Battle Tree Difficulty Spike?

[Bob Fizzle]

I've gotten so fed up with hax in the battle tree that I'm working on a hax team myself. Sash moody Smeargle as the lead. Spore, sub, baton pass, minimize. Accumulate moody boosts then pass to Mimikyu or another undecided teammate (probably Celesteela to have a special attacker and to minimize the presence of opposing grasses).

 

[Boss1708]

I have a doubt: were the Battle Maison and Battle Subway equally difficult (compared to each other)? I haven´t played the Battle Subway with competitively made teams, so naturally, it looks more difficult to me when using ingame teams...

Is the Battle Tree the first time we have had a difficulty spike in the generation´s battle facility, or have they all changed?

 

[Soki]

From what I read here it definitely seems more difficult than the Maison, never heard complaints like this about that one.

 

[Boss1708]

That´s weird, because I had heard that the Maison basically reused a good part of the Subway´s strategies and competitive sets...

...Maybe it´s the fact that the Subway didn´t have Megas, whereas the Maison allows you to use Megas, but the opponents still don´t use them. That could be the cause of the Maison looking easier, maybe, and not an inferior AI.

 

[Soki]

Oh no I meant that the Battle Tree is more difficult, as it seems to have an AI that is specifically making teams that can counter yours. I don't think the Maison had that kind of thing, I've never noticed it at least, the teams were generally the same no matter what team I used.

I don't know about the differences in difficulty between the Subway and the Maison, sorry ^^;

 

[Boss1708]

Oh, ok, I was actually asking about Maison vs Subway, since I think they should be equal in difficulty.

As for the Tree making teams specifically to counter your´s, the ORAS Battle Maison (can´t remember about XY) definitely does it for the lead Pokemon.

If I lead with a DD Salamence, the opponent´s first Pokemon will almost always be a Fairy, Ice or Water type (with ice moves). If I lead with Metagross, the opponent´s lead will usually be ground type or fire, etc.

 

[Fennel]

Finally achieved a 50-win streak in Super Singles! Here's my battle against Red: VFCG-WWWW-WWW6-R3ZN

It's not terribly exciting but I'll recap it cause why not. I used Kartana/Garchomp/Tapu Fini. Red sends out Snorlax, Kartana uses Sacred Sword and takes it down to red HP. Red switches out Snorlax for Charizard. I switch to Fini rather than Chompy in case of a burn from the incoming Fire-type attack. Then Charizard Mega-Evolves to the Y form, which means it has insta-Solar Beam so I switch to Chompy and nuke it with Devastating Drake. Next is Lapras, who kills Chompy with Ice Shard. That leaves Kartana to OHKO Lapras with Leaf Blade and finish off the weakened Snorlax. And...victory!

This was my team:

Spoiler

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
IVs: x/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Smart Strike
- Sacred Sword
- Psycho Cut

I used to lead with Garchomp but Kartana can blaze through battles without needing to set up, which makes them go much faster. Quite a few battles were over in just three turns thanks to its huge Attack stat + Beast Boost. Great for Rare Candy/Bottle Cap farming. After a while you learn when to keep it in and when to switch out, which is important because it dies from pretty much any unresisted special attack. Overall I really love Kartana; it's powerful, has a cool design, and the new Leaf Blade animation is sexy.

Garchomp @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Rough Skin
IVs: 31/31/31/x/31/31
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Iron Head

Good, reliable Chompy. Devastating Drake is devastating all right. Didn't use Iron Head too often.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
IVs: 31/x/31/x/x/31
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Surf
- Taunt

This thing is very bulky. I should have bottle capped it but I was too lazy. Misty Surge is great; as someone else pointed out earlier, the AI doesn't recognize it and will spam Confuse Rays and Thunder Waves to no avail while it's active. Taunt was occasionally helpful, like when dealing with Rest users.

The three work very well together and I love how the two at the back cover Kartana's 4x Fire weakness. I'm not aiming for a long streak so I'm pretty much done with Singles now. On to Doubles!

I also came across Anabel for the first time recently. I've gone through a LOT of battles farming for Rare Candies/Bottle Caps yet I'd never seen her once even though I'd seen all the other special trainers multiple times. I was starting to wonder if she only appeared in post-50 battles or something, but evidently not as I saw her in battle 10. Unfortunately, this was in Super Multis so I couldn't scout her.

