My Big Problem with the Pokémon Anime - An Essay and a Rant

[Jaye]

We obviously have completely different opinion of what means effective. Because when you see constant drop in watchers for pokemon series, TV ratings being with each generation lower and lower, popularity of pokemon series sinking to rock bottom. Complaints being only bigger and bigger as time pass on and status quo comprised of character regression, stagnation in character development, zero continuity and connection to past successes/tasks taking place.

TV ratings are lower for every show. Less people watch shows on their TV now. They watch online and at any time they want through streaming services, downloads, etc. So the decline over the years isn't solely down to Pokemon's quality. The numbers you see now are not an accurate measure of anything.

Hence I place more emphasis on position in the rankings. That allows us to compare and measure Pokemon against other shows. The ranking has dropped but Pokemon (XY at least, because that's how far I've checked back recently) has retained a spot in the top 10 for several years; it dropped out last year, but quickly recovered. That last part is key, because it suggests that without changing anything Pokemon is still capable of pulling out of any valleys it finds itself in.

I'd say "rock bottom" is a huge exaggeration. Again, check the rankings.

This is more anecdotal, but I've been on Pokemon forums for a decade now and frankly the complaints now and no bigger or prevalent than they were in 2007.

I call effective strategy where those who do production of some anime stay true to their product identity and theme following foundations on which everything began.

I genuinely do not understand this statement.

Pokemon's "foundation" is that it was an anime of an incredibly successful pair of games and capitalised on the subsequent fad. It broadcast during an era where anything with the Pokemon label was red hot. Pokemon isn't as hot anymore (although Pokemon Go has sparked something of a resurgence) but the games sell amazingly well and the anime happily piggy backs on that success. I don't see how things have changed.

Pokemon's "identity" is that it was a show about a boy traveling far and wide to catch Pokemon and become a Pokemon Master. He met new friends and rivals and there were all sorts of crazy hijinks. Pokemon now is... the same things. It's still about a boy traveling far and wide, catching Pokemon, meeting new friends and dreaming of being a Pokemon Master.

Not a great deal has changed. They haven't strayed from this path. So I really don't understand all your claims that the show has lost its identity and that it's now a shriveled up husk of what it used to be. Fundamentally it's still the same show it's always been. It's never, ever, been a show with a strong character development, arcs, story, progression towards goals - all those things you bring up in every post. All those things people bring up as problems and reasons to criticse. All those things people keep saying it should be doing.

But it's like Lyrebird said:

Honestly it is a show for kids that advertises the games. Expecting a lot from it does seem a little bit much

Why on earth should anyone expect anything more? It's never set a very high standard in terms of quality yet somehow people feel they're entitled to something better because they've been "loyal".

Because in last 20 years number of missed opportunities and ways to push Ash and story forward was enormous. Even if we take in account problem of there not existing endgame and template on which stairway toward conclusion could be built, there was and still is room to develop much more not just main hero but every other forgotten character from past making it feel like at very least something moved with this stagnant journey.

And yet the show continues and, dare I say, even succeeds in what it does.

If they can miss all those opportunities for 20 years, I think they can continue to do so. I mean, put it in perspective: for a strategy you keep calling unsustainable and ineffective, it sure has been working a long time, don't you think?

In here your doing logical mistake because someone can be both disappointed and upset with some show, product. Yet still continue to watch it or remain its consumer. Not because he/she is masochist, but because people still care.

And it's because people still care and keep watching that they get away with half the stuff they do.

Your right, something keeps drawing them back. But is that quality if pokemon anime itself? Or is it hope and repressed desire of something changing for better whenever new series start or continues to air staying and still hoping for break of status quo?

Does it matter? Either way they're going back to watch and that's all that matters.

 

[Mew2]

From what I've seen, and I use the animé TV Rankings on Anime News Network for my info, Pokémon Sun and Moon are consistently in the Top 10, where Pokémon XYZ was hit or miss for being in the Top 10, especially in the later parts of the saga. In addition, Pokémon Sun and Moon seem to have a bit more views as well, though this may just be due to it being the beginning of the series, but I haven't seen much of a drop.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

From what I've seen, and I use the animé TV Rankings on Anime News Network for my info, Pokémon Sun and Moon are consistently in the Top 10, where Pokémon XYZ was hit or miss for being in the Top 10, especially in the later parts of the saga. In addition, Pokémon Sun and Moon seem to have a bit more views as well, though this may just be due to it being the beginning of the series, but I haven't seen much of a drop.

I had a list that show the episodes that featured on anime top 10 list, and the ratings they got:

Spoiler

XY001 +
XY002 5.3
XY003 5.1
XY006 5.3
XY007 5.8
XY008 6.2
XY009 5.5
XY010 5.1
XY011 5.7
XY012 5.2
XY013 5.5
XY014 5.7
XY016 5.7
XY017 4.8
XY018 6.4
XY019 5.7
XY020 5.4
XY021 5.6
XY022 5.3
XY023 6.1
XY025 5.6
XY026 4.6
XY027 5.2
XY028 5.1
XY031 5.3
XY032 5.0
XY033 4.7
XY034 5.1
XY035 4.3
XY036 5.0
XY037 5.2
XY038 5.7
XY039 3.6
XY040 5.2
XY041 5.1
XY042 5.2
XY043 5.2
XY044 5.0
XY045 4.3
XY046 4.7
XY047 4.3
XY049 4.3
XY050 4.6
XY051 5.1
XY052 4.7
XY057 4.6
XY063 4.4
XY065 4.6
XY066 5.0
XY070 3.5
XY072 3.7
XY076 4.8
XY078 3.9
XY079 4.1
XY080 3.4
XY081 3.9
XY082 3.7
XY083 3.6
XY086 4.2
XY088 3.8
XY089 3.9
XY090 4.2
XY093 4.5
XY097 4.2
XY098 4.4
XY099 3.7
XY100 4.2
XY102 3.0
XY103 3.5
XY106 3.9
XY111 4.4
XY112 4.0
XY113 4.0
XY114 3.3
XY116 3.7
XY120 3.2
XY121 3.1
XY127 3.4
XY129 3.0
XY130 2.0
XY132 3.4
XY133 3.0
XY134 3.9
XY135 +
XY136 3.2
XY137 3.6
XY139 3.1

SS037 3.0

SM001 +
SM002 4.4
SM003 +
SM004 3.8
SM005 3.6
SM006 3.9
SM007 3.7
SM009 2.7
SM010 3.9
SM011 3.9

It's strange that ratings are constantly falling, yet it's always gets a place on top 10. I guess people no longer watch anime on tv?

