Cheating In the Games (Controversial Topic!)

[DoctorWhy]

Cheating in single player? idgaf.

Cheating against other players, like with PokeGen? No. Not okay at all imo. But I've been over this before. There's a reason I don't do competitive. And it's PokeGen'ers

 

[Ch!ef]

Never played competitively myself, but I think I'd like to one day. As far as cheating, I did it once on a gen 3 game I no longer have years ago. Now, however, I'm struggling with the decision to rnga a perfect shiny ditto on a gen 3 game I recently bought, for the purpose of breeding better mons to save a little time. I'm not trying to skip the breeding process altogether, but I am trying to save time. From what I've read so far, that doesn't seem to be such a bad thing, right? I'm just wondering, how many people would still label me as an outright cheater?

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

That's an interesting question. Each individual Pokemon that'll be actually used is completely and in all ways legit, but you did use questionable methods to get them. This sort of thing is what makes the entire topic one huge grey area.

 

[SeanWheeler]

Personally, I don't like seeing cheated Pokémon. I am trying to fill my Pokédex as much as I can, but I wouldn't cheat to do it. Even with impatience in my personality I'd rather to the hard work of getting Pokémon than to cheat. Some cheats in games (not just Pokémon but video games in general) can lead to glitches. While there are enjoyable glitches, there can also be game-breakers that force you to start over. I tend to get suspicious of Pokémon that are mostly illegitimate. Like a Charizard caught in Littleroot Town in Sapphire at Level 2.

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

An under-level Hydreigon with Life Orb seems like cheating to me when it comes to Ghetsis.

 

[Almonds]

I decided to revive this topic because I've had an odd thought.


Personally, I think there could be some unmentioned reasons involved for GF not making the games more time-consuming (in other words, "hardcore") in any way. Excluding the casual-appeal, people are hacking left and right to get the pokemon they want instantly and get through the main campaign within a day, and say that they're just hacking in pokemon because they "don't want to spend hours on the game" - and then they complain GF took the more casual-appealing route (in other words, "making the games too easy"). GameFreak had never really responded to all the hacking incidents (excluding the rom leak before the SM launch), but I do think they are aware of the overall situation - from the obnoxious GTS trades to all the brags about hacks going around major pokemon-related sites.

So maybe this is what's happening.
Gamers hack in to reduce wasting time -> GF takes it as gamers not wanting to spend more time on the games -> games become casual friendly -> complaints from gamers because the games are easy.

I think gamers are eventually going to pay for what they started - if the hacks are indeed part of the reason for the games going "soft". For all that's going around on the internet, I don't know if gamers who hack are even the minority anymore.

I know this is probably a weird idea, but somehow I think there must be some connection to it. After all, GF did say that people these days don't have time to play games - and obviously, even gamers don't want to spend time on games when they could be doing other productive stuff.

 

[Soki]

Excluding the casual-appeal, people are hacking left and right to get the pokemon they want instantly and get through the main campaign within a day, and say that they're just hacking in pokemon because they "don't want to spend hours on the game" - and then they complain GF took the more casual-appealing route (in other words, "making the games too easy").

The biggest reason for people to hack Pokémon is not because they don't want to go through the main game though, it's because they want competitive Pokémon without having to breed and train them, or Shiny Pokémon without having to look for them. GF has made these things easier to do over the years too, but it's still a huge drag and extremely boring to do and definitely not 'too easy' yet.

Another reason to hack is to complete the Pokédex, another task that is a drag and boring, and definitely not easy.

The main game is not the reason why people are hacking, so I don't really see that connection.

 

[Almonds]

The biggest reason for people to hack Pokémon is not because they don't want to go through the main game though, it's because they want competitive Pokémon without having to breed and train them, or Shiny Pokémon without having to look for them. GF has made these things easier to do over the years too,but it's still a huge drag and extremely boring to do and definitely not 'too easy' yet.

Another reason to hack is to complete the Pokédex, another task that is a drag and boring, and definitely not easy.

