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My Big Problem with the Pokémon Anime - An Essay and a Rant

Let's bring a poll to this discussion. What do you think is more likely to happen first?

  • Ash wins the Pokémon League and/or becomes a Pokémon Master

    Votes: 29 34.1%
  • Our generation will pass away entirely

    Votes: 56 65.9%

  • Total voters
    85
I'd add to this that, in the first place, the source material they were adapting them was very bare bones. Red/Blue/Green didn't have a story or in-depth characters, so adapting it required a lot of expansion. The games would improve their storytelling and characters over time but still didn't provide enough content to fully adapt into three year seasons. So for every new season there's always that question of: how can this be expanded? And not all the answers turn out well.

I always have a question regarding on this "adaption" thing. Pokemon Anime is indeed based on Pokemon main series game. But, how much it was adapted? Or may be more specifically speaking, what specifically was adapted?

Someone in another thread had mentioned, Pokemon main series is very casual which can basically summarized into: A child chosen by the professor to go around the world to complete the Pokedex, as the player go around looking for pokemons and battling trainers along the road, they encounter the villain team, and become involved in their business. <-- That's the most important part. Badge and League? Well they are not part of the story, they are only part of the gameplay and background geography. Gameplay =/= Story.

But yet, despite being barebone, one cannot deny that events still happened within the game.
For example in the first RGB game. Yeah despite I would also agree that player character is characterless (simply because it is not a character, but the player's avatar), but none can deny that these events still existed in the game: When player reaches the Mt.Moon, there is an incident of first encounter with TR member. When going to Cerulean City, there is a house left with aftermaths of TR member breaking in. In Lavender Town there is the Pokemon Tower incident. In Saffron City there is the Silph Company hijacking incident by TR. Maybe these events also requires massive expansion in order to adapt to become dramatic story narratable on-screen, but none can deny that, at least they existed in the game.

Other than these events, the Pewter City has Museum, north of Cerulean there is the Nugget Bridge, Vermilion is a harbor city heart to the Pokemon Fan Club, Celadon has a big department store, Cinnabar Island has pokemon laboratory and the abandoned house. Well these places does not have any specific story nor important events, but none can deny that they indeed existed in there.

But, how many of these do we saw in OS Anime? How much of these already-existed materials are utilized for further expansion? How much of the game story and overworld are "adapted" into the anime in any format? One should know the answer if one had watch the Pokemon Anime.

Although I do not ask for faithful adaption as much as Origin (IMO, not even Origin is good enough, due to length problem), but I do not understand why the Pokemon Anime adapt so little key events and important geography from the original source, rather go all the way to take originality interpretation and original story plot, to the point that is no more "expansion", but alternative universe different from the GameVerse.


Well at the beginning it may not bother the new audience. But as time goes on it provides an inevitable doubt when the official anime canon continuously align themselves with the newest game title, and the more game elements they put in (yet IMO, poor execution).

And I really doubt that filler episodes will still be that much, when they adapt a bit more of the already-existed game story, because then we need more story build-up episodes that will contributes to future episodes and the Big Decisive Battle that one expected to come eventually.
And also, due to their alignment with the game, that also becomes the source of discussion argument and debate material regarding on the story plot of Pokemon Anime throughout the fandom.
 
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lol 20 years passed and I still can't say for sure what's a "Pokemon Master", our protagonist's main goal.

Also have any of you noticed Satoshi used to say his goal way more often in Kanto than he does nowadays?
 
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Or may be more specifically speaking, what specifically was adapted?
At its core Pokémon is about Pokémon. That's what the audience wants to see. The monsters are the key draw. Back when the game sprites were just little green and grey pixels, seeing your favorite pokemon in an episode of the anime was cool because it added so much that the games lacked. Even as the art in game improved drastically to the point of 3D models, it's still appealing to see mons you played with in game moving around and doing stuff in the animated medium. To this day it's exciting to see the name of one of your favorite pokemon show up in an episode title because it means you'll finally get to see it. Often people hope a series regular catches their favorites just so they'll get more chances to see it.

If you were to make a show that adapted every human character and location from a pokemon game but no pokemon, and a show that just transposed pokemon into some other continuity, kids would be more easily drawn to the later simply because "oh look it's cool fighting monsters."

I'm guessing I'm in the minority here, but I actually came back to the anime for SM. The fact that it's a complete change of pace is refreshing, and as someone who really enjoys Hosoda, I like that the animation style seems to take a lot from his more dynamic art style at the expense of necessarily always staying on character model. I haven't watched regularly since DP ended, back when I'd watch live through Keyhole, but BW was such a buzzkill it turned me off entirely.

On the subject of DP, I'd just like to take a moment to defend my favorite league seeing as it's mentioned in the OP. People always moan about Tobias, but I think he's a fantastic character. Throughout DP, people had basically been comparing Paul to Smogon, and competitive battlers in general. Releasing pokemon he didn't think were strong enough or had the wrong natures or abilities or whatever. Comparatively, Ash is a total, pardon my French, Karenfag. That was really the central dispute between the two of them that whole series, and the final resolution is that Ash eventually succeeds in defeating him in the league. Then, the very next round Ash is beaten by the kid who catches legendaries and keeps them on his team to steamroll just about everyone. Or the equivalent of Ubers. Take your pick. That league had actually good battles, but you could also read it as a bit more meta take on the game series. I'm sure in retrospect people thought that was a much more palatable loss than when he lost to that kid with 5 pokemon in BW.

Also have any of you noticed Satoshi used to say his goal way more often in Kanto than he does nowadays?
It's the same as them dropping "Gotta catch 'em all" from the main series. As the world continued to expand, they realized that that the goal of Pokémon Master didn't really mean much, and because they couldn't actually define it they shied away from it. It's the Emerson quote, "Life's a journey, not a destination."
 
On the subject of DP, I'd just like to take a moment to defend my favorite league seeing as it's mentioned in the OP. People always moan about Tobias, but I think he's a fantastic character. Throughout DP, people had basically been comparing Paul to Smogon, and competitive battlers in general. Releasing pokemon he didn't think were strong enough or had the wrong natures or abilities or whatever. Comparatively, Ash is a total, pardon my French, Karenfag. That was really the central dispute between the two of them that whole series, and the final resolution is that Ash eventually succeeds in defeating him in the league. Then, the very next round Ash is beaten by the kid who catches legendaries and keeps them on his team to steamroll just about everyone. Or the equivalent of Ubers. Take your pick. That league had actually good battles, but you could also read it as a bit more meta take on the game series. I'm sure in retrospect people thought that was a much more palatable loss than when he lost to that kid with 5 pokemon in BW.

When it comes to Tobias, I think what most take issue with isn't that he uses legendaries but that he came from nowhere. He was unheard of until the league so it feels like his entire purpose was just to beat Ash. If he had appeared throughout the show and if we knew where he got Darkrai and Latios from it would have been far more acceptable.
 
OP, I feel you and I enjoy the anime for fundamentally different reasons; you seem to enjoy it if it leads to the means you desire, I enjoy it for the rich array of experiences it brings to our protagonist. I noticed that the piece of dialogue that you felt "meant something" to you, that the writers were considerate of the premise:

Ash: Of course! I don't think anything is pointless.

later contradicts your ending note...

Ash's repeated failures and subsequent move to a new region renders everything he does pointless.
(emphasis added, mine)

Ash Ketchum - and the writers - don't agree with you. Of course, it's a cashcow anime which seems to enjoy using its protagonist as a mascot to continue the brand appearance so having a purposefully vague goal that will not be achieved quickly is rather beneficial.

However to be much less cynical about it, you acknowledge that the term is so vague that it's unsure as to what its exact requirements are - naturally, winning a league might be one of the prerequisites but so might so many other concepts: catching all the Pokemon, developing a sense of bonding and trust with all Pokemon he encounters, befriending legendaries, yielding supernatural power in connection to Pokemon, understanding all there is to Pokemon, even - understanding different career paths (I always find people consider what it means to be the Pokemon Master in a rather trainer-centric way; I know the anime alludes to it like this, but I think such an omnipotent goal probably encompasses more career types than just trainer).

I feel that you are dismissive of the multi-dimensional properties of being a Pokemon Master and that Ash's experiences, as said by the boy himself, are not pointless. Losing a league is not pointless to becoming Pokemon Master; it gives Ash a new experience that he can utilise in the future - you might argue "he doesn't seem to do that!" but progress isn't linear and I like that the anime captures that hard note of realism. You will have set backs but does not mean your set backs are pointless. They add to the experience. Will Ash ever become a Pokemon Master? Who knows. Is his dream still alive, is he still as curious and eager as ever to try and achieve it? I think he is, and I think that's what matters.

Not everyone achieves their goals, OP but it doesn't render their attempts useless. The premise says "he dreams of becoming a Pokemon Master" - and guess what? He still does. He never gives up, no matter what - he smilingly faces the next day, I have to say - that might make you feel pessimistic, but I wish I could be like that.

I feel that Ash's concept of nothing being pointless to his goal - and the anime's different approaches to his journey and goal every season, even though sometimes, yes, it does feel like continuity can be disregarded - makes it fascinating to watch for these experiences alone and the many fluid, creative approaches to the eternal question that will bother us all: what does it mean to be a Pokemon Master, anyways?
 
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I kinda gave up Ash winning a league after that trainwreck of Best Wishes, but I had been certainly feeling hopeful about the Kalos League because they were hyping it up a lot. I don't like that Ash lost, but Alain was one of my favorite characters so I'm not too disappointed that Alain won. If anything, I'm actually glad that it WAS Alain that Ash lost to instead of another hastily created Tobias v.2 - could have been much worse.

I guess it all comes down to how you watch the anime as an old-timer - watch it either to just feel endlessly disappointed, or find some other enjoyment and memorable gems in it.

And speaking of how we're not the target audience, I have to agree that we're not the target audience for the anime. But I have to disagree that we're not the target audience for the entire franchise, otherwise they wouldn't be promoting nostalgia marketing like mad, as in Pokemon GO, Origins, Generations, and the many Kanto references for the past two generations. Heck, I can't even count the number of Gen1-related merchandises introduced to the Pokemon Stores for the past few months. The next movie even hints at a trip down nostalgia lane on Ash's very first episode ever. If anything, they still care about the old-timers because we grew up to be adults who can actually earn wages and pay for what would satisfy our childhood memories whenever we want, not cling to our parents in hopes that we'd get a gift from Santa once a year and feel disappointed when we're told we're "too old" for pokemon. It's precisely that we're "old" enough to be the regular consumers that they haven't stopped nostalgia marketing, no? And we'd be the ones to introduce pokemon to our kids, sharing exciting memories and enjoy the franchise as a family (which was even shown in part of the trailer for Pokemon GO where families are enjoying pokemon together). We're the "reliables" that they know would come back and fawn over the cuteness of Pikachu and Jigglypuff if they need to sell stuff, and pick up pokemon toys for our babies (if there's any). Yes, there will always be new kids to join the fandom and get their parents to buy them pokemon merchandises... but I think we reached a point where the old-timers have reached the age of parenting those very kids. In other words, give or take a few years, those "new kids to join" are most likely our kids, and when the parents who'd willingly open their wallets to pay for pokemon merchandises for them? Likely us. The old-timers. The ones who grew up with pokemon. So the argument that the pokemon franchise aren't going to do anything at all to appeal to us? That would be nonsense. It might not carry on to the anime side, but seeing how the next movie teaser was about triggering nostalgia... it wouldn't exactly make sense for them to completely ignore us. Even if we're not directly the target audience for the anime, there should be some treats occasionally. Not that it's necessary, but we're the ones to pay for the new audience of kids for the years to come after all - even the ones who dropped out of the fandom after the OS.