 

[ScienceRules]

I was hoping to get this posted earlier, but I was delayed. Alas, enjoy the read. (The poll sure does hold interesting results...)



When a show is given a premise of Ash wanting to reach his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master, that becomes the expectations of the viewers. The premise draws people to see how this will be fulfilled or in the case of unfulfillment be provided an adequate explanation to why that happened. We watch to know what happens to Ash as he strives to achieve his dream. A "conclusive end" is to be expected out of this. The fact that it's an advertisement kids' show (where the amount of children watching gets smaller and smaller every time) is not an excuse to ignore or break that premise.

If one is going to build a show that has no ending in mind, then Pokémon does a horrific job thanks to the presence of its premise and the existence of its continuity. Instead, one can make an episodic slice of life show or some other method to ensure that you can keep something running as long as you like. Sesame Street for an example does very well at doing that.

So no, I haven't done anything to myself--the staff are fully accountable for failing the audience who follow the anime's premise of seeing Ash reach his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Especially when they hype up the Kalos League final, where there existed (and where they teased) a real possibility that the approach you have described could actually be broken, and yet in reality the writers/staff had no intention of actually making meaningful changes and we instead end up having a jobber in Alola. Hence the fierce backlash was entirely justified; even some of the animators were very disappointed at the outcome.

You're actually helping my case that the staff doesn't care for their audiences. Trying to lure in some kids to a show only to lose them after a short time is, quite frankly, stupid from a business perspective. And if the ratings and merchandise sales indicate anything, that approach is now beginning to backfire.



Denied. Have my serious answer: this kind of thing actually happens at none other than the Pokémon games. You're playing as a kid, who goes to battle and defeat every trainer that comes by, win eight badges, and become a Champion. You can even catch super powerful legendary Pokémon and put them to your control.

We could also take a look at Ash's three counterparts from Pokémon Red/Blue/Yellow, Adventures and Origins, all named Red, who actually won their respective Pokémon Championships. Or take a look at Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, where Link, as a 9 to 10-year-old boy, goes off to fight various monsters, go through hazardous dungeons, and save an entire world from an apocalyptic moon. In Digimon we witness the adventures of a bunch of spunky elementary school kids with their critter partners who all end up saving the digital world. All of these are kids who achieved great heights at a young age. No reason why they can't do the same with Ash; his (retconned) age cannot and should not be used as an excuse to stall him and prevent him from reaching his dream.



The show need not be endless, that's the thing. And because the show need not be endless, we can allow the show to have an endgame; we can allow character development towards Ash fulfilling his dream. That's what the endgame is--and I'm sure the writers know that. I'm also sure the Pokémon anime we have right now can easily be replaced by another Pokémon anime that can take over as the advertizement for the games.

It's also not completely true that Ash and Team Rocket are "iconic symbols of the entire franchise". You don't see them promoting the games, cards or other forms of media other than the anime/movies. Are they faces of the anime? Sure. But so were Misty and Brock at one point, yet they got the axe. Pikachu alone is the face of the entire franchise. That is who you see in the beginning of those official Pokémon videos on YouTube, for instance. Pikachu, not the others, appeared in the 20th anniversary Super Bowl commercial. The live-action Pokémon film will be based on the Detective Pikachu game, which also stars a kid named Tim Goodman; Ash is nowhere to be seen. Pokémon can thrive without Ash and Team Rocket; the anime and other forums of media can still promote the games without them. As a matter of fact, Pokémon Origins, Generations and various manga do just that.



You're working towards the protagonist Ash on becoming a Pokémon Master; so why not do something about that?

There are plenty of ways where your questions can be answered without having the mess the Pokémon anime is in right now; it is very possible to "plan and execute a good story" since there does exist a premise where they can work towards. DracoMan just described one way. PkmnTrainerX mentioned another way. クリスタル proposed yet another way.

There are tons of ways how they can have Ash win and continue his quest. There are tons of ways where you can remove him and then show a new region with a new protagonist (rumor has it that Dawn was supposed to be the protagonist in Sinnoh for instance). Pokémon certainly has the potential to become more than it already is right now. You on the other hand only seem to be justifying what is clearly a cop out from the writers.



If the anime staff wanted to make it easy for new children to watch the Pokémon anime then they should stop it with the continuity and/or replace Ash with someone else. That's how other shows like Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh and Aikatsu do it. Keeping Ash and making lose at every tournament is not how you do it and they should've gotten rid of him a long time ago. As a matter of fact they had a big chance to do that in XYZ and yet they blew it and instead we have a jobber in Alola whom the writers have no respect for. Perhaps the status quo is the reason why the "show has become less entertaining as the years have gone by"--because Ash's endless loop of constant failure is IMO very boring.
.
Since the Pokémon anime's premise exists, then "failing to fulfill [it] and progressing Ash to his ultimate goal" is a valid criticism of it. I have no reason to watch let alone enjoy a show that will not fulfill its premise because whatever does happen in it will mean absolutely nothing in the end--which is what I mentioned in my opening post.

To give an example, let's bring up one of Ash's Pokémon, Greninja. Ash caught him while he was but a Froakie, and the two soon enough became a strong team together. While as a Frogadier it was prophesied by Olympia that the two would reach heights they were never reached before. The bond they would reach became so strong that Greninja would have a special transformation which made him even stronger. This tranformation, called Ash-Greninja, was something more special than Mega Evolution--the bond was so strong that Ash would share whatever pain Greninja received while battling. It wasn't without problems however; at times the transformation wouldn't work, at other times the power became so powerful that Ash would faint in the middle of a battle as he could not handle it. These resulted in losing several battles, but thankfully and with the help from Serena's words Ash and Greninja were able to master the transformation. They proceeded to win the last badge, play a crucial role in saving Kalos from Team Flare, and make it to the finals of the Kalos League (which they would've outright won had it not been for the writers' shenanigans).

But what now? That bond is gone. Gee oh en eee, GONE. Despite how powerful the bond was and the accomplishments Greninja did as a result, in the end they did absolutely nothing to help Ash in his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Because Greninja has now been written out of the anime and Ash is stuck as a schoolboy in Alola. All that work for nothing. So much for the investment; what a waste!



And you do it in spite of what the premise actually says. If you're fine being gratified with Ash and friends helping CotD x by blasting off Team Rocket for the 781st time then good for you, I can't stop you. But at the same you need to accept why people who faithfully followed the premise are very disappointed in the anime. Following the premise is how I watched it as a kid and that hasn't changed nearly 20 years later. But instead I only see you and plenty of others here justifying why a show is so poorly-written. I say it's time to acknowledge that Pokémon has a fundamental, story-breaking flaw that makes it the way it is, but that at the same time you're fine with that and understand why many others are not.



