Would X/Y's story be more well-received had it came after gen 4?

[Hellomello]

...or any generation prior, really. I'm curious about this since I've seen quite a lot of distaste towards X/Y's story both on this forum and others, more-so than any other game to date. I'm wondering if the reason to this is because it's often compared unfavorably to gen V's story, as BW is often considered to have the best plot of any Pokemon game thus far.

Personally, I thought that the story was fairly decent; not especially amazing, but up to par with the pre-gen 5 games.

 

[PurplePopplio]

I think that the problem wasn't the comparison to BW, but the transition to the 3DS. They were more focused on the graphics and looking beautiful, the theme of Kalos, than being invigorating with story.

I wouldn't say that they were a test for the 3DS since they added much (Fairy-type, Mega Evolution etc.). But they do feel a bit like a test.

 

[SpikOriundo]

I have 15 hours on Y. Still on the second gym.
That's how much Pokemon Amie, Super Training and berry planting have interested me more than the story.
Like, really, nothing really happens on the beginning of the game. The one thing that made me progress this much was reviving Tyrunt.

 

[Soki]

Maybe it would have been received a bit better, because there isn't gen V to compare to. But I seriously think it has the worst story of all the games, so for me it wouldn't have mattered when it was released. And Gen IV's my fav, so this would still have been a huge let down if it was introduced right after that.

 

[Iteru]

I don't think it would have, mainly because Platinum had a decent story and no one was really going to criticise Heart Gold and Soul Silver because of their remake status. I think the story of Black and White is a step up from Platinum, but they're not leagues apart in my opinion.

X and Y have problems with AZ being completely boring and one-note, but then some of the problems are shared with BW; N is also a very one-note character.

 

[Esserise]

I think it would probably help the perception, but it wouldn't be the ultimate fix (I'm presuming that in this scenario, they still gruesomely mishandle AZ).

I do feel like Platinum's story is somewhat romanticized - maybe it's not actually as rancid as I personally think it is (I admit that a lot of my objections stem from personal preferences, like about the scale of it and about the Legendary Pokémon being "deities," which are issues that I'm sure weren't a problem for a fair share of other players), but nevertheless, I don't think it has the thematic depth of XY, and Cyrus is more simplistic and one-note than Lysandre. Though I guess as a trade-off, we get Diantha in exchange for Cynthia, but then again, what exactly is Cynthia's personality beyond "likes mythology"? Not much more than Diantha really, she just gets more screentime in which to be a robotically idealistic "good" Trainer. Team Galactic and Team Flare are roughly equal levels of goofy (then again, stealing honey?), but Galactic's admins are handled better than Flare's (though not *much* better in my opinion; I think they're still largely boring and pale in comparison to Colress & Zinzolin or the ORAS admins), so mark a point for Platinum there.

On rivals, it's tricky to say. I know that I like XY's rival group more than most people (I mean, they're not fantastic, but I don't find myself hating them). But while I'd say that Dawn/Lucas weren't exactly memorable, Barry was actually pretty good. So I do think Platinum would, for the most part rightly, be held as superior in that regard.

So I guess overall, my suspicion is that Platinum would still be viewed as the better entry (and that's a stance that surely wouldn't be without its supporting arguments, even if I myself wouldn't agree), though XY might shine a bit brighter than they do now.

Edit: You know, I wonder if the lack of story behind Xerneas/Yveltal would be more appreciated in this scenario. When Platinum came out, I remember there being a sizable negative reaction to the "overabundance" of Legendary Pokémon and their increased story roles making them "feel less special." Xerneas/Yveltal step back from that considerably, so maybe they'd be seen as a return to form, in some ways.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Probably not. I think that some of X/Y's flaws with its storyline and characters stood out more because of how the fifth generation did a really great job in both areas, but that wasn't the only reason people didn't care for the storyline. Most complaints I've seen for X/Y don't compare it with B/W that much. Those are just focused on the games themselves more often than not. It might have seemed a bit better when I don't think that the fourth generation had a lot of standout characters, but I don't think that the storyline would be receive much more than it generally has.