Personally, instead of doing something to the tv series, a 2-hour movie or a series of OVAs with Ash winning a league would be pretty nice and satisfactory for nostalgia marketing reasons, even if it's not based on a region we know. Satisfy the needs of the old-timers, keep them attached to the boy from Pallet Town, and have them wipe their tears when they see him win a league and get them to buy more pokemon products. But I guess that's just wishful thinking.
 
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First of all I just want to thank everyone who has participated in this discussion, including those who have viewpoints that are not in harmony with mine's. It's nice to have some dialogue in here about the issues of the Pokémon anime, containing a debate yet with minimal insulting/flaming. I already prefer this forum over Serebii for those reasons.

I do not hide the fact that I hate the anime with a passion for its refusal to make any progress towards Ash becoming a Pokémon Master and its failure to create a credible continuity; however, I do not want to hate this anime, and I hope that the status quo problem gets fixed as soon as possible. How that can be done, I don't know; but I hope to find out.

I plan to respond to a select amount of posts and comment on some users; it may take a while but I will get it done.
 
Little late, but i was busy and sooner my answer couldn't be delivered:
It's not ideal but that's just human. The longer you work on a single project the less enthusiastic you become. When there's little accountability for screw ups there's little motivation to improve, because a human can only motivate himself so much before he needs help from external factors.

I should add, I have few doubts that the staff working on Pokemon are very passionate and very hard working. It's just their thinking and creativity that's become stuck.

Depends on writers themselves and each human individual separately. Some writers like challenges seeking for ways to exceed and outdone what they have accomplished so far. Give to themselves greater challenges trying to break boundaries and see how far their limit in creativity and talent reaches.

Some may be passionate, while some not so much.

But when superiors restrain your hands limiting what and how much you can do with characters and story, most importantly whole setting in which everything takes place. When your ideas and suggestions sare consistently discarded not being allowed to express your creativity than it becomes very hard to have any enthusiasm and dedication to begin with.

With biggest blame being on shoulders of like I said mostly directors and producers themselves.

You brought up an interesting word there: fatigue. The use of formulas and repetition of ideas absolutely leads to fatigue for writers and fans alike. But even if the show did everything you wanted to do, there would be still be fatigue. Because nothing can last that long, at such a relentless pace, without people getting fed up or worn out. Now I'm not saying this is justification for not making a better show, but ultimately all paths lead to the same destination. The problems the show have now - namely, the loss of interest and viewers - would still be a problem even after we apply all the "fixes".

Maybe there would be, that is pretty much unavoidable. However if it weren't for constant resets of Ash journey, other main characters being replaced and dropped like trash, continuity not being eradicated, development not being stuck in loop of repetition and immobility alongside pokemon series having direction and objective to follow no matter for how long it may have taken to get there.

Pokemon would be today show with greater reputation, higher popularity, bigger number of viewers satisfied earning their loyalty and stronger foundations.

Thanks to long wait being rewarded with big steps forward done with Ash and his traveling companions,. New secrets about roots of their existence being revealed. New content being delivered with stories being maintain , updated and going somewhere instead of lying down in mud forgotten like they never mattered.

Being in much better shape than it is today.
Fans want more original subplots, variety to journey and unpredictable twists revitalizing whole adventure aspect, hard work, and "seemingly close bonds established between humans and pokemon".

Feeling pokemon anime became too commercialized over time to the point of losing identity which defined him and main objective it tried to follow long time ago.

If you're in those positions, the primary concern isn't making the Pokemon anime an excellent and gripping story. It's making money. You'd be surprised how thin the connection between the two are.

As far as they're concerned, as long as the games are still selling by the millions, as long as merchandise is flying off the shelves and as long as their brand is still highly recognizable, the actual quality of their products aren't that big an issue for them. Does that sound wrong? Of course it does. But every big franchise in the world behaves in this way.

This is especially significant as Pokemon, and by extension Nintendo, have a reputation for playing it safe. They're not going to shake up their creative staff or give them more freedom because there's a risk of the product venturing away from its money-making groove.

One doesn't have to exclude the other. You can have both great story filled with believable and rationale progression of plot and its characters. Yet at same time making money and making industry in which your specializing in lucrative.

Something Digimon, One Piece, Fairy Tail, Dragon Ball etc are, were doing.

As statistics, overall atmosphere and reputation is showing playing constantly on "safe and status quo" started to backfire badly with same moves and strategies starting to wear thin asking for change.

No change and no risk is obstacle in road of evolution and development. And those who cannot or don't adapt to cope with modern times, what is asked and expected in market are going down the alley of dinosaurs: extinction.

Moreover somehow i heavily doubt how stronger character development, more throwbacks to past treating Ash journey as continuous story and staying faithful to elements and foundations on which Pokemon was created and build upon would cause lose of money and alienate its audience.

If anything not changing anything and stifling writers creativity and freedom of thinking is doing this.

Your argument falls flat because it's a massive assumption. How do you know what every Pokemon fan wants?

This is where us being in our late-teens or in our 20s, posting on internet forums, hinders our perspective. What you read on Bulbagarden, Serebii, and other forms of social media suggests that people want better continuity, characters, etc etc but what we don't realize is that we only represent a very small percentage of the overall Pokemon fanbase. What we want is in no way indicative of what the overall fanbase wants. And that's not even accounting for the diversity of opinion within our own "section" of the fanbase.

Case in point, your generalization of what Pokemon fans want doesn't apply to me. I actually don't care nearly as much about continuity, plot and character development as much as you do. I used to, but I discovered different reasons to watch the show. I value different aspects of the show, and I know a lot of other fans are the same.

I'm not pitting one side against the other here, rather just pointing out not everyone wants the same thing. From the staff's perspective, when making changes to the show to bring viewers back they have to weigh these various wants and needs against each other fully aware they won't be able to satisfy everybody.

Here's something to consider: Pokemon XYZ made a lot of the changes to the show that the "majority" was assumed to have wanted. It was action heavy, slightly "darker" than before, with a highly competent protagonist who had a legitimate love interest, with an actual storyline with references to things that had happened in the past, and a finale that was novel as far as the rest of the show was concerned. There was character development and progression to some form of goal. It was pretty and had wonderful animation. Great music as well.

Yet, for all that, it still lost out to Yokai Watch. It did not fix anything. For every fan it brought back it drove away another. Because not everyone wanted Pokemon to be that way.

So calling the changes made for Sun and Moon "cosmetic" and "minor and insignificant" greatly understates what they are actually changing. Their experiments with XY and XYZ didn't work, so they're going in the opposite direction. They're going in a direction which they believe will resonate with young viewers. Time will tell how successful it is, but there's actual evidence now that the things us older fans thought the show needed to improve didn't change much of anything. We had misdiagnosed what the actual problems with the show were.

Ultimately, it's impossible to satisfy both the young and older parts of the fanbase. They have to choose one and they went with young viewers. Older viewers have to accept they're never going to cater to us.

I cannot know what every single person wants, but when you see same pattern of opinions prevailing on numerous forums, youtube, social networks and sites I have been ti over the years complaining about exact same thing. Such as: static development, story without direction, no continuity, character replacing etc.

Is when you start to reconsider if this truly is just outcry of vocal minority as far as older pokemon fans are concerned? Or this is indication of big enough sample group to sufficiently represent what is general consensus among most older pokemon fans?

Same way statistics are made. Basing what is public stance about something on selected and interrogated big enough sample group of people to find out in what direction wind breeze. Or to be more precise what most could want. Since in practice interrogating every person would be highly impractical, costly and incredibly time consuming.

Obviously move for errors exist, but based on polls, talks to fans in real life, pokemon sites and various online places I met far more people who were bothered rather than not with this things.

Whether we are talking about fans who still watch pokemon but expressing disappointment. Or those who used to follow it but quit at some point due to growing sick of status quo.

As Scottish philosopher David Hume used to say; " induction is reliable until proven unreliable, is true until proven untrue. The way it is proven untrue is to observe something that goes against the observations that sustained the original premises that sustained the conclusion."

Speaking of XY and XYZ series yes it did brought great animation, battles of high quality, character development and all of that. But many who liked direction in which show was going still ended heavily disappointed.

Why?
Not because they disliked this changes, but because there was absolutely zero continuity(no flashbacks, no return of past characters, no references, not even traditional replaced female getting cameo in subsequent series), series lacked humor, Ash for many people taste felt too formal with limited expressions and personality traits followed by huge letdowns. Such as Ash failing to go all way through at league yet again after whole region emphasizing on him going to the very end.

If Kalos saga retained popular elements and added those which were missing changes are big majority if viewers would have no problems with it managing to satisfy a lot bigger number than it was the case.

IN other words most people want status quo to be break with Ash story moving forward, anime establishing connection to past regions being treated as on going adventure.

I also don't think older viewers and how big their group is should be underestimated. Because total number of those who follow pokemon anime frequently, those who occasionally check in watching it from time to time, number of fans who left but would be willing to comeback if whole endless cycle of repetition and stagnation was to be softened up could very well be counted in millions. And that's not even counting large concentration of fans who quit after OS ended and Misty left still hoping for original cast reunion for another adventure.
Sure anime and those who work on it are primarily focused on young kids, but given how nu
number of older fans who abandoned pokemon series is allot greater than number of new kids joining in. Impose question of its own?

Is older demographic of fans who still care for pokemon series but cannot put up anymore with nothing changing really is that small and insignificant as some would think?

Most of all why not cater both to younger and older demographic at same time? Like other anime and shows i brought are doing delivering stronger stories and rewarding older viewers for their loyalty and sticking to anime and franchise, while at same time having relaxing, lighthearted elements intertwined with core if adventure itself which is appealing to younger generations which decide to join in and start watching these shows.

Whether we want to admit it or not. Current strategy of completely ignoring older viewer demographic and trying to emulate what other anime are doing to attract new kids is counterproductive and ineffective in longer run.

Since straying away from pokemon roots, what this series promoted and used to be around not doing it any favor at all honestly.