Again, I only see justification and not any actual refutation of my points. You are correct that "Ash losing and not becoming a Pokémon Master . . . is clearly part of how the writers handle the series"; I argue however that that's not okay from a writing perspective. I'll say it again: The premise of the anime is to see Ash become a Pokémon Master. It's right there. With that in mind having a beginning, a middle and a conclusive end becomes the expectation. Ash starts a journey where he dreams of becoming a Pokémon Master, the journey itself, and Ash finally reaching his dream of becoming a Pokémon. The Pokémon anime certainly feels designed that way (with lines like "as the journey continues" with a "To Be Continued" notice at the end of every episode), but with the fundamental flaw being that the conclusive end is placed at infinity. That's why people are frustrated--they're given a premise, and yet the writers perform stupid decisions to keep the show running instead. I think we're the ones who's watching it for the "correct" reasons while you are not. And no, writing the show for children or to advertise the games cannot and should not be an excuse to fail to fulfill the premise--I reckon that many of those kids will grow up to be frustrated with the show as well, for they would realize that the anime staff never really cared for them when they were the target audience.

Ash being stuck as a main lead without having any growth and having no victories in any league is a valid criticism as long as the premise exists. Especially when a possible league victory at Kalos was teased and hyped up when in reality the no plans to actually have Ash get over the hump and make an enormous change to the show.

Pokémon Adventures succeeds where the anime has not because constantly we see the heroes actually accomplishing what they're set out to do (at least based on what I've read) and not be stuck at an endless loop like Ash has been in. Pokémon Origins also does this where the protagonist fulfills the premise, albeit it wasn't without its flaws (cramming everything into four episodes wasn't the best route to take).



No progress, because it hasn't done anything to prevent the loop of Ash starting every new region with only Pikachu from continuing. Ash's "progress" is tantamount to something like this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrnaHS1DFL4




To be honest I wouldn't mind Serena winning the title of Kalos Queen. I'd be really happy about it as a matter of fact. It'd make a nice Cinderella story especially after seeing what happened with her first showcase. It's certainly better than what we have right now: being stuck for all eternity in Hoenn (if she even gets there). You tell me: you think Serena is ever going to become Kalos Queen now that she's been written out? Is she just never going to appear again? If that ends up being the case, how on earth is that a good ending? How is that good? You tell me.



All I see here is the status quo defender getting owned.



That's flat out untrue, Ash would not get curbstomped at all. As a matter of fact, he gave Pokémon Champion Diantha of all characters a run for her money when the two characters battled. He's shown to be very capable of taking on strong trainers:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj5uoAo10js




You get the point--Despite Ash's past accomplishments I still call him a jobber because he's stuck in an endless loop who hasn't achieved his dream. In terms of storytelling and progression that's as good as the trainer that loses every battle.



It may sure have potential, but after XYZ's bad ending I have no faith in the writers will enact any permanent change in the series. That's my issue with XYZ and the anime as a whole--Ash remains stuck in the position of beginning a new adventure with only Pikachu at the beginning and end of every saga. "New things to the table" didn't actually do anything to prevent that, and Serena and her kiss was no exception--what makes you think SM will be different this time?

Also, people didn't forget Serena--the kiss scene has an insane amount of views, and a petition exists in trying to get her back in the anime. She was also ranked 18th in a Top 20 Short-Haired Anime Girls poll, which included many all-time icons and fan favorites:
New Japanese Poll Ranks Short-Haired Anime Girls

You might not like her, but the fact is she's more popular than what you and the SM viewers think.

Who knows, it may be too early to tell, but I will stay skeptical as comedy seems to have overtaken the premise as the main focus. In the long run SM looks completely skippable, but I hope I'm wrong. If Pikachu comes out of Alola being able to do a Z-move and it continues to the next region then that alone will cause Ash to have done more in SM alone than in all of the previous sagas before it, including XYZ, as Ash gets a Z-crystal out of it.

As long as the status quo continues however I have no reason to invest in the anime, especially Ash's companions because they're only going to get written out very shortly from now.



And finally, time for me to deal with this last one:



I beg to differ. The problem is that the whole scene end up being pointless because it did nothing to prevent from Ash getting out of his loop of losing leagues and running around in circles. Having Ash constantly lose just so he could be kept is not how you work with the premise. As the status quo continues, no one is going to need to know about that scene, and those who do remember that scene will come to see that even though Ash was indeed working very hard that saga, he still has not won a league (thanks to writers' BS), and still has not become a Pokémon Master. As long as the status quo remains in play, that will never happen and as a result the whole scene became pointless, and the entire Kalos saga for that matter.



I do somewhat agree with your points here. Yes, I understand the importance of some of the points you have mentioned. I do believe that stuff like "developing a sense of bonding and trust with all Pokemon he encounters" and the like are indeed important in his journey. However, the fundamental difference between the two of us is that you think they are different and perhaps unrelated set of requirements for Ash to achieve his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master, while I on the other hand believe that they all go back to Ash's goal of winning a Pokémon League. This includes stuff like the fishing competition and the Pokévision videos, along with helping random CotD's, supporting the goals of his companions, stopping terrorist organizations and even the stuff that happens in filler episodes. They are all appendages to his main goal of winning the Pokémon League and eventually his ultimate goal of becoming a Pokémon Master.

And I believe that is indeed the case, as supported by the dialogue between Ash and Serena, where Ash says "everything in our journey will lead up to victory at the Kalos League". You yourself admit that when you say "I know the anime alludes to it like this". And I'm sure it does. We see in every saga Ash goes to a new region with the intention of obtaining its badges and winning the league there. We see him working so hard to win badges so that he can enter the Pokémon League. We see him try his very hardest to win the Pokémon League there despite whatever hogwash the writers may pull on him. Clearly, at least to Ash, becoming a Pokémon Master has to do mainly with training and winning battles. It's no surprise then that we would have no hesitation to participate in a Pokémon battle! And I thought he really did work hard. And so did Serena!

I believe the narrative supports my position, not yours.



The problem is, as long as the status quo continues to exist, then yes, those experiences do become pointless. It means Ash will never reach his goal, thus doomed to failure in the many years to come. The point of having a goal or a dream is to achieve it. And though some people deny this, the destination really does matter. I also find it difficult on how "the anime captures the hard note realism" since they had the nerve to retcon Ash's age back in Best Wishes, and how he continuously smiles like a good boy as he optimistically goes forward in spite of all the setbacks and league losses he's had over the times. I'm sorry, but that just does not feel realistic to me. You figure that after all those losses he maybe could one day just sit back, relax and think for a minute about what he's really doing and what he can do to change. Something that can help him bring himself out of the cycle he's in right now.

