Gold and Silver DS: Discussion, Debate, Wishlists

[Mitchman]

No you know what I would love for a pre order gift? The games them selves but with special cartridges. Of course I will surely get them as we get everything as normal things here. I mean the Giratina Origin figure came here from the states with a large shipment of platinum. Major retailers selling imported platinum goodies. yep. So I would love that to happen. Or maybe for pre order gifts something else. Ideas?

 

[Silktree]

Emerald shows this well as does the extra stuff in Platinum. And just because you don't want crystal to be remade, there is nothing to say if there is a remake, it won't.

I want it to be remade through GSDS given how easy that would be to pull off. If it didn't happen, I would dread the possibility that it might not happen at all. I am not really concerned with the question of which games will follow GSDS, although I do want a Wii RPG game serving as the sequel of Colosseum and XD.

I think at the time the reason Blue was not remade into Water Blue, like Red and Green were Fire Red and Leaf Green, was because there was not enough features to warrant a third game remake, it be too similar to the other two games.

There was ample room to make it different to FireRed and LeafGreen - particularly in terms of Mewtwo and Mr. Fuji's storyline which was left undeveloped, but also in terms of the unused data in the GBA versions that indicated the presence of additional Sevii Islands, as well as Game Freak's plans for advanced battle facilities unlike the Battle Frontier. Furthermore, the DS' GBA functionality could have been used for Wi-Fi Mystery Gift, which would have been a better use of the GBA-DS interaction than the one included in the original Mystery Dungeon games. The third game would have been released around Red and Green's tenth anniversary instead of Ranger, and would have later been used for the movie promotion as a storage space for the Manaphy egg. If that had been done, Movie 9 would have had a much better chance of being successful.

There is no real point to discussing a game that was not meant to be, but you're wrong if you think FireRed and LeafGreen sealed the deal. It would appear that Game Freak made a decision to focus their attention on Diamond and Pearl, which were announced right after Emerald. During the two years between game releases, Game Freak released a non-Pokémon game in Drill Dozer, whereas the Pokémon Company relied on other developers for spin-off Pokémon games released for the DS. It is too early to tell what will happen after GSDS, but I suspect that history will repeat itself and that Game Freak will opt to move onto a new generation rather than release a third game. I wouldn't mind that at all as long as GSDS had the sufficient means to tide players over for two years until a new generation, including but not limited to whatever features a Crystal remake could have.

Yes, GSC were big at the time, but remember, not everyone who played those games then is going to be still playing pokemon games now, yes, some are, but many won't be as they will have gone out with the fad when it left. There will be a new audience too.

Platinum sold as much as it did in the first week, because many people had already played diamond/pearl and wanted the platinum game because of its new features, it might be the same the a remake, but its going to be so long between the originals and the remake, might be hard to do it with this, still they will do well if remade.

On the contrary, the fact that they will be new to most players is beneficial towards increasing game sales. I don't know about you, but a change of scenery is always better than more of the same, and as it happens, Johto is an unfamiliar territory as far as the target audience is concerned. The fact that the majority of older players haven't played the now-obsolete games in years, is also going to prove useful.

Having said that, prolonging the remakes' lifetime so that they have two years to themselves alongside possible Wii games, is a different story. It would necessitate a slew of new content compared both to the original games and the current DS versions.

 

[Zeta]

As you may know, the games were supposed to feature a different set of new Pokémon (including different starters, although Chikorita was more or less always planned to be included

I'm not sure how different I'd consider Cyndaquil to be from the fiery hamster that was the original starter. It seems more like a makeover than a total reworking of the idea, especially since Quilava and Typhlosion would potentially fit as the evolutions for either of the designs. However, I don't know what the plans were for the original water-type starter.

 

[Mr. Pokemon]

I don't think there needs to be a remake of Crystal. It's really unnecessary. Game Freak already has the bulk of the remakes done. The plot, the characters, the Pokemon... they just need to re-build all the assets, really. Maybe include some new areas. But why would they limit themselves to "dumb down" the GS remakes, just so they can remake Crystal later? They could just as easily add Crystal-exclusive features into GS remakes. It's not like Crystal doesn't exist either. It saves time and money. (I don't care that making a third remake would make more money. Nintendo has plenty already.) Besides, Yellow wasn't remade. Why would they remake Crystal?

