you vehemently feel that race has nothing to do with her unpopularity... I can see that there are many other excellent reasons not to like her but I also suspect that being brown-skinned is a factor (however small). If she fit the pretty white girl trope with the same flaws, would she have been more rated?

[/devil's advocate]

Naw. Bad story is still bad, no matter the color of a main character's skin.

 

[EscLucy]

As a fan of the anime, I'd say that Iris is underappreciated. I think everyone knows my opinion on the matter, so I won't write massive tl;drs and get into internet fights over it, because this isn't 2010-era me. I'll just say that, while her character arc had a lot of flaws and could have been expanded upon more, I really liked Iris from a character standpoint, and found her arc to be very interesting. She's pretty nuanced if you look at the big picture; you can see how her backstory affects her in the present, especially when it comes to her relationships with other people. While she's not perfect, I feel like a lot of people aren't seeing the good, interesting aspects to her character.

As a member of this forum, I'd say that the hate was disproportionate and excessive. I've been a fly on the wall since the beginning of the BW era, and I've seen it all. The wars around BW made the section a horrible place to visit. And a lot of this came from the vehement hatred over Iris. (Which is saying something, because nearly every aspect of BW was being criticized.) To this day, we still have people ready to pounce on even the slightest mention of Iris, just to talk about how much they think she's the reincarnation of Satan. We had to make a subsection to deal with the vicious debates, and we had to revise the rules multiple times to deal with it. I think it's fine to criticize and complain about a character, an I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't exactly a a gold star user back then, either. But when things get that vicious, that hostile, and that uncomfortable, you know that the hatred's gone too far.

I guess my point is, whether Iris deserved hate or not (she did - every character does), the amount of hate she got was unnecessarily extreme. I also feel like, while Iris is very flawed, some people don't recognize that her character has a lot of value. Not enough value to start a civil war, of course.

Whilst, I agree with you that the hate was too extreme, I think that the anime producers should be blamed for making such an awful character without planning it properly. Her character development was poor - she didn't get to go through her Dragon Master storyline, the Drayden storyline was too late and she didn't get to finally face Ash. She was too Misty 2.0. She contributed very little to the anime and I think that people should be hard on her AND the anime producers. However, I reiterate, the abuse she got from viewers was too much but understandable.

 

[HiroHunter]

I more blame the writers who had not idea what they where going to do with her.

 

[Karamazov]

Whilst, I agree with you that the hate was too extreme, I think that the anime producers should be blamed for making such an awful character without planning it properly. Her character development was poor - she didn't get to go through her Dragon Master storyline, the Drayden storyline was too late and she didn't get to finally face Ash. She was too Misty 2.0. She contributed very little to the anime and I think that people should be hard on her AND the anime producers. However, I reiterate, the abuse she got from viewers was too much but understandable.

That's pretty much what I was saying - there's a lot of valid criticism for Iris. I never said that the producers and writers shouldn't be blamed. My point was that she was still underappreciated, and the hate around her was extreme. Heck, people still make unnecessary jabs at her to show much how much they dislike her, even though she wasn't been relevant for like five years.

 

[EscLucy]

That's pretty much what I was saying - there's a lot of valid criticism for Iris. I never said that the producers and writers shouldn't be blamed. My point was that she was still underappreciated, and the hate around her was extreme. Heck, people still make unnecessary jabs at her to show much how much they dislike her, even though she wasn't been relevant for like five years.

I think we should blame the producers. It's not Iris' fault, it is the producers rushing the anime. The DP anime felt so cleverly planned and I really enjoyed it, it's my favourite series. As regular anime watchers which most people in here that contribute are, if there isn't sufficient character development/ something annoying etc. we will bash them for that. Iris' roasting has been extreme because of the lack of it. So I think whilst it's too much and too extreme, Iris definitely deserves a lot of criticism and that is why some underappreciate her because the people that like her, the same with any other character, are in the minority.

 

[Karamazov]

I think we should blame the producers. It's not Iris' fault, it is the producers rushing the anime.

I never said otherwise. But I agree, obviously the people involved with her development are at "fault." Though when you're in a discussion on an anime board, you're going to be looking at the character, rather than the mechanics behind the scenes. Look at this thread - people are saying "Iris was bad because she did this," or "Iris was good because she said that." Whether you blame the producers or not, it's essentially the same thing as blaming the character. It doesn't matter if you place blame on one or the other, because as a fictional character, Iris is an extension of them.

Iris definitely deserves a lot of criticism and that is why some underappreciate her because the people that like her, the same with any other character, are in the minority.

And I agree, she does deserve criticism. I see why liking her is an unpopular opinion. I just think people also unfairly ignore her good qualities, instead. And while I think it's fine for people to be subjective and focus on what they want to talk about, the hate became so extreme and persistent that it turned the anime section into a war zone. And the wars are the end result of hate going too far.

In any case, it's pretty clear that we both agree that a) Iris deserves hate and criticism, and b) the hate she received was disproportionate to what she deserved. I'm going to stop discussing here because I feel like I already made my point, and I worry that things could veer into user-blaming/shaming if it goes on too long. But I'm up for PMs if you (or anyone else) wants to continue this privately.

 

[EscLucy]

Well you might have seen the section as a 'war zone' around the time of BW but I think the section has really come a long way, this thread isn't that heated and I think that is good.

Yes I agree with you and it took a long time to get to that conclusion haha

 

[HiroHunter]

What I want to know what made people hate Iris?

 

[Karamazov]

Well you might have seen the section as a 'war zone' around the time of BW but I think the section has really come a long way, this thread isn't that heated and I think that is good.

Yeah. I gotta say that the section's a breath of fresh air compared to the early days. In no small part due to some responsible mods and a good community. (Though I still have flashbacks to the Battle at Donomite Ridge.)