Thoughts on the truth regarding Lillie and UB-01 (Minor Spoilers)?

[Team Gaara]

So as we all know, before SuMo came out, we were all pretty dead set on Lillie, Lusamine, and Gladion being connected to Nihilego, Phermosa, and Buzzwole. Now I personally never saw much resemblance in Gladion and Buzzwole, but the others weren't really in question, mainly Nihilego and Lillie.

Not only is the resemblance uncanny, GF intentionally showed us scenes of Nihilego when Lillie wasn't present and went out of their way to say that it's movements "resembled that of a young girl". There wasn't really any question in mind that Lillie was somehow going to be Nihilego.

Fast forward to the game, the truth of the matter ended up being that Lillie wasn't Nihilego and it wasn't a case of "Nihilego looks just like Lillie" rather, it's Lillie that looks like Nihilego. Lillie mentions several times in game, somewhat just in conversation when you first reach two of the boutiques that she doesn't buy her own clothes, rather Lusamine does for her. And we all know that Lusamine adores Nihilego, so it's pretty much been reasoned that Lusamine is the one who dressed Lillie to resemble the Pokemon she loves so much. The two don't really have any connection otherwise (as of now, that is). It's almost just like it's played off to be a coincidence since no one in game seems to mention the resemblance either, IIRC.

That said, if that's really all there is to it and GF just played the hell out of all of us, while I mentioned that I don't really see it for Gladion, why does Lusamine herself look so much like Phermosa? She doesn't seem to have a particular attachment to it in-game since it's only seen in the Post-Game (when she's been taken to Kanto) and only in Moon on top of that (I suppose it is possible since she loves the Ultra Beasts as a whole and just seems to like Nihilego the most), though I guess she could and perhaps styled herself to look like it. Or it could just be coincidental, if not something that will be expanded upon in a potential Pokemon Stars.

I guess what I'm asking is what y'alls' thoughts are on this "development"~ How did you feel, assuming you though Lillie was Nihilego, playing the game when it turned out she wasn't? And do you think there is a possibly of there being an expansion in "Pokemon Stars" and there will actually end up being a connection between these characters and the UBs?

 

[Arceus the Dragon]

Ultra Beasts don't have a connection with people since they spent most of their time in Ultra Space. There was never a connection to begin with.

 

[TheBioGuy]

I think your suppositions are right on the nose. Lusamine dressed Lillie like nihilego, and possibly styles herself after pheromosa, and the "resemblance" between Gladion and Buzzwole is entirely coincidental. Same with supposed connections with Xurkitree, Guzzlord, Guzma, and Hala.

I hope these connections are explored in some way, if not in a 3rd version/sequel/whatever, then at least in a movie or in the anime. I suspect that the anime in general will not ignore the Lillie/Nihilego connection. Design is a much bigger aspect to consider there. On the other hand, I almost don't want them to because nihilego's power in the anime could be nightmare fuel, for sure.

 

[zoroarctic]

Amazingly, I had totally forgotten about all the Lillie = UB speculation.

Lillie mentions several times in game, somewhat just in conversation when you first reach two of the boutiques that she doesn't buy her own clothes, rather Lusamine does for her. And we all know that Lusamine adores Nihilego, so it's pretty much been reasoned that Lusamine is the one who dressed Lillie to resemble the Pokemon she loves so much.

I'm usually good at spotting these, but I never picked up on this one. That's a really good catch.

 

[Team Gaara]

I think your suppositions are right on the nose. Lusamine dressed Lillie like nihilego, and possibly styles herself after pheromosa, and the "resemblance" between Gladion and Buzzwole is entirely coincidental. Same with supposed connections with Xurkitree, Guzzlord, Guzma, and Hala.

I hope these connections are explored in some way, if not in a 3rd version/sequel/whatever, then at least in a movie or in the anime. I suspect that the anime in general will not ignore the Lillie/Nihilego connection. Design is a much bigger aspect to consider there. On the other hand, I almost don't want them to because nihilego's power in the anime could be nightmare fuel, for sure.

I never noticed the connection of Xurkitree and Hala~ (I actually named my Xurkitree after Gladion since it looked more like him than Buzzwole XD). Guzzlord I did notice, but I don't think it has the same connection in Japanese or other languages. But I am still curious about Phermosa~

I agree, an expansion in the Anime might actually be really neat! You're right, I would find it a bit odd if they never brought up the similar appearances there. XD

Amazingly, I had totally forgotten about all the Lillie = UB speculation.

I'm usually good at spotting these, but I never picked up on this one. That's a really good catch.

Once the scene in the Aether Foundation played out with Lillie seeing the summoning of Nihilego, I was actually a bit surprised that she in fact was no way connected to it. It's like, "I feel so played" LOL!

And yeah, GF was really subtle about it. XD Especially seeing as it's one of those early game convos people tend to speed though, some people probably didn't catch it. I think the second time is before she takes the PC to the Library in Malie.

