Do you think the Contest arc opened the show up to romance and shoujo storylines?

[A Concerned Solomon]

Yeah, but had two strikes in that there he had no personality to speak of despite his confidence and he didn't appear for long or accomplish much of anything. I mean, you could argue that current Ash is a bit of a Gary Stu (this is what you get when your characters' big flaw is a lack of knowledge - any development and you're heading down that dark path), but we also rarely him fall apart over a defeat anymore, either.

People love James Bond, and he has most of the traits of a Mary Sue, wouldn't you say? Shinji Ikari gets the exact opposite, even though he does have good reason for being as screwy as he is...except for one infamous scene at the end of the movie. That doesn't even...but whatever, you get the point.

 

[Cybersai]

Yes, but James Bond saves the world and gets all the girls, who doesn't want to be like him?

 

[A Concerned Solomon]

Exactly, but wouldn't you scoff if Bond started going on about how bad his life was, and it was played straight? It simply would not work!

 

[Jo-Jo]

Jo-Jo, I like how you disappear and avoid this thread when its convenient for you. I know what you're doing.

Do you, now. I know what I'm doing, too. Obsessively trolling the net for House spoilers, then watching the season finale.

Spoiler

CHASE/CAMERON!! <3

I do in fact have a life outside of the Pokemon fandom. (Though not, it would seem, the internet.)

I haven't been posting here much because everyone else already covered all the good arguments (you guys rule ^_^), and because quite honestly I don't have it in me to go through the motions of a debate over whether Brianna's character design was intended to make May look more attractive in comparison.


James Bond is a tosser. Vesper was cool, though.


I think for the purposes of this discussion, much as it seems to have wandered off-course, it would help to make a distinction between 'shoujo' and 'stuff that's aimed at girls'. As far as I can make out, shoujo is a specific type of girl-oriented narrative that involves a lot of pink sparkliness. The contests have certainly contained a lot of the sparkliness, which is a point in favour of them containing more shoujo content, but this doesn't mean that there was nothing about the show prior to the contests designed to appeal to girls.

Mostly, though, I don't see the point in the first place of treating the male and female segments of the audience like separate species, who are only capable of appreciating totally different types of plots. I would think that both men and women will be attracted by good writing. Throw in a little fanservice if you really feel the need to pander to one half or the other. I am unconvinced that AG and DP have a monopoly on girl-centric romance plotlines; Pokeshipping was more Misty's story than Ash's. May and Dawn's journeys are also thematically the same as Ash's, and they learn similar lessons.

 

[Pie]

Mostly, though, I don't see the point in the first place of treating the male and female segments of the audience like separate species, who are only capable of appreciating totally different types of plots.

Quoted for truth.

Honestly, the contests bug me, and they're far from my favorite episodes. And the Gym Battles... bug me slightly less. I like the character-centric side stories. I find it more exciting when they're fighting to defend a gym or something than fighting for little pins of merit.

And as an openly rampant feminist, the sexism has irked me since the start of AG. One reason I like Dawn more than May is because she has more confidence, and comes off as a more positive and less cliche female character.

The shipping's never been heavy in Pokémon, now or ever, in comparison to other series. The Contest arc didn't change that. In fact, I think a lot of people would agree the shippiest season was Orange Islands, mostly because of one episode.

Yes, there is a higher ppt level of sparkles in the anime. But that's more how they portray it. As appeals by characters like Harley and Brock have shown, good appeals can come in a lot of flavors - they just choose to mostly show sparkly, pretty, and stereotypically girly ones.

 

[Cybersai]

Mostly, though, I don't see the point in the first place of treating the male and female segments of the audience like separate species, who are only capable of appreciating totally different types of plots. I would think that both men and women will be attracted by good writing. Throw in a little fanservice if you really feel the need to pander to one half or the other. I am unconvinced that AG and DP have a monopoly on girl-centric romance plotlines; Pokeshipping was more Misty's story than Ash's. May and Dawn's journeys are also thematically the same as Ash's, and they learn similar lessons.

True, but Contestshipping was obviously May's story. Drew was a love interest, but he wasn't the main character. The entire concept revolved around the heroine getting the guy, which is exactly the same stuff you see in those shoujo anime or romance novels aimed at young teen girls.