May I ask why we are discussing such little details as changing the intro movie? Really? Who cares? Most of us skip it anyways. Who cares that the focus is mostly on Kanto Pokemon. (But I guess if you wanted to put Pichu in it, it could be the NEP.)

 

[H-con]

If you were to see the intro movie of Gold/Silver, you'd see an abundance of gen I pokemon. Not too good to profile the new gen II Pokemon. I do skip the intro, but I found Crystals intro quite interesting, at least more than Gold and Silver's intro.

No one said remaking Crystal was the most logical thing to do. But implementing Crystals changes is certainly a good way to improve the games.

 

[Shinx3000]

I don't think there needs to be a remake of Crystal. It's really unnecessary. Game Freak already has the bulk of the remakes done. The plot, the characters, the Pokemon... they just need to re-build all the assets, really. Maybe include some new areas. But why would they limit themselves to "dumb down" the GS remakes, just so they can remake Crystal later? They could just as easily add Crystal-exclusive features into GS remakes. It's not like Crystal doesn't exist either. It saves time and money. (I don't care that making a third remake would make more money. Nintendo has plenty already.) Besides, Yellow wasn't remade. Why would they remake Crystal?

But why make GS at all then if we go by "Nintendo has enough money already"? and I never suggested dumbing down GS if Crystal were remade, just add extra features not in the GS remake. There is a reason for a third game as many know.

Yellow was just too little of a difference to warrant a remake. Just giving the character a pikachu instead of a starter would not do too much. Yes it makes Brocks gym a little harder and yellow game and the pikachu mini game was Ash and Pikachu. Remember blue was going to be remade, but stopped.

If there was a battle frontier in a remake, it would most likely be in a third game. If it was not going to be that way, why did we have to wait until Platinum for one when we could have had one in D/P right off the bat because Emerald had one? Other features such as Vs seeker and swarming pokemon stayed, so why not that until the third game?

On the contrary, the fact that they will be new to most players is beneficial towards increasing game sales. I don't know about you, but a change of scenery is always better than more of the same, and as it happens, Johto is an unfamiliar territory as far as the target audience is concerned. The fact that the majority of older players haven't played the now-obsolete games in years, is also going to prove useful.

I don't think I have seen Johto in a long time and I agree it would be nice to see it again, and the people who have played the games will want to see how it looks now with upgraded graphics and stuff for DS. Like how the updated graphics in FR/LG, the vs seeker and Sevii were added to those remakes.

 

[Mitchman]

Uh oh it seems Unown Lord is going Thunder Yellow on us.

 

[Zeta]

If there was a battle frontier in a remake, it would most likely be in a third game. If it was not going to be that way, why did we have to wait until Platinum for one when we could have had one in D/P right off the bat because Emerald had one? Other features such as Vs seeker and swarming pokemon stayed, so why not that until the third game?

I don't think we'll have time for Crystal. If they put off another year or two to add to Crystal, that means we won't see Generation V for 3 more years, and I don't think the franchise can last another three years on remakes alone.

 

[H-con]

Yes, waiting three years with only GS won't make sense. I still think they should add a Battle Frontier in the remakes, but I doubt they'll actually add it, making less reason to buy Platinum (though most probably have bought Platinum by then.)

In my opinion, gen V can perhaps wait 2 years, not much longer.

 

[Shinx3000]

I don't think we'll have time for Crystal. If they put off another year or two to add to Crystal, that means we won't see Generation V for 3 more years, and I don't think the franchise can last another three years on remakes alone.

Guessing that makes perfect sense. If Gen V is coming at somepoint, it can't be held off too long for the sake of remakes afterall. So then why not just remake crystal and have it the only game? But I can see Gold/Silver because of each game have pokemon limited to that game, plus trading between games too.

 

[KedaseDerragar]

Yes, waiting three years with only GS won't make sense. I still think they should add a Battle Frontier in the remakes, but I doubt they'll actually add it, making less reason to buy Platinum (though most probably have bought Platinum by then.)

