My Big Problem with the Pokémon Anime - An Essay and a Rant

[PkmnTrainerV]

I've got a solid solution for the Anime.
Have Ash Personality Arcs.

I think, from BW onwards, we could have some arcs focusing on the wrongs of Ash's current personality, and his focus to improve those faults, and continue in the next Region.

For example- After having a high rank in Sinnoh league, Ash would've gone high-and mighty and thus incompetent. And after having a comparatively low rank from Unova League, Ash would go into an arc of self-realisation, getting his faults, and his lack of focus that led him to lose the Unova League.

Then, he would carry onto Kalos, as a more modest person at heart, and his modesty leading him to catch stronger Pokemon, have more development, and thus be the runner up of the Kalos league.

This would seem more believable, and would make Ash more bearable as a Character, it would also be relatable to children, and their schools, as one year, they get more marks, another year, they get less. But in the end, they strive to be perfect. One Grade as a 'Region', Exams as 'League' and all the rest.

One perfect example in Pokemon anime was the Ash-Greninja Arc, with Ash reviewing on his (then) recent losses to Sawyer and Alain.

 

[ii kanji]

Wouldn't viewers simply lose the thread of a character arc lasting 3-4 years though?

 

[Jaye]

Ongoing personality development like that would only work for long-term viewers of the show, though. It has to be easy for new viewers to start watching when a new season airs, which it wouldn't be if you had to know a previous season's worth of character development to know where a character is at.

Also, I think you'd have to reach a point where the development stops because there's only so many flaws you can give someone before you run out or end up retreading old ground. Like, there's only so many times Ash can get arrogant and learn not to be.

 

[RileyXY1]

I believe that the status quo is the reason why Pokemon's ratings have gone down. Why haven't they realized that this is not what we want?

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

I believe that the status quo is the reason why Pokemon's ratings have gone down. Why haven't they realized that this is not what we want?

I believe you're right, but sadly, the target audience is children, and as long as the profit margins are good enough, they see no reason to break up the status quo at the end of the day.

 

[RileyXY1]

I believe you're right, but sadly, the target audience is children, and as long as the profit margins are good enough, they see no reason to break up the status quo at the end of the day.

Even then, the kids are leaving the franchise, especially in Japan where Yo-Kai Watch has taken over. That's why SM has been focusing a lot on slapstick comedy, they want to bring their kid audience back. The Kalos League results got extremely negative reception, and I heard that fans even burned their merchandise out of anger and rage.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I believe that the status quo is the reason why Pokemon's ratings have gone down. Why haven't they realized that this is not what we want?

Because we're not the target audience. If they cared about what older fans wanted, then they would have changed things ages ago.

Even then, the kids are leaving the franchise, especially in Japan where Yo-Kai Watch has taken over. That's why SM has been focusing a lot on slapstick comedy, they want to bring their kid audience back. The Kalos League results got extremely negative reception, and I heard that fans even burned their merchandise out of anger and rage.

How many of those negative reactions were from kids though? I remember seeing the backlash, including fans dropping merchandise in trash bins. Although, I'm pretty sure that most of those, if not all of them, were just jokes from older fans upset that a Kalos League victory didn't happen rather than something a large amount of people actually did. Burning merchandise out of rage isn't going to send much of a message to the people in charge of the show. All that's going to show is that people have money to waste if they throw away games and plush toys. That stuff doesn't come cheap. I can understand why people were so upset with the Kalos League finale, especially when people actually thought that Ash could win this time around, but if anyone actually did burn their Pokemon stuff over it, then that eliminates my sympathy for them. If you don't want your Pokemon stuff anymore, at least donate it or sell it so that other people can enjoy it instead of throwing a fit and ruining perfectly good stuff.

Plus, in spite of all of the backlash for the Kalos League, fans changed their tunes pretty fast with the Team Flare arc. Within a couple of weeks, people were loving the anime again. Everything from that arc, its aftermath and its conclusion were generally praised well. Greninja's release and maybe Serena's decision to go to Hoenn being the only exceptions here. The Kalos League was generally not received well, even before the finale happened, but XY as a whole is still widely praised online, at least based on what I've seen here and a couple of other sites. So the backlash against the Kalos League doesn't really change anything when so many people still liked the series as a whole and the hate from that particular arc died down fast.

As for kids leaving the franchise, I know that Yo-Kai Watch is still pretty popular in Japan, but I don't think that's the only reason they've gone into a different direction with SM. Granted, it's partly because I'm sick of the whole Pokemon is trying to copy Yo-Kai Watch thing in general, but slap stick style of humor isn't specific to just Yo-Kai Watch. I've seen more comments comparing it to trying to capture early Kanto style of humor more than anything else after the series premiered, which sounds a bit more fitting to me. I couldn't last through an entire episode of Yokai Watch, but the humor aimed at significantly younger kids than it is with Pokemon.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

We can try to rationalize and justify all we want why is pokemon anime and those in charge behind it treating it like haphazard mess with no real story. Fluid and progressive character development. Show where hard work, all that preparation and training never pays of. As well having no continuity, no real ties to past generations with ex main characters being treated with total disrespect abandoned and forgotten like garbage.

But OP posted complete truth and frustration behind pokemon anime many pokemon viewers and long term fans is justified. Regardless of pokemon series not being aimed at older viewers, or being mainly focused on advertising new games.