If Dawn falls for either Kengo or Nozomi, it'll be the same thing.

And honestly, how are Contests not filled with...dare I say it, "Girl power?" May's entire story was based on a girl who started out knowning next to nothing and eventually achieved greatness. It doesn't surprise me that May's two rivals were male, the whole concept the writers were gunning for was to have this underdog female character overtake her male rivals.

Completely great message the writers gave to their fans. They sure know how to give their audience empowering messages.

I like the character-centric side stories. I find it more exciting when they're fighting to defend a gym or something than fighting for little pins of merit.

Except for the fact that all the Contests ARE character-centric stories? Sure, the main even of Contests are always the battling, but Contests are filled to the brim with character interaction and character-centric moments.

Contests feel different than Gyms for this reason. With Gyms, its just introducing the Gym leader, having a big battle, Ash gets a badge and that's that.

With Contests the coordinators are always introduced having some sort of backstory, almost always have interesting interactions with May and Dawn, and then the battles end with a feel-good message.

And as an openly rampant feminist, the sexism has irked me since the start of AG.

So let me understand, by giving female characters in the show bigger roles than they ever had before is MORE sexist than what they did before?

Why do you think the writers even revamped the show as a two-gender cast to begin with?

I also find it strange that feminists don't think Dawn dressing up like a barbie doll in every Contest is irksome, I bet had May dressed up in pretty dresses in Contests in AG, she would have had fiery hell from certain people here. So why does Dawn get away with it?

In fact, I think a lot of people would agree the shippiest season was Orange Islands, mostly because of one episode.

That Rudy episode from Orange had about the same level of shipping as the Drew/Brianna episode from Battle Frontier. Honestly I'd say Battle Frontier had more shipping than Orange, considering the writers had something between May/Drew in nearly every episode they showed up with afterward, not to mention Anabel's crush on Ash.

...and for the fact that it looks like May/Drew will actually amount to something. Pokeshipping didn't have that kind of ending, nor did it have the kind of mutual understanding.

 

[Jo-Jo]

True, but Contestshipping was obviously May's story. Drew was a love interest, but he wasn't the main character. The entire concept revolved around the heroine getting the guy, which is exactly the same stuff you see in those shoujo anime or romance novels aimed at young teen girls.

And yet, Drew was the active player in Contestshipping. May didn't even become interested (at least not obviously) until more than halfway through AG. CS was a "woman slowly won over" romance; much more "guy getting the heroine" than "heroine getting the guy".

Not saying that isn't a typical romcom plot, though. Pride and Prejudice followed it pretty closely.

But how does Pokeshipping differ? For most of the original series, Ash was unaware and uninvolved with the ship; it was all about Misty's suffering. While I disagree with most of the fanbase in that I think Ash liked her back, Misty's feelings were still undeniably given much greater screentime than his. Misty Meets Her Match was a study of her emotions. It's a different kind of plot to Contestshipping, but that doesn't mean that it was aimed at guys and Contestshipping at girls. Generally, any romance storyline is likelier to attract women than men.

I will concede that, judging from fan reaction, Contestshipping tends to appeal mainly to female fans, while Pokeshipping's more split down the middle. But to act as though female fans only became interested in the canon pairings when May was introduced is a misrepresentation.

If Dawn falls for either Kengo or Nozomi, it'll be the same thing.

How do you know? Penguinshipping's been featured in about five seconds of screentime so far. I'd guess that Kengo will be awkward and secretive about his feelings, not open and cocky like Drew.

And honestly, how are Contests not filled with...dare I say it, "Girl power?" May's entire story was based on a girl who started out knowning next to nothing and eventually achieved greatness.

We've already covered this. Why does the fact that May's female automatically mean that the contests are about - gag - "girl-power"?* Why do the genders have to matter - can't it be Character X achieving her goal, rather than Female Character X? Nobody argues that Ash's journey is a symbol of "boy power". You're assuming the writers have a political agenda with May and Dawn that they might not necessarily have. It's not as though they were going to use a male character for contests when Ash is supposed to be the star.

It doesn't surprise me that May's two rivals were male, the whole concept the writers were gunning for was to have this underdog female character overtake her male rivals.

