The anime and older fans

[Silktree]

I have no words for you anymore. No one is claiming that Digimon is more popular than Pokemon... It never was, which has more to do with the monsters than anything else. It doesn't help that the Digimon games are all over the place.

Hell, I'd understand it if this movie were like the Yokai Watch ones, which have been more successful than Pokemon's in the last 3 years. But that isn't the case... Movie 20 is just weird.

Of course, the real example Pokemon should follow is the Ghibli movies and their spiritual successors (Your Name). I get the feeling that most of you haven't watched them, which is a pity.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

I have no words for you anymore. No one is claiming that Digimon is more popular than Pokemon...

No, but you claimed that returning past characters is good for sales, which is obviously not the case.

Hell, I'd understand it if this movie were like the Yokai Watch ones, which have been more successful than Pokemon's in the last 3 years. But that isn't the case... Movie 20 is just weird

Thst movie was horrible. They rid of all supporting characters and only focused on the main character. Strangely familiar...

 

[Shoutmon]

The Digimon franchise, as much as I love it, is handled like shit. The las 3DS game sold flopped, the merch is overpriced, etc. Pokemon on the other hand, sells really well and still makes money from the movies and other stuff. Pokemon is doing so much better even without nostalgia shit for old anime fans.

Of course, the real example Pokemon should follow is the Ghibli movies and their spiritual successors (Your Name). I get the feeling that most of you haven't watched them, which is a pity.

Seriously?? Those movies are original content and actual movies instead of movies based on a cartoon created to sell toys, it will never be the same. Also those movies probably had a(much) bigger budget and so needed to make more money in tickets, Pokemon doesn't need that. Why don't you talk about the times Ghibli has lost money, to the point they wanted to close the studio?

 

[Silktree]

All I've been saying (if you actually read my posts rather than rushing to counter them without any thought) is that something different should be done, and a more mature storyline is obviously not the problem given Your Name's recent massive success. A good storyline is not a matter of money.

Whether or not past characters should be involved in such a storyline is debatable, I guess. My bigger issue with Movie 20 is how it considerably simplifies the original Kanto story, which if anything needed to be fleshed out.

 

[Mikuri]

I feel like we are one step away of comparing Pokémon movies to Walt Disney Animation Studios productions.

Have a look at the terrible box office performance of Pokémon the Movie: Hoopa and the Clash of Ages and now compare it to Frozen!!!

And it's a little sad that this thread has devolved into another discussion about the upcoming I Choose You! movie.

 

[Almonds]

All I've been saying (if you actually read my posts rather than rushing to counter them without any thought) is that something different should be done, and a more mature storyline is obviously not the problem given Your Name's recent massive success. A good storyline is not a matter of money.

Whether or not past characters should be involved in such a storyline is debatable, I guess. My bigger issue with Movie 20 is how it considerably simplifies the original Kanto story, which if anything needed to be fleshed out.

Yes, but as mentioned many times, that isn't for us to decide - OLM makes those decisions and like it or not, their desicions have worked and is working. Despite claims that the Pokemon anime needs changes, it is still making money just fine.

What we can do is perhaps complain with the 0.001% hope someone from OLM happens to scroll past this particular thread, reads a complaint post about Pokemon needing to appeal to older fans, and pitches the idea to the board and undergo a thorough discussion to create content that would satisfy the older fans.

And seriously? Comparing Pokemon movies with Your Name??

There are people who genuinely enjoy the pokemon movies - and there were some that had a good story to enjoy. But ultimately, the pokemon movies exist more or less to promote the games; the fact that they distribute special pokemon using movie tickets is proof. The special distributions contribute to the ticket sales - there's no questioning it. The Genesect movie sucked but that didn't stop people buying movie tickets just so they can get Shiny Genesect in theaters. Original movies like Your Name and Ghibli movies are completely different. They are created for different purposes and they attract different people.