 

[SpikOriundo]

From the very little I played Battle Subway, a few years ago: It was fine, definitely difficult while using the in-game team, but it was fine.
From the few battles I did on Battle Maison: The fact it goes nice on you with unevolved Pokémon is a good touch, because while easy, it still can screw you if you understimate them. Haven't played the Super Battles yet, though I imagine it's still fine.
From the various hours I played on Battle Tree: It's bull****. Search my other messages on this thread to see what I think about it, don't want to repeat my complaining once more, the 500 times I've done is enough.

 

[Anime Psyclone]

Let me say this. The Battle Mason was no issue for me. And I can’t even get up to 5 on the Battle Tree. Let that sink in. Oh yeah, my team consists of Ultra Beasts and the Tapu. I can’t even

 

[SirOni]

I've suspected that the Maison and the Tree start using Pokemon that are advantageous against your lead at least the farther you go ever since I've had consecutive battles against the same Spiritomb when I was using Mega Kangaskhan. To deal with this I've switched out the team I'm using every ten or so battles. So like if I'm leading with Ash-Greninja which has trouble with bulky Water-types then I'll swap it out for a Grass or Electric-type, preferably one that can set up.

 

[Fennel]

Re: AI counterteaming and hax – I'm gonna be the voice of dissent here and say that there's no hard evidence for that. At all.

Looong post under the cut:

Spoiler

There are a few things to remember:
1. Each trainer in the Battle Tree is assigned a certain list of Pokémon movesets, and they can ONLY use 'mons from that list. Exactly which Pokémon they will use (again, from their assigned list) is random.
2. Multiple trainers will carry the same Pokémon sets. For example, eleven trainers are able to use Aerodactyl-1, aka the Choice Scarf Aerodactyl with Rock Slide. Multiple trainers using a particular set = more chances to eventually come across that one Pokémon your team struggles against.
3. Certain trainers and Pokémon sets only appear early on in a streak, while others only appear later on.

To see how these things work in action:
Let's say that you have trouble with that aforementioned Aerodactyl, and it seems like it pops up ALL the time. The AI must be doing this on purpose, right? Okay, so now let's say one day you get lucky and manage to defeat it several times, building a decent streak in the process. After a while you'll notice that this one Aerodactyl will never show up anymore. (You'll come across other Aerodactyl, but not the Choice Scarf one.) That's because the eleven trainers that carry it (except for Blue*) are programmed to stop appearing after battle 40 (see point 3).

If the Tree was deliberately trying to screw you over, why wouldn't it just keep generating Aerodactyl-1 in your post-40 battles? Because there's a rhyme and reason to all of this. The Tree does not scan your team to come up with a counter team; rather, it is programmed exactly to follow certain rules about which trainers/sets can appear and when they appear. And one last thing, the pool of Pokémon that can appear in the Tree is HUGE so that also explains why you'll encounter multiple threats, making them seem common.

Regarding hax: just as building a long streak means you'll inevitably face certain threats, it also means you'll inevitably face certain conditions that screw you over if your team isn't equipped to deal with them (paralysis, confusion, etc.). That's the nature of probability. It's a more logical explanation than "the AI has a higher chance of landing critical hits" etc. which no one has been able to find concrete evidence for.

So you have to be prepared for these bad-luck scenarios ("hax") if you want a long streak. You have to plan very carefully because you have a limited number of Pokémon to use (three in Singles, four in Doubles), making it trickier to cover various weaknesses at once. Another example: you should have at least one Pokémon that can deal with burns. You can't just rely on the AI never burning you because it can and will happen, sooner or later – whether from Fire-type attacks, Will-O-Wisp, Flame Body, etc. You should also avoid using low accuracy moves (or at the very least, don't make it your Pokémon's primary move/s) to minimize the chances of missing twice in a row which can really screw you over. e.g. Surf/Scald > Hydro Pump. The "high risk/high reward" mode of playing is fun in battles with RL people (which is why one would typically use Hydro Pump > Surf/Scald there) but you really can't afford to do that in the Tree if you want to maintain a streak of 50+ in case luck is not on your side. Bottom line: bad luck happens, but it's just that – luck, and you have the power to minimize it or at least limit its effects with some planning.

