DISCUSSION: Journey Fic Discussion

[CrystaI]

^ Exactly what I had described in my previous second post. I guess my post was just too long for anyone to read up to the final.

The problem lies in the portrayal than being the problem of existence of such stereotypes.

 

[Echoing Shadows]

Eyup. Glad to see we think similarly with regards to that matter.

 

[AceTrainer14]

What bugs me about the "being the very best" motivation is that in practice you just don't see it in the character. They don't crave the spotlight, they don't revel in the glory of victory, sometimes they don't even seem to know very much about what they're supposed to be passionate about. The reason for the journey becomes an excuse because it's so quickly pushed aside and forgotten about

But does wanting to succeed mean the same as wanting to be famous or being exceptionally knowledgeable? I've nevever really viewed 'being the best' as being synonmous with craving the spotlight. I think if your story was just about someone who desired to be famous and partied every time they won it would be a bit tiresome to read and was so amazing at battles that they effortlessly won everything would be both one dimensional and rather tiresome to read.

 

[Beth Pavell]

But does wanting to succeed mean the same as wanting to be famous or being exceptionally knowledgeable?

Well, when pokémon training is written as a highly popular sport I would expect there to be an element of that in there somewhere - and if that's not part of the character's motivation, then why not. The point is that there's an inherent contradiction in being told that this character has been sooo looking forward to this moment where they become a trainer, and they then have no idea about the theory of battle strategy. Or they insist that they want to keep winning, but the reader is never told why - it's just assumed that winning is enough, 'cause that's what you do in the games.

Like a lot of picking holes in ideas to see if they make sense, it offers more opportunities than restrictions. If I were going to write a "be the very best" character, the first thing I'd do is work in an arc where they find out that all the armchair strategising they used to do while watching the tournaments doesn't work out the way the assume it would. You could do a similar thing with finding out that the Champion spotlight is more stressful and tiring than it's cracked up to be (How many rags-to-riches pop stars find that out the hard way).

None of that is necessary to make the stock "be the very best" motivation work. It could be done a different way. It should at least be acknowledged, whatever it is, even if it doesn't take centre stage. In this context, it's a basic building block of the character

 

[AceTrainer14]

Interesting ideas. I do think that the fame element would have to depend on how you write about the tournament - is it a mandatory thing children have to go to, is it a niche or unpopular sport in your world (think of Unova and Team Plasma's initial plan - would you still want to train Pokemon if a great deal of people were turning against it?). I don't think Pokemon training has to be connected with fame, and that characters could simply do it out of a desire to train Pokemon or what not - but I do agree that the motivation, whatever it is, should be made clear.

Which raises another question: do people here think that the character's motivation has to be stated upfront at/near the top of the story, or do you prefer a slow draw out of the reasons why over the course of the story - perhaps they aren't even clear of why they left until the very end.

 

[Beth Pavell]

Well that raises an important point, that in a fantasy world you can take far less for granted. The worldbuilding will inform plot and character (And vice versa), and in order for it to make sense you have to tell/show the reader

Which raises another question: do people here think that the character's motivation has to be stated upfront at/near the top of the story, or do you prefer a slow draw out of the reasons why over the course of the story - perhaps they aren't even clear of why they left until the very end.

I would be surprised to find a story that could get away without describing any motivation at all. I think it's a perfectly good strategy to develop, expound or reveal more of it as the story goes on

 

[CrystaI]

"To be the very best" to not the same as to become famous, and also vice verse, to become famous is in fact doesn't need one to become the best of all. I can find many different characters from many other non-Pokemon franchise where one wanted to be the best of something, but really detest to become well-known by many (But yet, they still became famous unreluctantly and willy-nilly).

If "To be the very best" is the motivation of a character, I would expect one to be knowledgeable in that field where one is into it, if not then at least possess a passion or enthusiasm which will drives one to know more about that field if the character doesn't know anything at the beginning, and eager to put efforts into improving oneself within that field, and utmost of all characteristic traits, the character should feel happy and/or satisfied whenever one achieved something significant, no need to go have big celebration or brag about it, but at least he/she will put on a contented smile whenever such things are mentioned.

It is really difficult to believe someone aiming to become top of something, but didn't put the effort to do so. It is like one saying "I'm aiming to get a 1st honour in my university degree", but one never study hard enough to earn one, rather often slacking off in one's free time. Then inside my mind that statement rather reads like: "I wanted to get a 1st honour, but I can't because it is so damn difficult for my current just-passing result". Unless, that someone is Albert Einstein with IQ180. But still, implying something that the character was practically not tended to be through one's action, I then really doubt the authenticity of the aim and motivation of the character.