It's why Ash losing the Kalos League Final and the subsequent trophy ceremony was such a spectacular failure from the writers. They hyped up what seemed to be a very real possibility that Ash could win a league after 20 years worth of episodes, yet instead thanks to their dimwitted nonsense he ends up losing the match despite having a type advantage and a special transformation. And that is followed the horrific ceremony where he's smiling like how you describe it despite losing the biggest match of his life. Not even a jiffy of shock or disappointment. That isn't realistic to me. Worse, we now now that we know the writers had no intention of ending the status quo. Again, I truly feel that that was the worst moment in all of Pokémon.



Well, based on what I've seen and brought forth I do think that at least for Ash, becoming a Pokémon Master indeed has to do with battling, since that is what he does. The fact that in all six regions he works hard to get badges to qualify for the Pokémon League, and then enters those for the purpose of winning them, plus the Ash-Serena dialogue I mentioned in my opening post, suggests that winning a league is at least a requirement for Ash to achieve his ultimate dream.

"The anime's different approaches to his journey and goal every season" will not mean squat as long as the status quo remains in full force, for Ash will never reach his goal this way. It also renders the existence of all other characters (except the Permanent 5) meaningless as they'll only get written out by the end of the saga. For that I have no reason to ever invest in them. Be honest here: do you really think Ash is going to become a Pokémon Master or even make a step towards it seeing how SM is like right now?

I'll admit that you've put up a better defense than the other users who go at great lengths to try to justify the status quo and the lack of Ash's progress. But I still wholeheartedly disagree with your viewpoint.



Now just some last words, particularly to the status quo defenders and those who liked their posts:

Look, I get that you guys enjoy the gratification from whatever qualities the individual episodes each have. I understand the appeal. The charm in the games also exist to an extent in the anime. The Pokémon are lovable. The battles are always nice to look at. The characters have their appeal. And you can't complain about getting to see Lillie, Mallow and Lana in swimsuits. I get it. But at the same time you guys do need to recognize that putting a premise of Ash going on a adventure to reach his dreams of becoming a Pokémon Master, and then putting him in a cycle where he will never achieve those goals is valid criticism of the anime; a fundamental, story-breaking flaw that has defined it for all these years.

Understand why so many people disliked the Unova saga.
Understand why the Kalos League resulted in a backlash so enormous that articles were written about it and was even mentioned in Wikipedia.
Understand why so many past and present viewers are angry, disappointed and saddened at what the Pokémon anime has become.

The temporary pleasures of watching an episode of the anime to me and many of us is not worth seeing a kid be in his own little matrix where he waves and smiles and yet is stuck in an infinite loop where he never will achieve his dream, and where the characters are put in and then tossed out like a disposable diaper. Again, I have no reason to invest in any character that's only going to get written out soon from now. I heavily paid the price with Serena. Further, just like that one Reddit user said I have no reason to invest in the anime anymore.

You could try tell me that Ash is somehow not a failure by spinning and twisting things into a positive note or that I should be watching the show for some other reason than the premise. But regardless of what you tell me you cannot deny the fact that after 20 years he is still stuck in that infinite status quo cycle. And the Kalos League looked and was a grand opportunity to destroy it, with all the hype, title, narrative and previews. And they completely blew it, giving us instead a Butt Monkey Protagonist in Alola. They had no intention of actually making a permanent, lasting change in the show.

This is why I hate the Pokémon anime. I don't want to hate it, but I really do. I do not delight in failure.

What I wanted to watch was a show where the protagonist starts at the bottom and through hard work, effort, trials, hardships, experience, passion and heart makes his way to the top and becomes a champion. To actually see the goal fulfilled. That was what the premise indicated; that's what intrigued me as a young kid when I watched the Kanto saga and it was no different years later with XY(Z). In fact, that's exactly what happens in the games. I wanted a good and happy ending. An ending where promises are made, kept and realized, where the protagonists successfully achieve their biggest and greatest dreams.

Where Misty becomes a Water Pokémon Master.
Where Brock becomes a Pokémon Doctor.
Where May becomes a Master Coordinator.
Where Dawn also becomes a Master Coordinator.
Where Cilan becomes a Class S Connoisseur.
Where Iris becomes a Dragon Master.
Where Bonnie starts her own Pokémon Journey.
Where Serena becomes Kalos Queen.
And yes, where Serena wins da Ash too. 'Cause Wynaut.

And of course, where Ash truly achieves his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Hence, I feel that as a collective fandom, we, the Pokémon fans, deserve a better anime. A show with actual substance. More importantly for you guys, this is something that can be done without giving up many of those elements that cause you guys to like the anime right now. It can be done while still bringing in new audiences and at the same time retaining the ones the anime already has. It can be done while still advertizing the main games. In fact, I believe Pokémon Adventures does an amazing job at being a solid story while targeting kids and promoting the games at the same time. I truly hope one day the writers and the rest of the anime staff can have the heart and give Ash the victory he deserves. I will cry in joy if that happens.

I shall speak to several of you through PM in due time.

That poll was taken in mid October 2015, when Serena's popularity was at its peak as XYZ had started. Also the poll is a bit...... strange to say the least.No one except die-hard fans of Serena took to the poll and cast their votes, so I doubt the veracity of that poll, even if it is on Anime News Network. I was talking about now.
I also like Serena, but I just wish Amourshippers realise that just like Anabel and countless others, Ash will just keep on moving forward. Serena simply will not stand the test of time.... no other Pokegirl has(except in their fans' eyes)!
Additionally, the show is a show for kids. Kids watch to enjoy Ash's adventures and I don't think that they really care about the concept of "being" a Pokemon master. Expecting a show to conform to what you want is not right. Instead of ranting here, though, you can send a letter to the developers. I'm probably being naive, but with the backlash in Japan, they might be open to ideas.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

TV ratings are lower for every show. Less people watch shows on their TV now. They watch online and at any time they want through streaming services, downloads, etc. So the decline over the years isn't solely down to Pokemon's quality. The numbers you see now are not an accurate measure of anything.

Hence I place more emphasis on position in the rankings. That allows us to compare and measure Pokemon against other shows. The ranking has dropped but Pokemon (XY at least, because that's how far I've checked back recently) has retained a spot in the top 10 for several years; it dropped out last year, but quickly recovered. That last part is key, because it suggests that without changing anything Pokemon is still capable of pulling out of any valleys it finds itself in.

I'd say "rock bottom" is a huge exaggeration. Again, check the rankings.

This is more anecdotal, but I've been on Pokemon forums for a decade now and frankly the complaints now and no bigger or prevalent than they were in 2007.

