I'm honestly kind of bored of Sun & Moon right now...

[Shoutmon]

Ash hasn't mentioned anything about the next trials and grand trials since Hala battle.

 

[Hidden Mew]

And so, what's Ash's next destination?

Normally, Ash goes to challenge Gyms in order to reach the League. Does he still say he wants to become a Pokémon Master or they dropped that too?

Doesn't Ash introduce himself right before the intro and say that he wants to become a Pokemon Master? I'm also pretty sure it was brought up within the first two episodes, but I could be mistaken there.

 

[kantoskies]

I could be mis-remembering but....wasn't the general opinion of XY around here during its first year or so that it was the "poor man's DP" and "only a little better than BW"? Serena had like no development/storyline the first 40 episodes, many thought the Korrina arc was boring/showed how little chemistry the XY group had, Team Flare didn't show up in the main anime until XY094, and a lot of people (from what I remember) thought it was just "going through the motions", which to be fair it was. It wasn't really until about XY092 that things started to pick up plot-wise, and even then a lot of people complained that the beginning of the XYZ arc had too many fillers. Greninja, the Pokemon billed as having this "amazing and rare" connection with Ash was barely even a standout Pokemon for the first 90-ish episodes. Whereas Litten, who admittedly hasn't had much interaction with Ash as of yet, is already way, way, way more interesting and compelling as a Pokemon, simply because the writers are taking their time having Ash capture it while it builds up trust with him and his Pokemon.

Of course people are going to think XY was this crazy, action-packed series because 11/15 of the last episodes were climaxes of two big storylines, Ash's league and the Flare conflict. The first episode after the league ended was the beginning of the Flare cimax. Compare that to Best Wishes where the last ~20 episodes were pure 100% filler.

 

[Shadao]

Doesn't Ash introduce himself right before the intro and say that he wants to become a Pokemon Master? I'm also pretty sure it was brought up within the first two episodes, but I could be mistaken there.

He does, but the problem about Pokémon Master is that it's a vague term from the very beginning. At the start of the original series, you would be lead to believe that being a Master means catch all 150 Pokémon until Episode 5, where Ash sees the League Poster and gets the idea of going to Gym Battles. After that, the catch 'em all aspect gradually got dropped out in favor of the Badge Quest, which became the de facto status quo for the next 19 years. This is how people started believing that winning the League equates you to Pokémon Master. Really, it doesn't make you a Master, but it's next best tangible thing for Ash to accomplish.

Remove the Gyms and League, and you are left with an Ash with no defined goals. We do not see him eagerly going out into the wildness to find and catch Pokémon for his Rotom Dex, and we do not know what Ash will get out of collecting all the Z-crystals or beating the Totem Pokémon.

I could be mis-remembering but....wasn't the general opinion of XY around here during its first year or so that it was the "poor man's DP" and "only a little better than BW"? Serena had like no development/storyline the first 40 episodes, many thought the Korrina arc was boring/showed how little chemistry the XY group had, Team Flare didn't show up in the main anime until XY094, and a lot of people (from what I remember) thought it was just "going through the motions", which to be fair it was. It wasn't really until about XY092 that things started to pick up plot-wise, and even then a lot of people complained that the beginning of the XYZ arc had too many fillers. Greninja, the Pokemon billed as having this "amazing and rare" connection with Ash was barely even a standout Pokemon for the first 90-ish episodes. Whereas Litten, who admittedly hasn't had much interaction with Ash as of yet, is already way, way, way more interesting and compelling as a Pokemon, simply because the writers are taking their time having Ash capture it while it builds up trust with him and his Pokemon.

Of course people are going to think XY was this crazy, action-packed series because 11/15 of the last episodes were climaxes of two big storylines, Ash's league and the Flare conflict. The first episode after the league ended was the beginning of the Flare cimax. Compare that to Best Wishes where the last ~20 episodes were pure 100% filler.

