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Kanto/Johto Sequels

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Since ORAS were announced, there have been several discussions about the idea of re-remaking Generation I, and it seems that many fans agree that a new story would be better than retreating the old one yet again. This is reinforced by Game Freak's decision to re-release the original games for the 20th anniversary.

While Kanto got revisited via the Johto games, it was changed without really being fleshed upon and the experience felt brief, so there is plenty of potential left for sequels focusing on Kanto (not to mention that even HGSS are starting to show their age). In my opinion, the fundamental aspect of a good sequel is its story, which is why I found B2W2 disappointing relative to their predecessors. For some reason, most people seem to think that the story of any region is confined to the associated villainous team, as if Kanto couldn't be revisited without Team Rocket being involved again. I would find it very forced if Team Rocket were resurrected for the second time, and it really shouldn't be that hard to think of a new direction using elements from the original games. Little was done plot-wise with Kanto and Johto legendaries in the original games or remakes, hence the lingering mystery about their exact origin stories and roles in the world.

I was originally in favor of revisiting Kanto (in Generation VII) and Johto (in a later generation) separately since I didn't see a way to flesh out both regions in the same games (GSC and HGSS clearly focused on Johto rather than Kanto), and I didn't want Johto to be tacked onto the post-game. But there are two important factors to bear in mind:

1. Kanto sequels would naturally be compared to HGSS. Many people might feel that even an expanded Kanto falls short of HGSS' map.

2. Generation I Pokémon have already been highlighted in the past generation far more than their Generation II counterparts, despite Kanto itself not being revisited in a modern way. It would arguably feel excessive to focus just on Kanto in the secondary Generation VII versions.

I wouldn't be surprised if GSC were given the VC treatment next year, with Generation II critters being added to Go. In that way, both 2016 and 2017 could lead very nicely to joint Kanto/Johto sequels in early or late 2018. Such games could very well transition Go gamers back to the main series, assuming that those people have fond memories of Kanto and/or Johto.

But how might both regions be treated equally in sequels? The idea is to wrap up both rather than leaving a taste for more, considering the franchise's age and how many other regions there are. It isn't realistic to expect Game Freak to give us two games in a single package, but I have two alternative ideas:

1. The simpler approach: Have the main story take place in half of Kanto and half of Johto, with some new areas behind Mt. Silver. A possible assortment of towns/cities: Viridian, Pewter, Vermilion, Saffron+Celadon, Lavender, Blackthorn, Mahogany, Ecruteak, Violet and Azalea (with 2-3 additions, especially for the beginning). The main journey would work without going through the rest of the regions until the post-game, and the story would capitalize on the contrast between Kanto's metropolitanism (which was even extended to Lavender in GSC) and Johto's traditionalism.

2. The more ambitious approach: Make the main setting of one version Kanto (leaving Johto for the post-game) and switch it around for the second version, resulting in major version differences akin to Fire Emblem Fates. Both versions would show different perspectives of a multi-faceted story converging in the post-game. Like Fire Emblem Fates, DLC might be utilized to unlock the scenario of the opposite version (paying $20 instead of another $40), and either way the non-DLC post-game would explain the main events of both scenarios.

I think that either approach would result in a much more satisfying two-region experience than HGSS provided. The first approach would be easier for Game Freak and cheaper for the players, but it might not fit Game Freak's idea of a regional journey (which isn't necessarily a drawback, as the mixed structure would feel fresh and still capitalize on Kanto and Johto's differences). The second approach would require a longer development cycle, but it would be more lucrative for Game Freak without being unfair to players. Both regions would be explorable in either version without DLC, and those looking for the full story experience still wouldn't need to buy another version.

Which would you prefer?

Clarification: This thread was originally just about Kanto sequels for Generation VII, but it is now about about both Kanto and Johto. The shift in discussion starts from page 14.
 
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I agree that all the regions need to be fleshed out more, especially Kanto. But Gamefreak seems so stuck in their badge quest/villainous team formula. After B2/W2, I'm not sure if they could make satisfying sequels for Kanto.

I would like to see them expand on the Mew/Mewtwo story, though. Preferably without any more references to mega evolution. The last thing Mew needs is a mega evolution.
 