I imagine the reason Drew was male is because the writers wanted to pair him with May.

As for Harley, if he were female, half the joke would be lost.

Do I take it, then, that Dawn having a female rival to strive to beat makes her less of a feminist icon than May?

With Contests the coordinators are always introduced having some sort of backstory, almost always have interesting interactions with May and Dawn, and then the battles end with a feel-good message.

How's that different from gym battles?

So let me understand, by giving female characters in the show bigger roles than they ever had before is MORE sexist than what they did before?

Giving a female character a big role doesn't make her non-sexist. Pie's objection is clearly with May's personality. Don't dodge the issue.

Why do you think the writers even revamped the show as a two-gender cast to begin with?

You think they did it to strike a blow for womens' rights? Not likely. They wanted to introduce contests and they couldn't use another male character who might potentially dilute Ash's hero status.

I also find it strange that feminists don't think Dawn dressing up like a barbie doll in every Contest is irksome

Right, I forgot femininity = inferior.

I bet had May dressed up in pretty dresses in Contests in AG, she would have had fiery hell from certain people here.

You keep saying that, and yet nobody made a fuss over her pretty pink princess dress in movie 8.

So why does Dawn get away with it?

She's only "getting away" with something if you assume that we would have reacted in a certain way to May doing the same thing, even though May never did that thing and thus you have no reason to believe that we ought to be responding differently to Dawn.

That Rudy episode from Orange had about the same level of shipping as the Drew/Brianna episode from Battle Frontier.

Actually, in Spontaneous Combusken, the contest was still the main storyline. The May/Drew/Brianna triangle was the B plot. In Misty Meets Her Match, Misty being torn between Ash and Rudy was the main plot, and the gym battle was the backdrop. A more valid Pokeshippy OI comparison to SC would be Naval Manoeuvres, in which Ash/Misty/Danny was the B plot.

Honestly I'd say Battle Frontier had more shipping than Orange, considering the writers had something between May/Drew in nearly every episode they showed up with afterward, not to mention Anabel's crush on Ash.

OI had two shippy gym matches, plus Pokeball Peril, plus Wherefore Art Thou Pokemon, plus the movie.

...and for the fact that it looks like May/Drew will actually amount to something. Pokeshipping didn't have that kind of ending, nor did it have the kind of mutual understanding.

Pokeshipping couldn't be ended because Ash is still on the show. Contestshipping got the resolution it did because May was leaving and her storylines had to be wrapped up.

And it's not as though 'happy ending' equals 'female oriented'. Ever seen Desperate Housewives?



* Nothing wrong with the concept of 'girl power', even if it is a watered-down version of feminism put into circulation by the Spice Girls. It's the name I can't stand. Just as annoying as "empowering". Or "patriarchy".

 

[Cybersai]

And yet, Drew was the active player in Contestshipping. May didn't even become interested (at least not obviously) until more than halfway through AG. CS was a "woman slowly won over" romance; much more "guy getting the heroine" than "heroine getting the guy".

Not saying that isn't a typical romcom plot, though. Pride and Prejudice followed it pretty closely.

Drew was the active player, but he wouldn't get anywhere if it weren't for May. The plot revolved around May changing, not Drew. Therefore she was the more important character of the relationship.

The cards were in May's hands, not Drew's.

I will concede that, judging from fan reaction, Contestshipping tends to appeal mainly to female fans, while Pokeshipping's more split down the middle. But to act as though female fans only became interested in the canon pairings when May was introduced is a misrepresentation.

Pokeshipping may have been more about Misty, but like most main character pairings in anime, they also represent the guy.

I'd argue that Robin/Starfire in TT is just as much about Robin as it is Starfire, despite the fact that the feelings were more obvious. Seriously, you know as well as anybody that most romance in fiction tends to make the female have the more obvious feelings showing than the guy. Its just the way it works.

How do you know? Penguinshipping's been featured in about five seconds of screentime so far. I'd guess that Kengo will be awkward and secretive about his feelings, not open and cocky like Drew.

Depends, but if that scene where Dawn modeling her dress for Kengo was any indication, Dawn holds the cards, not Kengo.