From my experience, fans would use game checkpoints to keep track of Ash's journey, which is useful in the event of filler. For example, when Ash and friends reach the Battle Mansion, fans will count how many landmarks and towns of interest there is between it and the next Gym town to estimate the minimum amount of episode they should expect. Even if one of them is filler, at least it makes it appear that Ash is getting closer to his goal. That's why I say traveling gives the illusion of progression which Sun and Moon doesn't have. Because Ash is not traveling and the Island Trials are radically different, we cannot rely on the games anymore and thus are left in the shadows of how far Ash really is. Is Ash truly leaving Melemele Island or is he going to be stuck there for the next six months if not three years?

Additionally, XY has given a focal mid-point goal in the form of Clemont. We know that they will fight each other at the fifth Gym, and that each are building up strength during their journey. When that happened, we already got our first glimpse with Team Flare in the Mega Evolution episodes and we know it will eventually crossover someday (because it's in the same continuity). And Serena's goal was getting increased focus around time. Additionally, I would have to admit that a part of people's interest in XY is to see just how far the anime will push the Amourshipping tease after the Date Episode.

But overall, I think it's XY Ash's newfound battle awesomeness after the bad taste of BW that might have kept the fan interest in XY rolling, even during through filler time, because this was the series where people legitimately think Ash has a shot of winning the League, and Ash has given a lot of good reasons to think that.

 

[SinnohEevee]

He does, but the problem about Pokémon Master is that it's a vague term from the very beginning. At the start of the original series, you would be lead to believe that being a Master means catch all 150 Pokémon until Episode 5, where Ash sees the League Poster and gets the idea of going to Gym Battles. After that, the catch 'em all aspect gradually got dropped out in favor of the Badge Quest, which became the de facto status quo for the next 19 years. This is how people started believing that winning the League equates you to Pokémon Master. Really, it doesn't make you a Master, but it's next best tangible thing for Ash to accomplish.

Remove the Gyms and League, and you are left with an Ash with no defined goals. We do not see him eagerly going out into the wildness to find and catch Pokémon for his Rotom Dex, and we do not know what Ash will get out of collecting all the Z-crystals or beating the Totem Pokémon.



From my experience, fans would use game checkpoints to keep track of Ash's journey, which is useful in the event of filler. For example, when Ash and friends reach the Battle Mansion, fans will count how many landmarks and towns of interest there is between it and the next Gym town to estimate the minimum amount of episode they should expect. Even if one of them is filler, at least it makes it appear that Ash is getting closer to his goal. That's why I say traveling gives the illusion of progression which Sun and Moon doesn't have. Because Ash is not traveling and the Island Trials are radically different, we cannot rely on the games anymore and thus are left in the shadows of how far Ash really is. Is Ash truly leaving Melemele Island or is he going to be stuck there for the next six months if not three years?

Additionally, XY has given a focal mid-point goal in the form of Clemont. We know that they will fight each other at the fifth Gym, and that each are building up strength during their journey. When that happened, we already got our first glimpse with Team Flare in the Mega Evolution episodes and we know it will eventually crossover someday (because it's in the same continuity). And Serena's goal was getting increased focus around time. Additionally, I would have to admit that a part of people's interest in XY is to see just how far the anime will push the Amourshipping tease after the Date Episode.

But overall, I think it's XY Ash's newfound battle awesomeness after the bad taste of BW that might have kept the fan interest in XY rolling, even during through filler time, because this was the series where people legitimately think Ash has a shot of winning the League, and Ash has given a lot of good reasons to think that.

The Trials to me seem to be de facto Gyms. Collecting Z-Crystals allow you to face the League, but I can't remember which ones exactly. I don't think Ash needs to collect them all, it depends on the Pokémon he gets and the moves they learn. I hope he gets a variety of Pokémon with a variety of moves, because for the Z-Crystals you don't get after a Trial, they would be quite useless if none of your Pokémon can use them.