I agree that all the regions need to be fleshed out more, especially Kanto. But Gamefreak seems so stuck in their badge quest/villainous team formula. After B2/W2, I'm not sure if they could make satisfying sequels for Kanto.
I don't know what they'd do with sequels, but I'd rather give them a chance than just see Kanto become either forgotten or further rehashed. The other alternative is to let another medium (an adventure game or an Origins-like adaptation) flesh out the older stories, but even then, I would think that Game Freak would want a connection to the current games.

I would like to see them expand on the Mew/Mewtwo story, though. Preferably without any more references to mega evolution. The last thing Mew needs is a mega evolution.
I agree that Mega Evolution should stop being relevant to the story after this generation, as it is merely a gameplay element. That said, I am not against giving Mewtwo a Mega Evolution that is actually well designed (with minor changes from the original design), and the same could go for Mew. It wouldn't need to affect anything about the backstory.
 
I think trying to connect the dots between the games' storylines is asking for trouble. Because then you have to deal with various contradictions in the storylines such as Mew vs. Arceus and the origin of Mega Evolutions. I do like your idea for the storyline though, and I would like to see those aspects of the plot expanded on. And I think getting rid of Team Rocket is a bad idea too since they're an integral part of the Kanto experience.

Also, putting Kanto in a two region game is basically repeating GSCHGSS' mistake, you can't really flesh out Kanto if you have to make room for something else. I want Kanto to feel like a full, modern region like Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, and Kalos (well more Hoenn and Sinnoh, but you get the idea).
 
I think trying to connect the dots between the games' storylines is asking for trouble. Because then you have to deal with various contradictions in the storylines such as Mew vs. Arceus and the origin of Mega Evolutions.
I don't see the contradictions you speak of. Arceus allegedly created the universe, but that doesn't explain how other Pokémon were born (apart from the Creation and Lake trios, and as it happens, Heatran). The Mega Stones have separate origins in Kalos and Hoenn; they aren't actually the same stones.

Plus, if anything contradictions are the result of keeping the regions isolated. How would logical connections create contradictions?

And I think getting rid of Team Rocket is a bad idea too since they're an integral part of the Kanto experience.
I am not saying that Giovanni and the executives shouldn't appear again, but as the villains? The idea is pretty cringeworthy when the more logical outcome is for those characters to actually develop and learn from their mistakes.

Also, putting Kanto in a two region game is basically repeating GSCHGSS' mistake, you can't really flesh out Kanto if you have to make room for something else. I want Kanto to feel like a full, modern region like Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, and Kalos (well more Hoenn and Sinnoh, but you get the idea).
I never said anything about a two-region game. What I was getting at is that the Kanto sequels would also continue plot threads from the Generation VII region.
 
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I don't see the contradictions you speak of. Arceus allegedly created the universe, but that doesn't explain how other Pokémon were born (apart from the Creation and Lake trios, and as it happens, Heatran).

What kind of creator of the universe doesn't create other Pokemon? It doesn't really make sense.

The Mega Stones have separate origins in Kalos and Hoenn; they aren't actually the same stones.

Well we know there is some overlap, Mega Blaziken is in both regions, some of the 3rd gen Megas are almost certainly going to exist in ORAS too. So it's not really that separate.

Plus, if anything contradictions are the result of keeping the regions isolated. How would logical connections create contradictions?

Because it's not always easy to create logical connections between isolated storylines.

I am not saying that Giovanni and the executives shouldn't appear again, but as the villains again? The idea is pretty cringeworthy when the more logical outcome is to see have those characters actually develop and learn from their mistakes.

Giovanni and Archer are out, yes, but to throw away the entire team because of that? That would be a waste of potential, and you'd be throwing away a huge part of Kanto's identity. I could see Ariana staying and maybe Proton and Petrel. They could also bring back Gideon from FRLG (the scientist that steals the Sapphire from you on the Sevii Islands).
 
New towns/locations is a must for me.

Also, since it'd be post-Gen II, wouldn't they have to make Johto accessible too?
 
I am not saying that Giovanni and the executives shouldn't appear again, but as the villains again? The idea is pretty cringeworthy when the more logical outcome is to see have those characters actually develop and learn from their mistakes.

