Mafia Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Mafia - Endgame (Looking Stupid Joker!)

[TheCapsFan]

Calling someone "weird" is clearly an attempt at shading. Maybe you want to jump off of it after I called it out, but be honest please.

I wasn't calling the guy weird, I was calling his action weird. I don't know what you're talking about with the latter.

Kaiveran - said that ey will be back with more later, but as of now, Kai is flying under the radar, giving more setup speculation than questions/reads specific to solving players. Keeping the Reiji vote up still I also do not agree with. What prevents this from being more than a slight scum lean is that the reaction to being quoted several times and coming back in here feels natural enough and not panicked. Slight scum lean.

I like the initiative of this read on Kai. I think Kai has done a good job flying under the radar this game, but posting enough and producing thought out content when ey need to, to avoid much suspicion. I would say the same can be said of Neo.

Reiji - yeah, I know it is mostly one post that I'm getting this read from, but it was one of the strongest posts of the game. Had insights on players that were not just pure rehashes that other people had already said (i.e. on Kaiveran). Coming in late is hard, and I don't get the sense that Reiji was just pushing out a long post like "oh geez, I'm going to look bad if I don't say anything." Frankly, there were easier votes to take than the one on Kai if Reiji did not want to draw attention to their self, especially when it is a vote that people may (and have) seen as OMGUS. Town lean.

I admit I don't think I fully read Reiji's read on Kai, either, but I know they voted them - I will have to go back and take a look at that. At the time I just chocked it up to OMGUS, but didn't really care because I felt it was overall a good intro post.

This is still the worst post from Caps so far, not even in how it addresses me but rather to its relation to his progression on DW, and it doesn't really follow from any post before or after

Have an example: I would have liked to ISO the entire game prior to my vote on Soulmaster, but I've spent so much damn time and energy this day defending myself from your constant attacks that I just haven't had time to do so. It feels like I'm just saying the same stuff over and over again at this point and I would like to move on. I can understand where DawningWinds, through your heavy pressure on him, would have a difficult time reading through the rest of the thread's posters and forming opinions on them. When the pressure was shifted from him to me, he was able to do so and provided a thorough reads list. It's not so much as the idea really had any influence on my thought process regarding Dawning, as when he did produce content I still found some of it iffy.

That being said, I do concede that your pressure on him did showcase his thoughts on a number of players, something that you haven't really pushed me to do at all and that I've provided separate from our dialogue. So, in hindsight, I would say that your pressure on Dawning was, overall, productive.

Especially because it completely goes against Cap's reasons for pushing me. Why would scum!DW overreact due to a push from a partner?

It was early D1, it is completely reasonable to address both of your behaviors separately from each other. I don't try to look for possible teams or solve the entire game D1, I look for stuff that pings me and I comment on it, in hopes that eliminating someone due to their scummy behavior will result in them flipping scum. I also don't really like thinking of things in black and white D1, I think it's much more productive to think of things in terms of "would elim today" vs "would not elim today" since nothing has been proven factual yet in terms of alignment.

How do you feel about Caps trying to insinuate that I am scum using an argument that would frame DW as town and was completely inaccurate to the gamestate besides?

Which reminds me, you gotta cut it with this whole "your reads must be one or the other" thing that you've been targeting me with this phase. Just because I'm calling out a single thing that you did that pinged me doesn't mean I'm scumreading you. If I was scumreading you, I'd say as such.

Alignments are the only things in this game that are in black and white. Reads are made on a spectrum and fluctuate as such. Me saying one thing that pings me about you does not a scumread make.

You can push someone even if it may not fit with potential scumbuddies. I guess I just don't find it weird because I don't actively think about if my question to one person hinges on my read of another so long as I think I've found something worth noting or asking about, if that makes sense.

Exactly!!!! Especially D1 when nobody has flipped yet.

I'm here and reading but I'm quite distracted so my thoughts might not be as expanded on as they could be, but for Kai and FA in particular I've felt like they've lacked a certain kind of conviction behind their reads, but even more notable is the fact that I feel out of all the players in the games they have engaged in the "drama" the least and have had the least amount of commentary on it.

Hm, I disagree about FA on the engagement standpoint: though she hasn't had a feud with anyone (aside from the small HD matter), I would say that she's engaged with far more people in the thread than Kai. Furthermore she's put together a list of reads that goes over most of her thoughts on a lot of the "drama," so there's that as well.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

I like the initiative of this read on Kai.

Is it really taking initiative when RJ and NP have already well established suspicion on Kai at that point?

 

[FinalArcadia]

Interesting because RJ and NP do have a fair amount of similarites, the only two players they seem to significantly disagree on are me and you oddly enough. I feel her point about scum being more likely to lay low is fair from someone who is from a community where a very high level of activity is common, scum laying low was definitely happening in our last game together. I would like if you could follow up on your last sentence though.