We've already covered this. Why does the fact that May's female automatically mean that the contests are about - gag - "girl-power"?* Why do the genders have to matter - can't it be Character X achieving her goal, rather than Female Character X? Nobody argues that Ash's journey is a symbol of "boy power". You're assuming the writers have a political agenda with May and Dawn that they might not necessarily have. It's not as though they were going to use a male character for contests when Ash is supposed to be the star.

We've covered this many times, I agree, but do you not see how the fandom reacts when we have the girl characters in a major role?

Think back in the pre-AG era. Whenever Misty had a spotlight episode, people cheered. People always wanted Misty to step out of Ash's shadow and get more spotlight. I remember when the Whirl Cup first aired in Japan, people were ecstatic to see Misty finally do something for her goal, and beat Ash even. Little did they know at the time that Misty was going to be kicked off the show permanantly after that, but that's besides the point.

The fact is since Misty rarely did anything, whenever the writers DID focus her, it was a big event. Just because May/Dawn are in constant spotlight doesn't make them less positive role models and or represent their fanbases well. And all the Contest wins the girls get are reason to cheer for them, because like Ash, they're actually achieving something.

So I'd like to ask this question that always gets avoided, what is May a focal character for? What did the writers intend to aim this character at?

I imagine the reason Drew was male is because the writers wanted to pair him with May.

As for Harley, if he were female, half the joke would be lost.

I still think, "Underdog female character proves she's better than the boys" is what they were gunning for.

Do I take it, then, that Dawn having a female rival to strive to beat makes her less of a feminist icon than May?

Well, Nozomi is rather butch. j/k

How's that different from gym battles?

I'm not arguing with you about this because you know the difference and have stated it yourself both here and on SPP several times. This is what I meant about you above, why do you always do this when an argument is more convenient for Misty's side of the fanbase rather than May's? You've championed Contests many times in terms of character interaction, and now, because I assume Pie is here, you're acting like this is all-new to you. And don't act like I don't know your posting style is different depending on whether we're on SPP or here. C'mon, what is going on here?

Giving a female character a big role doesn't make her non-sexist. Pie's objection is clearly with May's personality. Don't dodge the issue.

May's personality showed a girl with an insecurity problem overcome that obstacle and achieve greatness. God bless those writers, truly great stuff.

You think they did it to strike a blow for womens' rights? Not likely. They wanted to introduce contests and they couldn't use another male character who might potentially dilute Ash's hero status.

Y'know, somehow when the writers were writing all those character-centric episodes for May all throughout AG, I doubt they were thinking, "Shit, what section of our fanbase are we aiming her character at?"

You keep saying that, and yet nobody made a fuss over her pretty pink princess dress in movie 8.

She's only "getting away" with something if you assume that we would have reacted in a certain way to May doing the same thing, even though May never did that thing and thus you have no reason to believe that we ought to be responding differently to Dawn.

Sorry, but I call BS on this one. If all the whining about May being much more girly than Misty was any indication in the AG era, if she actually wore pretty dresses in all her Contests she would have never heard the end of it.

Use the most likely scenario, I know you're smart enough to know the answer.

Pokeshipping couldn't be ended because Ash is still on the show. Contestshipping got the resolution it did because May was leaving and her storylines had to be wrapped up.

The way they did handle it gave it no resolution either way, and at this point there's no indication they plan to go back to it.

 

[Rocketshipper]

lol, nice sig Pie.

Mostly, though, I don't see the point in the first place of treating the male and female segments of the audience like separate species, who are only capable of appreciating totally different types of plots.

*does a little golf clap* agreed, agreed ^^.

The entire concept revolved around the heroine getting the guy, which is exactly the same stuff you see in those shoujo anime or romance novels aimed at young teen girls.

You also see it in those ocasional shounen anime series with female protaganists.

Completely great message the writers gave to their fans. They sure know how to give their audience empowering messages.

Maybe you should consider the possibility that, being a guy, you aren't 100% qualified to judge what would be "empowering" to women? I know I'm not (I took a "women in film" class a few semesters ago in College, and some of the female characters I thought were "good" portrayles of girls were found to be bad by the female students of the class, as well as the teacher and the text book. So, yeah, I suck at judging how "empowering" a girl character is for girls)

With Contests the coordinators are always introduced having some sort of backstory, almost always have interesting interactions with May and Dawn, and then the battles end with a feel-good message.