Giovanni and Archer are out, yes, but to throw away the entire team because of that? That would be a waste of potential, and you'd be throwing away a huge part of Kanto's identity. I could see Ariana staying and maybe Proton and Petrel. They could also bring back Gideon from FRLG (the scientist that steals the Sapphire from you on the Sevii Islands).
How about, instead of retreading Team Rocket as a whole, We get some Team Rocket Anime and Manga-exclusive characters to form an entirely new team based on the ashes of both iterations of Team Rocket? That way, we still have some form of Team Rocket to keep Kanto from losing a huge part of its identity, while at the same time keeping the Team Rocket of the game universe from getting stale by rehashing it!

I don't know what the ramifications of the Jessie, James, and Meowth forming a new evil team in the games would have for the Anime though. Anyone got any ideas to get around that?
 
What kind of creator of the universe doesn't create other Pokemon? It doesn't really make sense.
"From itself again, three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be. The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep..."

There is nothing here about creating more Pokémon. Arceus merely set the wheels in motion for the world to evolve without its direct involvement.

Well we know there is some overlap, Mega Blaziken is in both regions, some of the 3rd gen Megas are almost certainly going to exist in ORAS too. So it's not really that separate.
But nothing says that the stones are unique. Why can't there be more than one Blazikenite (which is a poor example since it isn't even found in Kalos)?

Because it's not always easy to create logical connections between isolated storylines.
I am not saying that the connections should be forced, but we should see more of them when they make sense.

Giovanni and Archer are out, yes, but to throw away the entire team because of that? That would be a waste of potential, and you'd be throwing away a huge part of Kanto's identity. I could see Ariana staying and maybe Proton and Petrel. They could also bring back Gideon from FRLG (the scientist that steals the Sapphire from you on the Sevii Islands).
So what would be the point? Resurrecting Team Rocket yet again only to have not one but two leaders absent? Had Ariana wanted to replace Giovanni, she could have done it as soon as Archer gave up. She was practically Archer's equal to begin with (with more appearances under her belt), so I don't see what would be so interesting about her being the leader.

Kanto deserves to have a new take on its identity. Again, the Team Rocket characters can return anyway.

Kallyle said:
How about, instead of retreading Team Rocket as a whole, We get some Team Rocket Anime and Manga-exclusive characters to form an entirely new team based on the ashes of both iterations of Team Rocket? That way, we still have some form of Team Rocket to keep Kanto from losing a huge part of its identity, while at the same time keeping the Team Rocket of the game universe from getting stale by rehashing it!
I don't see a need to bring other canons into this. I suppose that Ariana, Proton, Petrel and Gideon could join another team, but I don't see any of them leading it.

I don't know what the ramifications of the Jessie, James, and Meowth forming a new evil team in the games would have for the Anime though. Anyone got any ideas to get around that?
The games have pretty much never had any ramifications on Team Rocket in the anime. I do think that the trio could show up in sequels due to Yellow, but if anything they're the last characters who would still be up to no good with Giovanni gone (which could explain their absence from the Johto games).
 
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How about, instead of retreading Team Rocket as a whole, We get some Team Rocket Anime and Manga-exclusive characters to form an entirely new team based on the ashes of both iterations of Team Rocket? That way, we still have some form of Team Rocket to keep Kanto from losing a huge part of its identity, while at the same time keeping the Team Rocket of the game universe from getting stale by rehashing it!

I don't know what the ramifications of the Jessie, James, and Meowth forming a new evil team in the games would have for the Anime though. Anyone got any ideas to get around that?

Interesting idea, but I don't think they'd add in manga characters. That is a good point though, they'll probably want to add new characters, and in fact having a new character lead the new team is probably a better idea than one of the older ones.

Also, since it'd be post-Gen II, wouldn't they have to make Johto accessible too?

I'd rather see Johto get its own sequel and develop its own identity (I have some ideas on how to go about doing this, but that's a completely different topic).

Actually, I think this would make the new team idea better off in the long run because of the fact that Kanto and Johto shared the same evil team. In the sequels they could simply have the remnants of Team Rocket join the new teams (Gideon could join Kanto's team and Ariana, Proton, and Petrel could join Johto's). Although if they did that they would have to draw a clear connection back to Team Rocket, I don't think the older fans would be very accepting on the idea of a new team unless it calls back to Team Rocket in a big way.