What I mean with the last sentence is that neopest seems to think that mafia could be sitting back watching the drama unfold, but ironically I think that's something neopest herself has done. The closest that I remember her getting to actually involving herself in the drama was at one point saying that the disagreement between you and Human wasn't really going anywhere or moving the needle on Human, which isn't a whole lot. A decent bit of her posts are mostly scum team speculation, but that's really moving ahead on things when we don't have a flip nor even a really solid consensus on even just one likely mafia member. They're more team spec than specific player reads IMO. Aside from those, I don't remember many specifics from her posts, which is why I had a mostly null read on my reads list, but that lack of standing out is, again, like the blending in that she was talking about for scum.

heading to bed now though, so I'll get back to anything else tomorrow

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Which reminds me, you gotta cut it with this whole "your reads must be one or the other" thing that you've been targeting me with this phase. Just because I'm calling out a single thing that you did that pinged me doesn't mean I'm scumreading you. If I was scumreading you, I'd say as such.

You say that it pinged you, which meant that it gave you reason to suspect that I was scum. If it didn't, what would be the point of making that post?

It was early D1, it is completely reasonable to address both of your behaviors separately from each other. I don't try to look for possible teams or solve the entire game D1, I look for stuff that pings me and I comment on it, in hopes that eliminating someone due to their scummy behavior will result in them flipping scum. I also don't really like thinking of things in black and white D1, I think it's much more productive to think of things in terms of "would elim today" vs "would not elim today" since nothing has been proven factual yet in terms of alignment.

That post had a number of factual errors too, as DW had clearly posted more content than what you insinuated. Also, since your read on me was related to DW's supposed behavior rather than my own, so our behavior was absolutely connected in your view. It's not about solving partners, it's about having a worldview, and that post didn't make sense from any perspective aside from one that skimmed a thread and tried to come up with a reason to suspect me. It's not even a bold stance, considering RJ had already established it, making this post more look like it's testing the waters. Your response to my accusations has pinged me the most out of everyone besides maybe SM's, since your posts read more like they are trying to discredit my stances rather than engage with them.

But enough with the tunneling, I did a trustfall earlier stating my strongest reason(s) to view everyone as town, and I would like you to do the same. This invitation also extends to everyone else.

 

[TheCapsFan]

Trustfalls

I Am Once Again Asking for you to explain what this means, in addition to "hedging"

A real-time votecount would be useful, since I want to know if anyone's voting Kai right now

I believe Reiji is still on Kai, but they're the only one. @Elementar @ReturnofMCH Can we get some votals please? Also, there was a question I asked you back on one of the earlier pages that you never answered regarding win conditions.

Is it really taking initiative when RJ and NP have already well established suspicion on Kai at that point?

Still haven't read Reiji's read on Kai, completely missed NP's read on Kai. I still think it's a good read, especially because overall I haven't seen too much discussion surrounding Kai, as you've pointed out as well.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

I Am Once Again Asking for you to explain what this means, in addition to "hedging"

I explained what trustfalls are in my last post (and shouldn't you be familiar with these anyway, since you played with the Syndicate gang) and hedging is refusal to commit to a stance while still talking about it (e.g. "x could be scum indicative, but it also could be town indicative, so I would like to see more from this person")

 

[Elementar]

Does the name "Arcaneum" ring a bell?

Soulmaster has presented by far the least reason to read him in general. I agree with DawningWinds on this and I do think it's odd you're pushing him so hard for presenting a completely null palate.

Where I dislike with DawningWinds is that his defensiveness does not feel towny to me.


@Elementar @ReturnofMCH Can you clarify whether or not Mafia wins at parity?

This would be a mafia win. I will post votals shortly after I catch up with the game. Sorry for the delay; I've been out.

 

[Elementar]

Votals

Spoiler: Mentions

@DawningWinds
@Kaiveran
@TheCapsFan
@leetic!
@FinalArcadia
@Reiji
@neopest
@HumanDawn
@Soulmaster
@ReturnofMCH
@Snowy

Soulmaster - 2 (FinalArcadia, TheCapsFan)
TheCapsFan - 1 (leetic!)
Reiji - 1 (DawningWinds)
Kaiveran - 1 (Reiji)
HumanDawn - 1 (neopest)

There are 22 hours left in the phase. Also, a friendly reminder to please unvote before voting for a different player.