If were going to estimate popularity of pokemon series its international stand currently and success in other parts of world beside Japan should be accounted as well.
Because while sure you can say how pokemon games, TCG and manga to some extent are still having tremendous popularity and fan following in America, Europe, Australia etc. Especially games both among young and older generations.

What about pokemon anime itself? Its pretty much viewed as joke, epitome of bad, inconsistent writing. With negative word of mouth, lack of people interest and ever so increasing complaints only confirming that.

Same applies to Japan, because its popularity and reputation is nowhere near as it once was. And to what this can be thanked to?
Less people watching TV? Or bad writing, stagnation, no continuity and disrespectful way in which storyline, characters and loyal fans are treated being cause of that?

Ditto when talking about less people watching Tv, it impose question on its own. Why isn't pokemon on top as far as current ratings goes even in this day and age with all problems TV industry has?

Because room for improvement surely does exist but we all know how drop in popularity is one of main reasons behind that and it would be as far as im concerned narrow minded to pin everything to one sole excuse; being "TV is watched less".

Same applies to rankings in Japan, because pokemon show popularity is shadow of what it used to be. And not so long ago backlash expressed more than once from Japanese viewers themselves on sites like tweeter openly expressing disappointment about direction in which Ash and plot itself are taken only further attest to that. One of more recent ones was Ash loss yet again in regional league.
With even one of writers if im not mistaken expressing his regret and how some of them felt Kalos league was appropriate time to make more significant step forward in Ash journey.

Current strategy from producers and directors in way this anime is written and planned out is far from effective and it wont be able to last for indefinitely(its already starting to crack and leak on all sides). When all we see is constant drop in popularity, complaints only becoming bigger and bigger, revenues being lower and reputation of pokemon anime quality itself reaching bottom.

Something which wasn't case before.

I genuinely do not understand this statement.

Pokemon's "foundation" is that it was an anime of an incredibly successful pair of games and capitalised on the subsequent fad. It broadcast during an era where anything with the Pokemon label was red hot. Pokemon isn't as hot anymore (although Pokemon Go has sparked something of a resurgence) but the games sell amazingly well and the anime happily piggy backs on that success. I don't see how things have changed.

Pokemon's "identity" is that it was a show about a boy traveling far and wide to catch Pokemon and become a Pokemon Master. He met new friends and rivals and there were all sorts of crazy hijinks. Pokemon now is... the same things. It's still about a boy traveling far and wide, catching Pokemon, meeting new friends and dreaming of being a Pokemon Master.

Not a great deal has changed. They haven't strayed from this path. So I really don't understand all your claims that the show has lost its identity and that it's now a shriveled up husk of what it used to be. Fundamentally it's still the same show it's always been. It's never, ever, been a show with a strong character development, arcs, story, progression towards goals - all those things you bring up in every post. All those things people bring up as problems and reasons to criticse. All those things people keep saying it should be doing.

Except its very core did changed. Your perceiving this anime in light of standards if what new sagas delivered overlooking message and direction in which pokemon anime was supposed to go and did until some point. Being reason why I mentioned crucial word in here: foundations.

Pokémon anime was envisioned as show with one big overarching story following story of Ash and his friends. As he works toward becoming pokemon master and overcoming steps to come closer toward that dream.

Where past knowledge and impact major characters and plots left on development of Ash and journey itself mean something actually in longer run preserving their legacy. Emphasizing on importance of friendship and establishing strong bonds.

Making it feel like we have on going story adding up to itself set in same timeline and continuity.,

But constant revamps, discard of everything from past regions and repetition made it stray away from what it used to represent.Such as so called string friendships, unity and bonds created between Ash and his companions stopping to exist or mean anything in longer run due to never being maintained once main character is replaced(might as well say older characters like Misty, May, Max, Dawn, Brock, Tracey etc etc never existed in Ash life).

His friends storylines, struggles, relationships and plots being left forgotten in dust with anything writes established about them before fading in oblivion. Once they get one obligatory cameo being erased from face of existence having zero palpable continuity.

Whatever started storyline and development created and established with Ash and cast in one generation(being on way to conquer league, aura abilities, father question, all that time and effort spent in training and raising older pokemon, sending them to special training, developing new strategy as result of his friends influence etc going down the gutter). Thanks to everything established and started in previous regions being forgotten.

All of this is making things look out of place due to no background and connections to history which would give coverage on previous growth and achievements.

It doesn't even feel like pokemon show is in same timeline and universe anymore honestly.

And no amount of persuading and trying to rationalize this terrible mess of "pokemon not being supposed to be viewed as one big story" is going to convince me or anyone else otherwise.

Because if that was the case we wouldn't have Ash or TR anymore in first place. There wouldn't exist haphazard and shattered throwbacks to past once in every decade or so. Along with fact of end game, ultimate dream on which whole adventure started still existing pretending like we have show set in same universe and timeline it was in when everything started.

Despite this stopping to be reality long time ago.

And yet the show continues and, dare I say, even succeeds in what it does.

If they can miss all those opportunities for 20 years, I think they can continue to do so. I mean, put it in perspective: for a strategy you keep calling unsustainable and ineffective, it sure has been working a long time, don't you think?

I already covered this through explanation how that strategy they have been running for past two decades was just enough to keep pokemon anime alive. Not being allowed to fully recover and flourish. What they're doing is implementing stopgap measures, rather than healing root of problem itself.

Which is very, very bad strategy in planning out and writing for some show, mainly because it alienates older fans and indirectly stops more productive flux of new incomers toward anime discouraging new generations from growing attached to show and characters netting yourself loyal fandom.

Granted you could argue how repetition, restarts and burying older characters forever in past means that newer viewers won't feel out of the loop, but what about older generations which want to comeback toward anime, revive their interest and get themselves reminded of their childhood days?

By refusing to reuse/acknowledge older characters, push main protagonist forward and have continuity based story in a lot of ways, your only dismissing the loyal followers of the series,and making sure that they will abandon this show and franchise. Both from marketing and writing standpoint that's not most optimal move to maintain people interest, have them remain loyal and invest more of their time and money onto franchise.

Meaning constant decrease of pokemon watchers, less money and potential customers to buy products but spreading of bad word of mouth about pokemon as well damaging its reputation and credibility. Since disappointed viewers will only share their experiences to others resulting in potential new incomers refusing to tune into such show. Losing your target audience that way as well.

And it's because people still care and keep watching that they get away with half the stuff they do.

And for how long will that be? Complaints are only growing bigger and bigger with every person having their threshold of tolerance. Limit on for how much longer they can put up with this before they grow tired, discouraged and determined to quit this anime for good.