Nonetheless i still stay firm to my previous assessment how fans want more original subplots, variety to journey and unpredictable twists revitalizing whole adventure aspect, hard work, and "seemingly close bonds established between humans and pokemon".

Changes which XY or SM brought or are about to bring up can be of greatest quality but they can hardly leave any mark in pleasing audience if they're lacking defined and coherent adventure, fleshed out protagonists with Ash and others moving somewhere with growth accumulated before leading toward something in future. If there is no continuity which serves as insurance for any credible story in having depth, veracity and identity behind itself.

That's same as preparing perfect dish in technical sense, but lacking spice to season it up and deliver texture which would conjoin all ingredients in rhapsody of taste and pleasure.

As side effect pokemon community and viewers either cannot stand still and accept whatever rubbish is served in front of them(hence why many complain and I cannot judge them for that; especially if their arguments are valid). Or they just eventually grow apathetic, careless and ultimately indifferent about show quality and glaring issues this show suffers from.
Either way none of this is good thing reflecting how anime failed to deliver rewarding job to customers.

Maybe its not the best comparison out there, but i think most would get what i tried to say with this.
 
Is there any reason to assume that pokemon anime has a "status quo" problem? They always makes changes to main characters and series to differentiate it from the previous ones. Heck, most of criticism of XY comes from changes they do to the usual formula.
 
I assumed that the status quo problem was referring to keeping Ash as the main lead and not having him win a regional League. It is true that each series has their own kind of status quo. The anime does try out new concepts and ideas with each series, but just not as much as I think some older fans would like them to do.
 
One doesn't have to exclude the other. You can have both great story filled with believable and rationale progression of plot and its characters. Yet at same time making money and making industry in which your specializing in lucrative.

Something Digimon, One Piece, Fairy Tail, Dragon Ball etc are, were doing.

...

Moreover somehow i heavily doubt how stronger character development, more throwbacks to past treating Ash journey as continuous story and staying faithful to elements and foundations on which Pokemon was created and build upon would cause lose of money and alienate its audience.

One doesn't have to exclude the other, but look around at the most successful franchises in the world and you'll find for a lot of them success is not synonymous with quality.

Even the examples you provided show this. Digimon faded completely post Tamers despite the popularity of the first three seasons. Fairy Tail is consistent but a very average story with static characters. Dragonball's quality took a dive in the Buu saga.

These are, of course, subjective views but an anime (excluding movies) that is both an excellent story and a commercial success is a very rare thing.

As for that second part: I don't even disagree. I was just pointing out that we're talking about risk-averse companies reliant on their cash cow bringing the money in. The key decision makers will be reluctant to sanction changes to their cash cow unless it wasn't bringing in money.

I cannot know what every single person wants, but when you see same pattern of opinions prevailing on numerous forums, youtube, social networks and sites I have been ti over the years complaining about exact same thing. Such as: static development, story without direction, no continuity, character replacing etc.

Is when you start to reconsider if this truly is just outcry of vocal minority as far as older pokemon fans are concerned? Or this is indication of big enough sample group to sufficiently represent what is general consensus among most older pokemon fans?

Same way statistics are made. Basing what is public stance about something on selected and interrogated big enough sample group of people to find out in what direction wind breeze. Or to be more precise what most could want. Since in practice interrogating every person would be highly impractical, costly and incredibly time consuming.

Obviously move for errors exist, but based on polls, talks to fans in real life, pokemon sites and various online places I met far more people who were bothered rather than not with this things.

You've taken the opinion from a sample of a single demographic that might be indicative of a consensus for that single demographic. So what about the other demographics? What about first-time viewers? What about younger viewers who have watched for three years? What about older viewers who still watch but who haven't been influenced by online narrative?

I'm not asking you to provide these things. But what you're doing here is taking just one consensus and trying to make it seem like it's the overall consensus. All you've done is establish a pattern of opinion within one segment of the fanbase, even though that pattern doesn't represent what that one segment actually thinks. The opinions within that single segment are diverse.

Frankly, there's confirmation bias here. You're finding other fans that share the same opinion as you and believing it's a majority opinion without considering that there are many others who don't share those views.

I also don't think older viewers and how big their group is should be underestimated. Because total number of those who follow pokemon anime frequently, those who occasionally check in watching it from time to time, number of fans who left but would be willing to comeback if whole endless cycle of repetition and stagnation was to be softened up could very well be counted in millions. And that's not even counting large concentration of fans who quit after OS ended and Misty left still hoping for original cast reunion for another adventure.
Sure anime and those who work on it are primarily focused on young kids, but given how nu
number of older fans who abandoned pokemon series is allot greater than number of new kids joining in. Impose question of its own?

Is older demographic of fans who still care for pokemon series but cannot put up anymore with nothing changing really is that small and insignificant as some would think?

Nobody has exact numbers on this so anything we say here would just be baseless assumption. What I can say, though, is that older fans are insignificant not because of numbers but because the very product itself demonstrates it.

Older fans abandoning the show are of zero concern to them, because they've done nothing to bring them back. Older fans sticking with the show for a long time isn't a concern to them, because they do nothing to keep them there. It cannot be said enough times: the mainline Pokemon anime is not created nor marketed at older fans. Just watching the anime is more than enough to demonstrate that fact.

Pokemon Origins and Pokemon Generations were made for older fans. You can tell they were just by watching them. When you see Squirtle literally bite Charmander's neck and a Team Rocket member electrocute a Marowak to death, you know it's not meant for a younger audience. But when you watch the main anime and you see it's all cartoon violence and simplistic themes there should be no doubt who it's for.

Whether we want to admit it or not. Current strategy of completely ignoring older viewer demographic and trying to emulate what other anime are doing to attract new kids is counterproductive and ineffective in longer run.

That they have used this strategy for so long and that it continues to work quite clearly shows it's not counterproductive or ineffective.

As side effect pokemon community and viewers either cannot stand still and accept whatever rubbish is served in front of them(hence why many complain and I cannot judge them for that; especially if their arguments are valid). Or they just eventually grow apathetic, careless and ultimately indifferent about show quality and glaring issues this show suffers from.
Either way none of this is good thing reflecting how anime failed to deliver rewarding job to customers.

Or maybe there aren't just two camps of Pokemon fans. Maybe there are fans who watch the show because they find it fun, flaws and all. Maybe they just want to chill out with a show that's familiar to them. Maybe they want to watch the show because they enjoy complaining about it.

Essentially, we all have different reasons for watching show. There's no point fitting everybody into categories and assuming their wants and needs.

Answer me this: if the show isn't rewarding people for watching it, why do people still watch?
 
One doesn't have to exclude the other, but look around at the most successful franchises in the world and you'll find for a lot of them success is not synonymous with quality.

Even the examples you provided show this. Digimon faded completely post Tamers despite the popularity of the first three seasons. Fairy Tail is consistent but a very average story with static characters. Dragonball's quality took a dive in the Buu saga.

These are, of course, subjective views but an anime (excluding movies) that is both an excellent story and a commercial success is a very rare thing.

Im not denying that, but they all have one thing in common which pokemon anime lacks.
Answer is consistency .

In other words they stay true to their theme having character growth which extends to future adventures, treating story as entity which builds non itself set in same timeline, don't discourage viewers from firming attachment to characters due to having strong continuity. Have defined goals to reach and while many try to extend journey for as long as possible in order to make profit and delay end game due to commercialization and market needs. They construct storyline in such way that new content and tasks only serve as way to enrich more on its stars and quest itself.

Many may not be excellent or great, but they're at very least decent in doing these,.

Pokémon anime on other hand isn't even trying. and as side effect its losing its audience, respect among viewers and is experiencing more and more issues in attracting and keeping watchers, fans.
Sometime in order for company and some product to evolve and gain profit risk is required. As saying goes "no pain, no gain!" And if something among this things doesn't change way things are going this "circulum vitiosus" don't have bright prospect at all.

But what were talking about in here doesn't even include complete overhaul of show and its core. Far from it with people just wishing for better consistency and pokemon series actually staying faithful to its roots and message about what it is about.

You've taken the opinion from a sample of a single demographic that might be indicative of a consensus for that single demographic. So what about the other demographics? What about first-time viewers? What about younger viewers who have watched for three years? What about older viewers who still watch but who haven't been influenced by online narrative?

I'm not asking you to provide these things. But what you're doing here is taking just one consensus and trying to make it seem like it's the overall consensus. All you've done is establish a pattern of opinion within one segment of the fanbase, even though that pattern doesn't represent what that one segment actually thinks. The opinions within that single segment are diverse.

Frankly, there's confirmation bias here. You're finding other fans that share the same opinion as you and believing it's a majority opinion without considering that there are many others who don't share those views.

Im not talking about first time viewers and younger demographic. But about older ones in here who watched anime for more than one generation forming educated guess based on public viewpoint in polls, discussion threads, increase of complaints expressed through blogs and topics directed toward complain about various subjects such as: Ash never winning league, stagnating as protagonist, continuity, older characters disappearing, story being stuck in same place not moving forward etc, etc.

Not just on pokemon forums but everywhere else from social networks like tumblr, facebook, twitter, reddit to likes of youtube and such.

Sure each individual has different opinion, but they all share one thing in common and that is dissatisfaction with way Ash, adventure and pokemon anime itself is handled for past two decades. And are they wrong for wanting better quality out of show they're watching?

Or would be more keen to watch if there was present more effort and motive in character evolution, narrative progression and elements surrounding it?
Just like customers want products of higher quality?

No they're not and have every right to be disappointed because pokemon anime is characterized as show with pile of wasted potential, no connections to roots treating journey as one big adventure despite being sell as such in theory. No long lasting development and clear objective to reach.

I have no doubts that many are indifferent about this thinking "pokemon anime is fine as it is", but im more than sure that most older fans are indeed not satisfied with this at all. Both vocal and silent ones regardless of how much accepting each individual is about current situation.

Nobody has exact numbers on this so anything we say here would just be baseless assumption. What I can say, though, is that older fans are insignificant not because of numbers but because the very product itself demonstrates it.

Older fans abandoning the show are of zero concern to them, because they've done nothing to bring them back. Older fans sticking with the show for a long time isn't a concern to them, because they do nothing to keep them there. It cannot be said enough times: the mainline Pokemon anime is not created nor marketed at older fans. Just watching the anime is more than enough to demonstrate that fact.

Pokemon Origins and Pokemon Generations were made for older fans. You can tell they were just by watching them. When you see Squirtle literally bite Charmander's neck and a Team Rocket member electrocute a Marowak to death, you know it's not meant for a younger audience. But when you watch the main anime and you see it's all cartoon violence and simplistic themes there should be no doubt who it's for.

Irrelevant to discussion because that's not what i pointed out.

I still see no problem in having main pokemon anime which is oriented both toward younger and older fans as several other long running and successful franchises and shows out there are successfully doing?

