Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Yeah no sorry, I'm going to be blunt. The 4Kids dub was awesome. Period. The writing was awesome, clever, witty, and smart. There was something there for older fans and you didn't feel like your IQ was in danger of falling watching it. The episode puns were awesome and so were the real life pop culture references. And the voice acting was top notch for humans and the Pokémon. I could care less if they didn't do a lame straight Japanese translation for every little thin[g] because it would've sucked and been lame. Mezase Pokémon master also would've been a complete bust had it been a direct translation.


TPCI is garbage and I will say it until the cows come home and that's a fact. Their writers suck and should be fired. The voice acting makes me want to vomit and the music is horrible. They took a smart, talented dub and destroyed it and made it unwatchable. I seriously cannot watch it without wanting to take an ice pick to my brain and feeling stupid after Not to mention people like Jimmy Zoppi, Tom Wayland, and Michele Knotz are terrible people and disrespectful makes the dub even more toxic.

The 4Kids and TPCI dubs are not on equal footing. Period.

I agree with most of your points, to be perfectly honest (again, I will reiterate it's only my opinion that your judgment is fairly sound, albeit I disagree with the pun titles & not using Japanese OPs, but TPCi also did both those things, so they were no better there), but one thing I feel I have to dispel is the notion that 4Kids' writing wasn't accurate: 20% of it was annoying rewrites with lame puns and weird stuff, yes, but roughly 80% of it was accurately translated, and even Dogasu conceded that back when he said what he did like about the 4Kids dub in the past despite his criticisms of it then & now (the next few reviews are exceptions he's done because 4Kids didn't improve their writing until Orange Islands, I'll admit that, they had a few low points at times w/it).

Albeit, I will say, their rendition of Meowth dialogue wise, even at its worst, still made more sense to me than TPCi's dialogue for the character: at least he was never 100% abrasive like he is now in the dub.

 

[Dogasu]

Personally I would say the accuracy of 4Kids' TV scripts were more in the 70% range, altogether (the movies and Chronicles are a whole other story).

The 4Kids and TPCI dubs are not on equal footing. Period.

We'll just have to politely agree to disagree. I truly believe there are things the 4Kids dub does better than the TPCI dub and there are things the TPCI dub does better than the 4Kids dub but that overall the two are equally poor products. If you like one more than the other then more power to you. All I can do is present my side of the argument (via my website, among other means) and invite people to come to their own conclusions.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Personally I would say the accuracy of 4Kids' TV scripts were more in the 70% range, altogether (the movies and Chronicles are a whole other story).



We'll just have to politely agree to disagree. I truly believe there are things the 4Kids dub does better than the TPCI dub and there are things the TPCI dub does better than the 4Kids dub but that overall the two are equally poor products. If you like one more than the other then more power to you. All I can do is present my side of the argument (via my website, among other means) and invite people to come to their own conclusions.

Well, that's fair, at least you aren't saying ALL of "4Kids' writing is cringy," so I appreciate that: you said 80% a few years ago, was referencing that.

And I frankly don't see how the TPCI dub really does anything better than the 4Kids dub by now, since they've been doing the same editing of kanji and making similar errors that 4Kids did at this stage (since XY started), but each to their own, I believe the 4Kids dub is a much more enjoyable product when all is said and done. I'll agree to disagree on that point- siding with Charmander4 on this one.

As for the Movies, I've read your reviews, I think it seems 4Kids got their act together on the writing for them by AG from what I can tell & Movies 3-4 had decent scripts, it's only Movies 1-2 & 5 (dialogue wise) I can see why you'd dislike the writing for them, for, I'll agree on those ones.

Chronicles, I have no excuse for that either, but TPCI pulled similar stuff with their dub of the Mega Evolution Specials so I find the two on equal footing in side specials (that, and they didn't even bother to dub most of the side specials altogether- a bad dub is better than no dub, from my perspective).

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

And I frankly don't see how the TPCI dub really does anything better than the 4Kids dub by now since they've been doing the same editing of kanji and making similar errors that 4Kids did at this stage

But isn't TPCI more faithful to the original script, instead of making up stuff?

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

But isn't TPCI more faithful to the original show, instead of making up stuff?

TPCI's dub still makes edits, errors, and such, these aren't 4Kids dub exclusive issues.

Linking a video solely for the purpose of showing this to be true.

View: https://vid.me/t8IC

The only thing you could really argue is the frequency of such things is reduced in TPCI's favor, but they're still absolutely guilty of their own mistakes as well in these departments: I see the two as equally flawed there.