 

[Shadao]

The Trials to me seem to be de facto Gyms. Collecting Z-Crystals allow you to face the League, but I can't remember which ones exactly. I don't think Ash needs to collect them all, it depends on the Pokémon he gets and the moves they learn. I hope he gets a variety of Pokémon with a variety of move, because for the Z-Crystals you don't get after a Trial, they would be quite useless if none of your Pokémon can use them.

Yes. Island Trials are Gyms in the games. But the anime have made it all the more difficult to know given how a good chunk of the Island Trial Captains are in school with Ash. So we can't rely the game plot where Ash will be going that well. Personally, they need to establish foreshadowing of the League if they want any interest to be maintained. Without an overarching tangible goal, it is more easy to lose to interest in the show even if the fillers are just half of Johto.

Heck, that's the reason why I lost interest in the Decolora Island Arc and went back when I saw previews of XY. If the Decolora Arc was used for Episode N, then I would have stick around a lot longer.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I could be mis-remembering but....wasn't the general opinion of XY around here during its first year or so that it was the "poor man's DP" and "only a little better than BW"? Serena had like no development/storyline the first 40 episodes, many thought the Korrina arc was boring/showed how little chemistry the XY group had, Team Flare didn't show up in the main anime until XY094, and a lot of people (from what I remember) thought it was just "going through the motions", which to be fair it was. It wasn't really until about XY092 that things started to pick up plot-wise, and even then a lot of people complained that the beginning of the XYZ arc had too many fillers. Greninja, the Pokemon billed as having this "amazing and rare" connection with Ash was barely even a standout Pokemon for the first 90-ish episodes. Whereas Litten, who admittedly hasn't had much interaction with Ash as of yet, is already way, way, way more interesting and compelling as a Pokemon, simply because the writers are taking their time having Ash capture it while it builds up trust with him and his Pokemon.

Of course people are going to think XY was this crazy, action-packed series because 11/15 of the last episodes were climaxes of two big storylines, Ash's league and the Flare conflict. The first episode after the league ended was the beginning of the Flare cimax. Compare that to Best Wishes where the last ~20 episodes were pure 100% filler.

I remember most of that for XY too. I don't remember terms like the poor man's DP or only a little better than BW, but stuff like Serena not having a storyline for roughly the first year, the Korrina arc and the chemistry with the XY were pretty frequent complaints for the series early in its run. Same with the beginning of the XYZ season having too many filler episodes and Greninja not really standing out for much of the series despite having a rare connection with Ash. I can see how the ending of XY would make fans think it was this action-packed series given the last chuck of episodes were about the League, Team Flare and then the aftermath of those arcs, but it kind of confuses me when people act like XY was always well received/popular and action heavy. It was pretty well received, at least more so than BW was early in its run, but I really don't think it got popular until well into its run.

He does, but the problem about Pokémon Master is that it's a vague term from the very beginning. At the start of the original series, you would be lead to believe that being a Master means catch all 150 Pokémon until Episode 5, where Ash sees the League Poster and gets the idea of going to Gym Battles. After that, the catch 'em all aspect gradually got dropped out in favor of the Badge Quest, which became the de facto status quo for the next 19 years. This is how people started believing that winning the League equates you to Pokémon Master. Really, it doesn't make you a Master, but it's next best tangible thing for Ash to accomplish.

Remove the Gyms and League, and you are left with an Ash with no defined goals. We do not see him eagerly going out into the wildness to find and catch Pokémon for his Rotom Dex, and we do not know what Ash will get out of collecting all the Z-crystals or beating the Totem Pokémon.

I can understand the issue of not having a tangible thing for Ash to accomplish, especially when Pokemon Master has always been a vague term, but I'm assuming that the Island Trials will eventually lead into Ash learning about a new Pokemon League for the Alola region similar to what happens in the games. The Trials are basically the Alola version of Gym battles and the Z-Crystals could easily serve as badges to prove that Ash has completed all of the trials. I can understand wanting to have that confirmed so that Ash can work towards a larger goal, but I don't know if we really need it pointed out either when it seems at least fairly likely to go in that direction.