Which raises another question: do people here think that the character's motivation has to be stated upfront at/near the top of the story, or do you prefer a slow draw out of the reasons why over the course of the story - perhaps they aren't even clear of why they left until the very end.

I will let that depends on the story content and most importantly the characters themselves. Like I said before, aim and motivation is part of the characteristics and personality of a character, hence it will and should reflected automatically through the actions and thinking pattern of the character. Even for the ones that had no aim and motivation to do something, it will also reflected in his/her attitude when doing something.
BTW, I also just wanted to mention, I'm a writer that heavily value characters, sometimes much more than the plot and overworld itself.

In my current journey fic I'm writing, there are two protagonists aiming for the same thing but going in two different routes and two different methods, their personalities are also like polar opposites. One had his motivation (Which is the stereotypical "Aiming to be the best" though) clearly defined at the beginning and he is working towards it, but I planned to had that changed somewhere when story progress to two thirds when something major happened. The other one had his motivation and also the aim/goal unclear at the beginning (more correctly speaking, it was in fact non-existing), but had the ability to go further in the road of Pokemon Battle, so he was advised by someone to take the league challenge where that will not wasted his potential, he does it passively until two-third of the story, where something happened to him that will make him realize his "true goal", making a great changes in his mind.

 

[Persephone]

I think in a story as long as a journey, going without revealing any motivation for the protagonist would get old very fast. Like, there would be no real drama in the plot because I wouldn't know why I should care about any of this.

Now, very well written characters or beautiful prose might be able to tide me over but even then I think it would remain a major flaw in practice.

When I've seen this sort of thing work, it tends to apply to minor characters only and even then by the end of the journey it can get a little old.

 

[Serverus Snope]

Where journeyfics fall down, I think, is usually in a couple of areas. The first is that they're simply rushed. I must have read any amount where the protagonist is rushed through the usual "My x birthday! - My first pokémon! - Bye Mum!" business as fast as possible, often in less than 2,000 words.

As someone who made this exact mistake last year, I can attest to this.

If I tried such a fic again, I would probably make it a different kind of "journey" altogether (like one that has nothing to do with becoming the Champion or Top Coordinator save for it being the goal of a secondary character. It could about an artist traveling the land to build their portfolio or a pilgrimage to Lavender Town. Something like that.) Or maybe a journey within a journey.

 

[CrystaI]

This is a specific part mentioned in the Battle thread. May be it is better to reply it there, but since it is journey fic specific, I shall put it in here.

It seems many writers and readers had some problems with the Pokemon Battles in journey fics. Other than the main problem of how writers had executed it, there are also three other things that many writers had fall into pits. Namely: length, frequency, and purpose. How long does a battle last? How many battles are in a chapter? Why trainers chose to battle at that moment?

It just turns out that so many of the journey fics, there is always something about the battle is not done appropriately. Either battle is unnecessarily too long due to elongated with too many skippable actions, or felt too short because description is not illustrating the battle scene vividly, or too many battles occurring in one chapter, or battles happens too frequently like every single chapter regardless of necessity of plot, and then to the problem of trainers battle with each other just because they are trainers, battle became the only method to resolve a problem where the problem may be something unrelated to battle at all.

In my virgin work, I fell specifically for the last two, battles occurs every single chapters and using battles to resolve whatever problems. And because of that, I planned the plot to be revolved about battles, battle became the prerequisite when I plan the future plot, everything needed to be somehow related to Pokemon Battle.

In hindsight by now, I acknowledged this is really not a good story-planning and story-writing approach. Pokemon Battle is a building block of the culture of PokeUniverse, hence the background setting and world-building, but it is not truly a building block for story planning. It is one major plot device specific to PokeUniverse used to proceed the story, and a tool used by trainer and pokemon characters to express themselves practically. But, it shouldn't be the center of story focus, nor the center of emphasis when one planning the plot. Remember at the end of the day, it will still be the characters who are going to act the plots out. There is a reason for character-driven story to be deemed as better in general than plot-driven, or in this case battle-driven story.