Anyway, here's some other things I'd like to see in a sequel:

-A new set of areas to the north. I'm thinking it would start with a cliffside route (a la Rt. 47 and Kalos Rt. 8) and head north, then eventually loop around to Mt. Moon (which I'm thinking would make a great setting for the storyline's climax). No idea what other kinds of areas they could do here because IDK what that area of Japan is like. There would be at least one gym in this area and it would replace Sabrina's (who of course left for Pokestar Studios in BW2). I'm thinking a double battle Fighting type gym with Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan as mains, with the leaders having trained in the Fighting Dojo in Saffron City.

-Expand on some of the changes made in HGSS. Pokemon Tower may be gone, but House of Memories would make a good substitute, and possibly a more interesting one. Cinnibar Island is just begging to be an explorable volcano. And then they need to do something with that building that's been in construction in Vermillion City for years.

-In the south, they could go for a nice Pokemon the Movie 2000 with each of the birds having their own island. Articuno is perfect right where he is in Seafoam Islands. Cinnibar Island's volcano is perfect for Moltres. And with the two of them in the area, it would only be fitting if Zapdos joined the party too, give him a new island near Rt. 19 with an electric theme (probably something like Mt. Layuda in Pokemon Ranger: Guardian Signs where it's a rocky island plagued by thunderstorms).

-Bring back the Safari Zone under a new owner. And maybe give it a unique gimmick, it's somewhat plain compared to Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh's Safari Zones.

-Speaking of which, Kanto needs some good gimmicks. It doesn't have much in the way of replay value and extra features, and it's probably losing the Game Corner in this game so they need something new. Not really sure what they could do to fit Kanto's theme, I'm guessing it would be something sciency. Also, it needs a regional gadget and a Battle Tower type place.

-Dex expansion. Big time. I'm thinking around 250 Pokemon would be good, and it would include cross gen evos and new families (predominantly 2nd gen of course, but also a fair bit of 3rd-6th gen Pokemon). What kinds of specific Pokemon could show up here is fairly subjective and arbitrary (although I do have some ideas), but what really matters is the sheer lack of variety in the dex. Kanto desperately needs more Ghost, Dragon, Dark, and Steel types.

-Keep the Sevii Islands for post game, but throw in a much larger variety of Pokemon. While we're in the business of connecting regions together, the Sevii Islands would be a good way to connect Kanto and Hoenn.

-Some post game legendaries I expect to show up would be the Beast trio, Lugia/Ho-oh, and the Latis. Not really sure who else.
 
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Bolt the Cat said:
Actually, I think this would make the new team idea better off in the long run because of the fact that Kanto and Johto shared the same evil team. In the sequels they could simply have the remnants of Team Rocket join the new teams (Gideon could join Kanto's team and Ariana, Proton, and Petrel could join Johto's). Although if they did that they would have to draw a clear connection back to Team Rocket, I don't think the older fans would be very accepting on the idea of a new team unless it calls back to Team Rocket in a big way.
Pairing Gideon with Ariana would make sense given their encounter on the Sevii Islands, from which Proton and Petrel were absent. As for connecting the new team to Team Rocket in a deeper way, there could be a history involved. If we go with my idea about the Cinnabar research team being the villains continuing Dr. Fuji's work, it is possible that they used to be funded by Giovanni, which would explain Ariana and Gideon knowing them. If Giovanni were to finally reform due to Silver pushing him in that direction, then he would probably want to undo the fruits of the research he (presumably) made possible years ago. Both Giovanni and Archer might have important information on the new villains.

As for Johto sequels, I don't see why a new team in that region should "call back to Team Rocket in a big way" if the point is to develop Johto separately from Kanto.
 
Pairing Gideon with Ariana would make sense given their encounter on the Sevii Islands, from which Proton and Petrel were absent. As for connecting the new team to Team Rocket in a deeper way, there could be a history involved. If we go with my idea about the Cinnabar research team being the villains continuing Dr. Fuji's work, it is possible that they used to be funded by Giovanni, which would explain Ariana and Gideon knowing them. If Giovanni were to finally reform due to Silver pushing him in that direction, then he would probably want to undo the fruits of the research he (presumably) made possible years ago. Both Giovanni and Archer might have important information on the new villains.

Yeah, this would make sense.

As for Johto sequels, I don't see why a new team in that region should "call back to Team Rocket in a big way" if the point is to develop Johto separately from Kanto.

