Speculation Megaverse's effect on the Orre games?

[Kallyle]

Okay, so a lot of people, including myself, view Pokémon Colosseum and Pokémon XD as part of the main series timeline. However, with ORAS's Delta Episode, it is revealed that ORAS ansd XY are part of a separate universe from the previous games, which makes me wonder about one thing in particular, how do things like Infinity Energy, Mega Evolution, and AZ's ultimate weapon affect the plot of Orre?

The main reason I brought this up because the concepts of Mega Evolution and Shadow Pokémon are like polar opposites. mega evolution comes from a fully-evolved Pokémon having a very strong bond with their trainer, while the Shadow Pokémon process involves abusing any Pokémon so badly that they become ruthless killing machines.

So, because of these concepts, how do you think the Megaverse affects the plot of the Orre games? Do you think Cipher would just try to create their own variant involving Shadow Pokémon?

Discuss!

 

[Garren]

It doesn't seem like Game Freak has much interest in the Orre games sadly, so I doubt we'll ever see this addressed...hopefully though, since James Turner was a major player in the creation of those games iirc, if he advances through the ranks like I hope he does (for some reason I think he may be partially responsible for the more positive aspects introduced into the franchise of late), maybe he'll reconsider adding them back into the canon.

 

[Kallyle]

It doesn't seem like Game Freak has much interest in the Orre games sadly, so I doubt we'll ever see this addressed...hopefully though, since James Turner was a major player in the creation of those games iirc, if he advances through the ranks like I hope he does (for some reason I think he may be partially responsible for the more positive aspects introduced into the franchise of late), maybe he'll reconsider adding them back into the canon.

I'm aware taht there might not be aother Orre game. I'm just wondering what affect other people thought the Megaverse had on those plots, if any. So, what's your opinion?

 

[Master Mew]

However, with ORAS's Delta Episode, it is revealed that ORAS ansd XY are part of a separate universe from the previous games

I remember the line you're referencing, but I did not get that impression from it at all.

Like, it didn't even cross my mind until you interpreted it that way. So I think it's a little presumptuous to suggest that XY and ORAS are in a canonically separate timeline.

She just said the meteor would be sent into a different dimension/reality/whatever, where people who hadn't made the same mistakes we had would face our consequences - and that didn't seem right.

 

[BlackButterfree]

What if... Because Shadow Pokémon LITERALLY are the opposite of everything Mega Pokémon stand for... that the Orre games actually do happen in the Megaverse? The Orre games and the Ranger games are confirmed to be canon to the main series, but now that we know the main series is a multi-verse, that could mean anything.

Obviously they weren't thinking that far ahead during the Orre games or they would've introduced Mega's in D&P, but since the concepts are that polar, it could be the same universe and shadow Pokémon could be exclusive to the Megaverse.

 

[Alola]

However, with ORAS's Delta Episode, it is revealed that ORAS ansd XY are part of a separate universe from the previous games

I remember the line you're referencing, but I did not get that impression from it at all.

Like, it didn't even cross my mind until you interpreted it that way. So I think it's a little presumptuous to suggest that XY and ORAS are in a canonically separate timeline.

She just said the meteor would be sent into a different dimension/reality/whatever, where people who hadn't made the same mistakes we had would face our consequences - and that didn't seem right.

And when you have things like Gary actually visiting Kalos...how is that not the same timeline?

 

[Esserise]

The main reason I brought this up because the concepts of Mega Evolution and Shadow Pokémon are like polar opposites. mega evolution comes from a fully-evolved Pokémon having a very strong bond with their trainer, while the Shadow Pokémon process involves abusing any Pokémon so badly that they become ruthless killing machines.

Personally, I never played the Orre games, but what you said here did make me think of something - particularly, the BW games. In those, they often discuss the "hidden potential" of Pokémon, and in B2W2, Colress spends the majority of the game trying to figure out how to best bring out that potential. The story seems to emphasize that it's the bond between a Trainer and their Pokémon that can do it, and I always assumed that that is what must have happened when Nate/Rosa faced Kyurem (because in BW, they made this big deal about how N's dragon would only be able to be defeated by its opposite - and ignoring that you can freely switch to something else and use that instead, the fact that the game all but forces you to use your dragon against it reinforces the idea. So why, then, can Nate/Rosa defeat an even stronger dragon without using one of their own? I have to assume that they were able to do it because they brought out the intangible hidden potential of their Pokémon through their bond). And in XY, Lysandre says that when Mega Evolution occurs, all of a Pokémon's hidden potential is released at once. So it seems that, even in the Non-Mega Universe, Pokémon can achieve a Mega Evolution-like "boost" from the bonds that they share with their Trainers, but since there are no Key Stones or Mega Stones in order to facilitate it, the Pokémon does not actually Mega Evolve, despite releasing their hidden potential.