The main game is not the reason why people are hacking, so I don't really see that connection.

To get strong pokemon quickly and get easy wins and get access to the post-game. But if not, then I might be mistaken.

But overall there's the point - the one I bolded. Even if the main game isn't the reason for hacks, pokemon isn't just about the main campaign. The part where people don't want to spend time on, even gamers, is what comes after the main game - the competitive part mostly. Because some of the very aspects of the game is tedious and boring and time-consuming. Hence, GF reducing said time-consuming elements overall because "people don't have time for games". And we get games that become easier and easier by every installment.

Not saying that the hacks are solely responsible for the changes, but may have played a part in it, even a 0.01% effect.

 

[Morningstar]

The main game is not the reason why people are hacking, so I don't really see that connection.

Ont he other hand, Game Freak did make the other things you listed easier.

• BW2: Shiny Charm
• XY: Destiny Knot Buff, lowered Shiny starting odds. Friend Safaris, Super training and Hoards for EVs
  
• OR/AS: DexNav
• Sun/Moon: National Dex is no longer required to get the Shiny Charm. Hyper Training, SOS Battles for increased EVs

While I would agree that the Main game would be unaffected by this (its hard to argue that they wanted players to reach the endgame fast with all those cutscenes every 2 steps ). It does seem like other aspects were streamlined and made easier.too ofthen for it to not be a coincidence.

 

[Soki]

To get strong pokemon quickly and get easy wins and get access to the post-game. But if not, then I might be mistaken.

Could be, but the games are easy enough that grinding levels is not even needed anymore, so strong hacked Pokémon will get you through it just as fast as just catching them regurlarly really Definitely not the main reason for people to hack.

Hence, GF reducing said time-consuming elements overall because "people don't have time for games". And we get games that become easier and easier by every installment.

Most complaints about the games becoming too easy are about the main game though. I've only seen very few people complaining that getting Pokémon with high IV's and training EV's has become too easy, most people are only happy with it.

Ont he other hand, Game Freak did make the other things you listed easier.

As I said: "GF has made these things easier to do over the years too, but it's still a huge drag and extremely boring to do and definitely not 'too easy' yet." Hardly anyone's complaining about that becoming easier.

 

[Almonds]

Could be, but the games are easy enough that grinding levels is not even needed anymore, so strong hacked Pokémon will get you through it just as fast as just catching them regurlarly really Definitely not the main reason for people to hack.



Most complaints about the games becoming too easy are about the main game though. I've only seen very few people complaining that getting Pokémon with high IV's and training EV's has become too easy, most people are only happy with it.



As I said: "GF has made these things easier to do over the years too, but it's still a huge drag and extremely boring to do and definitely not 'too easy' yet." Hardly anyone's complaining about that becoming easier.

Ah well. Since hacking is still a major issue that GF has yet to actively take strong actions against (again, except for the rom leak), I just brought up the possibility that maybe they took note that even gamers weren't being as dedicated to the games anymore (hacking in pokemon to save time instead of, well, playing the game is one example) and decided it would be all the more better to appeal to the more casual/easy side since non-gaming people don't have time to play games anyways.

If no one's complaining about the games getting easier, then I guess GF made the right call, hacks or not.

 

[RedRockFyre]

Maybe a moderator should just put this as the OP since you basically... shaved... off about 3/4 of my OP.

But seriously, I share the same viewpoint as you do. Pokemon that can pass a legitimacy test I'm okay with. Cheating in Pokemon will always be one of those grey areas of the community. Is it ok or is it not? And if it is, to what extent? I doubt we'll all ever come to an agreement on that, but that's ok. A lot of the Powersavers keep to themselves, a lot of the people who will read/post on this thread will be cheaters but never say it out loud. My friend who is a much more skilled competitive battler than I am (the same one I mentioned as generating his entire team for the Primal Battle, and for privacy reasons I won't post his exact rank but he was in the top-150 for that tournament), assured me that the majority of competitive battlers cheat somehow, even if it's to get a 6IV Ditto to breed their teams legitimately, that's still technically cheating, even if the hatched Pokemon is legitimately a 5/6IV Pokemon. He just flat out generated Pokemon that could pass a legitimacy test but instead of spending weeks, maybe months (he used a Cresselia and Landorus, so getting those perfect alone would take a lot of time soft-resetting), he was able to get his team within an hour or two and get right to testing them out in Battle Spot.