In my opinion, gen V can perhaps wait 2 years, not much longer.

I think they'll at least have the Battle Tower in some form (it was originally introduced in Crystal, after all), and maybe another such facility, but yeah, I'm pretty sure a full Frontier is out of the question - they've got enough to do without figuring all that out.

I'm wondering, though, how are they going to deal with the discrepancy between the Gen II and Gen IV HMs? Flash as an easily available TM will work fine, but the lack of Whirlpool in both the HM and the TM sets will pose a problem - the Whirl Islands are an integral part of the story, or at least of the mythos of Lugia. And what will they do with Defog and Rock Climb? They could leave them out like they did with Dive in FR/LG, but that would cause odd numbering issues.

Also, I hope they mix up the Pokédex in a way they didn't in FR/LG. Sinnoh Pokémon should be avoided, but I'd like to see a decent number of Hoenn-introduced Pokémon, if only to help flesh out the Gym Leaders' teams. If Morty is still restricted to Gastly and Misdreavus lines, and Jasmine to the Magnemite line, Steelix, and Scizor, they're going to be really boring. But if you include Pokémon like Sableye, Mawile, Aron, Shuppet, etc. - Hoenn natives that weren't included even in the extended Sinnoh Dex - the game will be a lot more fun.

 

[Shinx3000]

I'm wondering, though, how are they going to deal with the discrepancy between the 2nd and 4th Gen. HMs? Flash as an easily available TM will work fine, but the lack of Whirlpool in both the HM and the TM sets will pose a problem - the Whirl Islands are an integral part of the story, or at least of the mythos of Lugia. And what will they do with Defog and Rock Climb? They could leave them out like they did with Dive in FR/LG, but that would cause odd numbering issues

that would not really cause a numbering problem. Remember, flash was a HM prior to D/P and it was made a TM and dive was removed. Defog was added as was Rock climb. Maybe take away rock climb and add whielpool instead. Maybe bring back Dive as a TM instead of whirlpool as TM, but since you can't actually dive in game, use it as an attack move instead or use Rock climb as the TM instead.

 

[KedaseDerragar]

that would not really cause a numbering problem. Remember, flash was a HM prior to D/P and it was made a TM and dive was removed. Defog was added as was Rock climb. Maybe take away rock climb and add whielpool instead. Maybe bring back Dive as a TM instead of whirlpool as TM, but since you can't actually dive in game, use it as an attack move instead or use Rock climb as the TM instead.

But then what happens if they're held by Pokémon and traded between games or even just Pokémon with the moves are traded? That's why you can't transfer Pokémon from Gen III to Gen IV that know HM moves - the HMs are different in both Gens, and the fact that they can't be deleted normally means that a move taught by an HM is on some invisible level different from that same move learned otherwise. All they had to do for FR/LG was not give you HM 08 Dive - but this time around, there's an HM missing that existed before, and two new ones, one of which is in the middle of the numbering sequence instead of at the end. You can't switch around the numbers without prohibiting trade to a certain extent, and prohibiting it only for certain TMs/HMs would be confusing and awkward.

 

[Mika555]

I notice that the Gameboy Color screen had one screen on it, and the Nintendo DS had two screens on it. What exactly would be at the bottom screen? Would it be the PokeGear?

I am not really concern about if they make the catridges color or not I just be glad that the remakes are announced and released.

A Battle Fontier would be great in the remakes, but I will not be disappoint if there were not included though.

I also know that video games in development can be cancelled. I know that the Johto data was there in Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum means that they have consider making these remakes, however this along does not mean that they are going to remake the second genearation games because they have to think about a few things first besides the money such as how will these games be developed and will these games be successfully developed and I know that video games devleopment has six stages which are pre-production, production, milestones, near completion, completion, and maintence. All of those stages have to be gone through for a video game to be developed.

I would be happy if the Gold and Silver remakes are released, but I am not getting my hopes up too high because I want too disappointed if they will not be released.