 

[Soulmaster]

I told y'all I would show up later and I kept my word, even if we did run long today so like 2 hours later than I would have liked.
Couple of things in general. Wow activity, great to see here. Also so many acronyms with names, not used to this many.
Now for some actual content related things. There are many people posting things, but a decent numbers of posts have been halfway (or more) jokey which doesn't help a ton but still good for reading people in general. Leetic is still an interesting character but the rubbing the wrong way I mentioned in my last post has mostly gone away. Will have more general reads at the end of the post, now for my snarky comments/posts I wanted to respond to.

UNVOTE: HumanDawn
VOTE: Soulmaster

Will you pay attention to this?

No, I don't give 2 shits about pressure votes, as probably most people who have played with me can tell you. People can vote me or they can't vote me, I will reply in my own time either way. Giving me an FOS will be the same as a vote for all my response generally.

WRT P3, specifically the beef between leetic and Soul: I will say I’ve correctly read Soulmaster town despite low activity / limited information on him in an offsite game, and his play feels very similar to that case so far. AFAICT he’s not going to respond if you pressure him. He’ll engage with the game in his own way at his own pace. If he never actually picks up over the course of the Day, then I might consider voting him, but for now it’s probably best to look elsewhere.

You've commented about that game a couple times, just gonna say please don't for multiple reasons that I would talk about if it was done but it's still ongoing so we shouldn't.

honest, down to earth soulmaster

I got my eye in you... when are you going to give it back to me???

I can't give you my eye but you'll always have my heart also wtf no good kissing emote here, lame

Reiji's recent posts are really solid, I think they've got a solid vote on Kaiveran. Particularly about how Kaiveran brushed off questions of reading leetic and neopest with a lack of meta, especially when leetic had definitely posted enough at that point and neopest's posts weren't just fluff or anything either. Definitely can see the case about the Reiji vote being "easy" as well.

Caps also looks good so far, even though I don't fully agree with his thoughts on DawningWInds.

That Human is the other player besides leetic that you point out and it is just to note that he seems "normal" regardless of alignment - which doesn't really make much of a read - seems odd. This is one of the few times in games that I think Human's posts are kinda falling into the background, so what was it about his that stood out in your mind enough to mention, albeit in a vague manner?

Honestly, I was mainly reading posts and not looking at who posted what, but HD is distinct so I could remember some of his posts, while most of the other posts blended together as a more of "entire game said these things" than a "this person said X"

You were online after the start of the game but didn't post

Someone mentioned them not status checking and I agree with that sentiment. There are plenty of times that I'll have a thing open in a tab, and accidentally click it when I was going for one next to it or something and suddenly it shows you online. Just been screwed by it or have it screw me too many times to go off of it.

Soulmaster - His content is... Not that great. A quick defense, a null HD (while I do agree this is basically how HD always looks its really not much to go on since anyone who's played with HD can see that, scum or town), and a confusing read on leetic "the annoyance doesn't mean I think they're scum, have a scum lean due to trying to encourage activity.". Not sure if he actually means scum lean or meant to type town lean. It's a pretty short post which I'd probably be fine with if there were also more posts that tried to do something. He said he'd read everything two hours prior and he has explicitly told us why he's not around yet so between that and seeing better places to vote at the moment, I'm more than willing to give him a bit more time to get into the game but if he continues not really doing much in content posts this'll be something I'll inclined to push.

Yeah I meant town lean. Stupid brain and fingers working at different speeds.

You didn't; Leetic asked for a GTH read on you. I gave you a scumread, because I needed one scumread amongst the players he asked for and I didn't want to give my scumbuddy Soulmaster a scum read.

Bro did you miss the bussing memo?

Speaking of voting SM for pressure, I think it's about time I bussed my scumbuddy.

[UNVOTE]: DawningWinds
[VOTE]: Soulmaster

Oh, guess not. Good job.

Thank you and I'm glad that we've come to a somewhat understanding. Fair is fair regarding SM, I guess we'll see how that plays out for us, because it definitely seems like SM isn't going to show up!

Hey now. I know that's a fair assumption for me but I tend to hate early game and only typically reach my stride about mid game, which makes me look horrible early game but it's a cross I have to bear.

Slightly more than halfway reads from my re-read of the thread.
DawningWinds-Through their general pushback on pressure (maybe not the right words or words that have different context here but yeah) I see a town lean. Not being backed into a corner seems more towny to me and they are refusing to bend to pressure, which many scums would.

Caps-Up to #114, not much to say here. Most are small reactions to everything that has happened. Several are sarcastic posts which seem to fit my rusty memory of them. But nothing alignment indicative.
Up to the mid-#180s, still not much, more jokes, not overly liking this. A few at the end are getting better but still a slightly scumlean at this point.

FinalArcadia-I'm liking most of their posts. They generally are trying to progress the game. Posting actual thoughts and asking good lines of questions. Feel like I should have more here because they have posted more, but I wrote this earlier on and haven't gone back and added to you, sorry.