That does not mean having deaths blood sheds, sex scenes, full fledged romance and all kind of other completely unnecessary content.
But having anime with stronger continuity having references to past and doing updates or inclusion of older major characters when plot and show would benefit from it.

Having on going character development with Ash and his friends storylines and journey eventually going somewhere.
In there existing new challenges and obstacles for protagonists to overcome adding more depth and dimension to relationships, someone past, their dreams and progression etc.

While still having comedy, lighthearted elements and bright themes suited both for younger and older audience.
Sure this anime is directed toward target audience(small children), but truth to be told by denying new generations of some show past, development which happened before and characters/events which molded its sole structure and main hero(Ash) your taking away from them Pokemon legacy, full picture of what this journey and storyline represented and everything which came with it.

Giving them just fragment of Ash journey and false picture of where main hero they follow in reality stands in terms of experience and development or no real plot or consistent storyline to follow since that same main hero Ash is going nowhere essentially being stuck in loop of stagnation.

If those in charge did something just on smaller scale to rectify some of biggest problems pokemon anime has, they could open path toward older viewers coming back, existing ones earning their trust and loyalty in staying with anime and its long journey. Meaning more viewers, better reputation of anime itself spread around through positive word of mouth and good reviews. Attracting other people into this show. And show itself becoming more lucrative.

So i don't think investing abit more money in this show quality and letting subordinates(writers)creativity and artistic freedom to express more of their own talent would be bad business m ove at all. But those in charge by not doing nothing to attract more viewers and focusing just on one demographic(small kids) which in modern times is satisfying with each year due to low interest less and less demands of pokemon anime in market to remain lucrative with profit covering amount of resources invested in show production.

Are being counterproductive and harmful for pokemon anime survivability and existence on long term plan.

That they have used this strategy for so long and that it continues to work quite clearly shows it's not counterproductive or ineffective.

Define effective. Fact that anime struggles to attract new generations of kids in watching it with number of viewers who abandon this show compared to number of new ones joining being a lot smaller.

Having to stray away from its original formula and what this series used to be about in desperate attempt to attract new kids by rejecting its identity and core of what story used to be about(as newer sagas started to be).

Most importantly not having any back up audience in form of loyal older fandom like One Piece, Dragon Ball, Inazuma Eleven Go or Fairy Tail managed to build to fall on in order to compensate for less kids becoming interested in it. Due to not caring and doing nothing to keep older fans interested or bring them back.

Is not what i call efficient and optimal strategy in longer run. Yes it may work on short term basis, but just like salt can cause corrosion of steel with time, so does this strategy comprised of status quo, disrespect toward past and stagnation is bound to fail. Because its not sustainable.

Hence why i emphasize on term longer run . And this approach is becoming with each year for those in charge harder and harder to sustain due to massive drop in ratings being thin shadow of their former selves. Big lose of popularity and reputation with target demographic not having sufficient interest,.

Yet at same time this show thanks to decisions of those in charge losing its older demographic because of not doing anything to keep them around.

Or maybe there aren't just two camps of Pokemon fans. Maybe there are fans who watch the show because they find it fun, flaws and all. Maybe they just want to chill out with a show that's familiar to them. Maybe they want to watch the show because they enjoy complaining about it.

Essentially, we all have different reasons for watching show. There's no point fitting everybody into categories and assuming their wants and needs.

I never said there exist two groups of people. But fact that up rise of complaints, frustration and disappointment grows with each year more and more with people not being willing to shut up and voice out their disappointments about direction in which pokemon show is going and way story and its essence is planned out reveals how more and more of older demographic from all kind of groups is growing thinner on patience and becoming more bitter and disappointed.

Or they just eventually grow apathetic, careless and ultimately indifferent about show quality and glaring issues this show suffers from not caring for anything as long there exists action and comedy in individual episodes.

Answer me this: if the show isn't rewarding people for watching it, why do people still watch?

Aside from fans who do not care for things like continuity, character development etc viewing anime as 20 minute of entertainment and comedy not meant to be taken seriously or envisioned a compact story. Aka sitcom.

People who do complain yet still watch this show do it for various reasons such as habit, growing up with this series defining their childhood having hard time to let it go regardless of frustration due to attachment, in hopes of something changing on more substantial level wanting to see how it will all end, because they still find something entertaining about pokemon etc.

However just because there are some things which manage to entertain them, that does not equal to viewers being satisfied and content on general scale.

Because for long term viewers this anime isn't rewarding to watch at all.
Since it discourage you from investing emotionally in protagonists because they'll either be revamped/regressed(like Ash) or become replaced like old pair of socks never to be heard from or seen again with unfinished stories and wasted potential to do more out of them(Misty, May, Brock, Tracey, Cilan etc come to mind).

It makes accumulated character development made in past regions and progression of journey itself null and void, since there is never any real progress happening with adventure going on next level in adding more depth to Ash and others quests, or introduce any new scopes and objective waiting to be reached once first step is overcome(because first step has yet to be jumped over).

With fans growing tired of repetition and stagnation because show offers nothing for them on table.

Has no continuity and throwbacks to familiar plots, faces and sagas long term viewer may have grew up with giving to him/her feeling how their loyalty, invested money and dedication for pokemon anime is acknowledged and respected.

Lacking substance and credibility behind itself in any field.
 
Irrelevant to discussion because that's not what i pointed out.

It's not? You claimed that the number and influence or older fans shouldn't be underestimated and that the number of older fans leaving the show is greater than the number of new fans watching it. You then asked if older fans are as insignificant as people thought. I responded to that claim by giving my view on why they are insignificant. So how is my response irrelevant to our discussion?

Define effective. Fact that anime struggles to attract new generations of kids in watching it with number of viewers who abandon this show compared to number of new ones joining being a lot smaller.

Fact? Care to prove that fact with actual numbers?

"Effective" because it's one of the most watched shows, it seldom drops out the top ten most watched anime, it's never lost its timeslot, it's never fallen into obscurity and it has a feature movie released in theaters every year. For a show that has a considerable amount of flaws it's highly successful. As I said before, the connection between success and quality is tenuous. The decisions made for this show bring success regardless of what anyone thinks of the show.

Because for long term viewers this anime isn't rewarding to watch at all.
Since it discourage you from investing emotionally in protagonists because they'll either be revamped/regressed(like Ash) or become replaced like old pair of socks never to be heard from or seen again with unfinished stories and wasted potential to do more out of them(Misty, May, Brock, Tracey, Cilan etc come to mind).

It makes accumulated character development made in past regions and progression of journey itself null and void, since there is never any real progress happening with adventure going on next level in adding more depth to Ash and others quests, or introduce any new scopes and objective waiting to be reached once first step is overcome(because first step has yet to be jumped over).

With fans growing tired of repetition and stagnation because show offers nothing for them on table.

So why do these people still watch the show?

This is my point: you keep claiming that what they're doing in ineffective, unsustainable, and leading to the decay of the product. That the number of older fans is dwindling and the number of newer fans isn't picking up the slack. That all these things should instigate positive change in the product. But why would they bother making these changes when their actual viewer base remains intact and people still watch what they put out?

Yes, there's creator's pride and pushing yourself to make a better show. There are standards of excellence and all that nice stuff that we wish all creators aspire to. But if people keep buying the crap they sell they'll have no motivation to change their crap.

Fact is, people complain and criticse but they still watch. If they were that upset they wouldn't bother. Something about the product keeps bringing them back, and that says a lot more than a bunch of people taking to social media to vent about the show's flaws.
 
I was hoping to get this posted earlier, but I was delayed. Alas, enjoy the read. (The poll sure does hold interesting results...)

10 minutes I'm never going to get back...

Sigh.

I honestly don't know why people do this to themselves. If you've been around long enough to understand the writer's motivations (an ongoing advertisement with a rotating audience of children that eventually grow up and stop watching, which allows a lax approach to storylines and repeat ideas to appeal to the next round of children) then why bother getting frustrated at it anymore? There are other shows that build around a story with a conclusive end. This particular Pokémon anime (!) isn't one of them and as you've gathered, probably never will be. Maybe its time to start looking in other areas (The Origin, Generations, etc) for what you want because you're never get it with this one.

When a show is given a premise of Ash wanting to reach his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master, that becomes the expectations of the viewers. The premise draws people to see how this will be fulfilled or in the case of unfulfillment be provided an adequate explanation to why that happened. We watch to know what happens to Ash as he strives to achieve his dream. A "conclusive end" is to be expected out of this. The fact that it's an advertisement kids' show (where the amount of children watching gets smaller and smaller every time) is not an excuse to ignore or break that premise.

If one is going to build a show that has no ending in mind, then Pokémon does a horrific job thanks to the presence of its premise and the existence of its continuity. Instead, one can make an episodic slice of life show or some other method to ensure that you can keep something running as long as you like. Sesame Street for an example does very well at doing that.

So no, I haven't done anything to myself--the staff are fully accountable for failing the audience who follow the anime's premise of seeing Ash reach his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Especially when they hype up the Kalos League final, where there existed (and where they teased) a real possibility that the approach you have described could actually be broken, and yet in reality the writers/staff had no intention of actually making meaningful changes and we instead end up having a jobber in Alola. Hence the fierce backlash was entirely justified; even some of the animators were very disappointed at the outcome.

You're actually helping my case that the staff doesn't care for their audiences. Trying to lure in some kids to a show only to lose them after a short time is, quite frankly, stupid from a business perspective. And if the ratings and merchandise sales indicate anything, that approach is now beginning to backfire.

I will say though, what 10 year old do you know that has accomplished their dream/aspiration by that age, unless their dream was to go to the park or eat an ice cream that afternoon?
(Please no one seriously answer this...)

Denied. Have my serious answer: this kind of thing actually happens at none other than the Pokémon games. You're playing as a kid, who goes to battle and defeat every trainer that comes by, win eight badges, and become a Champion. You can even catch super powerful legendary Pokémon and put them to your control.

We could also take a look at Ash's three counterparts from Pokémon Red/Blue/Yellow, Adventures and Origins, all named Red, who actually won their respective Pokémon Championships. Or take a look at Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, where Link, as a 9 to 10-year-old boy, goes off to fight various monsters, go through hazardous dungeons, and save an entire world from an apocalyptic moon. In Digimon we witness the adventures of a bunch of spunky elementary school kids with their critter partners who all end up saving the digital world. All of these are kids who achieved great heights at a young age. No reason why they can't do the same with Ash; his (retconned) age cannot and should not be used as an excuse to stall him and prevent him from reaching his dream.

While I appreciate you're very passionate about this subject and feel let down by the show's direction, you fail to acknowledge the unique circumstances surrounding Pokemon's anime and the difficulty the writers have.

In the first place, the writers are handicapped by two things:

1) Ash, Pikachu and the TRio being iconic symbols of the entire franchise, not just the anime
2) The show needs to continue as long as games are still being produced

Hence, they have characters who must be perpetually present in a show that never ends. So how on earth do you plan development for those characters? How do you determine what those charactes will become and when? How can you create and execute an end game when you don't know when the end game will be?