That doesn't excuse it at all for bad writing, tons of wasted potential., destroyed opportunities and constant, never ending stale repeat of what was done so many times before.
Because there exist many anime out there with similar themes and marketing objective. Yet they are not being handled like joke in comparison to pokemon when speaking of this things.

When you see for long running show like pokemon which lasts for 17 years being mostly known for:

1.)stagnation -keeping main characters in time loop never seeming to progress forward with their story, barely mature, never age or make it look like learned lessons, moral values and experiences has poluted some results bringing them closer to final destination,.

Like its case with Ash character being destined to forever lose league which to make irony greater is not even definite end. But just one step forward in coming closer toward his goal..

2.)no continuity -getting rid of traveling companions every time new region is introduced in favor of next one. Having their story left unfinished without ever getting chance to be explored to their full potential. And on top of that forgetting about them in anime which is apparently supposed to be continuity based show set in same timeline and universe following permanent main character and story which should build on itself but rarely does(often it goes backwards)?

Like they never existed, had any influence on franchise and story plot. Perfect example is Misty who disappeared from face of earth for past 10 years, May isn't in any better spot either, neither is Brock, Cilan, Iris, Dawn etc. And soon enough newer characters like Serena, Clemont etc will find themselves in same limbo. Defeating point behind inclusion of traveling companions in first place if their legacy is neutered , they never get follow up on their own untold stories and have them abandoned and ignored for so long.

To the point of pokemon anime viewers not even knowing who they are, becoming completely irrelevant and outdated like their presence in history, contribution to main storyline and their own efforts and struggles, problems and pursued dreams were for nothing becoming forgotten about.

3.) repetition-resort to using past plots over and over again. Delivering same ideas and repetitive basic concept behind them(like whole background of fire starter being abandoned or neglected, Pikachu refusing to evolve, TR endlessly trying to catch Pikachu failing at it)rather than trying to deliver something more innovative. Making sure that each series is different, tries out new concepts increasing originality. Even whole crush angle with Serena from previous series while much more focused upon and defined was still hardly something not seen before, in end not going anywhere either.

4.)disproportion - imbalance between advertising games and making quality story itself.

You can have show which promotes video games, yet still has quality character development, more complex and substantial story which uses past and previous experiences as guidelines on which new ideas are constructed taking protagonists and plot quest forward.

Unlike what is pokemon anime doing sending or implying through careless and questionable acts from those in charge message: -How its not worth your time and effort to get emotionally invested in main characters.
-Its not worth it to invest in its barely existing story or character development. With this show slowly, but surely declining causing frustration, anger and lot of disappointment in end for anyone who grew up with it. Yet still foolishly hopes for something changing for better with producers breaking status quo making something more extraordinary out of this.

When pokemon series is nothing more than 20 minute marketing joke.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Unlike what is pokemon anime doing sending or implying through careless and questionable acts from those in charge message: -How its not worth your time and effort to get emotionally invested in main characters.
-Its not worth it to invest in its barely existing story or character development. With this show slowly, but surely declining causing frustration, anger and lot of disappointment in end for anyone who grew up with it. Yet still foolishly hopes for something changing for better with producers breaking status quo making something more extraordinary out of this.

When pokemon series is nothing more than 20 minute marketing joke.

You said it best right here: it's the truth- you're only going to have your heart broken if you expect anything substantive or progressive with the Anime at this point.

 

[Jaye]

1.)stagnation -keeping main characters in time loop never seeming to progress forward with their story, barely mature, never age or make it look like learned lessons, moral values and experiences has poluted some results bringing them closer to final destination,.

They stagnate because there's no ending. They HAVE TO stagnate the development of the characters they can't remove from the main cast.

If Ash developed for 1,000 episodes his character would be a mess. They'd lose track of what's been done before and where his character would be going. It's far easier for them to keep him the same as always.

2.)no continuity -getting rid of traveling companions every time new region is introduced in favor of next one. Having their story left unfinished without ever getting chance to be explored to their full potential. And on top of that forgetting about them in anime which is apparently supposed to be continuity based show set in same timeline and universe following permanent main character and story which should build on itself but rarely does(often it goes backwards)?

...

To the point of pokemon anime viewers not even knowing who they are, becoming completely irrelevant and outdated like their presence in history, contribution to main storyline and their own efforts and struggles, problems and pursued dreams were for nothing becoming forgotten about.

This is the point. A show with strong continuity is harder for new viewers to watch. The occasional bone tossed to older fans aside, their goal is to attract new fans to the show whenever a new season starts.

3.) repetition-resort to using past plots over and over again. Delivering same ideas and repetitive basic concept behind them(like whole background of fire starter being abandoned or neglected, Pikachu refusing to evolve, TR endlessly trying to catch Pikachu failing at it)rather than trying to deliver something more innovative. Making sure that each series is different, tries out new concepts increasing originality. Even whole crush angle with Serena from previous series while much more focused upon and defined was still hardly something not seen before, in end not going anywhere either.

Repetition is inevitable in such a long-running show, especially one that has no competition.

You can have show which promotes video games, yet still has quality character development, more complex and substantial story which uses past and previous experiences as guidelines on which new ideas are constructed taking protagonists and plot quest forward.

Yes, it is possible, but amongst all shows which exist to market a franchise, Pokemon is unique because it's a goddamn 1,000 episodes long.