It kinda makes even more sense if you think about the fact that right after Lusamine goes to the Ultra World with Nihilego, Lillie finally changes her outfit. It's almost symbolic in a way and kinda connects with her speech later to her mother than "children are not just things" in that she's sort of becoming her own person, rather than just her mother's obedient plaything (Lusamine rants several times about how children should be obedient)~

I may be getting confusing in there, but basically, I think it was pretty well-played~ XP

 

[zoroarctic]

And yeah, GF was really subtle about it. XD Especially seeing as it's one of those early game convos people tend to speed though, some people probably didn't catch it. I think the second time is before she takes the PC to the Library in Malie.

It kinda makes even more sense if you think about the fact that right after Lusamine goes to the Ultra World with Nihilego, Lillie finally changes her outfit. It's almost symbolic in a way and kinda connects with her speech later to her mother than "children are not just things" in that she's sort of becoming her own person, rather than just her mother's obedient plaything (Lusamine rants several times about how children should be obedient)~

I may be getting confusing in there, but basically, I think it was pretty well-played~ XP

Sort of like Ghetsis and N. It's one of those "holy s***!" moments when you realize what the games are actually implying. Very nicely done.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Lusamine reminds me a lot of Gendo Ikari from Neon Genesis Evangelion. Kicks the creepiness factor up a notch.

 

[godiego]

UB-01 and Lillie may have had some resemblance-- one that was revealed to be done intentionally by Lusamine to boot-- but from there people saw what they wanted to see. i don't think it's all that likely that Lusamine styles herself in Pheromosa's likeness, given how all-out she goes with Lillie, it seems a bit odd she would miss the mark on herself. and really from there it's just a mess all around.

 

[Esserise]

Frankly I think it's a much better, much simpler, much more emotionally meaningful explanation than any of the crazy fanwank we were all coming up with.

I don't think the Lusamine/Pheromosa resemblance means anything, in-universe at least. Wicke informs us that Nihilego and Guzzlord are the only Ultra Beasts that have been seen before the recent wave. So unless Lusamine had some unrevealed knowledge about the other UBs (which isn't outside the realm of possibility, but there's not really any reason to hide that fact from us, the audience), she couldn't have modeled her fashion on Pheromosa intentionally. It's probably noteworthy that Nihilego is all she seems fixated on.

It could have some symbolic meaning, but even then, I doubt there'd be much too it beyond them both being beautiful/mesmerizing.

And all things considered, I think I prefer it that the other Beasts are unrelated to any particular characters. To me, it makes them feel more like their own thing... more organic to the world of the series. Whereas if like, Xurkitree really did have some intrinsic connection to Guzma, it would be associated with that forever. I'd just find that a little awkward in any future games where the Ultra Beasts appear (which, given that they really are Pokémon with Dex numbers and everything, is almost certain to happen), to be thinking, "Oh hey it's one of those extradimensional things that copied the look of some thug in Alola." It's just an odd thing for my mind to be drawn back to when playing a different game.

I also think people are putting a bit too much stock in the idea that Lusamine was always influenced by Nihilego's toxins (or was influenced by them at any point prior to entering Ultra Space), although I could very well be saying that because I find the idea of her grief over a lost love morphing into obsession to be far more human and compelling than her being driven crazy by space jellyfish.

 

[Karamazov]

It’s said that, for some reason, its movements resemble those of a young girl.

It’s unclear whether or not this Pokémon is sentient, but sometimes it can be observed behaving like a young girl.

The whole "Nihilego acts like a young girl" thing was a blatant red herring that made little sense once we knew everything. Aside from scratching at its "arm" and screaming a lot, it didn't even really act human. In fact, its sentience is up for debate. If the game and pre-release material didn't state this, I'd have been fine with what we had - it would be our own fault for reading too much into it. But they were definitely trying to hint at something.

I like the story we have now, it's very human and compelling. But I'd have also liked to have seen a story where Lillie was unknowingly a Nihilego. It'd be kind of scary and bizarre, and not something that happens a lot in this franchise. Something that could be predicted, but would still be shocking and interesting. Though that'd be pretty messed up/hilarious when we got to catch one. Imagine the horrible implications if they had human intelligence and sapience, but could be subjugated. But I guess we have Psychic types, and maybe Lillie could have been a special case, so.

I also saw speculation that Ultra Beasts took on similar forms to humans because they absorbed their energy, Z-Power, or what the fuck ever when they first came through their portals. Actually giving them a connection to other characters would have been pretty interesting.

 

[Sakuraa]

I was kind of shocked at first. I was one of those who was dead set sure that Lillie was Nihilego. So then when it shows up as its own separate being I was just like, "wait it's not her?". More than anything, I was just a bit disappointed that no character actually talks about how similar they look. There's no, "Hey Lillie, that Pokemon kind of looks like you." or a, "My mom dressed me to look like this Ultra Beast because she's obsessed with it." from Lillie, even though its pretty obvious.

 

[Master Cyrus]

I was hoping the climax of the game was Lusamine forcibly transforming Lillie into Nihilego with you having to kill her by your own hand.

But that didn't pan out.

