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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

Possibly, but I'm just curious why it is a decision made at all if the newer name isn't to make it American.

Well and on the anime side you have Otoshi from Bad to the Bone who's original name was Saizo.
Part of me wonders if they ever considered naming that guy Satoshi as an in-joke/easter egg.

There was a moment in the last season of Yugioh when Mana refers to her bird (nameless in the Japanese version) as Anzu (Tea's Japanese name), and I'll admit despite not caring at all for the 4Kids dub of that show, I geeked out a little when I heard it.
 
Part of me wonders if they ever considered naming that guy Satoshi as an in-joke/easter egg.

There was a moment in the last season of Yugioh when Mana refers to her bird (nameless in the Japanese version) as Anzu (Tea's Japanese name), and I'll admit despite not caring at all for the 4Kids dub of that show, I geeked out a little when I heard it.
Wow I thought you were kidding but yeah 4kids liked to add bizarre Easter eggs in their dubs.
 
Wow I thought you were kidding but yeah 4kids liked to add bizarre Easter eggs in their dubs.
I'm a big fan of the their dub of Yugioh and somehow I missed that(probably because it comes from my least favorite season of the entire show and it's easy for me to forget most of what happens in it LOL)despite watching the show all the way through at least twice.
 
There was a moment in the last season of Yugioh when Mana refers to her bird (nameless in the Japanese version) as Anzu (Tea's Japanese name), and I'll admit despite not caring at all for the 4Kids dub of that show, I geeked out a little when I heard it.
Yooooo I remember that lol
 
I wonder the why mindset? I guess the more rescored the more residual checks?
That could be part of it, but I also know there's also a slowly dying but in many ways still enduring mindset that Americans (especially American kids) can't handle more than a few seconds of silence in media or they'll get bored and change the channel or something. Hence the constant droning wall-to-wall music, and it partially explains why so many old dubs of foreign media added extra dialogue and/or sound effects to what were originally bits of silence whenever they could get away with it as well.
Possibly, but I'm just curious why it is a decision made at all if the newer name isn't to make it American.

Well and on the anime side you have Otoshi from Bad to the Bone who's original name was Saizo.
Most likely because even when a character is so overtly foreign that their name can't be convincingly Americanized, there's still a desire to (bluntly speaking) dumb their name down for American audiences. They probably want to make the name pronunciations self-evident from an Anglo-American perspective, which means getting rid of the most foreign sounds like the "ky" in "Kyo" and the "sai" in "Saizo" (which could easily be mispronounced as "say", like what happened with "Saiyan" in DBZ). You'd think in the anime's case it could be rectified by simply directing the voice actors to pronounce the names correctly, but that didn't even seem to occur to them. "Koga" could also be a result of the Pokémon localizers mostly eschewing the plant-themed naming convention of most of the human characters (the biggest exception being the professors, of course) in favor of names relating to their type specialty and/or occupation all the way until Kalos. "Koga" is a rather stereotypical ninja name originating from a historical ninja clan (ironically, in Japanese Koga is said to descend from the competing Iga clan) so they may have also thought that it fit better with the English naming conventions they established.

I think both the games and anime have gotten a bit better at just retaining the actual Japanese names in those cases since TPCi took over localization (the XYZ ninjas are a good example) though there are still several examples of the old practice rearing its ugly head, like Legends Arceus (granted, a few of those are examples of the kind of localization-related in-jokes/easter eggs Yash mentioned).
 
That could be part of it, but I also know there's also a slowly dying but in many ways still enduring mindset that Americans (especially American kids) can't handle more than a few seconds of silence in media or they'll get bored and change the channel or something. Hence the constant droning wall-to-wall music, and it partially explains why so many old dubs of foreign media added extra dialogue and/or sound effects to what were originally bits of silence whenever they could get away with it as well.

Most likely because even when a character is so overtly foreign that their name can't be convincingly Americanized, there's still a desire to (bluntly speaking) dumb their name down for American audiences. They probably want to make the name pronunciations self-evident from an Anglo-American perspective, which means getting rid of the most foreign sounds like the "ky" in "Kyo" and the "sai" in "Saizo" (which could easily be mispronounced as "say", like what happened with "Saiyan" in DBZ). You'd think in the anime's case it could be rectified by simply directing the voice actors to pronounce the names correctly, but that didn't even seem to occur to them. "Koga" could also be a result of the Pokémon localizers mostly eschewing the plant-themed naming convention of most of the human characters (the biggest exception being the professors, of course) in favor of names relating to their type specialty and/or occupation all the way until Kalos. "Koga" is a rather stereotypical ninja name originating from a historical ninja clan (ironically, in Japanese Koga is said to descend from the competing Iga clan) so they may have also thought that it fit better with the English naming conventions they established.