The writers have been doing (or trying to do) this with all the gym leaders since mid Johto. We almost always have at least one introduction episode for the leaders before getting to the big battle. And most contest opponents don't show up mutliple times (except the rivals of course), just like the gym leaders.

Edit: grrr. looks like two posts were made while I was writing mine. I hate it when that happens.

 

[Jo-Jo]

Drew was the active player, but he wouldn't get anywhere if it weren't for May. The plot revolved around May changing, not Drew. Therefore she was the more important character of the relationship.

The cards were in May's hands, not Drew's.

May was the more important character in the relationship because she was the more important character in the show.

Drew was the character who was mainly responsible for moving the story along. May's role was to be won over. They made a shift towards a more equal state in the Battle Frontier.

Also, May was not the one who had to change. She had to observe the softening of Drew's character and re-evaluate her feelings towards him.

My point is not that Misty had more of a romantic role than May, that Misty was more active in her romance than May (neither Ash nor Misty made any steps towards a Pokeshippy relationship; both of them spent the entire plotline denying their feelings), or that Contestshipping is not a heavily female-oriented pairing. But it is plain wrong to make out that only AG introduced 'girly' romance arcs. Mainly because romance arcs tend to be pretty 'girly' regardless of how they play out, unless we're talking a James Bond thing that's mostly about hot women wearing very little clothes.

Pokeshipping started out as a ship where both Ash and Misty took turns to avoid admitting their feelings. It was give and take, with both characters being equally stubborn. No gender bias here, unless you want to propose that the emphasis on comedy over romance makes the ship more palatable to boys in the audience.

Starting from the second movie, there was a drastic shift in the dynamic, and the plotline became all about Misty suffering with her hidden feelings. Ash had no participation. I can't see this as a male-oriented storyline even when I squint. Female character angsting about romance = about as shoujo as you can get. And very heavy on the female-audience-identification angle, besides.

Pokeshipping may have been more about Misty, but like most main character pairings in anime, they also represent the guy.

Then tell me, when did Ash's side of the story ever overshadow Misty's in Pokeshipping?

I'd argue that Robin/Starfire in TT is just as much about Robin as it is Starfire, despite the fact that the feelings were more obvious.

Agreed. So? If you watch a romcom, the hero and heroine usually have equal or close-to-equal status, and just as much attention will be spent on the guy's feelings as the girl's. That's how the genre works.

Seriously, you know as well as anybody that most romance in fiction tends to make the female have the more obvious feelings showing than the guy. Its just the way it works.

Wha???? Going just by the films/shows I have watched recently, I can give you several pairings where the guy's feelings are more obvious. Knox/Chris, 'Dead Poet's Society'; House/Cuddy and Chase/Cameron, 'House'; Carlos/Gabby, 'Desperate Housewives'; J.D./Elliot, 'Scrubs'. The girls are the ones wearing their hearts on their sleeves in the following pairings: Martha/Doctor, 'Dr. Who'; Cameron/House, 'House' and Edie/Carlos, 'Desperate Housewives'. And it's equal for Will/Elizabeth, 'Pirates of the Caribbean 3'.

Those are the examples I've seen recently; there are a great many more pairings where the guy has to pursue the initially unwilling girl. Davis/Kari, Takato/Jeri and J.P./Zoe, 'Digimon'; Lizzie/Darcy, 'Pride and Prejudice'... and Contestshipping, of course!

Depends, but if that scene where Dawn modeling her dress for Kengo was any indication, Dawn holds the cards, not Kengo.

OK. But there's an entire season left to go and thus far very little material to go on. It's too early to say how the dynamic will pan out.

We've covered this many times, I agree, but do you not see how the fandom reacts when we have the girl characters in a major role?

Think back in the pre-AG era. Whenever Misty had a spotlight episode, people cheered. People always wanted Misty to step out of Ash's shadow and get more spotlight. ... The fact is since Misty rarely did anything, whenever the writers DID focus her, it was a big event.

