Cheating In the Games (Controversial Topic!)

[Slife]

*facepalm*

Of course the rules say no hacks. Of freaking course they would say that. What else would they say?

That is not the point. It has never been the point.

Everyone knows hacking is against the rules. Nobody's ever questioned that. The question isn't 'is it against the rules?' The question is 'is it wrong?'

Believe it or not, they are two vastly different questions with two vastly different answers. Because what is legal isn't always right and what it illegal isn't always wrong.

At the same time, they aren't inseparable either. Laws and legality are dictated by the authority that governs them. You can't only look at the matter in a vacuum or simply through a utilitarian perspective. Yes, for all intents and purposes, a Pokemon hacked with legal stats/movesets are indistinguishable in battle from Pokemon bred and raised with the same stats/moveset. The advantage comes not from the quality of the Pokemon in battle, rather the time taken to acquire those Pokemon. Just like you can't look at this question in isolation, you can't isolate the outcome of a battle from the time and preparation that goes into it. Being successful at competitive Pokemon requires immense hours of teambuilding, testing, and understanding the metagame. The time lost by a player to legally obtain their Pokemon could be time used by another player to prepare and practice for the competition. In casual Wi-Fi battles this may not matter so much; however, in a competition where thousands of dollars in prize money and scholarships are at stake, that disparity is quite significant. If someday TPCi decides to change the rules to allow for modified Pokemon and/or remove the current requirements for obtaining said Pokemon, then we have a different story. But until then, competitive players should be aware that there are consequences for using Pokemon obtained through ulterior means.

 

[Envoy]

*facepalm*

Of course the rules say no hacks. Of freaking course they would say that. What else would they say?

That is not the point. It has never been the point.

At the same time, they aren't inseparable either. Laws and legality are dictated by the authority that governs them. You can't only look at the matter in a vacuum or simply through a utilitarian perspective. Yes, for all intents and purposes, a Pokemon hacked with legal stats/movesets are indistinguishable in battle from Pokemon bred and raised with the same stats/moveset. The advantage comes not from the quality of the Pokemon in battle, rather the time taken to acquire those Pokemon. Just like you can't look at this question in isolation, you can't isolate the outcome of a battle from the time and preparation that goes into it. Being successful at competitive Pokemon requires immense hours of teambuilding, testing, and understanding the metagame. The time lost by a player to legally obtain their Pokemon could be time used by another player to prepare and practice for the competition. In casual Wi-Fi battles this may not matter so much; however, in a competition where thousands of dollars in prize money and scholarships are at stake, that disparity is quite significant. If someday TPCi decides to change the rules to allow for modified Pokemon and/or remove the current requirements for obtaining said Pokemon, then we have a different story. But until then, competitive players should be aware that there are consequences for using Pokemon obtained through ulterior means.

All of which are choices players make. The person who chose to breed the team legally made a deliberate choice not to modify them, and they have to deal with such consequences.

 

[Almonds]

All of which are choices players make. The person who chose to breed the team legally made a deliberate choice not to modify them, and they have to deal with such consequences.

Yes, it's up to the players to hack or not. Likewise, it's up to the players to follow the rules or not. Players should be aware there are consequences for not following the rules.

 

[Slife]

All of which are choices players make. The person who chose to breed the team legally made a deliberate choice not to modify them, and they have to deal with such consequences.

It goes without saying that anyone who doesn't "cheat" will be at a disadvantage. That doesn't validate the action. But yes, it comes down to what choice the player makes given the rules and means at their disposal. However, the player has a responsibility to understand the circumstances surrounding the situation and the implications of their actions, whatever those may be in the end.

 

[Envoy]

Yes, it's up to the players to hack or not. Likewise, it's up to the players to follow the rules or not. Players should be aware there are consequences for not following the rules.

Are there? And more importantly, should there be?

If Charlie doesn't say his Venusaur is hacked, how will anyone know?

More importantly, the hacking doesn't give Charlie an advantage. He simply used a shortcut to get around a massive oversight on behalf of the developers (that being that tournament-ready Pokémon are a pain and a half to obtain.) The advantage comes straight from Charlie's knowledge of the game's battle mechanics in combination with his tactical mind. Neither of which can be gotten through hacking.

It goes without saying that anyone who doesn't "cheat" will be at a disadvantage. That doesn't validate the action. But yes, it comes down to what choice the player makes given the rules and means at their disposal. However, the player has a responsibility to understand the circumstances surrounding the situation and the implications of their actions, whatever those may be in the end.

Let's put it this way. Diane and Emma are both planning to enter a fencing competition. Diane is very much in shape and chooses to spend her time training her form and tactics.

Emma is flabby and needs to get in shape before entering the competition.

By the time the competition starts, both women are in shape, but Diane spent more time working on her strategy while Emma had to first get in shape. How is it Diane's fault that Emma didn't work on her strategy?