Also I'll argue the worst dub script error ever was made in DP191's dub, when they had Ash say if he wins the Champion League, he'll become Pokemon Master, whereas Satoshi just said it'd be one step towards it. Sure we had Brock's mom being dead and all that other dumb stuff in 4Kids' dub, but there was nothing this severely goal-changing, of our main protagonist. Also, Brock calling Ash a Pokemon Master in the dub and Ash calling Brock a Pokemon Doctor was pretty made up as well in the same dub episode: Ash is definitely not a Master, to this very day.

tl;dr TPCI have absolutely made up stuff in their scripting, just like 4Kids before them did- perhaps not to the same degree when 4Kids diverged at times (Movies 1-2 & 5, Chronicles), sure I admit that, but it's still definitely been there regardless (e.g. "The Ole Berate and Switch" was a pretty terrible dub episode writing wise from BF, IIRC, several late DP episodes with rewrites, and many XY ones).

P.S. Not interested in discussing this further as I've been severely detracting from the intent of this thread, sorry, but by now we can all acknowledge the dub then & now has flaws nonetheless regardless of where we stand on it- I simply genuinely feel the 4Kids dub had more going for it as a production, that's all, and writing is one of the major reasons my preference is surprisingly towards the old rendition of the dub (bear in mind, this writing I preferred is when they were actually faithful).

 

[kantoskies]

The TPCi dub has many, many problems but I really don't think translating "carrots" as "veggies" is high on that list.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

I doubt that they're really afraid of using apples and carrots, still it's a weird error. But it's still nothing compared to something like this:

May: "The truth is, I don't like pokemon."
Haruka: "The truth is, I don't really like pokemon that much..."

 

[Mikuri]

TPCi tries to link the anime with the games as much as possible. There are no apples in the core series games, but there are Berries. Carrot is a real-world vegetable while "veggie" is a generic term that can apply to food in the Pokémon world as well.

Complaining about such small irrelevant dialogue edits is the very definition of nitpicking.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

The TPCi dub has many, many problems but I really don't think translating "carrots" as "veggies" is high on that list.

While I agree...

TPCi tries to link the anime with the games as much as possible. There are no apples in the core series games, but there are Berries. Carrot is a real-world vegetable while "veggie" is a generic term that can apply to food in the Pokémon world as well.

Complaining about such small irrelevant dialogue edits is the very definition of nitpicking.

And people "nitpicked" rice balls being called other stuff when 4Kids was around, but that didn't stop anyone from complaining then, so why now? Especially considering 4Kids did call them/or show rice balls a few times while they were around, both before & after the sandwich paint edits/eclair name calling, that's something that is glossed over in those instances, as well- I'm just saying...

(Inb4 Americanization is so much different, please, a food change is a food change no matter what case it's in, regarding both dubs)

In either case, if you ask me, I (speaking for myself) frankly don't care what they do to the food (or the sandwiches/eclairs and berries, respectively, from both dubs as examples), but it's still worth pointing out since they are all factually, food changes (even Dogasu had pointed all of these out in both dubs' cases earlier on these very forums), and we'd had complaints about said things on various Forums over the years (go check Serebii, Pokemopolis, even here, etc.).

Regardless, I was trying to prove my (actual) point with that video, which was not that, but that the TPCI dub is absolutely guilty of its own script changes, edits, and errors, just as the 4Kids dub was before it. This is an undeniable fact.

 

[FANG-TAN]

Honestly from what I've seen, I think both dubs are terrible, the 4Kids version (surprisingly) slightly less. At least they kept the damn movie music during the AG films.

TPCi managed to surpass the devil. Jeez.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Honestly from what I've seen, I think both dubs are terrible, the 4Kids version (surprisingly) slightly less. At least they kept the damn movie music during the AG films.

TPCi managed to surpass the devil. Jeez.

4Kids kept the music during Movie 4 & 5 (despite botching the script a bit with the latter one) as well, just thought it's worth mentioning, as well as the Pikachu shorts accompanying Movies 3-6. The Pikachu shorts (like the Movies since 17) don't even keep the OST anymore recently under TPCI, either, it's frankly disappointing to me- someone confirmed Ed Goldfarb's also doing the score for Movie 20's dub, too.