 

[Danny199]

I'm now writing 'Danny's Journey', which takes place in the animé story arc, so it can be put as kind a cliché, but I try to make it different, with new perspectives and overall a more adult look. For example, the age of starting as a trainer has been raised from 10 to 15 due to some heavy stuff what happened to a 10 year old trainer and such. I haven't found a nice Pokémon fic yet, so on that part I can't really talk, but I do know that cliché's are sometimes needed for the plot, how else are you going to have your trainer defeat the gyms? I mean, if he sweeps through them, that wouldn't be fun, so sometimes you have to let win close call, how cliché that might be.

 

[Serverus Snope]

I'm now writing 'Danny's Journey', which takes place in the animé story arc, so it can be put as kind a cliché, but I try to make it different, with new perspectives and overall a more adult look. For example, the age of starting as a trainer has been raised from 10 to 15 due to some heavy stuff what happened to a 10 year old trainer and such. I haven't found a nice Pokémon fic yet, so on that part I can't really talk, but I do know that cliché's are sometimes needed for the plot, how else are you going to have your trainer defeat the gyms? I mean, if he sweeps through them, that wouldn't be fun, so sometimes you have to let win close call, how cliché that might be.

Some pointers on that:

• You may want to look into another title. "_____'s Journey" doesn't tell us much about the story other than that it's about some dude's Pokemon journey... and there's an excess of stories with titles like that.
• Raising the starting age for trainers (and, to a lesser extent, "adult" themes) is actually really common in fanfic and it's rarely, if ever, given a truly justifiable reason. Ten-year-olds in the Japanese regions seem to be able to handle journeys just fine in the actual canon, so why raise the age because of a single incident and unfairly restrict so many people?
• Dramatic tension is important. But if it feels like you're going through the motions too much, people will just sigh and remark, "Gee, I wonder if he's gonna win?"
• One possible approach: If you truly want a "new perspective" on a Pokemon journey, try a different goal. Challenging gyms could be secondary to the protagonist's true goal. Maybe he seeks something other than the title of Pokemon League Champion and he just challenges the gyms to prepare for it/gain clearance to work with other peoples' powerful Pokemon/etc. That way, you could reserve the need for dramatic tension for plot-relevant gym battles.
• Another approach: Maybe the gym leaders aren't the only ones impeding the protagonist's progress. Perhaps he and his Pokemon have trouble cooperating and that keeps them from giving it their all in gym battles. Maybe his failure in spite of extensive preparation is taking a toll on his self-esteem (especially if it was already damaged before he started the journey.) Stuff like that can help add stakes to gym battles; a normally zero-stakes defeat could be devastating in the right (wrong?) circumstances.

 

[Danny199]

* Although it is true that the name 'Danny's Journey' is a little bit odd, it is for a reason. You see, it isn't alone about the main character travelling through the region, it is also about him finding out what caused him to get into that world. Although right now, it is a secondary journey, as he enjoys the trainer live too much, but later on, it will be more of the main subject. So it is actually the journey towards the answers.
*This is mainly due to personal opinion. I just think that, seeing 10 year olds in my neighbourhood, I don't think they can handle that. And after all, it is my fanfiction. The incident will be heared off later on as well.

 

[Misfit Angel]

• Raising the starting age for trainers (and, to a lesser extent, "adult" themes) is actually really common in fanfic and it's rarely, if ever, given a truly justifiable reason. Ten-year-olds in the Japanese regions seem to be able to handle journeys just fine in the actual canon, so why raise the age because of a single incident and unfairly restrict so many people?

Honestly, I think people do it because giving a ten year old child access to creatures that are little more than weapons of mass destruction is one of the dumbest things imaginable. One of the great things about fanfiction is that authors are able to fix the problems of the official media, that should be a justifiable reason alone.

 

[Beth Pavell]

It's about suspension of disbelief. Frankly, there aren't many sixteen year olds trustworthy enough to be left unsupervised for weeks, if not months at a time - but it's easier to push the disbelief aside and accept that than it is with the ten year old journeyman trainer

 

[CrystaI]

When the characters are newbie trainers that doesn't know anything about Pokemon Battle, 10 year old or 15~16 year old, or to a more extreme 60 year old will not make any much difference. Excluding the very obvious physical difference, the only difference between the ages are only the amount of life experience, if they are all of the character of exact same personality and characteristics. I won't even relate age to maturity, because in Real-Life I just knew a lot of people that are old, but mentally very immature. Oppositely, I knew quite a few young children that are so level-headed that you may say they are even more maturer than many adults.

