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Citations, Bulbapedia Policy, and our position in the fan community

あら、あたしと同じ！ww

this computer doesn't type in Japanese I am literally copy-pasting from WWWJDIC. so tedious D8



EDIT BY ARCHAIC: There's some known errors on vB3 with Japanese text in quotes, had to remove your quote of me to get the thread working properly.
 
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I just with that vB3 properly supported the Japanese I type in using the Microsoft IME. I hate it constantly showing me those ? diamonds. Now if only I could figure out how to get the Google IME to work properly, that might be better.
 
Long story short. Before I brought back Bulba, I worked for Serebii as his right hand man for about a year. We were actually fairly good friends then. However, I did have issues with his management style, and when I was offered the opportunity to bring back Bulba during a long period of downtime on Serebii's part, I jumped at the opportunity. Serebii took that as a betrayal, started laying baseless accusations against me over the downtime, and the rest is history.
 
Archaic said:
Long story short. Before I brought back Bulba, I worked for Serebii as his right hand man for about a year. We were actually fairly good friends then. However, I did have issues with his management style, and when I was offered the opportunity to bring back Bulba during a long period of downtime on Serebii's part, I jumped at the opportunity. Serebii took that as a betrayal, started laying baseless accusations against me over the downtime, and the rest is history.
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Long story short, he got butthurt over you going back to your own 'site.
 
Wow. Fandumb at it's worst. So, he's still arguing with you because of this.

Now I must quote the novel Geek Fight.

"I look at the scene before me and wonder what could possibly bring a man to such a point in his life, where dressed in an absurd costume he comes to blows with another man in an equally absurd costume over an absurd manner of absolutely no importance."

Substitute costume for website and you have this argument.
 
Erm no, that's not why I'm arguing with him over this. I'm arguing with him over this because my site is being used as a reference without citation. There is no big picture to this. I got over that issue with Liam years ago.
 
We're still waiting for this evidence that you are basking in, yet remains inexistent.
 
I suggest you consult a post Liam made on Page 3 which, funnily enough, contained the evidence.
 
Virtual-Z said:
We're still waiting for this evidence that you are basking in, yet remains inexistent.
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you idiot. check ALL the pages next time.

but anyway, other than the images, i dont see anything that directly says (other than that one person) that all of the information cited was unmistakeably taken from your site.
 
Here's my thing. I think my opinion carries weight, so I think it's necessary for me to share it.

First off, I didn't read that entire longass chat.

Unless something is blatantly copied and pasted from Serebii with only a few changes, there's no case for a citation to be included. Reason being that virtually everything on Serebii, with the exception of some news articles, is also available somewhere else on the internet. Hence, no citation. We could just as easily have gotten the information somewhere else. Who's to say we didn't?

WPM brought up a similar issue with me awhile ago, regarding a Bulbanews story. He wanted a citation, and I gave him it. BECAUSE. The information that was included in the news articles was found exclusively on the 'Beach at the time. Its inclusion in a Bulbanews articles was clearly a result of it being on the 'Beach. Hence, citation.

See my point?
 
Politoed666 said:
Here's my thing. I think my opinion carries weight, so I think it's necessary for me to share it.

First off, I didn't read that entire longass chat.

Unless something is blatantly copied and pasted from Serebii with only a few changes, there's no case for a citation to be included. Reason being that virtually everything on Serebii, with the exception of some news articles, is also available somewhere else on the internet. Hence, no citation. We could just as easily have gotten the information somewhere else. Who's to say we didn't?

WPM brought up a similar issue with me awhile ago, regarding a Bulbanews story. He wanted a citation, and I gave him it. BECAUSE. The information that was included in the news articles was found exclusively on the 'Beach at the time. Its inclusion in a Bulbanews articles was clearly a result of it being on the 'Beach. Hence, citation.

See my point?
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You have a great logic. However, the fact that I'm getting at isn't that I want citation for everything that's on my site. The details were added right after I added them and for almost all instances, them being on my site were the first instances of a lot of these things being on the Internet. Then, within hours of me adding it to the site, it came on Bulbapedia. That is my gripe here. I can see it happening again this Autumn.
 