So, if abusing your Pokémon in order to convert them into Shadow Pokémon is the opposite equivalent of that release of hidden potential, then it could be possible that there exists an equivalent "Shadow" Mega Evolution. After all, in ORAS, it is said at one point that there could be many kinds of Evolution that are similar to Mega Evolution, with Primal Reversion being but one possibility, and with the difference between those two stemming from the source of the energy used to drive it.

She just said the meteor would be sent into a different dimension/reality/whatever, where people who hadn't made the same mistakes we had would face our consequences - and that didn't seem right.

She also said that the other universe was one that was almost identical to theirs, but in which AZ's war never happened and Mega Evolution was never discovered... which pretty much describes RSE to a T. The general response that I have seen hasn't not thought that that was the implication.

And when you have things like Gary actually visiting Kalos...how is that not the same timeline?

Because, like that universe having its own version of Steven, Roxanne, Wally, Kiyo, Mr. Briney, Footprint-Sketcher Guy, Fat Science Guy, Rydel, and so on, it would also have its own version of Blue. The two universes are more or less identical, save for a few key differences.

 

[Master Mew]

She just said the meteor would be sent into a different dimension/reality/whatever, where people who hadn't made the same mistakes we had would face our consequences - and that didn't seem right.

She also said that the other universe was one that was almost identical to theirs, but in which AZ's war never happened and Mega Evolution was never discovered... which pretty much describes RSE to a T. The general response that I have seen hasn't not thought that that was the implication.

It also describes pretty much every alternate universe theory: Multiple universes separated by one solitary difference.

I'm sorry, I just think people are being a bit fanatical about "confirming" a pretty massive implication based off of one post-game statement that could just as easily match any and every generic multiverse theory.

 

[Absent]

There's more to Shadow Pokemon than that. Shadow Pokemon are made by artificially closing the door to their hearts(Abuse is not necessary), that's why they behave like savage beasts that can attack you when they enter Hyper/Reverse Mode.

Going by Pokemon logic, the Shadow Project was flawed until the creation of XD001, who couldn't be Purified by natural means(bonding/scents). The only way a Mega Shadow Pokemon could work is by using a perfected XD001 model.

 

[Bolt Strike]

So, if abusing your Pokémon in order to convert them into Shadow Pokémon is the opposite equivalent of that release of hidden potential, then it could be possible that there exists an equivalent "Shadow" Mega Evolution. After all, in ORAS, it is said at one point that there could be many kinds of Evolution that are similar to Mega Evolution, with Primal Reversion being but one possibility, and with the difference between those two stemming from the source of the energy used to drive it.

This reminds me, in XD they powered up Shadow Lugia to be the "ultimate Shadow Pokemon" where it took on a different appearance and couldn't be purified by normal means. Perhaps in the Mega Evolution universe XDs would be the Shadow equivalent of Mega Evolution.

 

[Esserise]

There's more to Shadow Pokemon than that. Shadow Pokemon are made by artificially closing the door to their hearts(Abuse is not necessary), that's why they behave like savage beasts that can attack you when they enter Hyper/Reverse Mode.

Going by Pokemon logic, the Shadow Project was flawed until the creation of XD001, who couldn't be Purified by natural means(bonding/scents). The only way a Mega Shadow Pokemon could work is by using a perfected XD001 model.

Ah, okay; thank you for the clarification. As I said, I never played the games myself, so I'm not very familiar with the specifics.

This reminds me, in XD they powered up Shadow Lugia to be the "ultimate Shadow Pokemon" where it took on a different appearance and couldn't be purified by normal means. Perhaps in the Mega Evolution universe XDs would be the Shadow equivalent of Mega Evolution.

And, fittingly, that is somewhat in keeping with Primal Reversion, which only causes Kyogre/Groudon to grow larger, glow, and develop new patterns on their bodies, as opposed to undergoing the full change in appearance that occurs during Mega Evolution. Shadow Lugia undergoes a much simpler change, as it only darkens in its color scheme.

 

[The Outrage]

I really don't think Cipher could exist in its current form in a world where Mega Evolution exists. They were looking to make the ultimate Pokemon by shutting their heart's doors--Mega Evolution needs the bond between humans and Pokemon. They're essentially making it impossible for Pokemon to Mega Evolve. Perhaps if they found an alternate form of evolution they believed to be more powerful than Mega Evolution, I see no reason why Cipher would have existed.

 

[BlackButterfree]

And when you have things like Gary actually visiting Kalos...how is that not the same timeline?

To be fair, RSE has its own version of Steven, as does ORAS. RGBY/GSC has its own version of Blue/Gary, as does FRLG/HGSS.

If you believe the multiverse theory, then you also have to believe that there is a REAL LIFE universe out there where Pokémon actually exist and that there's a version of you in that world who's a trainer.

 

[DasManiac]

Like the other games, the Orre games still likely happen in some form. In the 3D timeline, similar events to those of the previous games happened but the details are slightly different. Shadow Pokemon are artificially induced. They're artificial Mega Evolutions and that's how I think Genius Sonority would handle it if they made a new game.

