My Big Problem with the Pokémon Anime - An Essay and a Rant

[Almonds]

I'm not so sure about that. I don't know how children feel about Ash, but most of the negative light around him that I've seen are from people who are well outside of the target demographic. Ash and Pikachu are pretty much a packaged set and he's been the lead for twenty years. He's far too recognizable and iconic, at least as far as the anime is concerned, for them to consider replacing him now and that ship sailed ages ago anyway.

Well, the thing is, the children from now on are the kids of the people who grew up with the 90s anime, so idk - their parents are likely going to tell them about how Ash never won a league (or at least, recount that time when Ash lost at the first league), so we can't really say the negative light isn't present in the target demographic. I've said this a lot of times before, but young kids like to see their heroes win and triumph over all. They believe their heroes can do anything, and it delivers a satisfaction - all the more if it is someone they can relate to. It's similar to how kids are drawn to Superheroes who defeat evil and bring world peace and stuff - all that is possible because they win. If Superman and Batman kept losing every major battle at the end of every season... idk?

 

[Hidden Mew]

Well, the thing is, the children from now on are the kids of the people who grew up with the 90s anime, so idk - their parents are likely going to tell them about how Ash never won a league (or at least, recount that time when Ash lost at the first league), so we can't really say the negative light isn't present in the target demographic. I've said this a lot of times before, but young kids like to see their heroes win and triumph over all. They believe their heroes can do anything, and it delivers a satisfaction - all the more if it is someone they can relate to. It's similar to how kids are drawn to Superheroes who defeat evil and bring world peace and stuff - all that is possible because they win. If Superman and Batman kept losing every major battle at the end of every season... idk?

Well, it's hard to say how many parents are talking about their kids about Ash losing Leagues and how much that really affects kids. When I was in the target audience, I don't remember having a problem with Ash losing the Indigo League. I had more of a reaction to him losing the Johto League, but that was because I accidentally read spoilers about it well before it had aired in the U.S., so that was why it bothered me. Kids watching the show may want Ash to win, but I'm not sure if that's the main draw for them. When I was first getting into the show, I was just looking for fun Pokemon adventures and seeing the Pokemon in animated form, which is still basically true for me right now. I still liked the human characters and wanted to see their journey. but I'm not sure how many people wanted to just see Ash win a League back then compared to just wanted fun Pokemon adventures/

And the comparison to Batman and Superman really doesn't work. I understand the point on how kids relate to superheroes and want to see them win in the end, but Batman and Superman basically have to win major battles. Major battles for them usually involve saving the world, the galaxy and countless lives. Despite all of the complaints about Ash losing Leagues, he does not absolutely have to do that. Nothing major is on the line for him, no one is kidnapped unless he wins the tournament and the world isn't destroyed if Ash doesn't receive a tournament trophy. That's why other protagonists/heroes win when it counts. Yugi would often win because something big was on the line, like saving his friends and the same can be said for pretty much all of the other protagonists in the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise too. Ash is the lead character, but he is no superhero and I doubt anyone would put him on the same level as one.

Honestly, showing that Ash loses but still keeps on trying can easily be seen as inspirational for kids too. Sure, winning a League is all well and good, but it's important for kids to know that failure isn't the end of the world and that they can keep on trying despite losing. I'm not sure if that's what they're going for with Ash losing, but it's a nice thought at least and it's not something that shows often tackle either.

 

[Daren]

I thought that the ratings were doing fine for SM. I've heard that it still gets to the Top 10 rated shows every week, but I could be mistaken.

What I've read is that each new series has had a ratings boost at the beginning (probably new kids tuning in and some older fans checking briefly out of curiosity) but it peters out, and has always done worse than the previous one--Johto did worse than Kanto, AG did worse than Johto, and so on.
Sun Moon, from what I've read, has followed the trend so far.

I'm not so sure about that. I don't know how children feel about Ash, but most of the negative light around him that I've seen are from people who are well outside of the target demographic. Ash and Pikachu are pretty much a packaged set and he's been the lead for twenty years. He's far too recognizable and iconic, at least as far as the anime is concerned, for them to consider replacing him now and that ship sailed ages ago anyway.

My thoughts are basically that:
*New kids tuning in for the first time mostly won't care if it's Ash or someone new.
*Slightly older kids--say, those that started watching at the beginning of XY and are still watching--might be unhappy if he's replaced, might not.
*Older fans tend to find his perpetual inability to develop or get closer to his goal annoying.