Unfortunately, so long after the fact there's no way for us to verify such claims. Someone might have seen the information on your site and gone, "Hey, that's not on Bulbapedia and it should be!", someone might have seen the information on your site and gone "MUAHAHA I MUST SPITE SEREBII AND PUT THIS ON BULBAPEDIA", or someone might have gathered the information independently of your site. We have no way to know this.
 
Serebii said:
Then, within hours of me adding it to the site, it came on Bulbapedia.
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Hi, I'm not sure if you don't know this by now but Serebii and Bulbapedia aren't the only Pokemon news sites on the internet. A site doesn't even have to be a Pokemon news site to report Pokemon news, it can be your average anime or game site. Now with that said, do you really think that Bulbapedia couldn't have acquired the same/similar information you put up on your site, from their own private source or from some other site? You said within hours...information these days spreads within seconds...I hope you see the flaw in what you've just said.
 
There's that, too. If Serebii got the information, why couldn't someone else have gotten the same information at around the same time?
 
I'm sure that there have been instances where information has been put on BulbaNews first, and then appears on Serebii.net after the fact. In fact, I can think of quite a few times where that has happened (mostly related to episode titles, but also things such as card deck releases and some game reports). Strange, but I don't see Serebii citing BulbaNews when the information appears on his website afterwards.
 
Yeah, in fact I see no mention of Bulbanews having reported the new Pokemon RPG in his site update from today even though we got it up before he did. By his own logic, shouldn't he cite us?
 
Can I raise a motion to cease debate and move to previous questioning? Because this is stupid that we're arguing over the right to information about a video game.
 
As much as I hate Joe, I have to admit I've seen Bulbapedia's users take stuff he has posted without any bit of credit, sometimes right after he posts a story. No matter if you're a wiki or website, if you use the information someone has spent so much time compiling, you must credit their efforts, especially when no one else has gone out of their way to discover the info or put it together. This is grade school basics. Just because you're a wiki does not mean you are above it all.

For example, I just posted the new HGSS set scans on my website before the prereleases, and I have always done so for the past few years. No other website or person has access to the early information that I do, so the news is in fact exclusive to me. And I'm now being told by Nate that Bulbapedia's page, which has copied the set list and information, is not allowed to credit my news story? Who the heck do you guys think you are, lol? Don't use my exclusive information if you're not going to provide proper credit. Not only that, but if anyone involved in the TCG community sees that you have my information as if you discovered it yourself, some users may think that Bulbapedia stole the information. I realize there's credit in the "edit" section, but who's going to check that, and how is that a repayment for my work? By me allowing you to use my content so that you can advance your wiki, I'm expecting a "payment" in return in the form of a link where other people can check out whatever else I have. That's just common courtesy and common sense. I really don't see it any other way, especially since this form of credit has been established on the internet since its inception. If you're not going to be courteous, then don't use my content and go find your own sources yourself. It's as simple as that.

EDIT: I'd also like to mention that I'm on good terms with Bulbapedia, Archaic, TTE, and other peeps here and that I'm not trying to be evil or anything.

(1:48:32 PM) Serebii Joe: I am trying to distance myself from that crap after some of the stuff with WPM the last two years
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Just you remember who distanced who from the other first.
 
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And where do you propose we put the credit? We generally don't do references, and putting it after each sentence would be awkward. How long should the credit stay up? Indefinitely? But what if a BP user gets hold of the same information themselves? Then would the credit be removed since the information was being provided straight from the source?

Finally, if we did have measures in place for crediting, do you really think the users who yoink information are likely to credit at all? If they don't, then what? Should an admin add the credit? What if other people have access to the source material, and there's no proof the information was taken from your site?

What if someone else who has access to the source material decides to edit the article and changes the wording that the "thief" put in, adding information directly from the source but leaving some of the wording the same because there's really nothing to change? Then would credit be required?
 
Please note: The thread is from 14 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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