 

[Jaye]

Well, let's keep things in perspective. It's unreasonable to expect Pokemon to match the standards of Your Name or any Ghibli film. Bringing those into the discussion isn't helping much. That said, this:

Volcanion and the Exquisite Magearna - $15,870,009
Hoopa and the Clash of Ages - $20,001,926
Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction - $26,906,022
Best Wishes Film 3 - $30,906,537
Best Wishes Film 2 - $44,057,337

is an alarming decline, by Pokemon's own standards. Just going on these numbers, something went wrong between the 2nd and 3rd BW movies and accelerated the decline. For what it's worth, I didn't contest this. My only argument was that lack of nostalgia/not being geared towards older fans wasn't the cause - or at least the only cause.

What's also interesting about this is that Yokai Watch's last two films did comfortably better than Pokemon's last two films. So I'm wondering if the decline is more down to Pokemon losing its child audience to Yokai Watch, rather than an ability to pull an older audience in.

 

[Silktree]

The Pokemon movies are released 5 months ahead of the Yokai Watch ones, so I don't see why kids wouldn't want to watch both... If they were good.

And the "Pokemon movies can't have proper storylines, nor should they!" line of thought amuses me. The first three movies certainly came close enough, despite being held back.

 

[Shadao]

Well, let's keep things in perspective. It's unreasonable to expect Pokemon to match the standards of Your Name or any Ghibli film. Bringing those into the discussion isn't helping much. That said, this:

Volcanion and the Exquisite Magearna - $15,870,009
Hoopa and the Clash of Ages - $20,001,926
Diancie and the Cocoon of Destruction - $26,906,022
Best Wishes Film 3 - $30,906,537
Best Wishes Film 2 - $44,057,337

is an alarming decline, by Pokemon's own standards. Just going on these numbers, something went wrong between the 2nd and 3rd BW movies and accelerated the decline. For what it's worth, I didn't contest this. My only argument was that lack of nostalgia/not being geared towards older fans wasn't the cause - or at least the only cause.

What's also interesting about this is that Yokai Watch's last two films did comfortably better than Pokemon's last two films. So I'm wondering if the decline is more down to Pokemon losing its child audience to Yokai Watch, rather than an ability to pull an older audience in.

If the decline occurred between Kyurem vs. the Sword of Justice and Genesect and The Legend Awakened, then I suspect a nostalgia backlash might be the culprit, considering that the director openly stated that the Mewtwo was a new Mewtwo and not the original. After all, wasn't that the original hype behind the Genesect movie?

It's also around the time that BW simply fell apart due to a combination of a bad League, rushed plot, and a filler arc that stalled for time. And as a result, repercussions were felt. As for the XY movies, we should also note that the XY series was the first series to get rid of the stock background, making the quality more movie-like than ever before, decreasing incentive to watch Pokémon on the big screen. The problem with the recent movies is that they really offer nothing that the XY series couldn't have done. No amount of mythical Pokémon or Destroy All Monster scenario could have made the movies worthwhile to watch. It's simply big budget filler episodes at best.

This is why I Choose You has been getting a lot of attention not because of promoting Ultra Beasts fighting each other, but rather to promote the story of Ash and Pikachu and Ho-Oh, which is something both young and old fans would love to see.

 

[Silktree]

I don't want to see the story of a new Ash, Pikachu and Ho-Oh. I don't know who they are, to say nothing of those weird and ugly characters around them. If I wanted a new cast for the 20th anniversary, I wouldn't want Ash involved even by name.

And you do realize that Movie 20 is eerily similar to Movie 16, right? Both started off with false hype involving nostalgia. What makes Movie 20 better, really? The cookie-cutter plot involving Ash and Marshadow looking for Ho-Oh?

Shudo is rolling in his grave. This is the second movie to mock his work.

 

[Shadao]

I don't want to see the story of a new Ash, Pikachu and Ho-Oh. I don't know who they are, to say nothing of those weird and ugly characters around them. If I wanted a new cast for the 20th anniversary, I wouldn't want Ash involved at all.