But here is the problem. Those empty places older fans leave behind themselves are not being filled up at same speed with younger kids at all. In fact viewers and fanbase itself is shrinking with each year more and more until next to nothing is left.

This can be already noticed when speaking about online fanbase and massive amount of people who has fond memories of pokemon, but due to being ignored and marginalized losing interest in pokemon show.

Does it matter? Either way they're going back to watch and that's all that matters.

Answered above.

 

[Jaye]

And no amount of persuading and trying to rationalize this terrible mess of "pokemon not being supposed to be viewed as one big story" is going to convince me or anyone else otherwise.

Then why are you continuing this debate?

Okay, I'm not going to convince you. However, I can point out that this

Pokémon anime was envisioned as show with one big overarching story following story of Ash and his friends. As he works toward becoming pokemon master and overcoming steps to come closer toward that dream.

was never the case. It's well documented by now that the Pokemon anime was only going to last for a year before the success of the games and the surge in popularity lead to another season and seasons beyond that. The show was envisioned to be a one time only thing, a fun little show of what Pokemon is all about before it faded. The popularity didn't fade - it was the opposite, in fact - so it continued beyond what anyone intended.

You can keep calling it an excuse, but it's undeniable that the show was NOT made to be a long-running, forever developing story of a boy becoming a Pokemon Master. It was made to be a showcase of Pokemon and everything Pokemon entails. This has not changed. It didn't change when the Johto saga started, and it still hasn't changed for Sun and Moon.

The characters are secondary to this. Always have been and always will be.

And for how long will that be? Complaints are only growing bigger and bigger with every person having their threshold of tolerance. Limit on for how much longer they can put up with this before they grow tired, discouraged and determined to quit this anime for good.

Who knows? The show is showing no signs of stopping any time soon, so I'm guessing they can keep this up for a very long time.

I mean, just look at this thread. We have people who believe the show is awful, unwatchable, not worth following and a slap in the face to their own loyalty... yet still watch the show. And you're trying to claim that they should be worried about people being turned off the show? Come off it.

Neither of us are going to budge from our positions, so I'll just end with this:

However you want to measure it, Pokemon has never been quality and has never promised to be quality. I didn't tune in every week for a good writing and character development. I knew I wasn't going to get it, so I didn't expect it. I tuned in for other things that I knew the show could and would offer me.

So it baffles me, even more so after the discussions I've had in this thread, that people still have these unreasonable expectations. That people think that just because they've watched the show for a long time, that they're entitled to a quality product. That's now how it works. You watched a show that wasn't that good and stuck with it for whatever reason. You placed false hopes and expectations on a show that wasn't capable of meeting them and now you're disappointed and venting about it. What did you think was going to happen?

For entertainment, if something is bad you switch off and go watch something else. It's pointless sticking with a show that isn't giving you what you want. You don't gain anything from it. Yeah, it could be better. But there are thousands of shows that could be better. Not every writer/director/whatever is talented enough to make better shows.

That's what I've been driving at the whole time. Pokemon is not produced by highly competent people. You've got these people working in difficult conditions and this is what we get. What we have is successful enough that there's no real motivation for them to change anything.

The only way it does is if the franchise bombs, and it hasn't. Slowly declining year on year? Absolutely. Yet viewership is still in the millions and none of its actual competition (not One Piece, DB Super or any other big Shonen year people love to bring up) is doing much better. Not everything is rosy but it's still pretty good.

 

[Iteru]

When a show is given a premise of Ash wanting to reach his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master, that becomes the expectations of the viewers. The premise draws people to see how this will be fulfilled or in the case of unfulfillment be provided an adequate explanation to why that happened. We watch to know what happens to Ash as he strives to achieve his dream. A "conclusive end" is to be expected out of this. The fact that it's an advertisement kids' show (where the amount of children watching gets smaller and smaller every time) is not an excuse to ignore or break that premise.

Pokémon Master - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

In response to an email sent to Pokémon.com's mailbag, Pokémon.com posted the following:

"I'm very sorry, but the Pokémon Company does not answer questions of this nature. It is the intent of the Pokémon creators that such questions be left to the imaginations and interpretations of Pokémon fans, adding more excitement and mystery to the Pokémon universe."

It's painfully clear they will never say what one is or how to do it. I can understand your point for younger viewers, they might get confused. But you're not an 8 year old. This saying applies:

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

So no, I haven't done anything to myself

See above.

--the staff are fully accountable for failing the audience who follow the anime's premise of seeing Ash reach his dream of becoming a Pokémon Master. Especially when they hype up the Kalos League final, where there existed (and where they teased) a real possibility that the approach you have described could actually be broken, and yet in reality the writers/staff had no intention of actually making meaningful changes and we instead end up having a jobber in Alola. Hence the fierce backlash was entirely justified; even some of the animators were very disappointed at the outcome.

Again the animators are adults so to be blunt, who cares what they think? They got paid to draw the scenes whether he won or not.

You're actually helping my case that the staff doesn't care for their audiences. Trying to lure in some kids to a show only to lose them after a short time is, quite frankly, stupid from a business perspective. And if the ratings and merchandise sales indicate anything, that approach is now beginning to backfire.

Actually, having a continual audience means that they expect bigger and better things. With a constantly changing audience they don't have to appeal to older fans with a lot more demands.

But basically the problem comes down to the fact that they don't have to change anything. People still watch the show and more importantly it gets people to buy the games. Sun and Moon are a success. As long as the games make huge amounts of money, then the animé doesn't need to change because its done its job.

Denied. Have my serious answer: this kind of thing actually happens at none other than the Pokémon games. You're playing as a kid, who goes to battle and defeat every trainer that comes by, win eight badges, and become a Champion. You can even catch super powerful legendary Pokémon and put them to your control.

Nothing tells you that you're still a 10 year old at the end of those games.

We could also take a look at Ash's three counterparts from Pokémon Red/Blue/Yellow, Adventures and Origins, all named Red, who actually won their respective Pokémon Championships. Or take a look at Zelda: Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, where Link, as a 9 to 10-year-old boy, goes off to fight various monsters, go through hazardous dungeons, and save an entire world from an apocalyptic moon. In Digimon we witness the adventures of a bunch of spunky elementary school kids with their critter partners who all end up saving the digital world. All of these are kids who achieved great heights at a young age. No reason why they can't do the same with Ash; his (retconned) age cannot and should not be used as an excuse to stall him and prevent him from reaching his dream.

Hence why I used the word "realistically".

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Then why are you continuing this debate?

To defend my very own views and opinions which got challenged in first place. Why in my eyes current strategy from those in charge is already rotten inside and is far from most productive one.
Most importantly to explain why disappointments from my side and those who feel same way is not some mindless rambling of unrealistic and extremist fans.