At any rate, I honestly don't think 4Kids' dub was terrible overall- it wasn't anything outstanding, but I found it decent for the most part (on occasion, fairly good, those AG films and several Orange Islands-Johto dub episodes being some examples where they barely tampered with anything significant, reading Dogasu's reviews), whereas TPCI's take...I feel like they haven't been trying for the most part since XY started now into SM, and even before then, I've always had issues with the voice acting & scripting in their rendition of the dub- it just doesn't sound natural to me at all, and was something people brought up during the Mastermind Special initial shift when it first debuted, that I feel hasn't changed much since then.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

And people "nitpicked" rice balls being called other stuff when 4Kids was around, but that didn't stop anyone from complaining then, so why now? Especially considering 4Kids did call them/or show rice balls a few times while they were around, both before & after the sandwich paint edits/eclair name calling, that's something that is glossed over in those instances, as well- I'm just saying...

It's not really fair to equalize two minor mistakes/edits with 4kids' systematic censorship.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

It's not really fair to equalize two minor mistakes/edits with 4kids' systematic censorship.

It's absolutely fair, considering TPCI has pulled quite a bit their own censorship as of late outside of this, and I find it's a double standard when only one company is criticized (4Kids) for what both companies are guilty of doing (both 4Kids & TPCi): I disagree with that sentiment wholeheartedly, and furthermore, TPCI has gone on to call apples berries a few other times as well in the XY dub, not just once (eg. "Here are your berries," "Those berries happen to belong to us," "Remind me to send that berry tree a thank you card")- I see no difference between the two anymore in terms of food censoring, one company hated rice balls while one hated apples, carrots, and peas, it's all food & renaming it is dumb in both cases.

Plus, the only reason you don't really see as much paint sploshed around now in frequency on signs and such is because...there is not really any kanji or Japanese text in the first place, anymore. I guarantee based on the fact TPCI is eliminating any presence of kanji since XY's dub began all the way into SM's dub (they have not kept any kanji since this time frame), it'll be no different from 4Kids in that regard when loads of it comes up again (and from what I can tell, they removed Z Move kanji now & any TR based kanji, too).

Regardless, where the two dubs are different (and what Charmander4 brought up is what I find very important) is enough for me to say, I legitimately preferred 4Kids' take on it, and I don't even feel the slightest bit bad anymore for it, seeing what TPCI's been doing as of late is not really any better in the editing/error department (and the music situation has gotten worse in all forms, the OPs are shorter for the Anime airings, the VA work is quite questionable for Pokemon as well as people, and the scripting has its own issues nowadays). I'm just saying...again...there are valid reasons to like the 4Kids' take more, just as some may find the TPCI take palatable (although I find the argument for TPCI to be considerably weaker as time has passed with the latter's dub, since in some form, they are imitating their predecessors' worst aspects from my perspective).

 

[Shadao]

Really, I wouldn't have as much gripes with the dub if it weren't for the fact that the original Japanese versions are almost impossible to find in the US. Considering that there exist websites dedicated to stream official Japanese anime with subtitles legally, I am dumbfounded as to why the Pokémon anime does not have the same treatment. Not even as a rare import. What gives?

And considering that the Nintendo Switch has recently became region-lock free, and you can switch up language track and subtitle with Breath of the Wild in a new update (Japanese audio track with English subtitle), it feels jarring that one of the most famous video game anime (based on a GameFreak/Nintendo IP) is not doing the same as an option.

 

[MRStealth64]

While the newer episodes are easy enough to find in Japanese and subtitled, the older stuff is nearly impossible to find as Shadao said. That's what really gets to me about this whole situation. It's like the companies that dub the Pokemon anime basically want to hide the fact that the original Japanese version even exists. There really is no excuse when just about every other anime under the sun has the Japanese version with English subtitles easily available. If they legally provided the anime with Japanese audio and English subtitles, then it wouldn't matter to me at all what they do with the dub. It's times like this I really wish Funimation, or just about any other anime liscensor, had the rights to the Pokemon anime.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Honestly, I'm not surprised that they don't do anything with the Japanese version. While having legal Pokemon subs sounds neat, I don't know if there really is a lot of demand for it compared to most anime or even just other toyetic anime titles. Back when 4Kids was dubbing various series, I would hear people wishing for One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh! and even Sonic X subs, but I don't think that Pokemon subs came up. I think part of that was just how most of 4Kids' dubs of other shows were much more in need of subs. Their dub of Pokemon wasn't one hundred percent accurate either, but it wasn't on the same level as their One Piece or Yu-Gi-Oh! dubs, outside of the early movies and Chronicles I guess. There are also a ton of episodes that they'd have to sub and put on another site. That would require quite a bit of work and money for something that may not be profitable enough in their eyes to be worthwhile.