 

[Norzan]

To me XY's plot was actually a step up from BW's plot. XY's plot just left me indifferent, while BW just left me angry. I rather feel indifference than outright anger. BW's plot was just so pretentitious with its head so far up its own ass and that ending just made it an hundred times worse.

Then again, the Looker postgame story of XY is probably the only time i actually cared about any character in a main series game, which makes it my favourite story in the series so far. I still haven't finished Sun, so that might change.

 

[Zweilous]

It may've helped, but I don't think it would've completely changed everything about its perception as a good chunk of its flaws would still be present even with Gen 5 moved out of the equation, and even when you get to the comparisons between it and Platinum it doesn't end up favorable for it such as with the aforementioned rival characters. So while it may've gotten a bit better for it, I still don't think it would've been rated highly at all.

Edit: You know, I wonder if the lack of story behind Xerneas/Yveltal would be more appreciated in this scenario. When Platinum came out, I remember there being a sizable negative reaction to the "overabundance" of Legendary Pokémon and their increased story roles making them "feel less special." Xerneas/Yveltal step back from that considerably, so maybe they'd be seen as a return to form, in some ways.

I'm not sure it would've completely changed their reception. While Reshiram and Zekrom tend to get more praise for their roles in the story in comparison to Dialga and Palkia, Gen 5 as a whole did get the 'too many legendaries' complaint that Gen 4 did, so I don't think Gen 6 severely cutting down the number would've saved face for the duo if it didn't already. Additionally, if I do remember correctly, the climax at Spear Pillar with Giratina, the Pixies, and the Distortion World was pretty well received itself. So Xerneas/Yveltal's storyline following that I don't think would've gone over too well for them either since they'd lack the same feel that Platinum gave for its main legendary.

 

[Pokefan19]

I'm gonna say no, because even Platinum had a pretty good story that added on top of D/P's decent story.

Let's be honest, unlike Pokemon's past "friends turned rivals" schtick (Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova), XY completely screwed up in that department. Not only were your friends completely helpless against you, only the opposite gender protag had a semi-functional team throughout the game. If they really wanted to make it a journey with these guys, instead of them use being cheerleaders who help you gain experience, why not let Shauna, Trevor, and Tierno all have better teams?

And that's sadly a good majority of the story anyway, because the rest is just random encounters with Team Flare and like two encounters with Lysandre before the shocking reveal that he's the villain. AZ was a disgrace as well. The whole legendary trio wasn't even that Special, especially since I don't think most people would have known about Zygarde had they not searched in some random cave located before the 8th Gym or the guidebook I'm guessing.

 

[Esserise]

and even when you get to the comparisons between it and Platinum it doesn't end up favorable for it such as with the aforementioned rival characters. So while it may've gotten a bit better for it, I still don't think it would've been rated highly at all.

XY's story may be a step down from Platinum in some respects, but I don't think they're that much of a step down, and they're still more story-driven than any of the games before Platinum. From the perspective of a world where XY came after Gen IV, I think it would appear as though Game Freak were maintaining a relatively steady course, albeit growing increasingly derivative.

Technically speaking, XY wouldn't actually be competing with Platinum. They'd be competing with DP, and since sequels wouldn't be a concept yet, I'd bet that people would just assume that the "about average for Pokémon by this point, if somewhat lacking compared to Platinum" plot of XY would get fleshed out in Z - granted, that happened to some extent in this reality, but the situation was a lot more complicated due to the timing of the anniversary and due to the possibility of sequels, and even the suggestion of prequels.

Before Gen V came along, Pokémon wasn't exactly renowned for its storytelling capabilities, so there was a much lower bar to clear in general even though Platinum was warmly received.

I'm not sure it would've completely changed their reception. While Reshiram and Zekrom tend to get more praise for their roles in the story in comparison to Dialga and Palkia, Gen 5 as a whole did get the 'too many legendaries' complaint that Gen 4 did, so I don't think Gen 6 severely cutting down the number would've saved face for the duo if it didn't already. Additionally, if I do remember correctly, the climax at Spear Pillar with Giratina, the Pixies, and the Distortion World was pretty well received itself. So Xerneas/Yveltal's storyline following that I don't think would've gone over too well for them either since they'd lack the same feel that Platinum gave for its main legendary.