But expression of those who complain actually caring for this show future, wanting to have stronger reputation and that characters and story set in pokemon universe live up to their potential.

was never the case. It's well documented by now that the Pokemon anime was only going to last for a year before the success of the games and the surge in popularity lead to another season and seasons beyond that. The show was envisioned to be a one time only thing, a fun little show of what Pokemon is all about before it faded. The popularity didn't fade - it was the opposite, in fact - so it continued beyond what anyone intended.

You can keep calling it an excuse, but it's undeniable that the show was NOT made to be a long-running, forever developing story of a boy becoming a Pokemon Master. It was made to be a showcase of Pokemon and everything Pokemon entails. This has not changed. It didn't change when the Johto saga started, and it still hasn't changed for Sun and Moon.

The characters are secondary to this. Always have been and always will be.

It was made primarily as marketing tool to showcase pokemon from new games, that's true. But it also constructed adventure, lay out on which story of exploring world through eyes of 10 year old boy and his close friends as they struggle to reach their aims was supposed to gradually evolve and move forward . Even after producers decided that pokemon continues past Kanto, this anime was always presented as one big entity. One big adventure set in same universe and timeline following journey of Ash and his friends supposedly building on itself and growing forward. Emphasizing on power of friendship, unity existing between people and how honesty and hard work pays of eventually.

Otherwise viewers wouldn't be reminded over the years how Ash dream is to become pokemon master. There would be never glimpses of continuity in form of flashbacks to past Ash travels, return of older pokemon and characters, previous plots from past being brought up etc,.

There would be no TR present anymore, never ending journey of challenging gyms and attempts to win league.

Once pokemon anime started to distance itself more and more with each passing saga from this principles and message it build itself and thrived on is when popularity and reputation began to decrease more and more over time.

I said it once and ill say it again. If this anime isn't supposed to be one big story building on itself and following journey of timeless character named Ash, in that case there should be no character development, any ties to past, no plots present for specific region forming story around them etc. There should be nothing;
treating pokemon anime as comedy sitcom of 20 to 25 minutes.

Rather than story characteristic for one episode or set of them overlapping with future episodes. Giving to viewers only false impression how things like development, story construction and deconstruction of various introduced plots or subplots exist in pokemon.

When in reality in long run they don't stopping to exist at moment new region begins resetting everything to square one.

You cant treat anime both as sitcom and supposedly plot driven story meant to feed on itself and evolve over long period of time, yet treating it as such only sometime.

With such inconsistency and indecisiveness your only damaging pokemon series further losing its solid form.

Who knows? The show is showing no signs of stopping any time soon, so I'm guessing they can keep this up for a very long time.

I mean, just look at this thread. We have people who believe the show is awful, unwatchable, not worth following and a slap in the face to their own loyalty... yet still watch the show. And you're trying to claim that they should be worried about people being turned off the show? Come off it.

Maybe so. But for status and reputation of some anime negative word of mouth, bad reviews and critics. Mass amount of complaining only undermine foundations on which next generation of kids would carry pout longevity of pokemon series on their back. Since its deterring other people from joining this anime and writers, mot importantly directors are not doing much(if anything) to change that bad image about their work.

Thus attracting more of young kids toward pokemon or regain lost interest from older viewers,. Pushing this anime in deeper ands heavier swamp, until there comes a day and a time where expenses to produce this show will be bigger than incomes.

And in that case we all know what happens to any TV show.

Anime over the years decreased not just in popularity, ratings etc with many fans losing respect and satisfying feel of enjoyment out of their viewing experience. As result of all of that incomes diminished as well and in longer run if same exact approach remains, profit wont be bigger, but only lower. Basics of economy.

Neither of us are going to budge from our positions, so I'll just end with this:

Very well, consider this to be my last two cents on whole subject as well:

However you want to measure it, Pokemon has never been quality and has never promised to be quality. I didn't tune in every week for a good writing and character development. I knew I wasn't going to get it, so I didn't expect it. I tuned in for other things that I knew the show could and would offer me.

So it baffles me, even more so after the discussions I've had in this thread, that people still have these unreasonable expectations. That people think that just because they've watched the show for a long time, that they're entitled to a quality product. That's now how it works. You watched a show that wasn't that good and stuck with it for whatever reason. You placed false hopes and expectations on a show that wasn't capable of meeting them and now you're disappointed and venting about it. What did you think was going to happen?

For entertainment, if something is bad you switch off and go watch something else. It's pointless sticking with a show that isn't giving you what you want. You don't gain anything from it. Yeah, it could be better. But there are thousands of shows that could be better. Not every writer/director/whatever is talented enough to make better shows.

While some fan demands can be unrealistic and unreasonable, quite frankly what majority of those who are not content with direction in which pokemon anime went/is going is nothing to be shocked about and baffled really.
Like i covered on previous pages most people don't have some outrageous and unrealistic expectations from pokemon anime.

They simply wish that it stays true to its roots, theme on which foundations of whole pokemon adventure in first place was built. Staying consistent to its soul and core.

Wanting that those in charge changed few, but significant for this series credibility things like pushing main protagonist(Ash) forward using past experiences as fuel to explore more on his thoughts, background and career taking him on next, more challenging steps . Feeling like he is going forward changing emotionally and physically as trainer and person thanks to various past adventures, people and battles keeping progress consistent. Stopping whole character cycling where older ones and their unfinished stories are left abandoned and forgotten liker they never had any impact and place in pokemon universe or on Ash life. Same goes for older pokemon.

Getting instead build up on their stories, explore on untold interests and traits we may not been aware of and tie up loose ends giving us more substantial growth, staying consistent in characterization and way story is going to be told providing more flashbacks and links to past areas characters traveled through making journey all that more believable.

In other words continuity to make it short, feeling like this show is still one big journey set in same world.
That story itself has destination to follow instead of being victim to constant stagnation and atrocious cycle of repetition.

Not to extent of Ash aging, including mature themes, having throwbacks to past on every step or story itself having ultimate finish line revealed(since its unknown when ending will indeed occur).

BUT to simply have feeling that previous journey weren't done in vain amounting to something(treating thus past major characters with respect not erasing past from anime existence),
-to introduce for change more significant push forward for Ash himself with his struggles and viewers themselves being rewarded because of that(like winning league for once) -and get impression how no matter how small or slow that progress may be, things are moving forward, somewhere.

And this isn't too much to ask because its bare minimum of quality viewers who invest their time and money would like to get in return.

That's what I've been driving at the whole time. Pokemon is not produced by highly competent people. You've got these people working in difficult conditions and this is what we get. What we have is successful enough that there's no real motivation for them to change anything. .