It would still be cool if they did do something with the Japanese version, but I'm not at all surprised that it hasn't happen yet and it may never happen either. I can understand being annoyed or disappointed with TPCI in that regard, but I can't really blame them myself due to the reasons I already mentioned.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Honestly, I'm not surprised that they don't do anything with the Japanese version. While having legal Pokemon subs sounds neat, I don't know if there really is a lot of demand for it compared to most anime or even just other toyetic anime titles. Back when 4Kids was dubbing various series, I would hear people wishing for One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh! and even Sonic X subs, but I don't think that Pokemon subs came up. I think part of that was just how most of 4Kids' dubs of other shows were much more in need of subs. Their dub of Pokemon wasn't one hundred percent accurate either, but it wasn't on the same level as their One Piece or Yu-Gi-Oh! dubs, outside of the early movies and Chronicles I guess.

It would still be cool if they did do something with the Japanese version, but I'm not at all surprised that it hasn't happen yet and it may never happen either. I can understand being annoyed or disappointed with TPCI in that regard, but I can't really blame them myself due to the reasons I already mentioned.

I can fault TPCI to some degree, for the reason that they have had 10+ years now, and they won't put at least some English subbed Japanese Version of the Anime online for the audience that wishes for that (would be nice for Generations to get that treatment, too).

To put this in perspective, even 4KMedia/Konami (aka formerly known as 4Kids) has offered that much for Yu-Gi-Oh (despite that Series' dubs still being a mess to this day) and when 4Kids was around, they had a Toonzaki site where they'd put up Japanese Versions of the Anime they dubbed into English (that included Sonic X, IIRC) in their later years, which I appreciated a lot.

I can't help but wonder if 4Kids would've eventually done the same for Pokemon, had their partnership with TPCI (then known as PUSA/Pokemon USA) turned out differently than it did and not gone South, but we'll never know. While Pokemon is obviously a child-targeted Anime, so I can see TPCI's perspective on the issue that no adult would care for it in Japanese, it's still something they should consider given the demand for it is there, from what I can tell...despite that common belief.

As for 4Kids, I will say that even Chronicles received better treatment dub wise than 4Kids' dubs of One Piece or Yu-Gi-Oh ever had (save for the short-lived 9 episode Uncut release Yu-Gi-Oh had before Kahn cancelled it), solely for the fact that they at least bothered to leave a few Japanese pieces of BGM in there at times, just putting that out there. Not to say that Chronicles a well dubbed spin-off Series, it wasn't, but there's still a few redeeming factors to be found in it vs....well, anything else 4Kids dubbed besides most of the rest of Pokemon & Dinosaur King consistently, really. And hey...at least they bothered to dub most of the Sunday Specials there, as TPCI skipped over a lot of them entirely: something beats nothing, imo.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I can fault TPCI to some degree, for the reason that they have had 10+ years now, and they won't put at least some English subbed Japanese Version of the Anime online for the audience that wishes for that (would be nice for Generations to get that treatment, too).

To put this in perspective, even 4KMedia/Konami (aka formerly known as 4Kids) has offered that much for Yu-Gi-Oh (despite that Series' dubs still being a mess to this day) and when 4Kids was around, they had a Toonzaki site where they'd put up Japanese Versions of the Anime they dubbed into English (that included Sonic X, IIRC) in their later years, which I appreciated a lot.

I can't help but wonder if 4Kids would've eventually done the same for Pokemon, had their partnership with TPCI (then known as PUSA/Pokemon USA) turned out differently than it did and not gone South, but we'll never know. While Pokemon is obviously a child-targeted Anime, so I can see TPCI's perspective on the issue that no adult would care for it in Japanese, it's still something they should consider given the demand for it is there, from what I can tell...despite that common belief.

Like I said, I don't think that the demand for Pokemon subs is all that high. There was demand subs/redubs of a good chuck of other 4Kids shows at the time, but not for Pokemon based on what I remember. I'm not saying that the demand isn't there. I'm just saying that I don't think it's large enough for TPCI to find the work and money put into it worthwhile. Even if things had gone differently for 4Kids and TPCI, I don't know if they would have subbed Pokemon. I don't remember it being listed among some of the shows they were going to subbed, which I think only turned out to be Sonic X and almost all of Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, and I don't know if there would have been legal tape surrounding getting the older episodes either.