The reason I think many people prefers to increase the starting age of trainers in the fic, is probably due to referring to Real-Life generality regarding on children's mindset, thinking 10 year old (In Real-Life, that is about the average age of 3rd~4th grader) is not competent enough to deal with such dangerous creatures. Such trend is especially significant in English Pokemon fanfic than Japanese Pokemon fanfic.
This is one specific thinking I would like to address, is more about the general distrust towards the youngs. Let just say it, how many parents of nowadays still forbid their primary school children to help cooking dinner, just because "knife is dangerous"? Well the truth is, children may be more skillful than most adult generally expected.

Increase the starting age of the protagonist trainer will not suspend one's disbelief. The key point to suspend one's disbelief is to make the protagonist trainer competent in his/her field of expertise. That is something that will makes me leaning towards more in believing the existence of such young trainer, if not by overall than at the very least, believing in the existence of such protagonist character that can be a trainer because he/she is just such prodigy in Pokemon Battle.
Also, again, this is one of the thing I always say about world-building of Pokemon fanfic. When Pokemon World is not our Real-Life, do not expect 10 year old children leaving home is something of absolute absurdity, because in that fantasy world filled with monster creatures non-existed in Real-Life, it is oppositely something of normality.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I don't care if the kid in question is shown to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of pokémon, sound budget discipline and a good head for survival skills. I'm not going to believe it, because I know that kids don't have the capacity for that kind of responsible thinking. People don't just grow up through learned behaviour, there are also broad patterns of development - the most obvious being adolescence.

I'm sorry, but you can't just brush anything off by declaring "Oh, 'cause pokémon". That's just ignoring the issue and expecting the reader to accept it because the author says so - very nearly the opposite of worldbuilding. You have explain why the presence of pokémon means that kids will be competent enough to look after themselves without any supervision for weeks at a time.

 

[CrystaI]

It is not "Because of Pokemon", it is more about "Because it is a world with different life style and moral standard than our Real-Life world".

I do acknowledge the fact of regardless of the universe, we the readers and authors expected human beings is still human beings. And because of that, many expected the human being in an imaginery fantasy world will act in the exact same manner as the human being in our Real-Life world.

However, I would also like to suggest, even in terms of Real-Life world, human beings from different cultural backgrounds behave very differently and will react differently towards the same issue. British don't live the same life as the Chinese, not even the same as the American despite they are both the white ethnic. Even it is human from the exact same country, they behave very different in different historical era, due to the different environment and different social attitude compare to what we had now. I don't think the British of nowadays is anything comparable to British of 500 years ago. Therefore, even it is universally being "human", one shouldn't expect every human beings in fiction will have the exact same thinking pattern as of human of nowadays, especially the ones within our current nearby surrounding.

If you don't believe in young children learned to take care of themselves because their community and surrounding environment prompt them to do so from the day they start to learn ABC, that is your problem. The Pokemon World culture is already there for reader to suspend one's disbelief.

Though, sometimes I do agree, is that the canon never clearly portrayed such culture in black and white writings. Therefore in my current journey fic that I'm working on, I included a RPG-game-manual-like introduction preface about this fantasy world, stating explicityly that this world have such cultures based on Pokemon, in order to establish a mindset in the reader's brain that this is not Real-Life before one even start reading my fic. And from time-to-time throughout the story, I planned to include the background information about the culture of this world which will constantly reassure the reader's mind that this is not Real-Life,

 

[Beth Pavell]

There's a limit to how far you can expect readers to suspend disbelief, even if the story is a fantasy. Everyone's threshold is different, fine - which is why you can'd just make blanket statements like: "Increase the starting age of the protagonist trainer will not suspend one's disbelief." as if it's true of everybody, because it's not

 

[AceTrainer14]

I think that if you are going to have parents willingly let their ten year olds go out alone in a world inhabited by dangerous animals and fairly active criminals, you have to give some reason in-world for why it is ok. You can't argue that it's a different society and not explain what that society is. Most parents/adults in-canon are fairly irresponsible and don't actually care very much for the welfare of their child. Delia Ketchum doesn't seem all that fussed three criminals have been hounding her son for years. I think ignoring that it is a potential issue simply because the anime/games do is denying adding layers to your story.

I think that if you are doing a tamer, slice of life piece without criminals organisations and Pokemon are all nicely behaved, I think it is fine to accept the idea of 10 year olds traveling the world alone, but most stories feel the need to go big without much reason. I think 13 or over is a more acceptable and logical age to let kids travel: most parents in our world would be fine with their children being out without much explanation at that age since it is more normal for teenagers to have looser rules as opposed to small children.