 

[Shinx3000]

But then what happens if they're held by Pokémon and traded between games or even just Pokémon with the moves are traded? That's why you can't transfer Pokémon from Gen III to Gen IV that know HM moves - the HMs are different in both Gens, and the fact that they can't be deleted normally means that a move taught by an HM is on some invisible level different from that same move learned otherwise. All they had to do for FR/LG was not give you HM 08 Dive - but this time around, there's an HM missing that existed before, and two new ones, one of which is in the middle of the numbering sequence instead of at the end. You can't switch around the numbers without prohibiting trade to a certain extent, and prohibiting it only for certain TMs/HMs would be confusing and awkward

Simple, it was done with Enigma berry in Emerald, and you could not trade it, so disallow pokemon holding the TM for Rock climb. Maybe if a GTS was in GS remake, then have a separate database for it so you could trade pokemon, but disallow trading from D/P/Pt pokemon that hold TM Whirlpool, and TM Rock Climb, simple. I don't really how doing this would make things too difficult.

I notice that the Gameboy Color screen had one screen on it, and the Nintendo DS had two screens on it. What exactly would be at the bottom screen?

Apart from Pokemon moves and the stuff that is already used in D/P/Pt, pokegear would be perfect use of bottom screen.

 

[KedaseDerragar]

I notice that the Gameboy Color screen had one screen on it, and the Nintendo DS had two screens on it. What exactly would be at the bottom screen?

Would it be the PokeGear?

I'm thinking it would definitely be a revamped PokéGear, probably with fewer functions than the Pokétch, but also (hopefully) with a clearer map and overall better graphics - if it looked anything like the Battle Recorder interface, I'd be very, very happy.

 

[KedaseDerragar]

Simple, it was done with Enigma berry in Emerald, and you could not trade it, so disallow pokemon holding the TM for Rock climb. Maybe if a GTS was in GS remake, then have a separate database for it so you could trade pokemon, but disallow trading from D/P/Pt pokemon that hold TM Whirlpool, and TM Rock Climb, simple. I don't really how doing this would make things too difficult.



Apart from Pokemon moves and the stuff that is already used in D/P/Pt, pokegear would be perfect use of bottom screen.

They'd probably just disallow all HMs, held and learned, which I guess wouldn't be a problem. But a separate GTS database would be really frustrating to users, and without it, there would be a discrepancy between what's allowed to be put on there by DPPt and the remakes.

I think we're just overthinking. A better solution, in my opinion, would be to just add in places to use Defog (like the Ecruteak towers and Ilex Forest, since Defog would be an appropriate HM to allow after beating Falkner) and Rock Climb (Lake of Rage, Mt. Mortar, the mountain routes between New Bark Town and Blackthorn, etc.), and have a special/mystical plot-related item that can dispel the whirlpools.

 

[Mitchman]

I would expect though it not to work as well on a normal DS. The game engine sure works fine but with a full fledged Poketech style engine that is far far FAR more advanced is a bit pushing it. I mean the map needs to be open all the time there is the phone and the radio and not to mention more features and all this being in color. I would expect the DSi with its extra oomph in power to get some sort of exclusivity out of this. The DS would have the game pause automatically where you would need to temporarily close the pokegear while on the DSi its able from the get go. I mean both would be the same just with the DSi enhanced it works more smoothly without the pausing.

 

[Silktree]

I'm not sure how different I'd consider Cyndaquil to be from the fiery hamster that was the original starter. It seems more like a makeover than a total reworking of the idea, especially since Quilava and Typhlosion would potentially fit as the evolutions for either of the designs. However, I don't know what the plans were for the original water-type starter.

Honouguma didn't look any more similar to Cyndaquil than Turtwig does compared to Bulbasaur. It's semantics, really, but I don't see it as being like Happa, which was quite obviously Chikorita's prototype design. By the way, the Water-type starter was supposed to be the lovely Kurusu, which was the seel Pokémon some fans believe became Spheal much later down the road (about five years later). It shared nothing in common with Totodile other than type.

There are interesting details to be had from the 1997 Nintendo Space World event. For instance, it would appear that the reason Prof. Oak, as opposed to Prof. Elm, appeared in the beginning scene of the games, was that he had been supposed to be the only professor in the beta versions. In those versions, he made a permanent move from Kanto to the new region, which I don't believe was called Johto quite yet, because of an outbreak of new Pokémon. As the player encountered those new Pokémon, the Pokédex showed incomplete data, since Prof. Oak was only assembling the information.