They might not think it's necessary due to the success of the Pokemon brand in general either. I suspect one reason why 4K Media is still putting out Yu-Gi-Oh! subs for the various series is because the series is becoming less popular among kids in the U.S. at least. None of the spin-off series have done well for various reasons and Arc V is stuck on Nicktoons. In that case, they might as well try to make more money off the series among older fans who wanted legal subs for a long time and it clearly worked. The Pokemon anime is far from its heyday, but it does pretty well for itself after being on the air for so many years. Not to mention the franchise itself is still quite successful. They don't need to try to appeal to older fans or people who want the Japanese version since the dub does well enough for them. Sure, they've had ten years to do something with the Japanese version, but if they're satisfied with appealing to kids with the dub and they don't think that the demand for legal subs is worth the money and work put into subs, then I don't hold it against them. Although, it helps that I never really thought of Pokemon legal subs being a thing regardless of who was in charge of the dub.

As for 4Kids, I will say that even Chronicles received better treatment dub wise than 4Kids' dubs of One Piece or Yu-Gi-Oh ever had (save for the short-lived 9 episode Uncut release Yu-Gi-Oh had before Kahn cancelled it), solely for the fact that they at least bothered to leave a few Japanese pieces of BGM in there at times, just putting that out there. Not to say that Chronicles a well dubbed spin-off Series, it wasn't, but there's still a few redeeming factors to be found in it vs....well, anything else 4Kids dubbed besides most of the rest of Pokemon & Dinosaur King consistently, really. And hey...at least they bothered to dub most of the Sunday Specials there, as TPCI skipped over a lot of them entirely: something beats nothing, imo.

I'm not a fan of TPCI skipping the specials either, especially when it does mean kids may not see some characters that they like again, but I don't know if having bad dubs is better than nothing in this case.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Like I said, I don't think that the demand for Pokemon subs is all that high. There was demand subs/redubs of a good chuck of other 4Kids shows at the time, but not for Pokemon based on what I remember. I'm not saying that the demand isn't there. I'm just saying that I don't think it's large enough for TPCI to find the work and money put into it worthwhile. Even if things had gone differently for 4Kids and TPCI, I don't know if they would have subbed Pokemon. I don't remember it being listed among some of the shows they were going to subbed, which I think only turned out to be Sonic X and almost all of Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's, and I don't know if there would have been legal tape surrounding getting the older episodes either.

They might not think it's necessary due to the success of the Pokemon brand in general either. I suspect one reason why 4K Media is still putting out Yu-Gi-Oh! subs for the various series is because the series is becoming less popular among kids in the U.S. at least. None of the spin-off series have done well for various reasons and Arc V is stuck on Nicktoons. In that case, they might as well try to make more money off the series among older fans who wanted legal subs for a long time and it clearly worked. The Pokemon anime is far from its heyday, but it does pretty well for itself after being on the air for so many years. Not to mention the franchise itself is still quite successful. They don't need to try to appeal to older fans or people who want the Japanese version since the dub does well enough for them. Sure, they've had ten years to do something with the Japanese version, but if they're satisfied with appealing to kids with the dub and they don't think that the demand for legal subs is worth the money and work put into subs, then I don't hold it against them. Although, it helps that I never really thought of Pokemon legal subs being a thing regardless of who was in charge of the dub.

I'm not a fan of TPCI skipping the specials either, especially when it does mean kids may not see some characters that they like again, but I don't know if having bad dubs is better than nothing in this case.

Regarding the shows they had subbed, this was a few years after 4Kids lost the rights to Pokemon and a little before the company died out, to clarify that- I'm saying in a hypothetical scenario, but I still did appreciate that effort...just made me curious if it would've been possible. Legal issues could've absolutely arisen, though, IIRC Shunsuke Kazama (Yugi/Yami's seiyu) had a dispute about his voice being used or something with Yu-Gi-Oh subs: we'll never know, really.

Makes sense, I can see your points when you put it that way: Dogasu has brought it up before, so that's what brought the concept to my attention when he said, "If we just had a legal (keyhole) version of this Series, the amount of complaining would go down drastically" or something to that effect a while back.

I don't approve of the way Chronicles dub was handled, don't get me wrong, but I prefer a bad dub to no dub in the end myself- purely subjective, though, you can feel free to disagree. I just find at least putting in some degree of work, is worthy of a bit of merit, in my book.

 

[Galactic_V]

I never understood the last pun in the Hinamatsuri episode in the West. The Japanese version is straightfoward and knowing what the festival means is enough, but the western version?

As a kid I remembered this epi reminded me of those WTF cartoon endings, like the entire thing is real and the final scene is all nonsense for whatever reason. (A Looney Tunes cartoon comes to mind, the boy mistreats his dog, gets grounded, dreams about himself being one, wakes up and after apologizing to the animal, the dog itself reveals to be dreaming too).
I'm scared until today of those XDDD