I think both the games and anime have gotten a bit better at just retaining the actual Japanese names in those cases since TPCi took over localization (the XYZ ninjas are a good example) though there are still several examples of the old practice rearing its ugly head, like Legends Arceus (granted, a few of those are examples of the kind of localization-related in-jokes/easter eggs Yash mentioned).
I noticed with SM they've been doing better with the kept names, though with some changes from time to time. With HZ, they've kept most names intact, with only some barely changed like Zirc, Onia, Orla and Ludlow.
 
The 4Kids Flashback interview with former 4Kids music producer John Siegler is available to the public now.

I highly recommend you guys listen to what he has to say at the 37:00 mark. Sheds a lot of light into the mentality 4Kids had when replacing music for Pokémon in particular.

The underscoring, for even – from the minute 4Kids started making Pokémon shows, the concept was that we were gonna keep certain basic parts of the original Japanese music, and we were gonna replace as much of the rest of it as we could, and it was purely... Well, I won't say purely. It was a business decision. The music was an – you know, an income source. And it was an important income source because it helped to pay for the whole production. And, so, I think we kept a – if I remember, a quarter to a third... Like, there were certain cues in the Japanese music that we always used. Like, if they were walking somewhere, they were going somewhere, you'd always hear that little piece of music, right? And, uh, there were some battle cues that we used. But... So, the other side of that was that a lot of that music we didn't like. It wasn't... We didn't feel that it was right for the American audience. [...] It's a different thing. And, so, the other idea was, that we would rescore the shows... And again, my buddy Ralph Shuckett was an important part of this. Because he kind of created the – or the basic idea of what we called "cinematic cartoon scoring". Which was orchestral in nature... Not always, but orchestral in nature, and... [...] So, that was the genesis of that sound. And so... it wasn't that the Japanese music was bad, it just wasn't – we didn't feel [it was] right for American kids, that it needed to be more energetic, it needed to be more intense. And there was some cheesy, kind of faux-rock, Japanese rock kind of stuff.


I've always wondered if there's been some clause in the contract that the dub, whether it's 4Kids or TPCi, has to keep at least a certain amount of original BGM per-season, otherwise I don't understand why these guys didn't just replace 100% of the score each episode.

I'm not saying I'd have preferred that or anything- but it's clear these guys didn't have any artistic integrity nor respect for the original work. If it really was just about money, why not replace as much as possible, i.e. the entire runtime? Did they really like the Route 01 music and Team Rocket's motto theme that much that they decided those were okay to keep, even if it meant less residuals?

I have not watched the Horizons dub- almost entirely because of the score- how much BGM is kept per episode?
 
I've always wondered if there's been some clause in the contract that the dub, whether it's 4Kids or TPCi, has to keep at least a certain amount of original BGM per-season, otherwise I don't understand why these guys didn't just replace 100% of the score each episode.

I'm not saying I'd have preferred that or anything- but it's clear these guys didn't have any artistic integrity nor respect for the original work. If it really was just about money, why not replace as much as possible, i.e. the entire runtime? Did they really like the Route 01 music and Team Rocket's motto theme that much that they decided those were okay to keep, even if it meant less residuals?

I have not watched the Horizons dub- almost entirely because of the score- how much BGM is kept per episode?
There was a similar contract with the video game Sonic CD, to date it's the only Sonic game to get a new soundtrack for the U.S. release(primarily due to many of the original stage themes featuring a lot of samples of actual music artists that would've required Sega of America to go through a ton of legal red tape to get clearance for so it was easier for them to just make completely new themes) and each stage had new themes for the Present, Bad Future and Good Future versions of levels while the Past themes were left intact, I inquired about that on the Sonic sub-reddit and someone on there mentioned that in addition to the past themes being encoded differently(via PCM which would make it more difficult to replace then the other level themes)there was also a stipulation that at least some of the original music had to be kept.

I would strongly disagree about them not having artistic integrity though as the Japanese composers were really happy with the music 4Kids came up with for the 1st movie(with some of them even being moved to tears by one of the themes). My guess is those themes were kept because they were the most "Western" sounding of the original themes(I personally had no idea those themes were in the original version until several years ago)so they wouldn't sound out of place to kids unlike some original anime soundtracks(I.E. Kikuchi DBZ score, Yugioh OST). Also I don't think they necessarily didn't respect the original work, from the podcasts the general notion seems to be the like the original score but they didn't think US audiences would gel with it as much as Japanese audiences did due to how animated US shows are typically scored and I can see their POV even if they did admittedly replace a bit too much of the music in the beginning of the show's run, though they did thankfully cool it on that once they found their footing.
 