...Yes, that's because she's a sidekick and didn't get to do stuff all that often, especially in Johto, home of the endless fillers. You're back to arguing that May is a better female character just because she's got a bigger role. We've already addressed why this is a faulty premise.

Just because May/Dawn are in constant spotlight doesn't make them less positive role models and or represent their fanbases well.

Nobody's said that May or Dawn's spotlight makes them less able to represent the female fanbase. You're the only one obsessing over May's importance and whether she's empowering/relatable, not to mention insisting that she has to be taken as an icon of womanly strength in the first place. I would very quickly bore of a show if I were forced to see all the protagonists as Role Models. I'm not six years old.

This is silly, anyway, as the lead females in shoujo anime and manga all come with different personalities and are responded to by female fans in completely different ways. Trying to force us to see May a certain way isn't going to accomplish the objective of arguing that AG is more shoujo. Plenty of shoujo heroines can be seen as a bit drippy and pathetic, so why bother changing anyone's mind?

And all the Contest wins the girls get are reason to cheer for them, because like Ash, they're actually achieving something.

Whooo for them, but it's just as ridiculous to claim that only girls can appreciate May and Dawn's victories as it is to claim that only boys can appreciate Ash's. Once again, these characters are people, not masculine/feminine symbols to be worshipped by those of the right gender.

So I'd like to ask this question that always gets avoided, what is May a focal character for? What did the writers intend to aim this character at?

She's a focal character for anyone who likes her, and anyone who's interested in the contests. If the people who like her end up being mostly girls, then that shows which demographic she appeals to most. But for some reason her fanbase is a fair amount more male-dominated than Misty's, which is the question that you always seem to avoid answering.

I still think, "Underdog female character proves she's better than the boys" is what they were gunning for.

I suppose Dawn/Nozomi is going to be "underdog female characters proves she's better than the... other girls".

Drew was still stronger than May at the end of the Battle Frontier.

I'm not arguing with you about this because you know the difference and have stated it yourself both here and on SPP several times.

No. I have always said that the contests are character oriented. You are saying, apparently, that the gyms aren't in any way, and furthermore that the show never has been prior to AG. In the process you generalised wildly about the types of plots used in the contests and claimed them as clearly shoujo when lots of them can be applied just as easily to the gyms.

This is what I meant about you above, why do you always do this when an argument is more convenient for Misty's side of the fanbase rather than May's? You've championed Contests many times in terms of character interaction, and now, because I assume Pie is here, you're acting like this is all-new to you. And don't act like I don't know your posting style is different depending on whether we're on SPP or here. C'mon, what is going on here?

I'm not going to play. Go away.

May's personality showed a girl with an insecurity problem overcome that obstacle and achieve greatness. God bless those writers, truly great stuff.

Yeah, that kind of thing is so very original. Not generic in the slightest. Why, it bears no resemblance whatsoever to Ash's journey or the plights of a billion filler characters.

Y'know, somehow when the writers were writing all those character-centric episodes for May all throughout AG, I doubt they were thinking, "Shit, what section of our fanbase are we aiming her character at?"

I agree! For a different reason than the one you're thinking of, though, I suspect.

Sorry, but I call BS on this one. If all the whining about May being much more girly than Misty was any indication in the AG era, if she actually wore pretty dresses in all her Contests she would have never heard the end of it.

Sure, why use actual evidence when you can assume?

The complaints I've seen voiced about May's girliness have largely stemmed from her being meek and apathetic. Nothing to do with her fashion sense. Dawn is a great deal tougher and is on a par with Ash in the bull-headedness stakes. Which I've pointed out to you several times.

Use the most likely scenario, I know you're smart enough to know the answer.

Gee, thanks, I feel so not-condescended to.

The way they did handle it gave it no resolution either way, and at this point there's no indication they plan to go back to it.

Big whoop. Doesn't identify it as a plotline for one gender or the other.

Maybe you should consider the possibility that, being a guy, you aren't 100% qualified to judge what would be "empowering" to women?