Let's put this into perspective. Digimon, another show which existed to market a franchise, never had a season longer than 54 episodes. Seasons 1, 2, Tamers, Frontier, Savers, and XWars only aired for a year each. Several other shows which are adapted from video games or are there to advertise a video game/franchise are only 12-24 episodes long.

Only Yu-Gi-Oh! is comparable to Pokemon, in terms of length, but they have a distinct advantage of having a completely different story and set of characters for each series they produce. But even then, every season of Yu-Gi-Oh! suffers from horrendous pacing and nonsensical stories, because they have to fill out three years worth of episodes. Three years for a single series is a very long time.

I'm going to continue to side with the writer's on most of the show's issues because they really aren't in a position to produce the things you want out the show. It's impossible to have a show with quality character development, a complex and substantial story, and tons of continuity that lasts for a 1,000 episodes and counting. It's impossible to do those things well when you have no idea when the show is going to end. The best they can do is work within self-contained series' (i.e AG, DP, etc.) which is why characters leave the cast every three years and why Ash starts again in a new region.

What you'll find is, if you treat Pokemon like one giant body of work - which many people do - it's going to look awful. It looks awful because it is awful. But before we bitch and moan about how awful it is, we have to consider the unique circumstances around the show's development and limitations the writers are under.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

Even then, the kids are leaving the franchise, especially in Japan where Yo-Kai Watch has taken over. That's why SM has been focusing a lot on slapstick comedy, they want to bring their kid audience back. The Kalos League results got extremely negative reception, and I heard that fans even burned their merchandise out of anger and rage.

Spoiler

Japan's Animation TV Ranking, July 18-24
Pokemon XY 3.4 Yokai Watch 3.3
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, August 1-7
Pokemon XY 3.0 Yokai Watch 3.5
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, August 8-14
Pokemon XY 2.0 Yokai Watch 3.3
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, August 22-28
Pokemon XY 3.4 Yokai Watch lesser than 3.2
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, August 29-September 4
Pokemon XY 3.0 Yokai Watch 3.9
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, September 5-11
Pokemon XY 3.9 Yokai Watch 3.6
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, September 12-18
Pokemon XY 3.2 Yokai Watch 3.6
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, October 3-9
Pokemon XY 3.6 Yokai Watch 3.5
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, October 17-23
Pokemon XY 3.1 Yokai Watch 4.0
Japan's Animation TV Ranking, November 7-13
Pokemon XY 3.0 Yokai Watch 3.1

I don't see a big difference between them, rating wise.

 

[CrystaI]

I'm going to continue to side with the writer's on most of the show's issues because they really aren't in a position to produce the things you want out the show. It's impossible to have a show with quality character development, a complex and substantial story, and tons of continuity that lasts for a 1,000 episodes and counting. It's impossible to do those things well when you have no idea when the show is going to end. The best they can do is work within self-contained series' (i.e AG, DP, etc.) which is why characters leave the cast every three years and why Ash starts again in a new region.

What you'll find is, if you treat Pokemon like one giant body of work - which many people do - it's going to look awful. It looks awful because it is awful. But before we bitch and moan about how awful it is, we have to consider the unique circumstances around the show's development and limitations the writers are under.

If looking at the Pokemon Anime production from the writer's POV, then I can also suggest another solution as I had mentioned before: Keep the same same protagonist, but reboot the timeline itself. So keep Ash Ketchum in the name, but reincarnate him into different identities in each saga, with similar or different background and personality. So it is like Link of Legend of Zelda.

I understand that this is not a popular method in Japanese anime industry, in fact there was no preceding example at all for reference. Though despite it is not in Japan, there does exist examples in Western cartoon, and many of those that reuses the same protagonist icons are still running strong and long. So I don't think it is unworkable. Maybe Pokemon Anime could had become the trailblazer in bringing this anime serialization method to Japanese anime industry.

If Ash Ketchum (and TRio) are such an important human icon for Pokemon Anime, then they may as well just iconize him to become a characterless figure, which is then just an avatar model that can become anything in any situation. In that case, from writer's POV, that will be much more convenient than what we are getting currently.

So for example, in one saga he is a dreamful 10-year-old trainer from Kanto Pallet aimed to become Pokemon Master; next saga he is an energetic child giving trouble to his home town Johto New Bark; another saga he is an unknown experienced trainer happened to mentor a newbie trainer from Heonn Littleroot; next saga he is a hot-blooded trainer aimed to enter the league just to prove to his rival somewhere from Sinnoh that his training moral is wrong; upcoming saga he is an idiotic trainer from Unova Nuvema that has basically no book knowledge of what it is a pokemon trainer yet he is aiming to become the strongest; then next saga he is a badass cool guy destined to save the world!
This sound familiar, isn't it? The difference between this and the current Pokemon Anime is, despite it will all still be story of "Ash Ketchum", each saga completely cut the tie from each other, there is no saga-to-saga continuity, only internal continuity within the saga itself. So the important point here is: Establish the fact on-screen telling the audience explicitly that any new Ash Ketchum is not any already-established old Ash Ketchum.
So technically speaking, it is a reboot, but felt more like if-AU scenarios of the same protagonist.