I just see no reason except from intertia to keep him around if they're not going to advance his storyline even an inch. If the show was entirely episodic it would be one thing, but one where the protagonist has a set goal with a set conclusion than spends the entire run half step ahead of where he started? And when he resets every once in a while to "just barely better than in episode 1"? It'd be better to wrap him up and use a new protagonist every series if they want an inept newbie trainer to start each series.

I guess, in summary...no character deserves to be used this poorly.

 

[Hidden Mew]

My thoughts are basically that:
*New kids tuning in for the first time mostly won't care if it's Ash or someone new.
*Slightly older kids--say, those that started watching at the beginning of XY and are still watching--might be unhappy if he's replaced, might not.
*Older fans tend to find his perpetual inability to develop or get closer to his goal annoying.

I just see no reason except from intertia to keep him around if they're not going to advance his storyline even an inch. If the show was entirely episodic it would be one thing, but one where the protagonist has a set goal with a set conclusion than spends the entire run half step ahead of where he started? And when he resets every once in a while to "just barely better than in episode 1"? It'd be better to wrap him up and use a new protagonist every series if they want an inept newbie trainer to start each series.

I guess, in summary...no character deserves to be used this poorly.

New kids might not care that much, but I could see it causing more of a reaction from slightly older kids and long time fans. There are plenty of long time fans that would want Ash to be replaced, but there are also plenty of long time fans that wouldn't want to see him gone either. A part of me thinks it would be something akin to the reactions of Misty being replaced back in the day. There would be fans fine/happy about it, but then there would be the big fans who would cite it as a reason for them to drop the show and thus we'd get huge arguments from both sides most likely.

They keep Ash around because of his marketability. Writing in the anime has always been secondary at best compared to marketing new products and they have been able to use Ash and Pikachu as means to promote the games for twenty years. Ash has a set goal, but not really a set conclusion. They still haven't even explained what a Pokemon Master is after all this time. I wouldn't say that when he resets, he's barely better than in episode one. Aside from BW, Ash hasn't really come off being regressed that much to me.

I agree that getting a new protagonist every series would have been a good idea if they wanted a newbie trainer to start out each series, although again Ash doesn't really come off as a rookie in most of the series after the original one. However, it's just far too late for them to consider doing anything as drastic as replacing Ash. It might have worked if they did it back in Johto or AG, but it's been twenty years. I can understand why people have problems with Ash staying around and to be honest, I wouldn't lose any sleep if he did get replaced, but I just find the entire issue kind of moot at this point given how long the show has been going on. For better or for worse, Ash is going to continue being the main lead of the anime. They made their decision to keep him around ages ago and it's far too late to change their minds now.

 

[SinnohEevee]

1. We will still have the same discussion 20 years from now.

2. As long as it's Pokémon, the anime will still be watched, even if they give us a Je X 10 where Ash loses in the preliminary rounds of the League.

3. Ash is NEVER going to win a League maybe until the show ends, and that may happen 50 years from now.

4. AmourShipping is most likely dead. Ash will remain a 10-year old for 20 more years at least. By that time, none of the kids who will be watching the show will even know how to Serena is. She will fade away like Misty.

5. Greninja will probably never come back since as how he was written off of the show.

6. Older fans mean sqat for the show.

7. The Trio is annoying.

8. There are many incompetents running Pokémon. Pikachu, the mascot, isn't even in the Unova Pokédex and isn't obtainable in BW.

 

[Hidden Mew]

3. Ash is NEVER going to win a League maybe until the show ends, and that may happen 50 years from now.

And I honestly don't see why that's such a big problem. It's already been twenty years and he hasn't won a League, or at least one that fans care about, so what does it matter if he never wins one? People tend to act like it's such a travesty that Ash hasn't won a League or that he's still around and I can understand those feelings to an extent, but at the same time, it's also such a nonissue to me when it's something that the anime, for better or for worse, can't change, at least in regards to replacing Ash.

4. AmourShipping is most likely dead. Ash will remain a 10-year old for 20 more years at least. By that time, none of the kids who will be watching the show will even know how to Serena is. She will fade away like Misty.

That won't stop any long time fan from bringing up Serena though. Besides that, they can't really do much more with that pairing beyond a time skip with Ash and Serena married, which wouldn't really work with the show.

5. Greninja will probably never come back since as how he was written off of the show.

I find that highly unlikely. Greninja is far too popular for them to write out of the show for good. If they can bring back Charizard multiple times, including actually giving it back to Ash despite doing nothing noteworthy afterwards in BW, then they can find some way to give Greninja back to Ash. I don't know when or how that could happen, but I wouldn't write it off as never coming back.