Reiji-That one post was great, but some more would be nice.
Oh hey there's more from them. Okay those posts I'm liking.
Oh, uh a bit more that I'm not a fan of but still on the towny side, though wouldn't be surprised.

Kaiveran-Really not much at all here. Has given a couple excuses so some slack but not enough. Out of all the players thus far, they definitely have the most scumlean imo.

Neopest-Crap, got to here and realized "I forgot one player" and I'm afraid that you. Will get back to you but in general slight town lean, but defintiely not heavy and will have to do a reread.

HD-Gave most of reasoning last post, and it hasn't changed. Still a neutral read because HD is dumb like that.

Leetic-Town lean here. Was way to pushy at the start imo, and still is to a bit now but now that other people are posting it doesn't seem like it as much.

I'll stick around for like half an hour if anyone wants to respond/do a thing. Otherwise I'll be passing out and see y'all tomorrow.

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Interesting. So aside from the inactives, HD still has yet to vote. Although there's no reason to townread him, I don't really like the SM wagon at the moment, nor the fact that the biggest wagon is on basically a no-show. If Kai is bad, eir partner has been reluctant to defend them (or is SM lol). I'd also like NP's reasons for still having her vote on HD.

 

[Soulmaster]

There are 22 hours left in the phase. Also, a friendly reminder to please unvote before voting for a different player.

It is now Day 1. The phase will last for 48 hours and end on Sunday 19th of December at 2pm CDT. No hyper majority is in effect.

Good luck and have fun!

Uh, which one is correct? Because those are 2 very different times.

 

[Soulmaster]

Oh also meant to do this at the end. Vote: Kaiveran as the most scummy to me at the moment.

 

[TheCapsFan]

I explained what trustfalls are in my last post (and shouldn't you be familiar with these anyway, since you played with the Syndicate gang) and hedging is refusal to commit to a stance while still talking about it (e.g. "x could be scum indicative, but it also could be town indicative, so I would like to see more from this person")

Clearly I didn't see your last post if I was responding to your post from thirty minutes beforehand. I played one game on the Syndicate five years ago. Seriously, please, just get off my ass for every little thing, man. It's ridiculous. You're worse than ME is.

But enough with the tunneling, I did a trustfall earlier stating my strongest reason(s) to view everyone as town, and I would like you to do the same. This invitation also extends to everyone else.

Thank you for your incredibly, incredibly kind explanation.

DW - Has maintained the same train of thought regarding reads even when pressured or going against the majority
Kai - Reactions feel genuine, backreads are concise and do a good job showcasing eir reads on other players
leetic - Has done a good job encouraging activity in an environment where activity is crucial to winning, a smaller game
FA - Good reads, genuine reactions, concise but detailed responses, no gaps in logic, mindmelds galore
Reiji - Strong intro, I like the responses to leetic, a couple mindmelds here and there
Neo - Has brought up valid concerns among scum sneaking by among lowposters/inactives
HD - Earlygame is strong
Soulmaster - Said exactly what I would have said to leetic if they had asked me my current thoughts on the game literally like 7 posts after the game had started

The hardest ones to do here were HD and Kai. This is probably where my vote will land tomorrow.

Seeing Soulmaster's latest posts... I like what I see for the most part, seems like a genuine effort to catch up, more than what I'm used to from them, tbh. [UNVOTE]: Soulmaster

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Leetic-Town lean here. Was way to pushy at the start imo, and still is to a bit now but now that other people are posting it doesn't seem like it as much.

What makes my pushiness different now than before?

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Clearly I didn't see your last post if I was responding to your post from thirty minutes beforehand. I played one game on the Syndicate five years ago. Seriously, please, just get off my ass for every little thing, man. It's ridiculous. You're worse than ME is.

You did play with multiple members of the Syndicate in a game I hosted, and even posted a trustfall there

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

SM's "catchup" is mostly responding to posts directed at him and repeating everybody else's reads at the end

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

It;s also worth noting that SM's reads are almost exactly the same as FA's aside from their disagreement on Caps

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

HD is in a Euro timezone so I understand why he's not active now but I want to see him keep up his effort when he returns

 

[Isaac the Investigator]

Kaiveran-Really not much at all here. Has given a couple excuses so some slack but not enough. Out of all the players thus far, they definitely have the most scumlean imo.

This reason is literally just "inactive=scummy"

 

[neopest]

I just kept my vote on HD because most other people I wanted to vote weren't around and didn't really see the use in switching to them if that was the case. It's very late where I am now so I'll respond to everything else in more detail later, but wanted to answer that before heading off to bed.