You make a good point. I'm just wondering if, even though those complaints were reiterated with Gen V, the handling of the Legendary Pokémon in BW helped to redeem the approach in some peoples' eyes.

And that's sadly a good majority of the story anyway, because the rest is just random encounters with Team Flare and like two encounters with Lysandre before the shocking reveal that he's the villain. AZ was a disgrace as well.

I agree that AZ was horrible, but let's not pretend that DPP are without their:

* Plot holes - Team Galactic's energy-gathering plot vanishes into thin air even harder than Mega Evolution, as does Rowan's research into Pokémon evolution (he specifically asks you to investigate the Lake spirits in the hopes that it'll lead to a discovery about Evolution - it leads to jack-squat, as does the thread about the energy that Pokémon are said to emit when the evolve, which Team Galactic is supposedly trying to harness, whereas Rowan believes it to be a mystical energy beyond human control).
* Absurd encounters with the villains - I repeat: stealing honey. This group, whose lofty intentions are to ascend Mount Olympus, summon the gods of time and space, and create a brand new universe, conspire to do so in such a way that somehow calls for two of their number to go out and steal honey. Just think about that. Now, aside from the Fossil scheme which is just a casual cash-grab and a Team Rocket shout-out, Team Flare's shenanigans can at least all be loosely connected to the weapon. The power plant takeover, the mass-theft of Poké Balls, and the attempted capture of Abomasnow at Frost Cavern are all attempts to gather the components needed for the weapon's activation.
* Plain-as-day obvious villain leader - No, the guy clad in gray and black clothes who introduces himself as believing that the world is being ruined by the incomplete human spirit is sure to have NOTHING to do with the villains of the game... furthermore, there literally are only two encounters (out of a whopping grand total of four) with Cyrus in DP before he's "outed" as the Big Bad. Platinum add two at the very beginning, but that's somewhat of a pointless gesture considering that they're both extremely brief and anybody who'd played DP is already going to know who he is. Lysandre gets three in-person encounters and one personal message to you via Holo Caster before he eventually makes his announcement in Anistar City. We have two more run-ins with him after that, one at the Labs and one at the Secret HQ.

The whole legendary trio wasn't even that Special, especially since I don't think most people would have known about Zygarde had they not searched in some random cave located before the 8th Gym or the guidebook I'm guessing.

Can the same not be said of Giratina? Lots of people who did know about it weren't even convinced it'd be the mascot of Sinnoh's follow-up game.

 

[Foxwarrior]

XY's story may be a step down from Platinum in some respects, but I don't think they're that much of a step down, and they're still more story-driven than any of the games before Platinum. From the perspective of a world where XY came after Gen IV, I think it would appear as though Game Freak were maintaining a relatively steady course, albeit growing increasingly derivative.

Technically speaking, XY wouldn't actually be competing with Platinum. They'd be competing with DP, and since sequels wouldn't be a concept yet, I'd bet that people would just assume that the "about average for Pokémon by this point, if somewhat lacking compared to Platinum" plot of XY would get fleshed out in Z - granted, that happened to some extent in this reality, but the situation was a lot more complicated due to the timing of the anniversary and due to the possibility of sequels, and even the suggestion of prequels.

Before Gen V came along, Pokémon wasn't exactly renowned for its storytelling capabilities, so there was a much lower bar to clear in general even though Platinum was warmly received.



You make a good point. I'm just wondering if, even though those complaints were reiterated with Gen V, the handling of the Legendary Pokémon in BW helped to redeem the approach in some peoples' eyes.



I agree that AZ was horrible, but let's not pretend that DPP are without their:

* Plot holes - Team Galactic's energy-gathering plot vanishes into thin air even harder than Mega Evolution, as does Rowan's research into Pokémon evolution (he specifically asks you to investigate the Lake spirits in the hopes that it'll lead to a discovery about Evolution - it leads to jack-squat, as does the thread about the energy that Pokémon are said to emit when the evolve, which Team Galactic is supposedly trying to harness, whereas Rowan believes it to be a mystical energy beyond human control).
* Absurd encounters with the villains - I repeat: stealing honey. This group, whose lofty intentions are to ascend Mount Olympus, summon the gods of time and space, and create a brand new universe, conspire to do so in such a way that somehow calls for two of their number to go out and steal honey. Just think about that. Now, aside from the Fossil scheme which is just a casual cash-grab and a Team Rocket shout-out, Team Flare's shenanigans can at least all be loosely connected to the weapon. The power plant takeover, the mass-theft of Poké Balls, and the attempted capture of Abomasnow at Frost Cavern are all attempts to gather the components needed for the weapon's activation.
* Plain-as-day obvious villain leader - No, the guy clad in gray and black clothes who introduces himself as believing that the world is being ruined by the incomplete human spirit is sure to have NOTHING to do with the villains of the game... furthermore, there literally are only two encounters (out of a whopping grand total of four) with Cyrus in DP before he's "outed" as the Big Bad. Platinum add two at the very beginning, but that's somewhat of a pointless gesture considering that they're both extremely brief and anybody who'd played DP is already going to know who he is. Lysandre gets three in-person encounters and one personal message to you via Holo Caster before he eventually makes his announcement in Anistar City. We have two more run-ins with him after that, one at the Labs and one at the Secret HQ.



Can the same not be said of Giratina? Lots of people who did know about it weren't even convinced it'd be the mascot of Sinnoh's follow-up game.

I particularlly think XY story was great in concept, but badly presented with a terrible pacing. Most characters were bland, uncharismatic and decharacterized. They were just stereotypes.especially the rivals that were really annoying.

lots of points on Platinum's main story was unexplained and the characters were just a presence - a problem with the first games, but this eventually will be fixed in the remakes, like happend with ORAS.

I think the stealing honey issue is just some goofy villains taking advantage of their power and stealing no sense stuff. Or could Honey be like a fuel, something similar? I agree with your criticism, but this was just a minor point that can be fixed in the plot.

Considering the timeline, so I think XY's plot would be more received if it was released as the fourth generation, between RSE and DPP, being Sinnoh the 5th generation and BW the sixth.

 

[Zweilous]

Sorry for the late reply!

XY's story may be a step down from Platinum in some respects, but I don't think they're that much of a step down, and they're still more story-driven than any of the games before Platinum. From the perspective of a world where XY came after Gen IV, I think it would appear as though Game Freak were maintaining a relatively steady course, albeit growing increasingly derivative.

Technically speaking, XY wouldn't actually be competing with Platinum. They'd be competing with DP, and since sequels wouldn't be a concept yet, I'd bet that people would just assume that the "about average for Pokémon by this point, if somewhat lacking compared to Platinum" plot of XY would get fleshed out in Z - granted, that happened to some extent in this reality, but the situation was a lot more complicated due to the timing of the anniversary and due to the possibility of sequels, and even the suggestion of prequels.

Before Gen V came along, Pokémon wasn't exactly renowned for its storytelling capabilities, so there was a much lower bar to clear in general even though Platinum was warmly received.

Those are good points, particularly the middle point since, as you said before, we did see elements of that already in our current situation and I'd imagine that something like that would similarly happen in that hypothetical scenario. So with that in mind and the comparison potentially shifting to DP from Platinum, it could be more favorable then I'm giving it credit for. With that said though, I do think some of the elements would still garner their share of criticism even with the lack of story presence and comparisons to Platinum. With the rivals for instance, despite May/Brendan coming out in Gen 3 where the storytelling also wasn't given as much presence, we still saw a good amount of criticism thrown towards those characters as many still found them to be unmemorable and lackluster, and even with the bigger focus on storytelling with Gen 6, I don't think the rivals would've been saved from most of the criticisms they get now even in that hypothetical situation. So even though the storytelling wouldn't be the focus, elements of that story would still be seen as a step down, there just may've been more leniency since a lot of fans would be hoping for a Z to patch it up.

You make a good point. I'm just wondering if, even though those complaints were reiterated with Gen V, the handling of the Legendary Pokémon in BW helped to redeem the approach in some peoples' eyes.

Potentially as I know some including myself who preferred BW's approach, but I can't speak for everyone in that regard nor will I try to. It is a question I would like to learn the answer to as well though, even if just out of interest in the question.