And btw, performance enhancement drugs (because that's what most people immediately jump to with these kinds of analogies) aren't applicable here. Diane doesn't have a physical advantage over Emma come competition time.

 

[Almonds]

Are there? And more importantly, should there be?

If Charlie doesn't say his Venusaur is hacked, how will anyone know?

The rules say hacks would result in disqualification. And please, I didn't make those rules - The Pokemon Company did. If you think disqualification is too harsh a punishment for bringing hacks to an official competition, complain to The Pokemon Company and request them to allow hacks.

If Charlie doesn't say his pokemon is hacked?

Best hope he didn't brag about his hacking hobby and his hackmons to anyone else because rule number 4.4 says people can report hack suspects.

 

[Envoy]

The rules say hacks would result in disqualification. And please, I didn't make those rules - The Pokemon Company did. If you think disqualification is too harsh a punishment for bringing hacks to an official competition, complain to The Pokemon Company and request them to allow hacks.

If Charlie doesn't say his pokemon is hacked?

Best hope he didn't brag about his hacking hobby and his hackmons to anyone else because rule number 4.4 says people can report hack suspects.

I'm not going to complain to the Pokémon company because it would be pointless. Of course they're going to take a stance against hacks. I just don't think Pokémon is one of those games where they necessarily should.

And...no shit genius. Of course people are going to report hack suspects. And, "if Charlie doesn't say his Venusaur is hacked..." implies he's not bragging about it by definition. I'm not sure what the point of your comment was.

But let's talk about hack suspects again, shall we? I will once more refer to my previous example. If the two damn Venusaur are completely indistinguishable from one another, with the exception being that one of them is hacked and the other isn't, how the hell is anyone gonna know?

Both Venusaur have the same IV's, a total of 510 EV's distributed legally among their stats, legal natures, legal pokeballs, legal catch locations, legal movesets, and legal colorations (regular and shiny.)

So what the fuck is the functional difference between them? Why would anyone suspect one is hacked, and more importantly, how are they going to legitimize that? Pokémon have to pass a legitimacy test, and both of these Venusaur would.

All of which leads back to the point: if there's no functional difference between the two Pokemon, then why the fuck do you care how it was obtained. Focus on beating the Venusaur in front of you instead.

What do you care if the Venusaur came from Blue, LeafGreen, SoulSilver, White 2, X, AlphaSapphire, Sun, or PokeGen?

It doesn't give the opponent any advantage against you whatsoever in any way, so who gives a fuck?

Now, if Venusaur turns out to have a 32 IV stat, or starts busting out Spores and Dragon Ascents, then we have an issue.

 

[Almonds]

I'm not going to complain to the Pokémon company because it would be pointless. Of course they're going to take a stance against hacks. I just don't think Pokémon is one of those games where they necessarily should.

And...no shit genius. Of course people are going to report hack suspects. And, "if Charlie doesn't say his Venusaur is hacked..." implies he's not bragging about it by definition. I'm not sure what the point of your comment was.

But let's talk about hack suspects again, shall we? I will once more refer to my previous example. If the two damn Venusaur are completely indistinguishable from one another, with the exception being that one of them is hacked and the other isn't, how the hell is anyone gonna know?

Both Venusaur have the same IV's, a total of 510 EV's distributed legally among their stats, legal natures, legal pokeballs, legal catch locations, legal movesets, and legal colorations (regular and shiny.)

So what the fuck is the functional difference between them? Why would anyone suspect one is hacked, and more importantly, how are they going to legitimize that? Pokémon have to pass a legitimacy test, and both of these Venusaur would.

All of which leads back to the point: if there's no functional difference between the two Pokemon, then why the fuck do you care how it was obtained. Focus on beating the Venusaur in front of you instead.

What do you care if the Venusaur came from Blue, LeafGreen, SoulSilver, White 2, X, AlphaSapphire, Sun, or PokeGen?

It doesn't give the opponent any advantage against you whatsoever in any way, so who gives a fuck?

Now, if Venusaur turns out to have a 32 IV stat, or starts busting out Spores and Dragon Ascents, then we have an issue.

All I'm saying is rules are rules as made by the Company. If players aren't going to play by the rules, there's no point to a competition.

 

[Envoy]

All I'm saying is rules are rules as made by the Company. If players aren't going to play by the rules, there's no point to a competition.

And all I'm saying is that not all rules are equal to each other, not all rules are fair, and not all rules are right. And that breaking some rules has literally zero negative consequences for all parties involved, thus making some rules redundant.

 

[Morningstar]

Regarding Tournament Legal pokemon being a pain to get. I think there are many factors at work. The big ones being IVs, but Hidden Abilities, EVs and Natures are also factors in a Pokemon's viability, And in this regard, GF has taken strides in making the process easier overall. The Everstone and the Destiny Knot had been buffed to ensure the offspring would have the a 100% chance at inheriting the right nature and getting 5 IVs from both parents. And there is an item that can ensure an ability change (thought locking out the hidden ability), and now Legendaries are guarenteed at least 3 IVs.