7. The Trio is annoying.

That's your opinion, which you're entitled to, but it isn't a fact.

8. There are many incompetents running Pokémon. Pikachu, the mascot, isn't even in the Unova Pokédex and isn't obtainable in BW.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the anime, but that wasn't the result of incompetence. They made a big deal about how you could only capture new Pokemon during the storyline in B/W and not including popular Pokemon like Pikachu in Unova was a means to get people more excited/interested in using the new Pokemon. Granted, I think that backfired on them since they've pretty much had to reassure fans for all of the games after B/W that older Pokemon do exist within the game.

 

[Galactic_V]

Reading some of the previous post and thinking for myself of why OLM never lets Satoshi wins a league, I came to a thought that's not status-quo: Imagine, they used to have 4 years to play a whole region before moving to the next one, now it's three. If there's indeed a Champion's League or something major after the winner, wouldn't they need more time? Or wouldn't the league happen way earlier than usual?
In years we had 2 years only of gyms, both were very rushed and problematic. Nowadays I'd expect OLM did that so they could do something important afterwards, but that didn't occur.

So, after this little writing, my final guess is that, disregarding the status quo completely, OLM's not letting Satoshi win mostly due to time. (And probably to give him a last minute character development, even if that's old by now)

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't know if having only three years to work with for each series would play that much of a factor into it. They obviously would have less time to explore the region with three years as opposed to four, but it's not like three years is too short for them to tell a complete story either. They could just have the League a bit earlier and then go into a Champion League if they wanted to do so afterwards. If they started the League around late spring/early summer, they could easily have enough time for a Champion League before they have to move to another region/series. It might be kind of tricky, but I think it would be plausible enough, so I doubt that the length of the series are a huge factor for this issue.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

3. Ash is NEVER going to win a League maybe until the show ends, and that may happen 50 years from now.

I'm expecting him to win it in the next league or the one after that. He get better ranks in every league except Isshu and they most likely won't stop his progress for several leagues.

. AmourShipping is most likely dead. Ash will remain a 10-year old for 20 more years at least. By that time, none of the kids who will be watching the show will even know how to Serena is. She will fade away like Misty.

Well, there will be reruns. And possible remakes...

6. Older fans mean sqat for the show.

They are horrible people, though.

5. Greninja will probably never come back since as how he was written off of the show.

His chances to come back is extremely high considering how popular he is, especially compared to most of Satoshi's old pokemon.

 

[Mew2]

Assuming there turns out to be a League in the Sun/Moon animé, I would not be all that surprised if Ash became the first Alola Champion. To show that he still has a ways to go, he could lose to the next challenger and then move on to the next League.

 

[Lyrebird]

1. We will still have the same discussion 20 years from now.

2. As long as it's Pokémon, the anime will still be watched, even if they give us a Je X 10 where Ash loses in the preliminary rounds of the League.

3. Ash is NEVER going to win a League maybe until the show ends, and that may happen 50 years from now.

4. AmourShipping is most likely dead. Ash will remain a 10-year old for 20 more years at least. By that time, none of the kids who will be watching the show will even know how to Serena is. She will fade away like Misty.

5. Greninja will probably never come back since as how he was written off of the show.

6. Older fans mean sqat for the show.

7. The Trio is annoying.

8. There are many incompetents running Pokémon. Pikachu, the mascot, isn't even in the Unova Pokédex and isn't obtainable in BW.

1. Doubt it

2. Debatable

3. You never know

4. Don't think the target audience is focused on romance compared to older fans who watch it

5. You never know

6. Not their audience

7. Subjective

8. So? It is just a show.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I'm expecting him to win it in the next league or the one after that. He get better ranks in every league except Isshu and they most likely won't stop his progress for several leagues.

Well, there will be reruns. And possible remakes...

They are horrible people, though.

His chances to come back is extremely high considering how popular he is, especially compared to most of Satoshi's old pokemon.

They already stop/reversed his progress in previous Leagues, and they could do t again. The show survived.

Kanto - Top 16
(Orange, not that it matters) - Champion
Johto - Top 8
Hoenn - Top 8
Sinnoh - Top 4
Unova - Top 8
Kalos - Runner Up

Ash's result was the same in both Johto and Hoenn.
They clearly wrote a character with Legendaries to make him lose in Sinnoh.
They regressed him in Unova.