The show need not be endless, that's the thing. And because the show need not be endless, we can allow the show to have an endgame; we can allow character development towards Ash fulfilling his dream. That's what the endgame is--and I'm sure the writers know that. I'm also sure the Pokémon anime we have right now can easily be replaced by another Pokémon anime that can take over as the advertizement for the games.

It's also not completely true that Ash and Team Rocket are "iconic symbols of the entire franchise". You don't see them promoting the games, cards or other forms of media other than the anime/movies. Are they faces of the anime? Sure. But so were Misty and Brock at one point, yet they got the axe. Pikachu alone is the face of the entire franchise. That is who you see in the beginning of those official Pokémon videos on YouTube, for instance. Pikachu, not the others, appeared in the 20th anniversary Super Bowl commercial. The live-action Pokémon film will be based on the Detective Pikachu game, which also stars a kid named Tim Goodman; Ash is nowhere to be seen. Pokémon can thrive without Ash and Team Rocket; the anime and other forums of media can still promote the games without them. As a matter of fact, Pokémon Origins, Generations and various manga do just that.

I'm not excusing poor writing here so much as trying to understand their position and why it isn't so easy for them to create a coherent story and progress characters in the way we want them to. They could have Ash win a league, but then what? What position does that put them in for the next series? How do you move forward from that point, knowing that in another three years there'll be another region and a ton of new Pokemon to cover? Again, without knowing what you're working towards and by when it needs to happen, it's incredibly difficult to plan and execute a good story.

The reason why Ash loses all the time in the leagues isn't so much to present a message to the audience, but because it's an easy way out. It's much easier on the writers to have Ash lose and start again in a new region than to have him win and justify why he wants to visit a new region and do that badge quest. I don't always like how it happens, but I understand the reason why.

You're working towards the protagonist Ash on becoming a Pokémon Master; so why not do something about that?

There are plenty of ways where your questions can be answered without having the mess the Pokémon anime is in right now; it is very possible to "plan and execute a good story" since there does exist a premise where they can work towards. DracoMan just described one way. PkmnTrainerX mentioned another way. クリスタル proposed yet another way.

There are tons of ways how they can have Ash win and continue his quest. There are tons of ways where you can remove him and then show a new region with a new protagonist (rumor has it that Dawn was supposed to be the protagonist in Sinnoh for instance). Pokémon certainly has the potential to become more than it already is right now. You on the other hand only seem to be justifying what is clearly a cop out from the writers.

Also consider that, with this formula, it's more beneficial to appeal to new children and make it easy for them to watch to show than it is to appeal to long-term, 20-something year old watchers. If you're new to Pokemon, tuning in to Pokemon Sun and Moon for the first time, you'd feel very overwhelmed if they made a ton of references to Ash's past adventures and made the past 900 episodes required viewing to understand what's going on. It's just not practical.

So while I think the writers can be criticised for certain things - the fact their show has become less entertaining as the years have gone by, for example - failing to fulfill the show's premise and progressing Ash to his ultimate goal isn't one of them. What long-term, older viewers like ourselves need to do is temper our expectations of the show, to go into it knowing we're not going to see Ash become a Pokemon Master. The show will be much more enjoyable to us that way.

If the anime staff wanted to make it easy for new children to watch the Pokémon anime then they should stop it with the continuity and/or replace Ash with someone else. That's how other shows like Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh and Aikatsu do it. Keeping Ash and making lose at every tournament is not how you do it and they should've gotten rid of him a long time ago. As a matter of fact they had a big chance to do that in XYZ and yet they blew it and instead we have a jobber in Alola whom the writers have no respect for. Perhaps the status quo is the reason why the "show has become less entertaining as the years have gone by"--because Ash's endless loop of constant failure is IMO very boring.
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Since the Pokémon anime's premise exists, then "failing to fulfill [it] and progressing Ash to his ultimate goal" is a valid criticism of it. I have no reason to watch let alone enjoy a show that will not fulfill its premise because whatever does happen in it will mean absolutely nothing in the end--which is what I mentioned in my opening post.

To give an example, let's bring up one of Ash's Pokémon, Greninja. Ash caught him while he was but a Froakie, and the two soon enough became a strong team together. While as a Frogadier it was prophesied by Olympia that the two would reach heights they were never reached before. The bond they would reach became so strong that Greninja would have a special transformation which made him even stronger. This tranformation, called Ash-Greninja, was something more special than Mega Evolution--the bond was so strong that Ash would share whatever pain Greninja received while battling. It wasn't without problems however; at times the transformation wouldn't work, at other times the power became so powerful that Ash would faint in the middle of a battle as he could not handle it. These resulted in losing several battles, but thankfully and with the help from Serena's words Ash and Greninja were able to master the transformation. They proceeded to win the last badge, play a crucial role in saving Kalos from Team Flare, and make it to the finals of the Kalos League (which they would've outright won had it not been for the writers' shenanigans).

But what now? That bond is gone. Gee oh en eee, GONE. Despite how powerful the bond was and the accomplishments Greninja did as a result, in the end they did absolutely nothing to help Ash in his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Because Greninja has now been written out of the anime and Ash is stuck as a schoolboy in Alola. All that work for nothing. So much for the investment; what a waste!

I fully agree with this. I used to get annoyed and posts rants like the OP's as well, but then I realised I wasn't part of the show's target audience and that it's never going to cater to my needs. Watching the show knowing this made it a much more enjoyable experience for me.

And you do it in spite of what the premise actually says. If you're fine being gratified with Ash and friends helping CotD x by blasting off Team Rocket for the 781st time then good for you, I can't stop you. But at the same you need to accept why people who faithfully followed the premise are very disappointed in the anime. Following the premise is how I watched it as a kid and that hasn't changed nearly 20 years later. But instead I only see you and plenty of others here justifying why a show is so poorly-written. I say it's time to acknowledge that Pokémon has a fundamental, story-breaking flaw that makes it the way it is, but that at the same time you're fine with that and understand why many others are not.

I agree. I can understand why people would be annoyed/frustrated with Ash losing and not becoming a Pokemon Master, but at the same time, it is clearly part of how the writers handle the series. The show's first priority has always been to promote the newest games to children. Everything else is secondary by comparison. Not to mention their hands are probably tied when it comes to Ash and Pikachu given that they have to keep them around for marketing purposes. I think people just expect Ash's journey to have a beginning, middle and conclusive end. That's not going to be the case and that really shouldn't be news. The show has been going on for nearly twenty years for goodness shake. We all know that the target audience has always been at children, not the people who have watched from the start or anyone probably older than twelve, so our opinions aren't really going to factor into the show all that much. While I can understand the frustration, it just seems to unnecessary to me because we know how the anime functions. That doesn't mean that the show can't be criticized, but stuff like complaining about how Ash hasn't grown because he hasn't won a League isn't one of them. In terms of problems, Ash being stuck as the main lead is still no where near my list, so the melodramatic second option on this poll is just strange to me.

This is just how the anime functions for better or for worse. If it is a huge problem for you, then it's going to make watching and enjoying the show more difficult. I just go into it for fun Pokemon adventures, good battles and likable characters. There is still character development within the series, particularly for Ash's friends, but if you want to see Ash accomplish his dreams within the near future, then that's going to be an issue.

I wouldn't say that Generations would offer much in regards to storylines and characters. I still think it was overall pretty awful, but Origins would probably work a bit better in that regard, despite being fairly rushed itself. Pokemon Adventures/Special would also probably be worth checking out. While I do think fans tend to overhype it, particularly claiming that it's so much darker than the anime when it really isn't, that would probably appeal to a lot of fans who aren't enjoying the anime.

Again, I only see justification and not any actual refutation of my points. You are correct that "Ash losing and not becoming a Pokémon Master . . . is clearly part of how the writers handle the series"; I argue however that that's not okay from a writing perspective. I'll say it again: The premise of the anime is to see Ash become a Pokémon Master. It's right there. With that in mind having a beginning, a middle and a conclusive end becomes the expectation. Ash starts a journey where he dreams of becoming a Pokémon Master, the journey itself, and Ash finally reaching his dream of becoming a Pokémon. The Pokémon anime certainly feels designed that way (with lines like "as the journey continues" with a "To Be Continued" notice at the end of every episode), but with the fundamental flaw being that the conclusive end is placed at infinity. That's why people are frustrated--they're given a premise, and yet the writers perform stupid decisions to keep the show running instead. I think we're the ones who's watching it for the "correct" reasons while you are not. And no, writing the show for children or to advertise the games cannot and should not be an excuse to fail to fulfill the premise--I reckon that many of those kids will grow up to be frustrated with the show as well, for they would realize that the anime staff never really cared for them when they were the target audience.

Ash being stuck as a main lead without having any growth and having no victories in any league is a valid criticism as long as the premise exists. Especially when a possible league victory at Kalos was teased and hyped up when in reality the no plans to actually have Ash get over the hump and make an enormous change to the show.

Pokémon Adventures succeeds where the anime has not because constantly we see the heroes actually accomplishing what they're set out to do (at least based on what I've read) and not be stuck at an endless loop like Ash has been in. Pokémon Origins also does this where the protagonist fulfills the premise, albeit it wasn't without its flaws (cramming everything into four episodes wasn't the best route to take).

No progress? Then what is this?

Kanto: Top 16
Johto: Top 8
Hoenn: Top 8 (defeated by the champion)
Sinnoh: Top 4
Kalos: Runner-Up

No progress, because it hasn't done anything to prevent the loop of Ash starting every new region with only Pikachu from continuing. Ash's "progress" is tantamount to something like this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrnaHS1DFL4


Why do people want to see newbie trainers to accomplish their goals in their first try? Is it really satisfactory to see Serena to beat Aria despite she's still a novice at this point?

To be honest I wouldn't mind Serena winning the title of Kalos Queen. I'd be really happy about it as a matter of fact. It'd make a nice Cinderella story especially after seeing what happened with her first showcase. It's certainly better than what we have right now: being stuck for all eternity in Hoenn (if she even gets there). You tell me: you think Serena is ever going to become Kalos Queen now that she's been written out? Is she just never going to appear again? If that ends up being the case, how on earth is that a good ending? How is that good? You tell me.