*I believe that he can't use Aerodactyl-1 in the Super Singles battle though, correct me if I'm wrong. He and Red are unique in that they have two lists of potential Pokémon: one for regular modes and one for Super modes.

I'm definitely NOT an expert in the battle facilties by any means, and I'm sure someone else can argue this much more concisely. But I hope this post clears up a few things and is at least somewhat informative because AI counterteaming/hax seems to be a popular point of discussion in this thread...and I think people would have more fun with the Tree if they understood why it's not a thing (and why it seems like it's a thing), pushing them further toward building teams equipped to deal with many threats and bad-luck scenarios as possible – and toward success! The Tree is supposed to be fun, after all. I am not calling anyone out or trying to be preachy/passive-aggressive, I can totally understand this line of thinking and used to believe it myself. Just wanted to clear up some widespread myths.

 

[Bob Fizzle]

If the Tree was deliberately trying to screw you over, why wouldn't it just keep generating Aerodactyl-1 in your post-40 battles? Because there's a rhyme and reason to all of this. The Tree does not scan your team to come up with a counter team; rather, it is programmed exactly to follow certain rules about which trainers/sets can appear and when they appear. And one last thing, the pool of Pokémon that can appear in the Tree is HUGE so that also explains why you'll encounter multiple threats, making them seem common.

I'm convinced that the battle tree's logic is designed to increase the chances that you'll face teams exploiting shared weaknesses. For instance, I ran a team of Tapu Bulu/Heatran/Mega Sharpedo. I did well enough with it, but I noticed that there were quite a bit of fighting types on my opponents' teams. Sharpedo and Heatran share a weakness to fighting, and although Tapu Bulu helps cover that weakness, it was still there.

Then, I tried replacing Mega Sharpedo with Mega Metagross. I saw two things happen after the change. First was that I saw almost no poison types on my opponents' teams. Even with Tapu Bulu's stacked weakness to poison, 2 poison immunities appeared to outweigh that. Second, and perhaps more importantly, ignoring abilities, I did not have a fire resist on my team. It makes sense for the game's AI to ignore abilities since it randomizes the abilities on opponents' teams anyway. Given this, it likely ignored Heatran's fire immunity due to Flash Fire. Now, I had 2 'mons weak to fire and 1 that took neutral damage (before abilities). In the runs that I did with this team, I ended up facing sun teams and teams loaded with fire types, which struck me as intentional on the game's part because (a) I rarely saw a sun team when I ran Sharpedo over Metagross and (b) I saw the same sun teams multiple times in the same run on some attempts.

There still appeared to be some randomness to it, but based on my experiences, it seems that the AI weight the opponent and team selection so that you are more likely to face teams that can take advantage of stacked weaknesses.

 

[SpikOriundo]

I'm always using Mega Metagross.
SO I'M ALREADY F-ING TIRED OF ARCANINE USING Z-SUNNY DAY.

 

[SirOni]

I've been using Zoroark recently and I've notice that Battle Tree can see through the Illusion at least when it comes to status effects. I have Zoroark disguised as Nihilego and the opponents will occasionally use Toxic even though they would never do so against an actual Poison-type. And it's definitely not only Salazzle doing this!

 

[Almonds]

I've tried doing the Super Multi battles, but none have gotten me past 10 streaks. I'm going to try one more time with Wally (Garchomp and Magnezone) before going back to Super Doubles for more recruits.

 

[Fennel]

The games have been datamined to oblivion and no one, I repeat, no one has found even a shred of verifiable proof that the Tree counterteams. Or the other battle facilities, even after so many years of cheating claims. All these stories of terrible matchups and improbable losses are unfortunate, sure – Arceus knows how many sun teams were thrown at my Kartana lead. But unless we get some hard evidence, I can't say I see these claims as anything more than anecdotes given significance through confirmation bias.