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The idea of changing the dub score in order to make it sound more western in order to appeal to kids feels so strange to me because I don't really remember paying that much attention to background music of the shows I watched when I was little. That isn't to say that a show's score isn't important, but just that it wasn't really something I really noticed when I was in the dub's target demographic. Maybe that isn't typical of how other kids watch shows and maybe they didn't want the dub to stand out too much from other cartoon series kids could watch, but it just feels like making an problem out of nothing.
 
I would strongly disagree about them not having artistic integrity though as the Japanese composers were really happy with the music 4Kids came up with for the 1st movie(with some of them even being moved to tears by one of the themes).

When did Shinji Miyazaki ever say this? Do you have a link to the interview or social media post where this statement was allegedly made?
 
When did Shinji Miyazaki ever say this? Do you have a link to the interview or social media post where this statement was allegedly made?
I read that in an interview around a decade ago, unfortunately i'm currently having no luck finding a link to it. I'll definitely keep an eye out though and see if perhaps someone on the Pokemon sub-reddit can find it.
 
I've always wondered if there's been some clause in the contract that the dub, whether it's 4Kids or TPCi, has to keep at least a certain amount of original BGM per-season, otherwise I don't understand why these guys didn't just replace 100% of the score each episode.

I'm not saying I'd have preferred that or anything- but it's clear these guys didn't have any artistic integrity nor respect for the original work. If it really was just about money, why not replace as much as possible, i.e. the entire runtime? Did they really like the Route 01 music and Team Rocket's motto theme that much that they decided those were okay to keep, even if it meant less residuals?

I have not watched the Horizons dub- almost entirely because of the score- how much BGM is kept per episode?
Isn't the horizons dub mostly rescored?
 
When did Shinji Miyazaki ever say this? Do you have a link to the interview or social media post where this statement was allegedly made?
I think they are referring to what a dub composer said about their music from the Japanese side...
 
Isn't the horizons dub mostly rescored?
Yes. Though they did keep 2 track. The Pokémon center jingle from episode 3 and that opening track from episode 5. So, it definitely screams contractual that they would keep those few tracks. Maybe later on we might hear more or not. Gonna keep an ear out on them.
 
When did Shinji Miyazaki ever say this? Do you have a link to the interview or social media post where this statement was allegedly made?
He didn't; I'm pretty sure he's referring to Norman J. Grossfeld claiming on the Mewtwo movie's commentary track that the "Japanese creators" were "moved to tears themselves" by the scene with the Pokémon crying when they watched a screening of the dub, despite the fact that 4Kids had "redone the music and redone the performance". There's been a bit of a broken telephone effect with how people retell this story, and for all we know it was just a tall tale Mr. Grossfeld made up, but there is a supposed grain of truth to it, at least.
 
I see some people here are theorizing about kept music in Pokémon being a contractual obligation; I used to think that might have been the reason and maybe it was with some of the movies (Eric Stuart even suggested that could have been the case for them) but after all the episodes we've gotten since with not a single track kept, I highly doubt it's a big contributing factor at all now, to say the least. The Pokémon Center jingle and main Pokémon theme are probably just still considered too iconic/recognizable/beloved to consistently replace (and/or they couldn't think of anything "better" for those instances), plus the Pokémon Center jingle is really more of a sound effect than a proper music track.

Now I wonder if anyone can interview anyone from TPCI to ask them about anything. Doesn't have to be about music
Good luck with that; nowadays they're pretty much as big of a brick wall as it gets. Even during that one Comic-Con panel they did recently (I'm still surprised that even happened) they didn't take any questions.
 
I see some people here are theorizing about kept music in Pokémon being a contractual obligation; I used to think that might have been the reason and maybe it was with some of the movies (Eric Stuart even suggested that could have been the case for them) but after all the episodes we've gotten since with not a single track kept, I highly doubt it's a big contributing factor at all now, to say the least. The Pokémon Center jingle and main Pokémon theme are probably just still considered too iconic/recognizable/beloved to consistently replace (and/or they couldn't think of anything "better" for those instances), plus the Pokémon Center jingle is really more of a sound effect than a proper music track.


Good luck with that; nowadays they're pretty much as big of a brick wall as it gets. Even during that one Comic-Con panel they did recently (I'm still surprised that even happened) they didn't take any questions.
Then we gotta hope they attend another con soon. I know this community has alot of questions they want answered.
 
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