OK, just let me summarize the arguments and counterarguments established in here:

Pokemon Anime story is bad because Ash is not progressing toward his dream, he is going in endless circle.
But the writers can’t end his story. They need to make him going in circle such that they can continue advertise new generation of games.
If advertising the game was the purpose of the anime, they should have replaced Ash as they enter new generation.
But Ash (and TRio) had become the icon of Pokemon Anime, they can’t replace him.
If you can’t replace him, then at least write a better story such that he (and his companions) had a more meaningful adventure, what he does now will contribute to his latter performance.
But he can’t progress, because progression means stepping towards ending. To prevent progression, he can only do the same things again and again.
Do you really think audience will have the patience to continue watching the same thing again and again? Eventually they will bored out and leave.
Yeah, that’s why his traveling companions are replaced every series, to keep it look fresh.
Is that what you call “fresh”? That is just old wine in new bottle, at the end of the day it is still Ash’s adventure going in circle.
It doesn’t matter, as long as the new set of kids coming in every now and then attracted to the show. Pokemon is a kiddie anime aimed at them.
If new set of kids coming in every now and then, shouldn’t it means any past history doesn’t matter to them? Why put in so many past reference and continuity to “confuse” the new audience? Why still insist in using Ash Ketchum as the protagonist if past doesn’t matter?
It is there to hold back the leaving of old fans.
Oh, so now you acknowledge Pokemon Anime has audience of higher ages? Then you should understand old fans wanted to see Ash achieve something big so badly. He is going in circle for already 20 years.
I said it, Ash cannot progress, or else the show will end. He also cannot age, or else the audience will become unable to related to him.
Huh? How can we related ourselves to an ageless 10-year-old that in one saga he is arrogant in another saga he is competent and another saga he is idiot and another he is the chosen savior? We the audience are never as inconsistent as Ash Ketchum.
Don’t treat the entire Pokemon Anime as one big journey. Each region is a self-contained adventure.
If each region is a self-contained adventure, why do we even need continuity? Either replace Ash, or reboot the character of Ash.
Neither. Ash cannot be replaced because he is the icon, the writer can’t reboot his character either because audience are attracted to this 10-year-old trainer from Kanto Pallet aiming to become Pokemon Master.
When each saga is a self-contained adventure without cross-saga continuity, who would care is the protagonist Ash Ketchum or Red or Ethan or Brenden or Lucas or Hilbert or Calem or my fanfic OC?
......

Up to this point, I would cease to continue, because arguments and counterarguments starting to go in loop.

All I see here is the status quo defender getting owned.

I really don't think winning a league will make Ash a Pokemon Master, he'd probably get curbstomped being allowed to fight the E4 anyway.

That's flat out untrue, Ash would not get curbstomped at all. As a matter of fact, he gave Pokémon Champion Diantha of all characters a run for her money when the two characters battled. He's shown to be very capable of taking on strong trainers:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj5uoAo10js


Also you're using the term jobber wrong. A jobber is someone who loses EVERY fight. Ash has gotten to the semi finals multiple times... no jobber would get that far. Hell a jobber wouldn't even get a single badge.

You get the point--Despite Ash's past accomplishments I still call him a jobber because he's stuck in an endless loop who hasn't achieved his dream. In terms of storytelling and progression that's as good as the trainer that loses every battle.

@Shadao
You said:
There's a reason why that kiss became an iconic scene in the history of the Pokémon anime.

yaaaawn..... that was a very iconic 5 seconds. Additionally, that is a slightly subjective statement to make, given that Sun and Moon has just started and everybody has already forgotten about Serena.

Also Sun and Moon has the potential, just like XY, to bring a lot of new things to the table
It has brought many things that are poor(terrible animation, weakly choreographed battles,etc.) but it also has the potential to give:

A chance for Ash to become the first League Champion!
Z-crystals which will give a chance for every Pokemon in his team to shine
A cool rival who is technically not mean(Gladion).
Ash can use ride pagers..
and so on...

I would just like to see you be a bit impartial when regarding XY.

It may sure have potential, but after XYZ's bad ending I have no faith in the writers will enact any permanent change in the series. That's my issue with XYZ and the anime as a whole--Ash remains stuck in the position of beginning a new adventure with only Pikachu at the beginning and end of every saga. "New things to the table" didn't actually do anything to prevent that, and Serena and her kiss was no exception--what makes you think SM will be different this time?

Also, people didn't forget Serena--the kiss scene has an insane amount of views, and a petition exists in trying to get her back in the anime. She was also ranked 18th in a Top 20 Short-Haired Anime Girls poll, which included many all-time icons and fan favorites:
New Japanese Poll Ranks Short-Haired Anime Girls

You might not like her, but the fact is she's more popular than what you and the SM viewers think.

Who knows, it may be too early to tell, but I will stay skeptical as comedy seems to have overtaken the premise as the main focus. In the long run SM looks completely skippable, but I hope I'm wrong. If Pikachu comes out of Alola being able to do a Z-move and it continues to the next region then that alone will cause Ash to have done more in SM alone than in all of the previous sagas before it, including XYZ, as Ash gets a Z-crystal out of it.

As long as the status quo continues however I have no reason to invest in the anime, especially Ash's companions because they're only going to get written out very shortly from now.



And finally, time for me to deal with this last one:

OP, I feel you and I enjoy the anime for fundamentally different reasons; you seem to enjoy it if it leads to the means you desire, I enjoy it for the rich array of experiences it brings to our protagonist. I noticed that the piece of dialogue that you felt "meant something" to you, that the writers were considerate of the premise:



later contradicts your ending note...

(emphasis added, mine)

Ash Ketchum - and the writers - don't agree with you. Of course, it's a cashcow anime which seems to enjoy using its protagonist as a mascot to continue the brand appearance so having a purposefully vague goal that will not be achieved quickly is rather beneficial.

I beg to differ. The problem is that the whole scene end up being pointless because it did nothing to prevent from Ash getting out of his loop of losing leagues and running around in circles. Having Ash constantly lose just so he could be kept is not how you work with the premise. As the status quo continues, no one is going to need to know about that scene, and those who do remember that scene will come to see that even though Ash was indeed working very hard that saga, he still has not won a league (thanks to writers' BS), and still has not become a Pokémon Master. As long as the status quo remains in play, that will never happen and as a result the whole scene became pointless, and the entire Kalos saga for that matter.

However to be much less cynical about it, you acknowledge that the term is so vague that it's unsure as to what its exact requirements are - naturally, winning a league might be one of the prerequisites but so might so many other concepts: catching all the Pokemon, developing a sense of bonding and trust with all Pokemon he encounters, befriending legendaries, yielding supernatural power in connection to Pokemon, understanding all there is to Pokemon, even - understanding different career paths (I always find people consider what it means to be the Pokemon Master in a rather trainer-centric way; I know the anime alludes to it like this, but I think such an omnipotent goal probably encompasses more career types than just trainer).

I do somewhat agree with your points here. Yes, I understand the importance of some of the points you have mentioned. I do believe that stuff like "developing a sense of bonding and trust with all Pokemon he encounters" and the like are indeed important in his journey. However, the fundamental difference between the two of us is that you think they are different and perhaps unrelated set of requirements for Ash to achieve his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master, while I on the other hand believe that they all go back to Ash's goal of winning a Pokémon League. This includes stuff like the fishing competition and the Pokévision videos, along with helping random CotD's, supporting the goals of his companions, stopping terrorist organizations and even the stuff that happens in filler episodes. They are all appendages to his main goal of winning the Pokémon League and eventually his ultimate goal of becoming a Pokémon Master.

And I believe that is indeed the case, as supported by the dialogue between Ash and Serena, where Ash says "everything in our journey will lead up to victory at the Kalos League". You yourself admit that when you say "I know the anime alludes to it like this". And I'm sure it does. We see in every saga Ash goes to a new region with the intention of obtaining its badges and winning the league there. We see him working so hard to win badges so that he can enter the Pokémon League. We see him try his very hardest to win the Pokémon League there despite whatever hogwash the writers may pull on him. Clearly, at least to Ash, becoming a Pokémon Master has to do mainly with training and winning battles. It's no surprise then that we would have no hesitation to participate in a Pokémon battle! And I thought he really did work hard. And so did Serena!

I believe the narrative supports my position, not yours.

I feel that you are dismissive of the multi-dimensional properties of being a Pokemon Master and that Ash's experiences, as said by the boy himself, are not pointless. Losing a league is not pointless to becoming Pokemon Master; it gives Ash a new experience that he can utilise in the future - you might argue "he doesn't seem to do that!" but progress isn't linear and I like that the anime captures that hard note of realism. You will have set backs but does not mean your set backs are pointless. They add to the experience. Will Ash ever become a Pokemon Master? Who knows. Is his dream still alive, is he still as curious and eager as ever to try and achieve it? I think he is, and I think that's what matters.

Not everyone achieves their goals, OP but it doesn't render their attempts useless. The premise says "he dreams of becoming a Pokemon Master" - and guess what? He still does. He never gives up, no matter what - he smilingly faces the next day, I have to say - that might make you feel pessimistic, but I wish I could be like that.

The problem is, as long as the status quo continues to exist, then yes, those experiences do become pointless. It means Ash will never reach his goal, thus doomed to failure in the many years to come. The point of having a goal or a dream is to achieve it. And though some people deny this, the destination really does matter. I also find it difficult on how "the anime captures the hard note realism" since they had the nerve to retcon Ash's age back in Best Wishes, and how he continuously smiles like a good boy as he optimistically goes forward in spite of all the setbacks and league losses he's had over the times. I'm sorry, but that just does not feel realistic to me. You figure that after all those losses he maybe could one day just sit back, relax and think for a minute about what he's really doing and what he can do to change. Something that can help him bring himself out of the cycle he's in right now.

It's why Ash losing the Kalos League Final and the subsequent trophy ceremony was such a spectacular failure from the writers. They hyped up what seemed to be a very real possibility that Ash could win a league after 20 years worth of episodes, yet instead thanks to their dimwitted nonsense he ends up losing the match despite having a type advantage and a special transformation. And that is followed the horrific ceremony where he's smiling like how you describe it despite losing the biggest match of his life. Not even a jiffy of shock or disappointment. That isn't realistic to me. Worse, we now now that we know the writers had no intention of ending the status quo. Again, I truly feel that that was the worst moment in all of Pokémon.

I feel that Ash's concept of nothing being pointless to his goal - and the anime's different approaches to his journey and goal every season, even though sometimes, yes, it does feel like continuity can be disregarded - makes it fascinating to watch for these experiences alone and the many fluid, creative approaches to the eternal question that will bother us all: what does it mean to be a Pokemon Master, anyways?

Well, based on what I've seen and brought forth I do think that at least for Ash, becoming a Pokémon Master indeed has to do with battling, since that is what he does. The fact that in all six regions he works hard to get badges to qualify for the Pokémon League, and then enters those for the purpose of winning them, plus the Ash-Serena dialogue I mentioned in my opening post, suggests that winning a league is at least a requirement for Ash to achieve his ultimate dream.

"The anime's different approaches to his journey and goal every season" will not mean squat as long as the status quo remains in full force, for Ash will never reach his goal this way. It also renders the existence of all other characters (except the Permanent 5) meaningless as they'll only get written out by the end of the saga. For that I have no reason to ever invest in them. Be honest here: do you really think Ash is going to become a Pokémon Master or even make a step towards it seeing how SM is like right now?