For now, just work with what you have and you can still get far. I highly (HIGHLY) recommend looking up the Trainer and moveset data [1] [2] for anyone who isn't doing so already. If you're still worried about counterteaming (which you shouldn't and don't have to!), at least you'll get even with the AI this way. It's not the exact same because if your opponent can use one of two Gengar (for example), you won't be able to tell which one it is off the bat. But don't fret, remember that you already have privilege over the AI by virtue of being a living, breathing person who can make their own decisions. I can't stress how helpful this data is, especially once you get past battle 40.

Anyway, I was playing around with Mega Medicham as a Fake Out lead in Doubles, paired with Choice Scarf Xurkitree. There was no thought process behind this besides "I want to use a Mega I've never used before and Xurkitree is cool" but they were actually pretty great together and helped me to battle 40. I paused there because I need to find better backup 'mons.

 

[yoyokira]

I've got up to 45 wins this one is definitely tougher than the other ones. I just don't know why I haven't beaten it yet.

I have great pokemon all very well trained and what would seem to be a solid strategy, but it always beats me with hax, (like flinching, para hax etc.).

true true lmao. i guess the best way to try and go about it is with the same hax but it just doesn't work for me. my personal enemy in the battle tree is the shell smash/double team/+brightpowder barbaracle, i always miss the first hit and it gets up shell smash, double teams, and then just outspeeds and sweeps with STAB stone edge which never misses for some reason.

there IS an entire list of battle tree movesets however (x) i haven't actually bothered to read through all of it but you can get an idea of what to expect from the tree

The games have been datamined to oblivion and no one, I repeat, no one has found even a shred of verifiable proof that the Tree counterteams. Or the other battle facilities, even after so many years of cheating claims. All these stories of terrible matchups and improbable losses are unfortunate, sure – Arceus knows how many sun teams were thrown at my Kartana lead. But unless we get some hard evidence, I can't say I see these claims as anything more than anecdotes given significance through confirmation bias.

For now, just work with what you have and you can still get far. I highly (HIGHLY) recommend looking up the Trainer and moveset data [1] [2] for anyone who isn't doing so already. If you're still worried about counterteaming (which you shouldn't and don't have to!), at least you'll get even with the AI this way. It's not the exact same because if your opponent can use one of two Gengar (for example), you won't be able to tell which one it is off the bat. But don't fret, remember that you already have privilege over the AI by virtue of being a living, breathing person who can make their own decisions. I can't stress how helpful this data is, especially once you get past battle 40.

Anyway, I was playing around with Mega Medicham as a Fake Out lead in Doubles, paired with Choice Scarf Xurkitree. There was no thought process behind this besides "I want to use a Mega I've never used before and Xurkitree is cool" but they were actually pretty great together and helped me to battle 40. I paused there because I need to find better backup 'mons.

even with knowing the sets you're still susceptible to hax which always gets me bc i'm unlucky. i think my best was 35 on the tree before a mega gengar bodied my team lol.

it's also worth noting that the AI is kind of screwy with using status moves; i was using absol-mega against a mimikyu and it used thunder wave on me the entire time I was out on the field. komala's comatose ability messes up the AI way worse than this so if you're having trouble w status then use komala with some complimentary mons for dealing with threats.

 

[Almonds]

Worse than worse - your NPC partner will ruin things for you in Multi. Cynthia had been spammimg Earthquake with her Garchomp - even killing off my pokemon. And Wally has a Mega Garchomp that somehow always starts with setting up Sandstorm and wastes a turn when there's a Vanilluxe or Beartic waiting to plow through. Still, Wally hasn't tried killing my pokemon yet, and we managed to get to fifteen streaks in Super... though I don't know how long this will keep up...

 

[Zeb]

I lost to an annoying Bright Powder Mimikyu last night. Of course I missed my moves three times in a row and still had to break its Disguise...

I've been trying to hit 50 Super Multis with Colress. His Mega Metagross can plough through teams on its own.

 

[Almonds]

Wow, I just battled a seriously haxy trainer at the 57th battle in Super Doubles.

It was a Youngster with Regice, Registeel, Azelf, and Zapdos.

I lost because freaking Azelf was faster than Garchomp and kept hax-flinching dear ChompChomp with Extrasensory until it died.

Btw, does anyone know when Annabel appears? I never met her. Her line-up includes legendaries, so I assume she'd be available from 50+ streaks... perhaps?