QUOTE="Shadao, post: 6143380, member: 75097"]Yes. Island Trials are Gyms in the games. But the anime have made it all the more difficult to know given how a good chunk of the Island Trial Captains are in school with Ash. So we can't rely the game plot where Ash will be going that well. Personally, they need to establish foreshadowing of the League if they want any interest to be maintained. Without an overarching tangible goal, it is more easy to lose to interest in the show even if the fillers are just half of Johto.[/QUOTE]

While that's a fair point on relying on the plot of the game, I also don't think we can rule out the Alola League concept entirely either. It would provide something for the Trials to build up to over time. I'm also not sure if foreshadowing the League is necessary for interest to be maintained in the show either. I can understand wanting that and it wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure if the current approach is really a problem for the target audience.

 

[Johtohfiller]

I could be mis-remembering but....wasn't the general opinion of XY around here during its first year or so that it was the "poor man's DP" and "only a little better than BW"? Serena had like no development/storyline the first 40 episodes, many thought the Korrina arc was boring/showed how little chemistry the XY group had, Team Flare didn't show up in the main anime until XY094, and a lot of people (from what I remember) thought it was just "going through the motions", which to be fair it was. It wasn't really until about XY092 that things started to pick up plot-wise, and even then a lot of people complained that the beginning of the XYZ arc had too many fillers. Greninja, the Pokemon billed as having this "amazing and rare" connection with Ash was barely even a standout Pokemon for the first 90-ish episodes. Whereas Litten, who admittedly hasn't had much interaction with Ash as of yet, is already way, way, way more interesting and compelling as a Pokemon, simply because the writers are taking their time having Ash capture it while it builds up trust with him and his Pokemon.

Of course people are going to think XY was this crazy, action-packed series because 11/15 of the last episodes were climaxes of two big storylines, Ash's league and the Flare conflict. The first episode after the league ended was the beginning of the Flare cimax. Compare that to Best Wishes where the last ~20 episodes were pure 100% filler.

Speaking only for myself I think DP had better pacing overall, but for the most part I enjoyed XY from start to finish with some exceptions like quite a bit of filler early on, Team Rocket being hit or miss, and the Malamar subplot getting dropped.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I remember most of that for XY too. I don't remember terms like the poor man's DP or only a little better than BW, but stuff like Serena not having a storyline for roughly the first year, the Korrina arc and the chemistry with the XY were pretty frequent complaints for the series early in its run. Same with the beginning of the XYZ season having too many filler episodes and Greninja not really standing out for much of the series despite having a rare connection with Ash. I can see how the ending of XY would make fans think it was this action-packed series given the last chuck of episodes were about the League, Team Flare and then the aftermath of those arcs, but it kind of confuses me when people act like XY was always well received/popular and action heavy. It was pretty well received, at least more so than BW was early in its run, but I really don't think it got popular until well into its run.



I can understand the issue of not having a tangible thing for Ash to accomplish, especially when Pokemon Master has always been a vague term, but I'm assuming that the Island Trials will eventually lead into Ash learning about a new Pokemon League for the Alola region similar to what happens in the games. The Trials are basically the Alola version of Gym battles and the Z-Crystals could easily serve as badges to prove that Ash has completed all of the trials. I can understand wanting to have that confirmed so that Ash can work towards a larger goal, but I don't know if we really need it pointed out either when it seems at least fairly likely to go in that direction.

QUOTE="Shadao, post: 6143380, member: 75097"]Yes. Island Trials are Gyms in the games. But the anime have made it all the more difficult to know given how a good chunk of the Island Trial Captains are in school with Ash. So we can't rely the game plot where Ash will be going that well. Personally, they need to establish foreshadowing of the League if they want any interest to be maintained. Without an overarching tangible goal, it is more easy to lose to interest in the show even if the fillers are just half of Johto.

While that's a fair point on relying on the plot of the game, I also don't think we can rule out the Alola League concept entirely either. It would provide something for the Trials to build up to over time. I'm also not sure if foreshadowing the League is necessary for interest to be maintained in the show either. I can understand wanting that and it wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure if the current approach is really a problem for the target audience.[/QUOTE]

Travelling to a region would be pointless without a regional League. And those of the target audience who play the games may not like the absence of a Pokémon League.