I'll admit that you've put up a better defense than the other users who go at great lengths to try to justify the status quo and the lack of Ash's progress. But I still wholeheartedly disagree with your viewpoint.



Now just some last words, particularly to the status quo defenders and those who liked their posts:

Look, I get that you guys enjoy the gratification from whatever qualities the individual episodes each have. I understand the appeal. The charm in the games also exist to an extent in the anime. The Pokémon are lovable. The battles are always nice to look at. The characters have their appeal. And you can't complain about getting to see Lillie, Mallow and Lana in swimsuits. I get it. But at the same time you guys do need to recognize that putting a premise of Ash going on a adventure to reach his dreams of becoming a Pokémon Master, and then putting him in a cycle where he will never achieve those goals is valid criticism of the anime; a fundamental, story-breaking flaw that has defined it for all these years.

Understand why so many people disliked the Unova saga.
Understand why the Kalos League resulted in a backlash so enormous that articles were written about it and was even mentioned in Wikipedia.
Understand why so many past and present viewers are angry, disappointed and saddened at what the Pokémon anime has become.

The temporary pleasures of watching an episode of the anime to me and many of us is not worth seeing a kid be in his own little matrix where he waves and smiles and yet is stuck in an infinite loop where he never will achieve his dream, and where the characters are put in and then tossed out like a disposable diaper. Again, I have no reason to invest in any character that's only going to get written out soon from now. I heavily paid the price with Serena. Further, just like that one Reddit user said I have no reason to invest in the anime anymore.

You could try tell me that Ash is somehow not a failure by spinning and twisting things into a positive note or that I should be watching the show for some other reason than the premise. But regardless of what you tell me you cannot deny the fact that after 20 years he is still stuck in that infinite status quo cycle. And the Kalos League looked and was a grand opportunity to destroy it, with all the hype, title, narrative and previews. And they completely blew it, giving us instead a Butt Monkey Protagonist in Alola. They had no intention of actually making a permanent, lasting change in the show.

This is why I hate the Pokémon anime. I don't want to hate it, but I really do. I do not delight in failure.

What I wanted to watch was a show where the protagonist starts at the bottom and through hard work, effort, trials, hardships, experience, passion and heart makes his way to the top and becomes a champion. To actually see the goal fulfilled. That was what the premise indicated; that's what intrigued me as a young kid when I watched the Kanto saga and it was no different years later with XY(Z). In fact, that's exactly what happens in the games. I wanted a good and happy ending. An ending where promises are made, kept and realized, where the protagonists successfully achieve their biggest and greatest dreams.

Where Misty becomes a Water Pokémon Master.
Where Brock becomes a Pokémon Doctor.
Where May becomes a Master Coordinator.
Where Dawn also becomes a Master Coordinator.
Where Cilan becomes a Class S Connoisseur.
Where Iris becomes a Dragon Master.
Where Bonnie starts her own Pokémon Journey.
Where Serena becomes Kalos Queen.
And yes, where Serena wins da Ash too. 'Cause Wynaut.

And of course, where Ash truly achieves his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Hence, I feel that as a collective fandom, we, the Pokémon fans, deserve a better anime. A show with actual substance. More importantly for you guys, this is something that can be done without giving up many of those elements that cause you guys to like the anime right now. It can be done while still bringing in new audiences and at the same time retaining the ones the anime already has. It can be done while still advertizing the main games. In fact, I believe Pokémon Adventures does an amazing job at being a solid story while targeting kids and promoting the games at the same time. I truly hope one day the writers and the rest of the anime staff can have the heart and give Ash the victory he deserves. I will cry in joy if that happens.

I shall speak to several of you through PM in due time.
 
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The show need not be endless, that's the thing. And because the show need not be endless, we can allow the show to have an endgame; we can allow character development towards Ash fulfilling his dream. That's what the endgame is--and I'm sure the writers know that. I'm also sure the Pokémon anime we have right now can easily be replaced by another Pokémon anime that can take over as the advertizement for the games.

It's also not completely true that Ash and Team Rocket are "iconic symbols of the entire franchise". You don't see them promoting the games, cards or other forms of media other than the anime/movies. Are they faces of the anime? Sure. But so were Misty and Brock at one point, yet they got the axe. Pikachu alone is the face of the entire franchise. That is who you see in the beginning of those official Pokémon videos on YouTube, for instance. Pikachu, not the others, appeared in the 20th anniversary Super Bowl commercial. The live-action Pokémon film will be based on the Detective Pikachu game, which also stars a kid named Tim Goodman; Ash is nowhere to be seen. Pokémon can thrive without Ash and Team Rocket; the anime and other forums of media can still promote the games without them. As a matter of fact, Pokémon Origins, Generations and various manga do just that.

If this anime could be easily replaced, you'd think they would have done it by now, right?

Pikachu is the mascot of the franchise. Ash and TR aren't mascots but are highly recogniseable characters for anyone with a passing knowledge of the show. They're so entrenched in the fabric of the show - which is a huge part of Pokemon's franchise, don't forget - that it's not as simple as ripping them out and starting again. Let's also be realistic: they're nearly a 1,000 episodes into a show, they're not about to stop now and start again. There may be off-shoots and spin-offs but the main Pokemon anime will continue as long as people want to watch it.

Like it or not, rightfully or wrongly, etc. they've ended up in this position that comes with constraints and must work within those constraints. For every new season the show got, it moved further and further away from something artistic - a story to be told and finished - to something purely commercial. When it's commercial, it plays by a different set of rules.

You on the other hand only seem to be justifying what is clearly a cop out from the writers.

I wasn't justifying anything. I was merely explaining their position.

You and many others underestimate the importance of having an ending for a story. They could come up with any number of ways to continue their story but at what point do you stop developing and progress things towards a climax? You only know that if you know when the ending will be and how it will end.

We all come up with these ideas but they all face this issue. Great, let's have Ash win a league and put him in the Champions League. After that, he becomes a mentor for someone. After that, he's doing whatever. And it goes on and on until somebody says stop. What you have, in the end, is something just as circuitous as what we already have, only with the added pressure of having to come up with new things every time. The current writing staff have neither the competence nor the will to do that. What I tried to explain was how their current method, whether you believe it's a cop out or not, makes their job easier.

Imagine you've been asked to construct a tower. You're not told how big the tower will be or how much material you'll need to build it. You've just been told to keep building and building. How do you go about building that tower?

Then imagine the same situation, but you know the tower has to be 10 feet tall and know how much it'll take to build it.

Pokemon is working within that first scenario; several other shows people keep bringing up work within the second. Which do you think is the easiest environment to work in?

Since the Pokémon anime's premise exists, then "failing to fulfill [it] and progressing Ash to his ultimate goal" is a valid criticism of it. I have no reason to watch let alone enjoy a show that will not fulfill its premise because whatever does happen in it will mean absolutely nothing in the end--which is what I mentioned in my opening post.

They don't give you a reason to watch because they don't care about you or any other long-term viewer of the show. They don't care because they never made the show with the intention that people would follow the thing for almost 20 years. They made it for people to watch for three or four years then move on when it shifts focus back to a newer audience.

And you do it in spite of what the premise actually says. If you're fine being gratified with Ash and friends helping CotD x by blasting off Team Rocket for the 781st time then good for you, I can't stop you. But at the same you need to accept why people who faithfully followed the premise are very disappointed in the anime. Following the premise is how I watched it as a kid and that hasn't changed nearly 20 years later. But instead I only see you and plenty of others here justifying why a show is so poorly-written. I say it's time to acknowledge that Pokémon has a fundamental, story-breaking flaw that makes it the way it is, but that at the same time you're fine with that and understand why many others are not.

I say it's time you and many others understand that you chose to follow a show that's a) poorly written and b) not going to reward you the way you want it to. You're reason for watching and their reason for creating are not in line with each other and haven't been for a long time.

It's as I said earlier, this show wasn't made for you, me, or anyone to watch for 20 years hoping it reaches a conclusion. That'd be absolute madness. We CHOSE to follow the show for that length of time, ignoring the signs that, actually, it might not be for us anymore and we aren't going to get what we want. Pokemon never changed and never gave us an indication it was aiming to reach some form of conclusion.

So I really, really cannot relate with your position. If I'm justifying anything, it isn't bad writing - I've said numerous times the show is poorly written - but why the show is what it is and why they decided to make it that way. That under these particular conditions a lot of the criticisms people throw at it - it fails to fulfill its premise, it fails to develop characters, etc. - aren't valid.
 
Again, I only see justification and not any actual refutation of my points. You are correct that "Ash losing and not becoming a Pokémon Master . . . is clearly part of how the writers handle the series"; I argue however that that's not okay from a writing perspective. I'll say it again: The premise of the anime is to see Ash become a Pokémon Master. It's right there. With that in mind having a beginning, a middle and a conclusive end becomes the expectation. Ash starts a journey where he dreams of becoming a Pokémon Master, the journey itself, and Ash finally reaching his dream of becoming a Pokémon. The Pokémon anime certainly feels designed that way (with lines like "as the journey continues" with a "To Be Continued" notice at the end of every episode), but with the fundamental flaw being that the conclusive end is placed at infinity. That's why people are frustrated--they're given a premise, and yet the writers perform stupid decisions to keep the show running instead. I think we're the ones who's watching it for the "correct" reasons while you are not. And no, writing the show for children or to advertise the games cannot and should not be an excuse to fail to fulfill the premise--I reckon that many of those kids will grow up to be frustrated with the show as well, for they would realize that the anime staff never really cared for them when they were the target audience.

I can understand that expectation for Kanto and possibly the whole original series, but expecting that now seems kind of ridiculous. That hasn't been the goal of the series. I wouldn't even say that the show is designed with that in mind with those lines and the "To Be Continued" at the end of every episode either. The journey does always continue because it's a never ending adventure for Ash where he meets new friends, find new Pokemon and battle against new trainers. It's not really designed to have a beginning, middle and end because they have to keep Ash around. And they've always emphasized the importance of the journey more so than the destination.

If people were really that frustrated that the show was still going on instead of ending or replacing Ash, then why is it still airing new series? Why are they close to a thousand episodes if their decisions to keep Ash around enrages that many people that much. The writers do care about appealing to the target audience, so that claim doesn't make much sense to me either. Even if that was the case, I'd say that those kids grew up not having much other problems if they were so frustrated at a show aimed at children as teenagers/adults. There are valid complaints about the show and plenty of ways it can reasonably improve, but complaining about Ash being on an endless loop seems kind of moot at this point. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't belittle my opinion by claiming that people like you are watching the show for the "correct" reasons. There is no need to act condescending towards me or anyone else. Disagreements are fine, but once people insult me, belittle my opinion or act like they're automatically in the right for a subjective topic like opinions on a show, I immediately lose any interest in talking to them in the future and any respect I could have for them.