And you do realize that Movie 20 is eerily similar to Movie 16, right? Both started off with false hype involving nostalgia. What makes Movie 20 better, really? The cookie-cutter plot involving Ash and Marshadow looking for Ho-Oh?

Shudo is rolling in his grave. This is the second movie to mock his work.

The thing about this movie is that it lets you know you are not dealing with the original Ash from the very first preview. Why else would he have a different symbol on his hat? And considering how iconic the original symbol (to the point they include on his backpack), this tells us right away that this is not a retelling nor is this Ash forced to follow the original's footsteps.

And what makes this movie a lot more interesting than previous movies is that it actually involves Ash's personal journey rather than him being coincidentally be there for the big movie event. In other words, Ash is actively looking for Ho-Oh rather than stumbling upon the legendary like he would have done in previous movies.

 

[Silktree]

I knew that Ash was different from the get-go, but I did not imagine the extent of the changes. I had hoped that the highlights of the original series would at least be alluded to in the movie, and that the changes would be for the better.

And so what if he's actively looking for Ho-Oh? Does he have a good reason to do that? It seems like an ego trip more than anything else. Hell, the first XY movie had the gang and Diancie go on a quest looking for Xerneas...

I'll take the first three movies and the Lucario one over this mediocrity any day of the week.

 

[Shadao]

I knew that Ash was different from the get-go, but I did not imagine the extent of the changes. I had hoped that the highlights of the original series would at least be alluded to in the movie, and that the changes would be for the better.

And so what if he's actively looking for Ho-Oh? Does he have a good reason to do that? It seems like an ego trip more than anything else. Hell, the first XY movie had the gang and Diancie go on a quest looking for Xerneas...

I'll take the first three movies and the Lucario one over this mediocrity any day of the week.

From what the movie synopsis stated, Ash's search for Ho-Oh starts once the Rainbow Wing starts glowing. And considering how underused Ho-Oh was in the original series, it's an adventure worth exploring and worth a movie about. Why wouldn't Ash want to find the very legendary Pokémon that he saw on his first day as a trainer? As for the Diancie, the reason that doesn't work as well as Ho-Oh is because it's not something as nostalgic or elusive as Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh is shrouded in mystery for over 20 years, while Xerenas is more of a Legendary of the Day. That's where nostalgia works the best.

As for the original series highlights, I think we'll get them considering we saw Pikachu fighting Tangela in a building, which may be Erika's Gym. But I think it'll be more aligned with games, which I have mixed feelings considering how relatively lacking the Kanto journey was in terms of Gym Battles and pacing.

You might prefer the first three movies and Lucario, but that doesn't change how more interesting this movie is compared to recent Pokémon movies. It has both nostalgia and a new story to tell.

 

[Silktree]

Lol, I don't remember Pikachu battling Tangela in the original series. That was Bulbasaur, which may not even be part of the movie. They're sure taking ages to showcase Ash's full team, if he has one.

I really can't understand how you consider this movie nostalgic at all. And nothing implies that Ho-Oh's lore is going to be explored in this movie, or that it will appear for more than a few minutes. Glorifying the movie just on account of Ho-Oh is like saying that Movie 16 was destined to be philosophical due to the original Mewtwo... Oh wait.

The Lucario movie was somewhat nostalgic since Ash losing Pikachu made him recall their first day together. Now, that was good writing. I would have preferred Mew and Ho-Oh starring over Lucario, but still.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Lol, I don't remember Pikachu battling Tangela in the original series. That was Bulbasaur, which may not even be part of the movie. They're sure taking ages to showcase Ash's full team, if he has one.

I really can't understand how you consider this movie nostalgic at all. And nothing implies that Ho-Oh's lore is going to be explored in this movie, or that it will appear for more than a few minutes. Glorifying the movie just on account of Ho-Oh is like saying that Movie 16 was destined to be philosophical due to the original Mewtwo... Oh wait.

The Lucario movie was somewhat nostalgic since Ash losing Pikachu made him recall their first day together. Now, that was good writing. I would have preferred Mew and Ho-Oh starring over Lucario, but still.