Directors? Absolutely. Writers? Not as much, because pokemon series have some fairly reputable and skilled staff members proving their capabilities in other anime they got involved into. Such as Atsuhiro Tomioka (with Fairy Tail, Inazuma Eleen Go, One Piece, Yugioh 5D etc), Junki Takegami(Inuyasha, Naruto Shippuden, One Piece etc), Aya Matsoi(Dragon ball Z) etc.

In pokemon several of them proved when their talent and ideas aren't as suppressed so much how witty and innovative they can be delivering to us some genuine, great moments of character development. Unique story arcs (usually when anime exclusive plots are in question) etc. As well having competence to deliver natural and unforced continuity in flow of pokemon journey.

However those in higher positions like anime director, chief director of pokemon series, CEO's on positions of Gamefreak and Nintendo who give directives to anime staff are repressing and limiting very same nature if this show. Resulting in both frustration from those who write for anime(hence why we see from time to time some of them speaking about it in public such as head writer for OS Takeshi Shudo or one of writers on tweeter when expressing his disagreement and how he felt that Ash story should had moved on more profound level through winning league in XY).

But quality of product itself resulting in unhappy, angered and with no respect left pokemon fandom and viewers.

So in nutshell pokemon series has capacity and potential to be better, but not until root of problem is eliminated. Meaning views of those who want status quo to remain forever investing as little as possible in storyline changing, realizing how this repetitive cycle cannot go on forever.

p.s. That being said from what i see our views and beliefs in how this anime should be planned out and constructed simply aren't compatible on fundamental level. We have nothing in common as far as handling of pokemon anime goes and what would be wise to change. So our debate is indeed starting to run in cycle having no productive value behind it.

So from my part im done prolonging with this discussion with you as well since it leads nowhere.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Ash is most likely never ever to win a League even after another 20 years. The games aren't going to end anytime soon.
And the writers only care about appealing to small children because the show would still sell. If the show survived Best Wishes, it could survive anything.
Ash will forever be a loser even though he's the hero and there seems to be no intention for the writers to change that.
They should have probably made Ash realize his goal in Johto and start Hienn with a new protagonist.

Also, since Game Freak doesn't want to tell us what being a Pokémon Master is, maybe the show would end without making Ash one.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Ash is most likely never ever to win a League even after another 20 years. The games aren't going to end anytime soon.
And the writers only care about appealing to small children because the show would still sell. If the show survived Best Wishes, it could survive anything.
Ash will forever be a loser even though he's the hero and there seems to be no intention for the writers to change that.
They should have probably made Ash realize his goal in Johto and start Hienn with a new protagonist.

Also, since Game Freak doesn't want to tell us what being a Pokémon Master is, maybe the show would end without making Ash one.

So because Ash hasn't won a League based from a game related region, he's a loser? That seems kind of harsh and overlooks his accomplishments. I'm not happy with Ash losing to Alain in the Kalos League and the Kalos League arc itself was pretty disappointing for a number of reasons, but I don't think it should be ignored that he did make it to the finals for the first time. That's pretty huge, but because everyone wanted him to win, people still call him a loser. Ash's skills and progression aren't determined from whether or not he wins a League. That just feels like backwards thinking to me. Just because you don't win a competition doesn't mean that you didn't learn anything or gain anything along the way.

 

[SinnohEevee]

So because Ash hasn't won a League based from a game related region, he's a loser? That seems kind of harsh and overlooks his accomplishments. I'm not happy with Ash losing to Alain in the Kalos League and the Kalos League arc itself was pretty disappointing for a number of reasons, but I don't think it should be ignored that he did make it to the finals for the first time. That's pretty huge, but because everyone wanted him to win, people still call him a loser. Ash's skills and progression aren't determined from whether or not he wins a League. That just feels like backwards thinking to me. Just because you don't win a competition doesn't mean that you didn't learn anything or gain anything along the way.

But he needs to become a Pokémon Master, which requires him becoming a Champion.
Plus, Ash can become Champion and still travel. It's not like he even needs to travel, he could just kept challenging the Kanto League over and over.

 

[Hidden Mew]

But he needs to become a Pokémon Master, which requires him becoming a Champion.
Plus, Ash can become Champion and still travel. It's not like he even needs to travel, he could just kept challenging the Kanto League over and over.

No, that would be boring and wouldn't fit with Ash's character anyway. He loves to travel to meet new friends and Pokemon. Plus, I don't think that they've established that you can just stick around to challenge one League over and over again. Even if that was the case, Ash would rather go on new journeys to grow. He could have become a Frontier Brain at the end of AG, which was basically a stronger version of a Gym Leader, and he still turned it down. He's going to keep on traveling to new regions instead of sticking to one place. He wouldn't be able to get new Pokemon or find new challenges if he kept trying to win the Indigo League.

 

[SinnohEevee]

No, that would be boring and wouldn't fit with Ash's character anyway. He loves to travel to meet new friends and Pokemon. Plus, I don't think that they've established that you can just stick around to challenge one League over and over again. Even if that was the case, Ash would rather go on new journeys to grow. He could have become a Frontier Brain at the end of AG, which was basically a stronger version of a Gym Leader, and he still turned it down. He's going to keep on traveling to new regions instead of sticking to one place. He wouldn't be able to get new Pokemon or find new challenges if he kept trying to win the Indigo League.

Which is why I don't see how him winning a Conference or a League would end the show. Ash can become Champion and still travel.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

I think he will be the first champion of Alola league, but it will be no big deal because it's newly established.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think he will be the first champion of Alola league, but it will be no big deal because it's newly established.

I don't really understand how it wouldn't be a big deal. It would be a huge deal because Ash would be the very first Champion of the Alola region. I don't think that the League being newly established would reduce that accomplishment or honor.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I don't really understand how it wouldn't be a big deal. It would be a huge deal because Ash would be the very first Champion of the Alola region. I don't think that the League being newly established would reduce that accomplishment or honor.

Which is why it would never happen. Ash is never going to be Champion until the show ends. Which may happen in more than 20 years.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

I don't really understand how it wouldn't be a big deal.

Like Orange League and Battle Frontier.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Like Orange League and Battle Frontier.

But the Alolan League is in the games.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

But the Alolan League is in the games.

So is Battle Frontier.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Like Orange League and Battle Frontier.

The comparison doesn't make much sense to me. The Orange Islands was anime exclusive and neither that or the Battle Frontier were traditional leagues. Even if they do something different with the Alola League, it would still be a game related region League, which is basically what people wanted for ages, so it would still be a big deal if Ash somehow became the first Alola League Champion.