Kanto Gym Battles; Ash wasn't THAT bad was he?

[skyline02]

The only real wins he got were against Lt. Surge, Erika, Koga and Blaine with the Lt. Surge rematch and Blaine fight pretty much being some of his best battles.

Ash has been a joke during every saga in terms of gym battles until Sinnoh. There was always something stupid that happened, heck even in Sinnoh looking back.

 

[garrison-san]

The only real wins he got were against Lt. Surge, Erika, Koga and Blaine with the Lt. Surge rematch and Blaine fight pretty much being some of his best battles.

Definitely not Erika, unless you're referring specifically to the Charmander vs. Weepinbell portion of their battle.

 

[Gurk]

Yes, he was bad and the gym battles were bad. You might say that it's given that he was bad because he was a novice. But so was Trip, and hell, even Bianca. But it doesn't matter, since Ash is the main character, and he'll win stuff even if he was the dumbest trainer out there.

 

[PKMN Master Red]

Back in the Kanto days Ash was fucking awful! Like half of the badges he got he didn't really beat the Gym Leaders for. However, as the anime progressed he's gotten A LOT better.

 

[Caseydia]

Ash has been a joke during every saga in terms of gym battles until Sinnoh. There was always something stupid that happened, heck even in Sinnoh looking back.

Huh? I'm watching some Hoenn gym battles right now, like the Winona battle and he did a very good job.

Let's see:

Roxanne's gym- Huge improvement from Brock's gym. Not to mention he won instead of losing unlike against Roark.

Brawley's gym brought out Ash's personality from what it was from the pas t few episodes. Most don't like it but I liked his rematch. This gym battle made him train his pokemon more from there on out.

Not to mention some in Johto were pretty good as well like Azalea, Ecruteak, Cinawood, Olivine(Which is my favorite) and the Mahoghany gyms.

I also liked the match with Ash and Rudy, so there were a lot of gyms that was good and was way better than back in OS. They were better written, better planned and were finished.

 

[Duque]

Misty didn't influenced Pikachu. She didn't said anything about Ash choice of pokemon with Pikachu himself choosing not to battle against her with excuse of being his friend. Misty only when Pikachu already made decision thanked being happy of not confronting electric type. But she in no way influenced Ash pokemon.

Not directly, but pikachu wasn't that loyal to Ash by the time and Misty's friendship with pikachu helped her for sure at least two times against Ash. If you consider "The Totodile Duel" as a unofficial gym rematch, Misty used pikachu's baby-sitter status against it, deliberately sending togepi. It isn't "against the rules" or something like that (like bulbasaur tickling psyduck), but Misty used an emotional advantage in her favor, this time, purposely.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Not directly, but pikachu wasn't that loyal to Ash by the time and Misty's friendship with pikachu helped her for sure at least two times against Ash. If you consider "The Totodile Duel" as a unofficial gym rematch, Misty used pikachu's baby-sitter status against it, deliberately sending togepi. It isn't "against the rules" or something like that (like bulbasaur tickling psyduck), but Misty used an emotional advantage in her favor, this time, purposely.

I wont say anything about Totodile match because yes Misty knew that Pikachu would had hard time in harming Togepi after who he always tended to look after being like "older brother". Though that can be pertained to Misty tactic in how to get rid of main threat for her team.

However as far as Cerulean battle goes i rewatched episode in question and Misty didn't said anything nor left any kind of influence on Pikachu before battle started, or during time when Ash tried to send it into battle. In fact when Ash tried to send Pikachu he firmly refused it with Misty not having anything to say about choice of pokemon nor cared who he would use against her.

Only after Pikachu already made decision not wanting to battle with Ash being about to send other pokemon, Misty thanked being happy of not having to deal with electric type.

It would be influence if Misty tried to play on friendship card or said anything about Pikachu before battle or during time when Ash prepared to send it. But since she didn't only commenting on Pikachu decision when Ash already accepted that Pikachu wont battle preparing to send different pokemon it was hardly something which i would classify as leverage of any sort.

 

[garrison-san]

Pikachu's refusal to battle Misty was, blatantly, just a device on the part of the writers to make the battle more of a challenge for Ash. It doesn't take a lot of reading in between the lines. Whereas with Brock, Ash had been at a crippling disadvantage, with Misty the exact opposite was true - had he used Pikachu, then victory would have come just a little too easily. Which would have been harmful to the episode, tension-wise, so of course Pikachu had to be supplied with an excuse not to battle.

I don't recall Pikachu ever having any qualms with the whole concept of battling Ash's friends ever again, Misty included.

 

[Caseydia]

I don't see how Pikachu not battling in Misty's gym have anything to do with the battle sucking or not. I liked the battle actually. I just didn't like that it wasn't finished or that Misty's sister gave the badge without finishing the match. That had little to do with being Pikachu's fault.

 

[MarshiyanMisutaa]

I don't recall Pikachu ever having any qualms with the whole concept of battling Ash's friends ever again, Misty included.

She didn't battle with her Togepi.

 

[garrison-san]

I don't recall Pikachu ever having any qualms with the whole concept of battling Ash's friends ever again, Misty included.

She didn't battle with her Togepi.

He couldn't bring himself to beat up an infant. But he was perfectly down with the idea of battling Misty.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Pikachu's refusal to battle Misty was, blatantly, just a device on the part of the writers to make the battle more of a challenge for Ash. It doesn't take a lot of reading in between the lines. Whereas with Brock, Ash had been at a crippling disadvantage, with Misty the exact opposite was true - had he used Pikachu, then victory would have come just a little too easily. Which would have been harmful to the episode, tension-wise, so of course Pikachu had to be supplied with an excuse not to battle.