I'm sure someone doesn't like this at all, especially the hardcore believers of Dragonball and Naruto's story plot method. But still, from writer's POV, that will allowed more writing freedom than currently, and allows old fans to follow for long because it is the same iconic protagonist (despite not in the core), yet allows new fans come in any time because there is no worry about past.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Only Yu-Gi-Oh! is comparable to Pokemon, in terms of length, but they have a distinct advantage of having a completely different story and set of characters for each series they produce. But even then, every season of Yu-Gi-Oh! suffers from horrendous pacing and nonsensical stories, because they have to fill out three years worth of episodes. Three years for a single series is a very long time.

It also helps that fans generally don't count every single episode of the Yu-Gi-Oh! series like they do with Pokemon. Some will give the total number of episodes to people who are interested in checking them out, but people tend to focus on the individual length of each series more than every single episode in total. It probably helps that each series has a kind of stand alone kind of feeling to it, especially the more recent series. I wouldn't say that every series suffers from horrendous pacing and nonsensical stories. They can be an issue, especially pacing, but I don't know if I'd describe that for every series. Some of the stories can be nonsensical, but I've been watching it for so long that I generally can tolerate some ridiculous concepts. You kind of have to in order to really enjoy the series in my opinion.

I'm going to continue to side with the writer's on most of the show's issues because they really aren't in a position to produce the things you want out the show. It's impossible to have a show with quality character development, a complex and substantial story, and tons of continuity that lasts for a 1,000 episodes and counting. It's impossible to do those things well when you have no idea when the show is going to end. The best they can do is work within self-contained series' (i.e AG, DP, etc.) which is why characters leave the cast every three years and why Ash starts again in a new region.

Pretty much. If they were able to go the Pokemon Adventures route with changing the lead for every series, they might be able to pull it off given that they could still start off with a clean slate and actually have a good idea of how to end the lead's storyline. They can't really do that with Ash since he has to be included for marketing reasons and there's no chance that they'd replace him now.

What you'll find is, if you treat Pokemon like one giant body of work - which many people do - it's going to look awful. It looks awful because it is awful. But before we bitch and moan about how awful it is, we have to consider the unique circumstances around the show's development and limitations the writers are under.

I think that's big factor as to why people complain about the anime in general. People do tend to see the whole anime as one giant story, but it's really not. They aren't expecting that people are watching the show twenty years later in the hopes of Ash finally wins a league. They have always tried to appeal to kids first and foremost. The fact that it exists to promote the games and how they are limited with what they can do is also often overlooked/ignored.

 

[Iteru]

The Kalos League results got extremely negative reception, and I heard that fans even burned their merchandise out of anger and rage.

Then quite frankly those particular fans are too immature to be watching the show.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

They stagnate because there's no ending. They HAVE TO stagnate the development of the characters they can't remove from the main cast.

If Ash developed for 1,000 episodes his character would be a mess. They'd lose track of what's been done before and where his character would be going. It's far easier for them to keep him the same as always.

They can't or don't want to?
Lets cite one of things answered in interview done on Pokebeach back in 2008 with pokemon director until Battle Frontier Masamitsu Hidaka:

Spoiler

Who is Ash’s father? This one made him laugh, since I asked it rather bluntly and simply. He explained Ash’s grandfather was a great Trainer who traveled the lands a long time ago, and Ash’s father followed in his footsteps and left. Then I asked if he would ever appear, and he responded that only if the writers felt a need to “grow” Ash as a character (personal note: we need some character development, please). He explained he was not a writer on the show and merely worked as the storyboard artist, so he had no control over what they put on the show. But, he said there is a possibility his father could appear one day. At least we know Ash has a father now, unlike other anime characters.

Now an overall question about the show. Will Ash ever become a Pokemon Master? He laughed and fell back on the couch. He blatantly said that when Ash becomes a Pokemon Master, the show will end. It will be the last episode. Going back to my first interview, I did not mention that he stated the show was cyclical because it could be the audience is constantly replaced (since children get older and leave, and new children come in), so they are allowed to get away with having the same repetitive goal. So, the show would probably continue the same way collect badges, travel through different regions, never age. Will Ash and Pikachu ever be replaced? No. Will they ever age? No. Will there be a 5th generation of Pokemon and will the show keep continuing? He laughed even harder and said of course. Pokemon will continue for many generations to come, and as he made it sound, probably forever.
Etc, etc.

Its not that writers and their superiors cannot make better job pushing Ash and journey forward instead of letting things trapped in endless circulum vitiosus forever.

Its more that they do not want to or view it as necessary.

Before someone pulls old argument of pokemon anime not being written with ending in mind. Whether some like it or not it will end eventually.

Yes to prolong story and characters staying power in series where its not known yet when it will be time to retire them things like stagnation and dragging out some ideas more than needed is necessity.

However that still does not mean how story and characters couldn't have been much better fleshed out gaining certain layer of depth to themselves. Or how journey couldn't been prolonged through new, more creative ideas and challenges.

Such as let just take Ash for example. Have him deal with pressure and sudden fame after winning first league eventually. With everyone expecting from him to do same result in next one. Challenging E4 and explaining background behind champion league. Suffering from becoming overconfident after becoming veteran starting to make mistakes. Bring up his father as additional leeway to take him forward.

Introduce new steps and tasks needed to accomplish after winning various leagues aka style to Battle Frontier or even master league introducing other elements and missions required to achieve to climb closer toward Ash ultimate destination.

Same goes for others.