 

[Esserise]

I particularlly think XY story was great in concept, but badly presented with a terrible pacing. Most characters were bland, uncharismatic and decharacterized. They were just stereotypes.especially the rivals that were really annoying.

See, I don't really mind the rivals in XY. I actually rather like Serena/Calem, and I think Trevor is decent, too. The reason why they don't bother me too much is because I really don't think Game Freak were trying to create the next Cheren and Bianca - I think what they wanted was simply a diverse group of easy-going friends all with their own individual quirks. Honestly I do like the idea of traveling around the region with a group of friends, but that is inherently a bit of an unwieldy concept so I'm not surprised that their first attempt to do it was executed unevenly.

But I recognize that I have a very unpopular opinion in that regard.

lots of points on Platinum's main story was unexplained and the characters were just a presence - a problem with the first games, but this eventually will be fixed in the remakes, like happend with ORAS.

I do hope so. ORAS worked an unbelievable feat of magic on the trash heap that was RSE's story. Here's to improvement via hindsight.

With that said though, I do think some of the elements would still garner their share of criticism even with the lack of story presence and comparisons to Platinum. With the rivals for instance, despite May/Brendan coming out in Gen 3 where the storytelling also wasn't given as much presence, we still saw a good amount of criticism thrown towards those characters as many still found them to be unmemorable and lackluster, and even with the bigger focus on storytelling with Gen 6, I don't think the rivals would've been saved from most of the criticisms they get now even in that hypothetical situation.

And now we've entered unfamiliar territory for me - I wasn't really around in the days of Gen III. But my impression is that a big part of the reason why May/Brendan were disliked was because they were completely and inexplicably derailed as rivals - that is, we never got a "proper" final battle with them; they just drop out around Lilycove with a middle-stage Starter. Up until that point, they at least had a fair amount of characterization for the "pre-having actual stories" era, even if it wasn't as provocative as Blue or Silver (which I think is more of a separate issue, or maybe it wasn't then but has since morphed into one, because the complaint that the rivals are "too nice" persists to this day).

Potentially as I know some including myself who preferred BW's approach, but I can't speak for everyone in that regard nor will I try to. It is a question I would like to learn the answer to as well though, even if just out of interest in the question.

Of course, I suppose that after Gen V, some may have instead simply resigned themselves to the new trend of having many new Legendary Pokémon. In the case of those people, maybe XY-as-Gen V would have been seen as correcting the course before it was too late.

But yeah, there just aren't enough statistics to go beyond hypotheticals about this.

 

[Almonds]

Probably not, because Platinum is much better than XY in a lot of areas. But it may have reduced the negativity by a teensy bit or so since BW had the best story and B2W2 had a ton of stuff to do.

 

[ocelotlrama jaguar]

For me, probably not. Black and White, should they have come out in Generation VI instead of Gen V, will always have had the superior storyline as far as I'm concerned. My big problems with X and Y's storyline had a lot to do with shoving Mega Evolution down our throats and having a bajillion rival characters to keep track of. In complete fairness, I liked X and Y's storyline a lot more than Black 2 and White 2's, but that's not really saying too much.

Of course, the storyline was probably not my least favorite thing about X and Y. The games just didn't leave a good impression on me even with the story taken out of the equation. They were fun for the moment, but nothing I'll go back to playing again after all is said and done, especially for the storyline.

 

[Bolt Strike]

You'd have to go back a lot further for XY to stand out. Like, back to RBY or GSC. That's how much of a regression it is in terms of gameplay and storyline. The problem is less with XY though and more with the lack of a Z or XY2. XY vs. Platinum is no contest, but that's not really a fair comparison to begin with because Platinum is much more polished because it's a third version and XY had no comparable experience to Platinum. If you compare it more with RS, DP, and BW, which serve similar roles as XY, it's a little more fair. Still a bit subpar, but not to the point where it would be seen as significantly worse.

And now we've entered unfamiliar territory for me - I wasn't really around in the days of Gen III. But my impression is that a big part of the reason why May/Brendan were disliked was because they were completely and inexplicably derailed as rivals - that is, we never got a "proper" final battle with them; they just drop out around Lilycove with a middle-stage Starter. Up until that point, they at least had a fair amount of characterization for the "pre-having actual stories" era, even if it wasn't as provocative as Blue or Silver (which I think is more of a separate issue, or maybe it wasn't then but has since morphed into one, because the complaint that the rivals are "too nice" persists to this day).