I don't recall Pikachu ever having any qualms with the whole concept of battling Ash's friends ever again, Misty included.

That definitely was the case. Pikachu would have defeated Misty's Water Pokemon without too much trouble, which would make the battle shorter and lacking on tension. Plus, having Pikachu win two badges in a row for Ash, especially his first two badges, might have been a bit too much.

 

[Master Cyrus]

IMO the first 2 gyms should be easy for anyone to beat. There wasn't anything wrong with pikachu sweeping misty or have her starmie rapid spin the water or something to deflect it for more challenge.

 

[Hidden Mew]

IMO the first 2 gyms should be easy for anyone to beat. There wasn't anything wrong with pikachu sweeping misty or have her starmie rapid spin the water or something to deflect it for more challenge.

Pikachu sweeping Misty would have made the battle pretty boring and too one-sided. It might have been better than the actual match that we got though. It wouldn't make for good tension and extending a battle for one episode if Ash had an easy time against a Gym Leader, especially in Kanto where he was a complete rookie.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Pikachu's refusal to battle Misty was, blatantly, just a device on the part of the writers to make the battle more of a challenge for Ash. It doesn't take a lot of reading in between the lines. Whereas with Brock, Ash had been at a crippling disadvantage, with Misty the exact opposite was true - had he used Pikachu, then victory would have come just a little too easily. Which would have been harmful to the episode, tension-wise, so of course Pikachu had to be supplied with an excuse not to battle.

I don't recall Pikachu ever having any qualms with the whole concept of battling Ash's friends ever again, Misty included.

True, though arguably Pikachu always seemed to me to have strongest bond with Misty out of all travel companions not named Ash. Not talking just about refusing to battle Misty in Cerulean or harming her Togepi, but also about way he reacted about her. Such as showing sadness when she was separated from group, looking after Togepi the most, showing to have lot of thrust letting Misty to use him in battle(Princess festival or "For Crying Out Loud" comes to mind". Or in his eagerness when Misty was showed through lure in BF or when appearing at Pallet house jumping happily in her arms. And vice versa with Misty always making sure to heal him first when injured, often hugging him and cuddling etc. Such affection i can't recall happening with other girl companions.

It could mean nothing but to me it seemed like there existed good deal of care and friendship through series between them which could be one of reasons why Pikachu was hesitant over battling Misty in same episode.

Either way i agree how Pikachu being used against Misty would likely make whole battle too one sided and kinda boring. Because at that stage and judging by Misty reactions insinuates how she had no real strategy or effective defense tactic to overcome huge advantage electric type has over water pokemon. Which could have been factor to Pikachu ending excluded from that battle. Though partially his refusal could also be annotated to fact of there still not being established strong level of mutual understanding and loyalty between him and his trainer as few episodes prior to that showed, and as such something like care for friends managed to outweigh obedience to Ash commands.

On side note now that i think about it perhaps battle vs Sabrina was most obvious blatant example of writers shamelessly using plot armor to his advantage, no matter how much contrived and apocryphal it may look like. There wasn't any real battle in rematch, nor some heroic act done from Ash side which would grant him right to earn badge from "compassionate" reasons. Instead they just played on card of comedy and pranks done from Haunter side turning whole battle against one of strongest gym leaders in complete joke. Considering how skill level and relatively weal assortment among pokemon team Ash commanded at that point there was no real way for him to defeat her psychic pokemon without making it look extremely forced and badly written.

That was for me worst worst way Ash won badge in Kanto, but in whole history of his journeys as well.

 

[The REAL Gary oak]

Il keep my answer short n sweet. Ash got his badges through helping out in unfortunate events, impersanating a girl at a point, n luck. Other then his charizaird n pigeot,his pokemon are not evolved, thus not strong. Even if they didn't want ti evolve, it was because they were to afraid of what there newfound powers would be. Ash hasn't trained them THAT much like wed expect from a pokemon master, so it would be hard to actually win a gym battle. He's just another youngster joey!!!!

 

[Palamon]

...................

What? No. He was just inexperienced because he had never battled a Gym Leader before. He wasn't "bad" as you put it.

 

[Antiyonder]

Yeah I've definitely found it harder to defend the pity badge thing more and more as time went on.

It's like it was done on principle of him being the underdog who won because of a pure heart and luck, rather than it being necessary.

Brock, because it was his first Gym Battle and he was outclassed. Sabrina albeit more for meta reasons as Psychic types were gamebreakers back in the day and having an overleveled Pokémon was the best bet at stomping them

But even with Pikachu refusing to fight Misty, Ash was definitely going to win legitimately had he not been interrupted.* I mean this was still early on before any formula (i.e. Team Rocket has to be inserted into episodes and conflicts even at the last hour), so there was really no reason to structure the episode to prevent the legit win in favor of a technicality other than again principles mentioned above, or they wanted to keep the tension between Ash and Misty for a while and giving him a sure victory would have meant that she wouldn't be able to hold the Cascade Badge over him.

The Rainbow Badge also I can't see why it had to be handle as a pity badge. Erika's no slouch, but her Pokémon aren't necessarily up there with Onix or say Kadabra, plus Ash had more type advantages to exploit like Pidgeotto being a flyer, plus it could blow the Gloom stench away easily. Not really something implausible for him to consider at that point in the show.

*This is presuming of course that Misty recalling Staryu counted as a loss for her, since some matches would treat a recall as invalidating use of said Pokémon.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

I think the bigger issue is the Pokemon League Inspection agency is incompetent.

 

[Antiyonder]

My point was these badges feel off because it seems like the writers noticed that Ash/Satoshi was coming close to a indisputable win and was like "Ok, we need to come up with a technicality victory".