 

[BlackButterfree]

Like the other games, the Orre games still likely happen in some form. In the 3D timeline, similar events to those of the previous games happened but the details are slightly different. Shadow Pokemon are artificially induced. They're artificial Mega Evolutions and that's how I think Genius Sonority would handle it if they made a new game.

So if they're artificial Mega's, Devon Corp could be tied into Orre, since the rocket in the Delta Episode was going to recreate an artificial mega evolution process.

 

[DasManiac]

Where exactly is Orre even? I know a lot of people like to place it on the same landmass as Johto and Kanto but I see no reason to assume that. In my opinion I would say its Northwest of Hoenn and as such is west of Johto. It's somewhere near those two regions. With Mega Evolution now existing, Orre would be an interesting place to return to. Too bad Genius Sonority has no interest anymore. There's a lot they could do with Orre (as long they don't change the map again).

 

[Bolt Strike]

Where exactly is Orre even? I know a lot of people like to place it on the same landmass as Johto and Kanto but I see no reason to assume that. In my opinion I would say its Northwest of Hoenn and as such is west of Johto. It's somewhere near those two regions. With Mega Evolution now existing, Orre would be an interesting place to return to. Too bad Genius Sonority has no interest anymore. There's a lot they could do with Orre (as long they don't change the map again).

It's based on Arizona, so it would be on the same continent as Unova to the far west and east across the sea from Poke-Japan.

 

[Muur]

What if... Because Shadow Pokémon LITERALLY are the opposite of everything Mega Pokémon stand for... that the Orre games actually do happen in the Megaverse? The Orre games and the Ranger games are confirmed to be canon to the main series, but now that we know the main series is a multi-verse, that could mean anything.

Obviously they weren't thinking that far ahead during the Orre games or they would've introduced Mega's in D&P, but since the concepts are that polar, it could be the same universe and shadow Pokémon could be exclusive to the Megaverse.

This now needs to be a thing.

Then we see shadow vs mega in a big showdown between universes.

 

[BlackButterfree]

Where exactly is Orre even? I know a lot of people like to place it on the same landmass as Johto and Kanto but I see no reason to assume that. In my opinion I would say its Northwest of Hoenn and as such is west of Johto. It's somewhere near those two regions. With Mega Evolution now existing, Orre would be an interesting place to return to. Too bad Genius Sonority has no interest anymore. There's a lot they could do with Orre (as long they don't change the map again).

It's based on Arizona, so it would be on the same continent as Unova to the far west and east across the sea from Poke-Japan.

Spoiler

Actually, Poké-Japan is positioned awkwardly compared to real Japan. Kanto in real life is Northeast of Kansai (Johto), while Poké-Kanto is just east of Johto. Hoenn's northernmost tip is actually Kyushu's westernmost tip, meaning that Johto is northwest of Hoenn. Sinnoh is based off of Hokkaido, which in real life is Northeast of Kanto, with Almia being the southern tip of Hokkaido. Fiore also seems to be based on Hokkaido, as it seems to be south of Sinnoh, despite having an Italian name in most versions. The Sevii Islands and Orange Archipelago are south of Poké-Kanto, meaning they'd be Southeast of the real life Kanto and therefore West of Kyushu (or North of Hoenn).

If we go by your estimation and Unova is east of Orre, which would correspond to NYC and Arizona, respectively, then Orre is east of Unova and west of Poké-Japan entirely, with Kalos being West of Unova and East of Poké-Japan. But this estimation has to be incorrect, as Unova's Nuvema Town and Kanto's Vermillion City are separated by a short Archipelago, the Decolore Islands. This means that Unova is most likely in China's real life position and Almia is speculated by fans to be East of Orre. And then Pokémon Island (the setting of Snap) is between the Orange Islands and Kanto.

So this leaves only the TCG-exclusive Holon, the Pokémon Conquest-exclusive Ransei and the Pokémon Ranger: Guardian Signs-exclusive Oblivia as the only regions without a known or speculated location, though it should be noted that Holon is speculated to be Northeast of Kanto, which would make it South of Fiore and Sinnoh.

Sorry, that was really long. Why does Genius Sonority (who I'm assuming are the developers) not want to bring back the series?

 

[Bolt Strike]

But this estimation has to be incorrect, as Unova's Nuvema Town and Kanto's Vermillion City are separated by a short Archipelago, the Decolore Islands.

Stop. The Decolore Islands are anime only, they're not canon.

Sorry, that was really long. Why does Genius Sonority (who I'm assuming are the developers) not want to bring back the series?

Now that is an interesting question. They went from Colosseum/XD to Battle Revolution to DS/3DS apps and spinoffs (they made Pokemon Typing and Battle Trozei). We know that Game Freak is not too fond of console games, and they don't make Stadium games anymore because XY renders them obsolete, but I don't think they've ever said anything about why the Colosseum/XD series got another game. My best guess would probably be sales, Colosseum only sold 1.5 million and IDK what XD's sales were but it probably wasn't that much better.