When I first played RS I barely even noticed that Brendan/May dropped out mid game and that didn't bother me a whole lot. They just made so little an impression compared to Blue and Silver that I just didn't care about them. I imagine it's the same for a lot of other people, the issue with rivals being too friendly eclipsed the issue with you not having a final battle with them and they just didn't like Brendan/May enough to care.

 

[Foxwarrior]

You'd have to go back a lot further for XY to stand out. Like, back to RBY or GSC. That's how much of a regression it is in terms of gameplay and storyline. The problem is less with XY though and more with the lack of a Z or XY2. XY vs. Platinum is no contest, but that's not really a fair comparison to begin with because Platinum is much more polished because it's a third version and XY had no comparable experience to Platinum. If you compare it more with RS, DP, and BW, which serve similar roles as XY, it's a little more fair. Still a bit subpar, but not to the point where it would be seen as significantly worse.

I agree, but on the other hand, at the time of XY release, there was a lot of people complaining that BW story was too much, (bitching) and asking for a more simple story like the first games, and somehow game Freak did that, and didn't work very well, as it's obviously a regression. But well... anyway they tried. For sure BW and SM has much more enjoyable stories and more interesting characters, so i hope they keep like that and improve even more in the future games.

 

[Esserise]

there was a lot of people complaining that BW story was too much, (bitching) and asking for a more simple story like the first games, and somehow game Freak did that, and didn't work very well, as it's obviously a regression.

The first part of what you say is true. But I'm not so sure that Game Freak were actively trying to decrease the "level" of storytelling in XY in response to those complaints about BW. XY are still more interested in actually being a story than anything prior to Gen V. They just revert to a more formulaic, traditional model for the series, but B2W2 had already done that to some degree. The character arcs in XY are far less pronounced than in BW, but generally speaking, I think that was always going to happen. We see the same thing in B2W2, with Hugh, Colress, and Zinzolin (sort of) being the only ones to get a significant amount of character focus, but B2W2 have the added benefit of being able to trust that we're probably already familiar with all of the other characters.

I think BW (and SM) are aberrations in terms of being heavily story- and character-focused. Even ORAS only devotes its energy toward developing/characterizing a relatively small cluster of characters. The Gym Leaders are, as in XY and in pre-Gen V games, (mostly) still just checkpoints with some token off-site appearances in the post-game. ORAS's most story-based section, the Delta Episode, shares its genealogy with XY's Looker Bureau*, not anything from Gen V (whereas the Ultra Beast quest in SM is more rooted in the Sage round-up from BW, and both of these actually are a more low-effort model, consisting largely of copy/paste scenes and dialogue interspersed between missions).

* And these two post-game storylines are themselves descended from the Charon storyline from Platinum.

That being said, XY's storyline obviously does feel more lacking than B2W2 or ORAS. Why might this be? The easy culprit would probably be the amount of work they had to do in order to make XY, since ORAS were able to tell more-or-less a second draft of the Kalos story (albeit transplanted into the Hoenn region) that seems to have been more satisfying for people overall. And of course they had to do a lot less work for ORAS, since XY did the heavy lifting - that's quite possibly a factor here.

Of course, there is also the factor that XY are an original storyline made mostly from scratch, while ORAS have the benefit of 12 years' worth of hindsight, and of most of the dialogue and scenarios already existing in an initial draft (Ruby and Sapphire).

Which is all to say that I don't think that, if not for a subset of fans complaining about the story-driven nature of BW, we'd be swimming in BW-level stories right now. I think stuff like XY and ORAS is still about what we'd be seeing.

 

[Silktree]

If you compare it more with RS, DP, and BW, which serve similar roles as XY, it's a little more fair. Still a bit subpar, but not to the point where it would be seen as significantly worse.

This thread is about the storyline, so to equate BW with RS, DP and XY is frankly a bit weird.

I think BW (and SM) are aberrations in terms of being heavily story- and character-focused.

I sincerely hope this changes going forward, because those games didn't even go that far with the story focus.