Spoiler

Like Brock doctor career( facing with dilemma between becoming raveling doctor or opening daycare center, going to distant regions to learn from other specialists applying his theory knowledge in wild, deal with issue of women constantly rejecting him etc).

Dawn after winning Grand Festival following path of Soledad to enter and win other GF making name fir herself globally as coordinator. Trying to look up to Wallace and become contest master. Deal with unresolved rivalries like Zoey or Ursula or new ones waiting still to happen and receive ending.

Have her life intertwine with Serena becoming older more experienced mentor figure to rookie in that area. With each character growing through such cooperation and build of bond between them.

Misty reentering Whirl Cup and other water tournaments to push herself forward in becoming water master, use her fascination with E4 wanting to become strong as them to advantage for her story. Adding new path for her to follow in working to pass various trials to become eventually EE4 apprentice(like her idol Lorelei). Deal with ambivalent feelings of staying at gym and wanting to keep it reputable place, yet at same time expressing desire to be more than gym leader implying wish to hit road again if chronicles were something to go by. Bring up missing parents and dive more in her childhood facing unresolved fears and issues.

Have Jessie, James and Meowth starting to question their staying in TR organization pondering about their own future. Make Giovanni and his subordinates present abit more often succeeding for once in doing mess in one region with Ash and others failing to stop them from stealing some valuable item. With plot carrying itself to next region As heads to in retrieving eventually important artefact or pokemon bringing it back to where it belongs.
And so on.

There existed ideas and opportunities to extend this long journey and let it be filled with more substantial content. While still having space and ways to continue making dozen of new episodes but of at least a bit better, more rewarding quality than what we have got instead. But laziness, lack of motivation and wrongly set priorities did its job.

Because why invest more resources, time and effort in making sure to create new challenges and steps once first obstacle is passed? More intricate entanglements and more profound character development. Filing up hundreds of episodes with material of greater quality backed by hard work present behind it.

When its much, much easier to just endlessly recycle plots, rehash ideas and never move things from starting point. Filing up that same amount of episodes with subpar or in some cases even terrible content.

This is the point. A show with strong continuity is harder for new viewers to watch. The occasional bone tossed to older fans aside, their goal is to attract new fans to the show whenever a new season starts.

Excuse of new kids not watching previous generations is very poor justification for flat out bad writing and low quality.

I watched several other anime or long running shows out there which lasted for hundreds, some even thousand of episodes, yet they had no problems with new generations of viewers getting interested in such shows. Deciding to join in with references to past, throwbacks to previous development and reappearances f older characters not taking away entertainment value for them.

For example Dragon ball series are well over 600 episodes and still going through Dragon Ball Super, One Piece is reaching 800 and its not even close to ending anytime soon going by what creator said,Santa Barbara for example had over 2000 episodes and it still had better continuity than Pokémon ever even tried).Etc, etc.

Yet new viewers thanks to lot of connection to previous adventures and experiences could get grasp of understanding who are certain characters, what has happened in past and in what direction series are going. Because other shows which lasted or last for a very long time actually had staff behind themselves making sure to have formatted, consistent and well planned storyline which uses past as guideline, vectors on which future is developed. With previous experiences and characters remaining relevant and playing some importance and purpose in new adventures as well not being omitted from face of existence.

Instead of having strong sense of continuity and on going plot driven journey which is anything but true for Pokemon, its actually much more confusing for new generations of kids when each new generation is handled like some sort of artificial revamp kicking out everything except Ash and TR, just to once in every decade or so reintroduce past character like Clair in BW, Gary or Jasmine in DP, Charizard of who new kids could possibly never know when returning in Unova. If they had no contact with previous seasons not watching past sagas.

Leaving young viewers surprised with lot of question marks above their heads serving as deterrence from being able to enjoy in relaxed way in this anime series. Due to such mess and haphazard way in which history and chain of events when they bother to reference timeline is brought up.. Wandering from where did this pokemon or character came from?
How he/she knows Ash being such good friends? What was its importance to series and why they were never mentioned before?

New kids which jump in should be no excuse and impediment in telling consistent, believable, well planned story which don't forget its roots, important past characters, pokemon and adventures. Otherwise you have product with no real identity behind itself. And that is im afraid what Pokemon has become at this point.

Repetition is inevitable in such a long-running show, especially one that has no competition.

Saying how this show has no competition would be huge understatement. Pokemon popularity has dwindled away considerably doing losing battle on today market with plethora of other anime with similar theme(Yokai Watch is one of them). Which has easier time in alluring new generations of kids than pokemon does.

With those in charge trying to keep up with modern times by changing what isn't asked for or wanted by audience. Such as making atmosphere and dynamic of character and show more goofy. redesign protagonists and setting through wackier animation. Trying out to push love story more directly as it was cvase with Serena . Abandoning gym leaders and collecting badges format turning this show in Sun and Moon in high school daily life drama for now.

Instead of staying faithful to roots and what made Pokemon anime recognizable, popular and worldwide accepted in first place. And taking more substantial changes in those field. So that at its core this series could start going forward.

Yes, it is possible, but amongst all shows which exist to market a franchise, Pokemon is unique because it's a goddamn 1,000 episodes long.