I'm actually absolutely against cheating pokemon in even to save time. I think it is completely bs that I have to fight full teams of 6 IV tapus in OU, or even hacked 6 IVS in general. This morning I sat down to breed a Shedinja, of course only aiming for max Spe and Atk but in 15 minutes of breeding I got a full 6 IV shedinja.

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

I'm actually absolutely against cheating pokemon in even to save time. I think it is completely bs that I have to fight full teams of 6 IV tapus in OU, or even hacked 6 IVS in general. This morning I sat down to breed a Shedinja, of course only aiming for max Spe and Atk but in 15 minutes of breeding I got a full 6 IV shedinja.

Yeah, that's the nice thing about stuff like the Destiny Knot and Power Items. So long as you have some decent Pokemon to use as a starting point (a good Ditto works wonders), it's actually not that hard.

 

[AisuMuffin]

As far as Pokemon is concerned a correctly created and generated Pokemon will not be discernible from a legitimate copy, A cloned Pokemon is much the same.

I'm a long time Runescape player, and players frequently refuse or reject the idea of new and fresh content, or the removal of older essentially dead content that would make the game simpler to play because it ultimately "Devalues their achievement." I find this to be a illogical. If you've achieved something in a game and you're proud of it, the amount of effort other people use to achieve the same goal should not matter or hinder your own sense of satisfaction. So long as it does not negatively effect the game at large.

I feel the same could be said about Pokemon breeding. If you managed to breed a shiny 6iv Pokemon with ideal nature and egg moves and you feel proud about your persistence and diligence in the crafting of it, someone else achieving it through whatever methods they found most worthwhile for their time.

It's like the old saying goes, it's not about the destination, it is the journey. The time you took working hard (Or indeed hardly working in some cases.) is where the real value of what you achieved in the game comes from, the experience and learning about how something works while you're trying to achieve it and perhaps even time saves or streamlines you discovered along the way. At the end of the day both players are ending up with the same Pokemon legal within the ruleset it's just that one of them may have had a much more enriched and intimate experience with the game, your mileage may vary on that.

TL;DR is that if you truly enjoy what you're doing and are proud of your achievement then it should not matter that someone else did not enjoy the same thing and merely decided to take a shortcut. You're already having fun, they're having more fun not having to do something they do not enjoy and nobody loses.

 

[RedRockFyre]

As far as Pokemon is concerned a correctly created and generated Pokemon will not be discernible from a legitimate copy, A cloned Pokemon is much the same.

I'm a long time Runescape player, and players frequently refuse or reject the idea of new and fresh content, or the removal of older essentially dead content that would make the game simpler to play because it ultimately "Devalues their achievement." I find this to be a illogical. If you've achieved something in a game and you're proud of it, the amount of effort other people use to achieve the same goal should not matter or hinder your own sense of satisfaction. So long as it does not negatively effect the game at large.

I feel the same could be said about Pokemon breeding. If you managed to breed a shiny 6iv Pokemon with ideal nature and egg moves and you feel proud about your persistence and diligence in the crafting of it, someone else achieving it through whatever methods they found most worthwhile for their time.

It's like the old saying goes, it's not about the destination, it is the journey. The time you took working hard (Or indeed hardly working in some cases.) is where the real value of what you achieved in the game comes from, the experience and learning about how something works while you're trying to achieve it and perhaps even time saves or streamlines you discovered along the way. At the end of the day both players are ending up with the same Pokemon legal within the ruleset it's just that one of them may have had a much more enriched and intimate experience with the game, your mileage may vary on that.