This is the same show that though regressing Ash and making him lose to a total idiot like Cameron was a good idea.

At the end of the day, they will still earn tons of money anyways.

 

[Silktree]

Not as much as they'd like, and that makes me happy given the circumstances.

 

[Shadao]

Lol, I don't remember Pikachu battling Tangela in the original series. That was Bulbasaur, which may not even be part of the movie. They're sure taking ages to showcase Ash's full team, if he has one.

I really can't understand how you consider this movie nostalgic at all. And nothing implies that Ho-Oh's lore is going to be explored in this movie, or that it will appear for more than a few minutes. Glorifying the movie just on account of Ho-Oh is like saying that Movie 16 was destined to be philosophical due to the original Mewtwo... Oh wait.

The Lucario movie was somewhat nostalgic since Ash losing Pikachu made him recall their first day together. Now, that was good writing. I would have preferred Mew and Ho-Oh starring over Lucario, but still.

That's one of the issues with revisiting old nostalgia, there's always a desire to fix old sins. Would anyone want the return of pity badges of Kanto? Or would they rather have Ash earn them legitimately? As for the team, I believe there was a poster that featured seven prominent Pokémon out of the 151. Not that it matters considering that Pikachu and Charizard always get the spotlight.

It's nostalgic as it reminds people of what Ash saw during the first episode, and the mystery that it left behind as a result. Sun and Moon may be a nice series for children, but the series is far removed from the original series and does not invoke the same kind of awe and wonder that Ho-Oh brings every time it appears. And really, the plot centers around Ho-Oh. There's an old man who wrote a book about it, and he's still searching for the legendary bird.

Really, why are we bothered by a new incarnation of Ash? New incarnations is often the cure for long-running characters like Superman and Batman. It prevents them from being boggled down by old nostalgia while still be familiar enough for old audiences to hop on. That's the problem of the original anime. It tries to tell Ash's character and journey in new ways while still insisting it's the same Ash rather than a different one.

 

[Silktree]

This movie won't fix the issue of pity badges... because it won't even focus on gyms. At most we'll see one battle, and it won't be as epic as Charizard vs. Magmar in all likelihood. Enjoy seeing Ash battle the Paul clone instead.

An old man who knows a thing or two about a legendary? Hi there. And hello to you, too. The latest incarnation manages to be the ugliest of the bunch, and Red's hat doesn't change that.

The "Hero of the Rainbow" legend is painfully boring, too. Give me a conflict between Pokemon and people as was the case in Johto's past.

It's nostalgic as it reminds people of what Ash saw during the first episode, and the mystery that it left behind as a result.

It makes me feel that all that mystery was for nothing, since we're just getting a typical movie if you ignore all the bells and whistles.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Well, I guess showing up Brock as a companion of Ash would hurt the movie's profit.



/s

 

[Shadao]

This movie won't fix the issue of pity badges... because it won't even focus on gyms. At most we'll see one battle, and it won't be as epic as Charizard vs. Magmar in all likelihood. Enjoy seeing Ash battle the Paul clone instead.

An old man who knows a thing or two about a legendary? Hi there. And hello to you, too.


It makes me feel that all that mystery was for nothing, since we're just getting a typical movie if you ignore all the bells and whistles.

What are we to expect from a movie then if a series can cover more ground with the artist technology we have today. And really, I may be for nostalgia but I prefer a good and central story about the main character first and foremost. Because that is what determines a movie's quality for me.

Nostalgia is more like icing on the cake then the actual content. That's why the Hoopa movie did not have any success despite having the "original" legendaries of previous movies. And nostalgia can be detrimental if it gets in the way of the story.

I'm not sure why you have become super cynical with all aspects of the Pokémon anime. I may be critical of the SM anime, but I don't find any reason to constantly complain about the lack of continuity. Likewise, I may have preferred Misty and Brock over Makoto and Souji, but I would not let that get in a way of me being excited for the movie.