 

[Team Gaara]

I was hoping the climax of the game was Lusamine forcibly transforming Lillie into Nihilego with you having to kill her by your own hand.

But that didn't pan out.

Well, that would have been something new~ X_______X

The whole "Nihilego acts like a young girl" thing was a blatant red herring that made little sense once we knew everything. Aside from scratching at its "arm" and screaming a lot, it didn't even really act human. In fact, its sentience is up for debate. If the game and pre-release material didn't state this, I'd have been fine with what we had - it would be our own fault for reading too much into it. But they were definitely trying to hint at something.

I like the story we have now, it's very human and compelling. But I'd have also liked to have seen a story where Lillie was unknowingly a Nihilego. It'd be kind of scary and bizarre, and not something that happens a lot in this franchise. Something that could be predicted, but would still be shocking and interesting. Though that'd be pretty messed up/hilarious when we got to catch one. Imagine the horrible implications if they had human intelligence and sapience, but could be subjugated. But I guess we have Psychic types, and maybe Lillie could have been a special case, so.

I also saw speculation that Ultra Beasts took on similar forms to humans because they absorbed their energy, Z-Power, or what the fuck ever when they first came through their portals. Actually giving them a connection to other characters would have been pretty interesting.

Yeah, at first I was thinking Lillie might have been working with Kukui and didn't like battles because perhaps she'd hurt something/someone as Nihilego and was doing it for the sake of not hurting others and finding some sort of cure to prevent it from happening again. Then I thought about this bolded bit that maybe it's that she is an Ultra Beat but doesn't know it, while Lusamine wants to catch the UBs for research and eventually comes to find out it's Lillie. Then I had a mini theory tying in with the current plot and the one I just mentioned: Lillie is Nihilego and Lusamine (amidst her madness in the Ultra World) will have to decide if she wants her precious Nihilego or her own child. Overall, with all these possibilities we could have had, it's still funny to think that it ended up just being a case of Lusamine putting her obsessions on her daughter's outfits.

But I still think a possible expansion on this is still to be considered~

 

[Muur]

GF trolled. Although it was probably the fans going completely over the top with speculation. Lusamine just dressing up Lille as the jellyfish is a little disappointing but that's just cuz of all the false hype that was built up.

 

[godiego]

GF trolled. Although it was probably the fans going completely over the top with speculation. Lusamine just dressing up Lille as the jellyfish is a little disappointing but that's just cuz of all the false hype that was built up.

how can GF have trolled and built hype when it was the fans that largely assumed that every UB had a human tie? Game Freak may have put out that UB-01 and Lillie have a connection, which isn't wrong, but it was the fans that irrationally took it a step further and assumed that every UB must have a human doppelganger.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Lillie was just dressed up as a Nihilego, due to her mother's obsession with it. I think many people did see a connection and it wasn't wrong to think that way, though every UB being a human in disguise was a pretty out there theory.

 

[Team Gaara]

GF trolled. Although it was probably the fans going completely over the top with speculation. Lusamine just dressing up Lille as the jellyfish is a little disappointing but that's just cuz of all the false hype that was built up.

how can GF have trolled and built hype when it was the fans that largely assumed that every UB had a human tie? Game Freak may have put out that UB-01 and Lillie have a connection, which isn't wrong, but it was the fans that irrationally took it a step further and assumed that every UB must have a human doppelganger.

In terms of "false hype" all GAMEFREAK really did was say that Nihilego's movements "resembled that of a young girl" and it ended up being a coincidence. So, as far as Lillie and Nihilego goes, that was pretty much the only trolling they did~ XD Otherwise, I can agree that it was mostly fans who got to speculating that the other UBs were connected to other characters~ Other than Phermosa and Lusamine, none of the ones revealed before release look all that much like any other characters~

 

[Lufenium]

Maybe its mimicry of a young a girl is Nihilego trying to act more human so Lusamine will feel more affection for it.

Lusamine dressing up her daughter as a Nihilego is a pretty clever observation. If true, it really shows how far her obsession with ultra beasts really went, and how damaged by her husband's loss she was.

 

[Hellpest]

I agree, an expansion in the Anime might actually be really neat! You're right, I would find it a bit odd if they never brought up the similar appearances there.

*has GS ball flashbacks*

Are you suuure that because something exists it'll be explained in the anime?

 

[Zeta]

I like the idea I've seen floating around that Ultra Space is just an alternate version of Pokemon Earth where humans never evolved, so the native Pokemon became far more alien since they weren't bred to reflect and interact with human emotions over the course of several millennia. The related theory, that the Ultra Beasts are the alternate universe Pokemon versions of several Alola characters is also compelling. IE - if Lusamine's "soul" was born into world without humans the result would be Pheremosa, Xurkitree is Ultra Space's version of Guzma and so on.

 

[Team Gaara]

Maybe its mimicry of a young a girl is Nihilego trying to act more human so Lusamine will feel more affection for it.

Lusamine dressing up her daughter as a Nihilego is a pretty clever observation. If true, it really shows how far her obsession with ultra beasts really went, and how damaged by her husband's loss she was.

Did it say in-game something about her husband?