TL;DR is that if you truly enjoy what you're doing and are proud of your achievement then it should not matter that someone else did not enjoy the same thing and merely decided to take a shortcut. You're already having fun, they're having more fun not having to do something they do not enjoy and nobody loses.

I agree that it's okay to hack in pokemon as long as you don't use them in tournaments. Half the challenge of VGC is the part where you breed the pokemon and properly use the game mechanics to achieve your results, not simply handpicking moves, stats, natures, and abilities. However, I am totally for hacking in a pokemon to use as a parent for a legit mon (I have a shiny 6IV HA ditto from wonder trade that im 90% sure was hacked, but i still use it as a parent for breeding). The worst of it is when people hack in shiny 6IV legendaries and try to pass them off as legit, and throw a fit when you claim that no, their game's shiny lock didn't break

 

[Envoy]

Let me illustrate this for you guys:

Alice and Bob enter the VGC.

Alice has a Venusaur with 6 31IV's. Bob has a Venusaur with 6 31 IV's.

Only one of their Pokémon is hacked. Using only the information I provided, tell me, which one?

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

Let me illustrate this for you guys:

Alice and Bob enter the VGC.

Alice has a Venusaur with 6 31IV's. Bob has a Venusaur with 6 31 IV's.

Only one of their Pokémon is hacked. Using only the information I provided, tell me, which one?

Important question: Are they identical? What balls are they in? You can't tell from the information you've given, but other little tidbits on their status screens might. I get exactly what you're saying though. They're functionally identical, what does it matter if they were hacked or bred?

 

[Envoy]

Important question: Are they identical? What balls are they in? You can't tell from the information you've given, but other little tidbits on their status screens might. I get exactly what you're saying though. They're functionally identical, what does it matter if they were hacked or bred?

Hence my point.

You want more detail?

Alice's Venusaur traveled to Alola from Kalos in a Pokeball. It has a Bold nature and 252 HP/252 Def/6 SpA EV's, as well as 6 31 IV's.

Bob's Venusaur traveled to Alola from Kalos in a Pokeball. It has a Bold nature and 252 HP/252 Def/6 SpA EV's, as well as 6 31 IV's.

Which one is hacked?

 

[Almonds]

Rules listed in the Play! Pokemon Rulebook:

Illegal Pokémon
4.1. Illegally Manipulated Pokémon
o The use of external devices, such as a mobile app, to modify or create items or Pokémon
in a player’s Battle Team is expressly forbidden. Players found to have Pokémon or items
that have been tampered with may be disqualified from competition, regardless of
whether the Pokémon or items belong to that player or were traded for.
4.2. Electronic Hack Checking
o A player’s Battle Team may be checked at any time for illegal Pokémon using an electronic
hack check.
o If you are unable to connect to the Internet due to device error or are blacklisted from
game online functionality you will not be able to participate in the event.
4.3. Manual Hack Checking
o A player’s Battle Team may be manually checked by an organizer or a judge for known
hacks as outlined in the appendix below. Only hacks outlined in the Manual Hack
Checking Appendix or uncovered through the electronic hack check may be penalized.
4.4. Reporting Suspected Hacks
o Suspected new hacks should be reported to Pokémon Organized Play (POP) through
Customer Support – support.pokemon.com

Well, the rules say no hacks, so no hacks if you're participating in the VGC tournament.

 

[Envoy]

Rules listed in the Play! Pokemon Rulebook:

Well, the rules say no hacks, so no hacks if you're participating in the VGC tournament.

*facepalm*

Of course the rules say no hacks. Of freaking course they would say that. What else would they say?

That is not the point. It has never been the point.

Everyone knows hacking is against the rules. Nobody's ever questioned that. The question isn't 'is it against the rules?' The question is 'is it wrong?'

Believe it or not, they are two vastly different questions with two vastly different answers. Because what is legal isn't always right and what it illegal isn't always wrong.