However the thing is, IVs and how Natures affected stats were not public knowledge. They were implemented as ways to differentiate and characterize the pokemon. As established by the only hit of IVs being more of a trait and the Natures being essentially personalities. In generation 4, few people would had not known of them just by playing the games naturally. How did the playerbase find out how to min max stats effectively? EVs and natures could had been revealed by experimentation, but IVs? The hidden genetic data that underlies a Pokemon's stats? Or even a pokémon base stats. That was all information that was revealed by hacking and datamining.

And it isn't limited to stats. Other hidden info are the Secret ID used to determine Shiny Pokemon and the undistributed Mythical Pokemon and forms. Both of which were revealed by hacking as well (in fact, the datamines revealed Keldeo, Meloetta, Genesect, Diancie, Hoopa, Volcanian and Marshadow as early as the games release or the release of the demo int he latter's case. As well as Mega Latios and Latias, Original colors Magearna and the Fancy and Pokeball Vivillon patterns)

I must ask, is the use of hacking and datamining in the pursuit of knowledge also not as much cheating as directly modifying a pokemon's stats? But even if so, that the secret that was IVs became revealed caused the meta to undergo a paradigm shift. A truth has been revealed and it has affected the barrier to entry for tournament readiness. Instead of assuming that luck was the reason that Gyarados got KO to a U-turn from Butterfree, the players now know that the Butterfree had 31 Attack IVs and an Adamant nature, while the Gyarados has a Lax nature and 9 Defense IVs for example. And as such the extremes of both end of IVs became a requirement, most the highest. And I'd argue that the changes to breeding and allow us to view IVs and how nature effect stats (and altering IVs in SuMo) became a result of their secrets being laid bare for all to see...by hacking.

 

[SpikOriundo]

/\
This guy raises a point I hadn't thought about.
I'm generally all against hacking, but a bunch I know about I figured mostly on stuff that was datamined, and hacked to understand.
A bunch of the hacking COULD be avoided if Game Freak explained more about the insides of the mechanics.
I know how to breed a 5IV after reading a WHOLE LOT, and trying for a few hours. If there was a simplistic explanation about breeding, a in-game list or something on getting egg moves, people wouldn't feel so inclined on saying "f- this, I'mma get this thingmajig that makes me get competitive ready mons at lvl 100.
SM specially is not that much beginner friendly- I didn't have much problem because I like reading a bunch of stuff on Bulbapedia, but for people who don't do that? They'd have too many questions with no answers about these inside stuff. And having too many questions is not encouraging to not hack.
One example I can safely give: Warface. A FPS I used to play. There were some raid missions. They were crazy hard. A full team of 5 experienced players may still have a bunch of problems with those. What could beginners could do? Simple: stick with a hacker that would just shoot at a wall and the bullets would still go directly at the head of everyone. If there were some easier stuff to get these beginners to get more experienced safely, perfect! That was not the case, however.

 

[ocelotlrama jaguar]

Sun and Moon made it infinitely easier to get Pokemon "legally without hacking by hacking." Just breed a Pokemon for the Nature and egg moves, never mind if it happens to get garbage IVs, use the Action Replay code for 999 Golden Bottle Caps and Rare Candies, get what you want to level 100, and voila! You managed to get a tournament-ready Pokemon without messing up the data in your game and risking being banned for life on the PGL. For EVs, just SOS for them and call it a night. For even more fun, take advantage of the Poke Pelago glitch where you set the date and time to January 31, 2017 and the time at 23:59 and you get the EVs you need in a few minutes.

Is it ethical? I guess you decide. I've read both arguments here and I'm not going to change any minds. I wouldn't personally do the Action Replay part because I got better things to spend $20 on. The last part with Poke Pelago, well, until Game Freak patches that glitch, I'm having fun with it.

 

[EmpoleonProd]

Sun and Moon made it infinitely easier to get Pokemon "legally without hacking by hacking." Just breed a Pokemon for the Nature and egg moves, never mind if it happens to get garbage IVs, use the Action Replay code for 999 Golden Bottle Caps and Rare Candies, get what you want to level 100, and voila! You managed to get a tournament-ready Pokemon without messing up the data in your game and risking being banned for life on the PGL. For EVs, just SOS for them and call it a night. For even more fun, take advantage of the Poke Pelago glitch where you set the date and time to January 31, 2017 and the time at 23:59 and you get the EVs you need in a few minutes.

Is it ethical? I guess you decide. I've read both arguments here and I'm not going to change any minds. I wouldn't personally do the Action Replay part because I got better things to spend $20 on. The last part with Poke Pelago, well, until Game Freak patches that glitch, I'm having fun with it.

Yeah I think it's funny that they added hyper training and people call it an effort to "combat cheating" when in reality it just makes cheating Pokemon even easier.