Let's put this into perspective. Digimon, another show which existed to market a franchise, never had a season longer than 54 episodes. Seasons 1, 2, Tamers, Frontier, Savers, and XWars only aired for a year each. Several other shows which are adapted from video games or are there to advertise a video game/franchise are only 12-24 episodes long.

Only Yu-Gi-Oh! is comparable to Pokemon, in terms of length, but they have a distinct advantage of having a completely different story and set of characters for each series they produce. But even then, every season of Yu-Gi-Oh! suffers from horrendous pacing and nonsensical stories, because they have to fill out three years worth of episodes. Three years for a single series is a very long time.

I'm going to continue to side with the writer's on most of the show's issues because they really aren't in a position to produce the things you want out the show. It's impossible to have a show with quality character development, a complex and substantial story, and tons of continuity that lasts for a 1,000 episodes and counting. It's impossible to do those things well when you have no idea when the show is going to end. The best they can do is work within self-contained series' (i.e AG, DP, etc.) which is why characters leave the cast every three years and why Ash starts again in a new region.

Length should not be obstacle in at least trying to make better work out of something. Sure you could say how in some fields writers hands are tied. Due to directives and orders from those above them like head wroters, director, chief director, producers, game ceos etc.

However im not talking just about writers, but everyone involved in pokemon anime being created. And that includes directors and those on top positions as well in being too inexorable, ignorant and in flexible to let lower ranks of anime staff apply some of their repressed creativity, ideas and desire to make better work in real product.,

Its no secret that often pokemon writers themselves had different vision and desire in how should storyline in accordance to advertising new games Gamefreak and Nintendo pumps out should go But had, have their hands tied by their superiors.

Takeshi Shudo who was head writer for Original series in very detailed and elaborate way touched upon this subject with lack of communication, disagreements and wrongly set priorities as result brought ot of frustration and apathy for those who wanted to bring change but couldn't.

Having mess we have now.

I also disagree how things many hoped or expected to happen aren't applicable to long running anime like pokemon is. Be that 10, 1000 oe 10,000 episodes for all I care.

If anything how much story and character can and will develop depends solely on how far writer will go having liberty and means to take its creations(protagonists, support cast, anti hero etc) in new directions advancing further their own goals and evolving as person/trainer, introducing new obstacles put in front of them having to learn on mistakes and how to overcome them along with being revealed more about their past bringing up things they forgot to include first time around.

We see that all the time in other media such as long running manga; Like One Piece where Eiichiro Oda decided to extend story and push its characters in new directions enriching on personalities and plots after initially being planned that manga lasts only 5 years having already constructed ending for every character and goal they chased after.

Yet despite large episode count things like substantial story, strong continuity, good character development are still present . With new ideas, plots and improvisation supporting story which can go for well over 1000, if not even close to 2000 episodes once that anime finally ends.

When Akira Toriyama due to popular fan demand gave up from replacing Goku in DBZ after Freeza saga finished. Bringing his character back in natural way without destroying continuity and fluid storyline developed until that point witnessing to main hero continuing to grow. Deal with various struggles in life, bigger more dangerous villains searching for ways to go beyond his limits and mature as character without losing initial appeal.

In literature for instance popular Scottish Physician and writers Arthur Conan Doyle got sick of main hero he wrote for Sherlock Holmes deciding to replace him and end story by getting killed.

But thanks to his loyal readers and massive public outcry and demand he after some reconsideration decided to revive character in 1901. coming up with novel which would explain in between how Sherlock Holmes survived and cheated death, continuing to publish new novels and stories based on this famous fictional character. Writing for him more than 30 years publishing 56 stories and 4 novels before he died with others continuing to release works afterwards.

Yet readers never got bored or wanted that new works around this character stop eagerly waiting for new adventures being told with this to many described as peculiar protagonist. Eventually this fictional character was retired, but it had very long life span.

So no, i do not buy how writers and directors while no one expected masterpiece and caliber of writing similar to works of Mary Ann Evans, James Joyce, Tolstoy etc.

Couldn't have done in hundreds of episodes at very least more concrete character development in doing one prominent step forward with Ash and his friends(winning league was never presented as end game nor there would be no room to go forward from there), Have better connection to past delivering updates and sequels to replaced characters bringing them through either recurring roles or as help for newer cast in offering their experience and what they learned in meantime to help push new plots forward. Same goes for older pokemon and previous plots.

Or to cover everything under same denominator called: continuity.

As well more organized and compact adventure.

What you'll find is, if you treat Pokemon like one giant body of work - which many people do - it's going to look awful. It looks awful because it is awful. But before we bitch and moan about how awful it is, we have to consider the unique circumstances around the show's development and limitations the writers are under.

Problem is that this was how Pokémon has always been presented: as "giant body of work". It always sent message of this series being treated as one big entity. Supposedly long on going adventure set in same universe, same timeline and continuity where through eyes of main hero(Ash)and his companions new creatures, regions and mysteries are discovered. Which carries out message of apparent "plot driven story of working toward previously founded dreams", "strong bonds and friendships" it hypocritically promotes being next day forgotten and never revisited. Rather than telling to viewers how build up of relationships between Ash and his companions, their influence on him and story amounted to something. With legacy and someone place counting in this adventure.

Or introducing plots one by one in previous generations just to be dragged on indefinitely until they get forgotten about or bluntly ignored. Ash connection to Ho-Oh. GS ball, whole question about Aura and their guardians, dreams and various goals, even shipping angle if Misty and more obviously Serena were something to go by etc, etc.