_Dog said:
Pokémon Adventures succeeds where the anime has not because constantly we see the heroes actually accomplishing what they're set out to do (at least based on what I've read) and not be stuck at an endless loop like Ash has been in. Pokémon Origins also does this where the protagonist fulfills the premise, albeit it wasn't without its flaws (cramming everything into four episodes wasn't the best route to take).

That's because they are able to create a beginning, middle and end for every arc. They are able to change the leads around with every arc, which does give Adventures more freedom than the anime does. They have different stories, goals and leads for every arc. The anime is able to have more complete stories for Ash's friends for the same reasons since they usually only last for one series. They can't really create a beginning, middle and end for Ash if they have to keep him around every series, which they do because he and Pikachu are too iconic for the anime to be replaced at this point.
 
I can understand that expectation for Kanto and possibly the whole original series, but expecting that now seems kind of ridiculous. That hasn't been the goal of the series. I wouldn't even say that the show is designed with that in mind with those lines and the "To Be Continued" at the end of every episode either. The journey does always continue because it's a never ending adventure for Ash where he meets new friends, find new Pokemon and battle against new trainers. It's not really designed to have a beginning, middle and end because they have to keep Ash around. And they've always emphasized the importance of the journey more so than the destination.

If people were really that frustrated that the show was still going on instead of ending or replacing Ash, then why is it still airing new series? Why are they close to a thousand episodes if their decisions to keep Ash around enrages that many people that much. The writers do care about appealing to the target audience, so that claim doesn't make much sense to me either. Even if that was the case, I'd say that those kids grew up not having much other problems if they were so frustrated at a show aimed at children as teenagers/adults. There are valid complaints about the show and plenty of ways it can reasonably improve, but complaining about Ash being on an endless loop seems kind of moot at this point. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't belittle my opinion by claiming that people like you are watching the show for the "correct" reasons. There is no need to act condescending towards me or anyone else. Disagreements are fine, but once people insult me, belittle my opinion or act like they're automatically in the right for a subjective topic like opinions on a show, I immediately lose any interest in talking to them in the future and any respect I could have for them.



That's because they are able to create a beginning, middle and end for every arc. They are able to change the leads around with every arc, which does give Adventures more freedom than the anime does. They have different stories, goals and leads for every arc. The anime is able to have more complete stories for Ash's friends for the same reasons since they usually only last for one series. They can't really create a beginning, middle and end for Ash if they have to keep him around every series, which they do because he and Pikachu are too iconic for the anime to be replaced at this point.
Which may be what they should have done in the first place - replace every protagonist with the game protagonist whenever an arc is over. But they decided to stick with Ash and they dug themselves into a pit where they're never going to get out of. Eventually, either pokemon ends someday, or everyone on the anime team retires and the successors are forced to keep the show going with Ash on and on and on until they retire. Too bad there's also hints of pressure applied to the team - those tweets from the staff members were clearly expressing disappointment about Ash's loss at the Kalos League and hinting that there were outside reasons they couldn't let him win. That makes the pit bottomless.

EDIT: You know what, it just occurred to me that maybe they'll keep Ash around until the CEO of GameFreak retires. The creator of Pokemon. Tajiri Satoshi, who's the inspiration for Ash (Satoshi). When he retires, Ash might retire. Ash is supposed to be created after the CEO after all.

That actually might be a really cleverly timed farewell arc.
 
It's not? You claimed that the number and influence or older fans shouldn't be underestimated and that the number of older fans leaving the show is greater than the number of new fans watching it. You then asked if older fans are as insignificant as people thought. I responded to that claim by giving my view on why they are insignificant. So how is my response irrelevant to our discussion?

Because it circumvents real issue, root on which this whole debate started in first place. Which was how only way for this anime to restore its lost popularity, rating figures and reputation is in paying more attention to more than one demographic. Demographic outside of small kids such as older fans who grew up with this series and who if they were remembered could help fill up empty places and missing slots for pokemon anime to thrive and go forward.

Since number if newer fans is shrinking, while number if older viewers abandoning series only increasing.
Hence why underestimating and relativizing potential and profit older viewers could deliver to their once loved or still liked anime is imo unwise asking for revision of pokemon series directors and staff strategy and long term planning to create more sustainable policy on which future pokemon sagas would be made.

Fact? Care to prove that fact with actual numbers?

"Effective" because it's one of the most watched shows, it seldom drops out the top ten most watched anime, it's never lost its timeslot, it's never fallen into obscurity and it has a feature movie released in theaters every year. For a show that has a considerable amount of flaws it's highly successful. As I said before, the connection between success and quality is tenuous. The decisions made for this show bring success regardless of what anyone thinks of the show.

We obviously have completely different opinion of what means effective. Because when you see constant drop in watchers for pokemon series, TV ratings being with each generation lower and lower, popularity of pokemon series sinking to rock bottom. Complaints being only bigger and bigger as time pass on and status quo comprised of character regression, stagnation in character development, zero continuity and connection to past successes/tasks taking place.

Pokemon anime failing to keep or bring back older audience, but at same time struggles in alluring new kids in watching its content. Than yes it really does impose question of its own. How exactly this strategy really is effective?

Yes nothing changing and "playing on saga" can extent this show life for few more years serving as life support measure. Counting on ignorance of younger kids who thanks to no lasting development and no continuity get impression how SM may for all they know be very first season. Or on die hard older fans who don't care for this things as long self contained sagas on individual episode basis deliver 20/25 minute of entertainment and humor.

Ensuring that pokemon anime just has enough people interested to cover up expenses invested in its production so that company does niot lose money. Regardless of how low in its status and popularity it may have dropped over the years.

But as those kids grow up, new ones for each new saga coming in smaller and smaller numbers, for all those older viewers who want more from pokemon series than to be treated as self contained sitcom, slice of life with no substance, goals to reach and sensible storyline.

This rinse and repeat status and beating carcass of dead horse over and over again can only last so long, so many times before everything implodes in itself. Falling apart, and i don't think exaggerate in slightest when i say how this strategy which disrespects main protagonists, show history and storyline wont last forever. Far from it.

I call effective strategy where those who do production of some anime stay true to their product identity and theme following foundations on which everything began. Where they invest in their customers/viewers to remain loyal and supportive on what is made eave dropping on demands and desires circulating out there on market. Thus attracting more viewers into this show having more than one demographic of people interested in it building success on positive feedback and good quality. With end result meaning bigger profit, more consumers and higher reputation on which brand and success of franchise is built.

Regardless of all justifications why is this anime constructed the way it is i suspect how partially arrogance and laziness from those in charge are responsible for this slump in which pokemon has found itself into. Being out of touch with what is wanted and supported among consumers.

Hence why im still challenging validity of this strategy. Because in my eyes its far from most productive one when planning things in long run.

So why do these people still watch the show?

This is my point: you keep claiming that what they're doing in ineffective, unsustainable, and leading to the decay of the product. That the number of older fans is dwindling and the number of newer fans isn't picking up the slack. That all these things should instigate positive change in the product. But why would they bother making these changes when their actual viewer base remains intact and people still watch what they put out?

If viewer base remains intact there wouldn't be much less viewers and fans than this anime used to have. Pokemon anime would be more popular and with bigger reputation behind itself. Let alone new generations of kids would easily fill up places of older fans who quit, but that clearly is not the case.

Im sorry to say but those in charge definitely do not have well prepared, efficient and viable strategy which would secure this anime survivability in long run. Because this status quo, bad policy and wrongly set priorities instead of leading toward bigger profit, wider group demographic being attracted toward this series etc is gradually, but surely doing exact opposite.
Maybe they really don't know to do better, but I would say its more laziness and being deeply dug in comfort zone which is hampering this show potential to be more creative. Than anything else.

Because in last 20 years number of missed opportunities and ways to push Ash and story forward was enormous. Even if we take in account problem of there not existing endgame and template on which stairway toward conclusion could be built, there was and still is room to develop much more not just main hero but every other forgotten character from past making it feel like at very least something moved with this stagnant journey.

Fact is, people complain and criticse but they still watch. If they were that upset they wouldn't bother. Something about the product keeps bringing them back, and that says a lot more than a bunch of people taking to social media to vent about the show's flaws.

In here your doing logical mistake because someone can be both disappointed and upset with some show, product. Yet still continue to watch it or remain its consumer. Not because he/she is masochist, but because people still care.

They care about anime they grew up with forming string attachment to characters, long adventure they followed etc being hard for them to let it go. With complaints, discussions and topics where they vent out their frustration reflecting their inner thoughts. How they feel about direction in which this show is going and for all wasted and missed opportunities existing there.

They want something changed with awareness how nothing probably will only increasing their anger, frustration and sadness.
Your right, something keeps drawing them back. But is that quality if pokemon anime itself? Or is it hope and repressed desire of something changing for better whenever new series start or continues to air staying and still hoping for break of status quo?

Older viewers who are perfectly content with way pokemon anime is handled thinking nothing should be changed are in minority at this point.
 
In short Ash is a replicant and Deckhard is gonna hunt him down. Misty is obviously a replicant too and Gary Oak is a BR.

This is basically what I got from all this.

Honestly it is a show for kids that advertises the games. Expecting a lot from it does seem a little bit much
 
Which may be what they should have done in the first place - replace every protagonist with the game protagonist whenever an arc is over. But they decided to stick with Ash and they dug themselves into a pit where they're never going to get out of. Eventually, either pokemon ends someday, or everyone on the anime team retires and the successors are forced to keep the show going with Ash on and on and on until they retire. Too bad there's also hints of pressure applied to the team - those tweets from the staff members were clearly expressing disappointment about Ash's loss at the Kalos League and hinting that there were outside reasons they couldn't let him win. That makes the pit bottomless.

Yeah, that probably would have allowed the writers to have more freedom to work with and it could have worked out if they had done it with either Johto or at the latest AG, but I'm not too surprised that they didn't go in that direction. Ash was already pretty well established for the anime and Pikachu was already quite popular as the franchise's mascot, so they didn't want to risk getting rid of that combination. Plus, fans threw fits over Misty being replaced. People were upset for years about that and I remember some claims that they stopped watching the show because of Misty no longer being there. If people were that upset over Misty being replaced, who didn't even have that much focus or had much accomplishments towards her goal during her run, then the backlash for losing Ash and Pikachu could have been far worse.

Kyriaki said:
EDIT: You know what, it just occurred to me that maybe they'll keep Ash around until the CEO of GameFreak retires. The creator of Pokemon. Tajiri Satoshi, who's the inspiration for Ash (Satoshi). When he retires, Ash might retire. Ash is supposed to be created after the CEO after all.

That actually might be a really cleverly timed farewell arc.

I doubt that's going to happen. Just because Ash is based on Taijir Satoshi doesn't mean that he's only around because of him. As long as games are being made, the anime will exist to promote them and Ash will be the main lead. It doesn't matter who the CEO of GameFreak is. Not to mention they don't mirror Taijir Satoshi perfectly through Ash, so why would retiring change anything for Ash?
 
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