*wants to have your babies, except that it will only make me a pathetic maternal figure like that loser Misty*

I know I'm not (I took a "women in film" class a few semesters ago in College, and some of the female characters I thought were "good" portrayles of girls were found to be bad by the female students of the class, as well as the teacher and the text book. So, yeah, I suck at judging how "empowering" a girl character is for girls)

^^ I wouldn't worry. Feminist criticism isn't without its flaws - mainly that you start to look at every female character as either a potential feminist or sexist symbol, rather than as a person who's allowed to have weaknesses. For that matter, adopting any particular critical position - Marxism, post-modernism (I still haven't worked out what that is...), whatever - always results in tunnel vision.

 

[Ino-Chan]

I think the D/P Contests lean toward a more shoujo side, or at least a more visible one.

In AG you saw a girl (May) run on stage and let her Pokemon out, do appeals and do battle. For the most part though, the shoujo-ness came from the character interaction. In D/P, you see Dawn wearing pretty dresses and doing her hair, and then when she lets her Pokemon out there are sparkles and clovers and hearts etc. due to the stickers on the Pokeballs.

I'm just wondering, but do girls like the fact that the writers have dolled up Contests to make them more feminine than the AG ones? All the dresses and clovers/hearts and stuff can't be said to be anything *but* girly.

I know Dawn's dresses are cool for fanservice and all, but seeing a girl battle in a dress certainly gives a different vibe than just watching a girl battle in her normal clothes.

I'd say that's why D/P's Contests can lead more toward relationships, as for some reason, romance is always a big part of anime (and television in general) oriented toward girls. Do you guys think this is a good stereotype?



You should ask Jo-Jo, she knows why.

This is all true.

 

[Rocketshipper]

The cards were in May's hands, not Drew's.

I'm a little afraid to ask (due to the lenght of the response it might generate) but I would like to hear you elaborate on this a little, Scott. Because it seemed to me, at least when we are talking about just Contestshipping, that Drew would be the one with the "advantage".

So I'd like to ask this question that always gets avoided, what is May a focal character for? What did the writers intend to aim this character at?

I think you're just asking the question over and over because were not giving you the answer you want ^^. I know that I already answered it at least once. I think she's aimed at boys, the primary audience of Pokemon in the first place.

Also, May was not the one who had to change. She had to observe the softening of Drew's character and re-evaluate her feelings towards him.

Actually, that sounds like changing to me, if only a little bit.

J.P./Zoe, 'Digimon'

JUNZUMI!!!!!!!!! *goes into fan mode and loses mind for several minutes*. ok...back

I still think, "Underdog female character proves she's better than the boys" is what they were gunning for.

Maybe it's more like "Underdog character proves she's good". Why does everything have to be turned into "battle of the sexes"?

 

[Jo-Jo]

Actually, that sounds like changing to me, if only a little bit.

Mmmm... point. It wasn't May as a character who changed, though, it was May's opinion of Drew, which in turn was precipitated by Drew changing as a character. Although arguably Drew never actually changed, he just revealed different sides to himself... in which case, neither character changed, and the whole arc was all about re-evaluation. lol, I dunno.

 

[Cybersai]

I'm a little afraid to ask (due to the lenght of the response it might generate) but I would like to hear you elaborate on this a little, Scott. Because it seemed to me, at least when we are talking about just Contestshipping, that Drew would be the one with the "advantage".

Drew has pretty much advanced all he could at this point, now its up to May to return the favor.

One thing about Drew that's noticeable is he'll hit on her as openly as possible, but when other people start noticing it, he gets embarrassed. In the Brianna episode everyone thought he sent the rose to May by letter, and Drew blushes. Even Roselia makes fun of him in a later scene. Lastly, at the Kanto GF Drew apparently had to give the rose to Solidad to hand to May, rather than just give it to her himself like he used to.

If anything, now its May's turn, or else Drew would have probably moved on to another girl. May pretty much says where or how any further development their relationship gets now, Drew has pretty much flirted all he can, but he needs a response or else the ship might as well stop there. Bottom line is Drew is not going to get into May's shorts unless she lets him, but she's seemingly more open to him than she ever was before.

The problem is for canon that most people doubt Drew will ever get another appearance, so the most Contestshippers can hope for is that May makes a mention of him during her next appearance, because otherwise I doubt the ship will be touched on. I know this will probably make some people here very depressed, but I very much doubt we'll see either of May's rivals in the show ever again unless she gets focused on in Johto, but that doesn't seem to be happening.