Having large pile of wasted ideas, unfinished dreams and unresolved stories for not just Ash, but every single one of his traveling friends. Be that Misty, Brock, Serena, Max, Cilan etc, etc.

Those in charge sorry to say either do not care or do not know how to build loyalty and reputation among their viewers. Sticking with series even after becoming adults and thanks to stable story which builds on itself, significant continuity, well organized character development and new plot ideas creating ground in having easier time in alluring new viewers back into it. Especially in today market where huge number of shows with similar theme like Pokemon are fighting for viewers attention.

And having anime like Pokemon with disconnected adventure, static main protagonist, no bridges left to connerct presence with past in form of keeping older major characters and pokemon relevant. There's not much to offer for people im afraid. Producers and writers could learn a lot about this things from those in charge of "One Piece!", "Fairy Tail!", "Dragon Ball!" etc. In how to retain older audience while still having door open for new younger kids to join already established fanbase and viewers.

Because pokemon anime has very bad reputation based on what Iisaw and still do for all this years.

 

[ii kanji]

I often agree with you @pokemon fan 132 but I'm afraid in this case I see a fundamental flaw in wyou are suggesting: it cannot make sense for any character to grow and develop as much as would naturally happen in x number of years, whilst said character doesn't age. There is only so much progress which can be believed to have happened in "<1 time".

If Satoshi, for example, matures too much, he will not make a realistic and relatable 10 year old. And let's say Pokemon Medical School has no minimum age limit, academic entry requirement or fixed start date so Takeshi can start right away... He STILL cannot progress beyond the level of a first year student.

 

[sc190191]

XYZ was still a very entertaining show, isn't that the idea? If you don't like it, don't watch it, simple as that. I get being upset with losing characters and lack of continuity, I really wish there was more continuity too, but saying the series is declining doesn't really fit with the general consensus that XY was preferred to BW.

I think one of the idea's missing from Ash not winning the Pokemon league is just how hard it is to be the best at something. The vast majority of us will never be the best in the world, our country, our region, our city, even our smaller community at anything. I get that Ash is the main protagonist of the show so we want to expect great things from him, but the fact that he isn't just the greatest is what makes him relatable to the vast majority of people in this world who aren't, like say, Mike Trout or Lebron James. I honestly think parts of the Indigo league were more annoying, because of the lack of actual good trainers. Its realistic to realize that there are a lot of great trainers in a world where Pokemon battles is the most popular event.

Now I do agree that Pokemon Master could use a bit of a better definition, because Ash just says those words, without them really meaning anything. I would like some clarification on either what that is, or what he actually is trying to accomplish. Maybe this is a translation issue, I'm not sure?

 

[CrystaI]

OK, just let me summarize the arguments and counterarguments established in here:

Pokemon Anime story is bad because Ash is not progressing toward his dream, he is going in endless circle.
But the writers can’t end his story. They need to make him going in circle such that they can continue advertise new generation of games.
If advertising the game was the purpose of the anime, they should have replaced Ash as they enter new generation.
But Ash (and TRio) had become the icon of Pokemon Anime, they can’t replace him.
If you can’t replace him, then at least write a better story such that he (and his companions) had a more meaningful adventure, what he does now will contribute to his latter performance.
But he can’t progress, because progression means stepping towards ending. To prevent progression, he can only do the same things again and again.
Do you really think audience will have the patience to continue watching the same thing again and again? Eventually they will bored out and leave.
Yeah, that’s why his traveling companions are replaced every series, to keep it look fresh.
Is that what you call “fresh”? That is just old wine in new bottle, at the end of the day it is still Ash’s adventure going in circle.
It doesn’t matter, as long as the new set of kids coming in every now and then attracted to the show. Pokemon is a kiddie anime aimed at them.
If new set of kids coming in every now and then, shouldn’t it means any past history doesn’t matter to them? Why put in so many past reference and continuity to “confuse” the new audience? Why still insist in using Ash Ketchum as the protagonist if past doesn’t matter?
It is there to hold back the leaving of old fans.
Oh, so now you acknowledge Pokemon Anime has audience of higher ages? Then you should understand old fans wanted to see Ash achieve something big so badly. He is going in circle for already 20 years.
I said it, Ash cannot progress, or else the show will end. He also cannot age, or else the audience will become unable to related to him.
Huh? How can we related ourselves to an ageless 10-year-old that in one saga he is arrogant in another saga he is competent and another saga he is idiot and another he is the chosen savior? We the audience are never as inconsistent as Ash Ketchum.
Don’t treat the entire Pokemon Anime as one big journey. Each region is a self-contained adventure.
If each region is a self-contained adventure, why do we even need continuity? Either replace Ash, or reboot the character of Ash.
Neither. Ash cannot be replaced because he is the icon, the writer can’t reboot his character either because audience are attracted to this 10-year-old trainer from Kanto Pallet aiming to become Pokemon Master.
When each saga is a self-contained adventure without cross-saga continuity, who would care is the protagonist Ash Ketchum or Red or Ethan or Brenden or Lucas or Hilbert or Calem or my fanfic OC?
......

Up to this point, I would cease to continue, because arguments and counterarguments starting to go in loop.

Edit: BTW, anyone sees the logic fallacy in here? I think I had grasp it's shadow lurking somewhere around...