It seems they believe him winning will end the show, and they and Game Freak surely don't want it to end, so Ash will continue losing.
Plus, there's not much continuity in the show.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

Orange, not that it matters) - Champion

Not really matters, as you said.

Unova - Top 8

Already said it.

Ash's result was the same in both Johto and Hoenn.

In Hoenn he's defeated by the champion.

They regressed him in Unova.

An exception, not a rule.

It seems they believe him winning will end the show, and they and Game Freak surely don't want it to end, so Ash will continue losing.

Virgil and Alain are champions and they're not treated as someone special. Alain is still treated as a rival and Satoshi's equal and traveling to become best. They already normalized the championship itself, so it won't cgange anything if Satoshi wins it in the future.

 

[ManUtd22]

Well, to me then I think that Ash should win in the BW, however still I usually want a different things from Pokemon. I love to see a new girls who want to achieve there dreams. I love the things that they made in Sun and Moon

 

[SinnohEevee]

Not really matters, as you said.

Already said it.

In Hoenn he's defeated by the champion.

An exception, not a rule.

Virgil and Alain are champions and they're not treated as someone special. Alain is still treated as a rival and Satoshi's equal and traveling to become best. They already normalized the championship itself, so it won't cgange anything if Satoshi wins it in the future.

So you don't think they can bring in another Tobias?

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

So you don't think they can bring in another Tobias?

I see no reason for them to do that. As I said league victory is not a big deal.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Ash's result was the same in both Johto and Hoenn.

He lost to Tyson in the Hoenn League, who turned out to win the whole thing, and he didn't rely heavily on his older Pokemon like he did during the Johto League. I'd say that still is a sign of improvement even with getting to the Top 8 twice in a row.

They clearly wrote a character with Legendaries to make him lose in Sinnoh.

And he was the only one was able to do any damage to Tobias. He defeated Darkrai and tied with Latios. That's still amazing and the fact that he lost shouldn't reduce what he was able to do.

They regressed him in Unova.

That was clearly an exception since they made him competent again for both XY and SM.

It seems they believe him winning will end the show, and they and Game Freak surely don't want it to end, so Ash will continue losing.

Now that's something I don't really understand. We know that winning a League isn't the same thing as being a Pokemon Master. We've seen other established characters win Leagues and they aren't considered masters. Even Alain was just able to go back to working under Professor Sycamore after the Kalos League and the Team Flare battles were over instead of going to face the Elite 4. Ash could easily win and continue onto another journey. They can make it even easier by not bringing up the Champion League concept again, which they haven't since BW if I recall correctly. I can see why they'd think that way when they have to keep Ash around and it's easier to justify that if he loses a League, but it isn't something that would completely break the show if he did win.

 

[SinnohEevee]

He lost to Tyson in the Hoenn League, who turned out to win the whole thing, and he didn't rely heavily on his older Pokemon like he did during the Johto League. I'd say that still is a sign of improvement even with getting to the Top 8 twice in a row.



And he was the only one was able to do any damage to Tobias. He defeated Darkrai and tied with Latios. That's still amazing and the fact that he lost shouldn't reduce what he was able to do.



That was clearly an exception since they made him competent again for both XY and SM.



Now that's something I don't really understand. We know that winning a League isn't the same thing as being a Pokemon Master. We've seen other established characters win Leagues and they aren't considered masters. Even Alain was just able to go back to working under Professor Sycamore after the Kalos League and the Team Flare battles were over instead of going to face the Elite 4. Ash could easily win and continue onto another journey. They can make it even easier by not bringing up the Champion League concept again, which they haven't since BW if I recall correctly. I can see why they'd think that way when they have to keep Ash around and it's easier to justify that if he loses a League, but it isn't something that would completely break the show if he did win.

You would think they would have realized that when Ash won the Orange League.
Ash can become Champion of Alola and still travel to explore new challenges. Also, Ash could be 110 and he would still be battling.

 

[_Dog]

Forgive for my late reply, but I have yet to respond to some of the responses I've been given. This is partly caused by personal life events. I hope to respond to a select amount of posts by Friday. Know that I have not forgotten this thread.

One thing I'll say right now however: the poll really speaks for itself.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The only thing I think of when I see the results is that people really preferred the melodramatic option. Seriously, who cares if Ash never becomes a Pokemon Master? It is not the end of the world if they just keep the show they way it is. If it bothers people that much, then they're just getting way too focus on a show aimed at children.