It's Kanto that needs that connection, not Johto. I think having characters like Proton and Pretel show up in Johto is good for continuity, but aside from that I don't think the Johto team needs as much of a connection to Team Rocket.
 
But isn't Guyana a real world country?
I know that the Pokédex mentions that Gastly can take down an Indian elephant and Lt. Surge is mentioned as American so basically Mew being found in South America would make sense in context.

Kanto Pokédex said:
It can topple an Indian elephant by enveloping the prey in two seconds

Vermillion Gym sign said:
Leader: Lt. Surge
The Lighting American!
 
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But isn't Guyana a real world country?
I know that the Pokédex mentions that Ghastly can take down an Indian elephant and Lt. Surge is mentioned as American so basically Mew being found in South America would make sense in context.
It wouldn't be called Guyana if it were adapted as an actual region, but it might be called Guipna if the anime is anything to go by. Either way, at least some part of the region (the vicinity of Faraway Island) would be based on Guyana.
 
But still I think it would be best to not explore Guyana/Guipna since it's better to know that Mew (or at least the one used to create Mewtwo) was found in Guyana, a country that exists in the real world and in the Pokémon universe. But it might be reasonable to change it if it's adapted into a region in order to not insult or offend people that live in the country. This is a bit off topic but hasn't other real world countries been mentioned in Pokémon?
 
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But still I think it would be best to not explore Guyana/Guipna since it's better to know that Mew (or at least the one used to create Mewtwo) was found in Guyana, a country that exists in the real world and in the Pokémon universe.
They can change its name. I don't see how this is a reason not to explore it.

But it might be reasonable to change it if it's adapted into a region in order to not insult or offend people that live in the country. This is a bit off topic but hasn't other real world countries been mentioned in Pokémon?
Lt. Surge was said to be the "Lightning American" in the original games. Suffice to say that Unova is based on New York City, and B2W2 even implied that Lt. Surge may be from Unova.

While Kalos isn't actually called France, the references are so obvious that the name makes little difference. Oh, and Kanto is the exact name of the Japanese region it is based on.
 
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Silktree said:
Suffice to say that Unova is based on New York City, and B2W2 even implied Lt. Surge may be from Unova.
On the Lt. Surge part it's somewhat of a retcon since even the gym in Soul Silver said the same, but some members of the gym said that Surge was in a war, but in the Unova games they never mention only one from ancient times between two brothers
that had a dragon and then it separated and became Reshiram and Zekrom
but anyway it is somewhat better if they made it possible to visit Mew's home region in the 20th Anniversary game because I would prefer this over visiting Kanto again. But isn't Castelia City based on New York City because outside of that city I did not see many parallels with the city or the state.
 
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Silktree said:
Suffice to say that Unova is based on New York City, and B2W2 even implied Lt. Surge may be from Unova.
On the Lt. Surge part it's somewhat of a reckon since even the gym in Soul Silver said the same, but some members of the gym said that Surge was in a war, but in the Unova games they never mention only one from ancient times between two brothers
The war probably didn't affect Unova directly if took place overseas, so I don't see why it would necessarily need to be referenced. And there was another war in Unova mentioned in relation to the Musketeer trio's backstory.

but anyway it is somewhat better if they made it possible to visit Mew's home region in the 20th Anniversary game because I would prefer this over visiting Kanto again.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. I think it would be more interesting if the sequels (not the initial versions) took place in Kanto instead of Game Freak making the new region deliberately incomplete to justify revisiting it.

But isn't Castelia City based on New York City because outside of that city I did not see many parallels with the city or the state.
It was said in an interview that the entire region was based on New York City. See Bulbapedia for the correspondence; Castelia City is based on Lower Manhattan rather than the entire city.
 
A bit off topic here but regarding the 20th anniversary, I'd like for Nintendo to at least release the 1st gen games on the virtual console to celebrate (I know they mentioned it wasn't going to happen a while ago, but for such an occasion maybe an exception can be made).
 
A bit off topic here but regarding the 20th anniversary, I'd like for Nintendo to at least release the 1st gen games on the virtual console to celebrate (I know they mentioned it wasn't going to happen a while ago, but for such an occasion maybe an exception can be made).
I see it being done as a pre-cursor to sequels. I don't think it would done as an alternative to them, considering the outdated mechanics of the older games and the inability to do new things with them.
 
Please note: The thread is from 5 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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