Just a little mention to add a bit of my personal argument to the last point. Ash Ketchum is in fact also just another impersonation of RGB!Red. The latest interview with the director of Pokemon XY&Z already confirmed that even XY!Ash is based on the combination of the “Red” character they knew from original Pokemon game and current generation’s male player aka Calem. That means in nowadays, not even the anime staff deemed Ash Ketchum as the Ash Ketchum with solid background as we fans deemed, but just a soulless icon with similarities of the in-game player avatar.

Everything is just meaningless, including the very story of Ash Ketchum and his dream of Pokemon Master. (for the latter, it is really literally meaningless, simply because it doesn’t have a solid meaning!)

Up to this point, what more should I expect from Pokemon Anime? In any case I had long cease to expect anything from the Pokemon Anime…

 

[pokemon fan 132]

I often agree with you @pokemon fan 132 but I'm afraid in this case I see a fundamental flaw in wyou are suggesting: it cannot make sense for any character to grow and develop as much as would naturally happen in x number of years, whilst said character doesn't age. There is only so much progress which can be believed to have happened in "<1 time".

If Satoshi, for example, matures too much, he will not make a realistic and relatable 10 year old. And let's say Pokemon Medical School has no minimum age limit, academic entry requirement or fixed start date so Takeshi can start right away... He STILL cannot progress beyond the level of a first year student.

Only problem here is, did they succeeded in keeping Ash relatable and realistic 10 year old in here in first place? Because his personality fluctuated and was alternated so many times over the course of past 20 years and after 7 regions worth of travelling that many fans based on complaints i often see cannot even identify themselves with it anymore.

In one moment like in DP or XY people get feeling how Ash isn't even acting as 10 year old, but more like a teen, yet in next one like in BW he's acting even less mature than he was in OS. Feeling like he was demoted in personality.
Same for some other traveling companions. Because for example May at end of AG or in DP or Misty in late Johto, Hoenn actually acted more responsible and mature based on subtle differences in their behavior than 10 year old would. It was more like they were teenagers in early years.

Maybe if they kept time passing and aging ambiguous in this anime letting to viewers interpretation how old he or other characters are, entertainment value and progression of characters themselves for viewers would be increased.

I understand and can see what your saying.

However while yes no aging policy prevents how far you can go with character construction and growth; even though i don't see how would small time skip like 2 to 3 years in course of 20 years destroy thrill of following main protagonist and his friends adventure. It could instead make long journey and all achievements, fall downs and improvements make more credible and believable adding to consistency(instead being supposed to accept how not even one year passed after everything Ash and others went through).

That still doesn't mean how more couldn't been done in 20 years with driving force behind this show such as Ash. In making first step toward accomplishing his dream and reaching final destination. Introduce some other elements in his story like father adding struggle and self doubts within himself. Or add new challenges and benchmarks for him to explore and overcome utilizing past knowledge to new situations.

That still doesn't mean how in 20 years we couldn't get anime filled with stronger and better continuity. Not forgetting but keeping in some shape or form present past main characters being brought back when they could be of help for new story, Or do follow up on their dropped and unfinished adventures.

Accompanied with journey being done as more fluid and rewarding to watch for ordinary viewer himself instead of having this giant mess were dealing with right now.

Point wasn't that Ash and others could reach heights if growth other protagonists in anime where aging is allowed should and could go in anime which has no definite ending. But there could have been done a whole lot more, much more in having better organized and coherent character development and story itself in 2 decades than what we got instead. Cracking in some segments endless status quo instead of keeping everything in this loop forever.

Hence why the so much frustration and disappointment accumulated within big majority of viewers over the years. And i cannot say i blame them.

 

[Shadao]

Am I having deja vu or have we all read this very same post before?

I've seen this post before on Serebii. And I am not surprised about this essay of rant. However, I disagree that Amourshipping is dead. Oh no, not after that kiss. If anything, it reinforced people's support of the ship for years to come. But let's get on with the question about Ash and the show.

I will say this. There's a reason why old fans would be passionate and defensive over franchises and shows that are nothing more than a ploy to sell toys for kids. Not only is it a big part of many people's childhood, but the ideas that the Pokémon show has to offer struck cord with many even if the main intention was be a commercial. As children grow older, they do want their child icons to either grow up with them or have new interpretations of the basic ideas for their children to watch. Which is why the anime is always in a state of controversy. The show doesn't seem to know if it's a continuation of Ash's first adventure or a new incarnation of Ash altogether. And the problem with keeping Ash and yet not developing him is that sooner or later, people would start forgetting why they follow Ash in the first place. Why is Ash important? Why does he matter? If I replace Pikachu's backstory and say Ash is a native of Alola, I doubt the new generation of kids would notice anything different. Only old and non-targeted fans.

There are many timeless characters, but fans have always been a major influence. Especially when they get older and are able to get into the industry. And it's quite telling that more people show interest in Ash's first adventure retold in a movie than any legendary of the day movie the anime used for the past films. Back when there was something for Ash to prove himself for rather than do something just because it's there.

I think that's one of the big weaknesses I feel in the Sun & Moon anime. What exactly does Alola has to offer that Ash hasn't already learned in the past series? Fishing? Egg-caring? Cooking? Fighting bigger versions of Pokémon? It's this type of problem that causing me to lose interest in Ash's journey right now.