 

[ii kanji]

I could be mis-remembering but....wasn't the general opinion of XY around here during its first year or so that it was the "poor man's DP" and "only a little better than BW"? Serena had like no development/storyline the first 40 episodes, many thought the Korrina arc was boring/showed how little chemistry the XY group had, Team Flare didn't show up in the main anime until XY094, and a lot of people (from what I remember) thought it was just "going through the motions", which to be fair it was.

A slight misremembering only insomuch as the forums feeling pretty dead until at least mid-series, only really picking up before/during XYZ. But I certainly remember A LOT of complaints, particularly surrounding Serena's lack of progression & inadequate group chemistry.

That's why I say traveling gives the illusion of progression which Sun and Moon doesn't have.

But ultimately it was only an illusion, and those who fell for it ended up burning their Pokemon toys in disappointment that Satoshi was "no closer to his goal" than before XY.

When that happened, we already got our first glimpse with Team Flare in the Mega Evolution episodes and we know it will eventually crossover someday (because it's in the same continuity).

Actually we didn't know for ages. I remember there being this query about whether it would cross over right until it happened.

 

[Shadao]

A slight misremembering only insomuch as the forums feeling pretty dead until at least mid-series, only really picking up before/during XYZ. But I certainly remember A LOT of complaints, particularly surrounding Serena's lack of progression & inadequate group chemistry.

Perhaps I was more focused on the Serebii forums then, since there was more activity. But regardless, I feel that complaints have become the normal thing now. I remember it dating back to Diamond and Pearl, with all the talk about Brock not doing anything. And it hasn't changed, and given that we have loads of characters in Sun and Moon, I believe it may get worse since I remember the argument that the anime couldn't handle juggling Ash's Pokémon in Best Wishes (Palpitoad anyone?). How would this be any better?

But ultimately it was only an illusion, and those who fell for it ended up burning their Pokemon toys in disappointment that Satoshi was "no closer to his goal" than before XY.

And you think removing the illusion would somehow make it better? Honest, yes. But that creates apathy, which is considered to be worse than hatred for a show. Apathy will lead to disinterest, and disinterest means less people would even bother covering it. In fact, that is how boredom is created. At least an illusion of progress with a sheer backlash has the audience's attention for better or worse.

Actually we didn't know for ages. I remember there being this query about whether it would cross over right until it happened.

I guess I was the one of the few who predicted it correctly. The moment I heard Mairin bringing up Ash, I knew they was a chance for Alain and Ash to crossover for a battle, especially when Ash is at his best in terms of battling. Seeing Team Flare only cements that notion because it tells me that Team Flare is indeed feasible to do with anime in spite of their genocidal goal, and the main series always featured the main villainous team. And considering that Alain was being manipulated by Lysandre, I figure that Alain will not be the hero who would save the day, but rather someone who needed to be saved. After all, the specials, despite being more dramatic, are still aimed for kids.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I think a big issue is that people don't trust the writers much.

 

[ii kanji]

But regardless, I feel that complaints have become the normal thing now.

Complaining is the status quo of the world so it's very much on the individual to enjoy the anime (or anything in life!) for its merits. I appreciate we both have very different opinions on SM so I'm not going to argue the finer points with you or anyone else because we're not going to change each others' minds!

And you think removing the illusion would somehow make it better? Honest, yes.

(This is why I like the general idea of what Matsui is attempting - I do love a bit of honesty.)

 

[Johtohfiller]

But ultimately it was only an illusion, and those who fell for it ended up burning their Pokemon toys in disappointment that Satoshi was "no closer to his goal" than before XY.

I don't think traveling in pursuit of a goal is strictly illusion; it aids characterization by showing motivation. One of my complaints with SM is the lack of emphasis on the Island Trials, it makes Ash seem oddly apathetic. Just mentioning the Trials here and there would be an improvement. Hopefully seeing Tapu Lele g̶e̶t̶ ̶e̶a̶t̶e̶n̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶H̶o̶-̶o̶h̶ will act as a motivator.

 

[SinnohEevee]

~~Have Ho-Oh join Ash's team. If Trollbias can have Legendaries, why not Ash?~~

But I know one that's unrealistic.

~~Test~~

 

[ii kanji]

Haha

I do agree with you that the time is coming for them to get a shift on with Satoshi's trials, but I'm also pretty confident that that is coming soon and that once it gains some momentum it will take centre stage as usual. I've enjoyed a bit of a holiday from that focus though and I don't think that's the wrong thing in and of itself!

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

I could be mis-remembering but....wasn't the general opinion of XY around here during its first year or so that it was the "poor man's DP" and "only a little better than BW"?

A slight misremembering only insomuch as the forums feeling pretty dead until at least mid-series, only really picking up before/during XYZ

Ironically I was detached from this forum for most of XY and only returned after it ended. I guess I wasn't alone in doing this? But from where I was XY is treated like the best thing ever. I wouldn't call it the best series so far, but it's pretty high ranked, like AG and DP, for me.

Serena had like no development/storyline the first 40 episodes

But I certainly remember A LOT of complaints, particularly surrounding Serena's lack of progression

Since Hikari's departure show no longer care about giving female leads actual battle related goals. (which is funny, considering at the time her departure everyone was so sure that her replacement will fill her shoes. Jokes on them!) If we're talking about the same standards that SM is using, Sihorn Race, Pokevision and Poffle Contest are definitely parts of her storyline/development. And there is also that thing between her and Satoshi...

how little chemistry the XY group had

I think XY had great chemistry. Probably the best chemistry since Kanto. We could shown more interaction between Satoshi-Eureka and Serena-Citron, but still I think they're better than average.

Greninja, the Pokemon billed as having this "amazing and rare" connection with Ash was barely even a standout Pokemon for the first 90-ish episodes.

Which is a good thing. Instead of one pokemon hogging all the screentime, it's shared within them. One of the best things about XY is its sharing screentime and focus between different pokemon/characters. It's a thing that pokemon anime always fails to do.

It wasn't really until about XY092 that things started to pick up plot-wise, and even then a lot of people complained that the beginning of the XYZ arc had too many fillers.

I can see how the ending of XY would make fans think it was this action-packed series given the last chuck of episodes were about the League, Team Flare and then the aftermath of those arcs, but it kind of confuses me when people act like XY was always well received/popular and action heavy.

I don't think so. XY might not, by your definition; "action packed", but action is definitely there. I also think that XYZ is the worst part of XY, there is too much rushing and not enough characterization. There is many plotlines that forgotten or solved with disappointing results. But I still prefer it to inaction of SM.

 

[Almonds]

I think a big issue is that people don't trust the writers much.

Hard to trust them when we know there's possible outside pressure involved that controls how the story unfolds. Remember, the anime staff tweeted about how they were upset about not being able to make Ash win at the Kalos League.

Who knows how much pressure they're getting about Sun and Moon.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Hard to trust them when we know there's possible outside pressure involved that controls how the story unfolds. Remember, the anime staff tweeted about how they were upset about not being able to make Ash win at the Kalos League.

Who knows how much pressure they're getting about Sun and Moon.

I wonder who really controls the anime?

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't think so. XY might not, by your definition; "action packed", but action is definitely there. I also think that XYZ is the worst part of XY, there is too much rushing and not enough characterization. There is many plotlines that forgotten or solved with disappointing results. But I still prefer it to inaction of SM.

I never said that action wasn't there. I'm just not sure if I'd consider XY as a whole as serious and as action packed as I think a lot of fans paint it to be. It was praised fairly well throughout its run, but I feel like it's been a bit glorified at the same time. As for XYZ, I don't think that they forgot that many plotlines. The only ones that I can think of that they didn't really address where the whole Blaziken Mask and the evil Malamar plot points.