In contrast, the final versions did not have Prof. Oak refer to the Generation II critters as having been newly found, and the Pokédex data was available in full from the very beginning. However, Prof. Elm was credited for the discovery of the starters and Pokémon eggs, as was Jasmine described as having studied the newly-discovered Steel type. I think that the remakes should do away with those references, as few as they may be, seeing as how Generation III has made it impossible to take them seriously. I am also in favor of replacing Prof. Oak with Prof. Elm for the "Pokémon World" scene, although that shouldn't affect Prof. Oak's role in the games (primarily as the provider of the Pokédex).

Uh oh it seems Unown Lord is going Thunder Yellow on us.

That's a shallow intepretation of what I said, particularly since I didn't even mention Yellow and the real reason I wanted a third game to FireRed and LeafGreen - four years ago - was the lack of a proper one in Generation I. I only brought it up because I disagreed with Shinx3000's view that FireRed and LeafGreen didn't warrant a third game, yet somehow GSDS will.

May I ask why we are discussing such little details as changing the intro movie? Really? Who cares? Most of us skip it anyways. Who cares that the focus is mostly on Kanto Pokemon. (But I guess if you wanted to put Pichu in it, it could be the NEP.)

Firstly, you shouldn't complain unless you can come up with other ideas that haven't been discussed before. Personally, I have plenty of them, but I don't want to get too far into the realm of speculation before the games are actually announced.

Secondly, the third games' introduction scenes are actually relevant to the story. If Crystal isn't going to be remade, there is no reason not to give GSDS that treatment instead. Furthermore, the abundance of Generation I Pokémon in the original scene wasn't a coincidence - it reflected on the actual games. Many fans hold the opinion that the focus should be moved to Generation II in the remakes, and if so, those changes should be visible as soon as possible.

but I doubt they'll actually add it, making less reason to buy Platinum (though most probably have bought Platinum by then.)

Platinum's Japanese sales will be stagnant by the end of the year. There is no reason to downgrade the remakes just to force players to buy Platinum. DPPt's real asset will be the Sinnoh-native Pokémon, the Underground and a few minor features. I am not exactly a big fan of Contests, but the only reason they weren't present in FireRed and LeafGreen (though their data was) was the lack of a clock and berry patches, which GSDS are guaranteed to have.

In my opinion, gen V can perhaps wait 2 years, not much longer.

Two years counting from GSDS' release, which means roughly two years and a half from now.

So then why not just remake crystal and have it the only game? But I can see Gold/Silver because of each game have pokemon limited to that game, plus trading between games too.

Even though the paired versions are essentially a single game, their presentation as separate game helps garner more sales. This admittedly shameless marketing trick has proven too successful to abandon now. Besides, as much as I liked the Suicune sidequest and would like to see it expanded in GSDS, Suicune is simply not as good a mascot as either Ho-oh or Lugia.

Simple, it was done with Enigma berry in Emerald, and you could not trade it, so disallow pokemon holding the TM for Rock climb. Maybe if a GTS was in GS remake, then have a separate database for it so you could trade pokemon, but disallow trading from D/P/Pt pokemon that hold TM Whirlpool, and TM Rock Climb, simple. I don't really how doing this would make things too difficult.

It is interesting that you're suggesting trading restrictions now, even though you advocated full compatibility before when we were discussing new event Pokémon. It goes without saying that I think the restrictions are more than just possible and should be applied where necessary, but the HMs aren't an issue: A Whirlpool HM can be added with ease as HMs cannot be held by Pokémon, and should Rock Climb and Defog not be needed at any point in the games, then they shouldn't even be TMs. The only real problem that could arise is the lack of a Flash HM, but unlike the Generation I and Generation III games, the dark caves in Generation II were optional (much like Wayward Cave in Generation IV). It is also possible that if Mt. Silver becomes integral to the story (by way of making the battle against Red relevant to another event), it will be filled with fog instead, with Defog remaining a HM.

 

[Shinx3000]

It is interesting that you're suggesting trading restrictions now, even though you advocated full compatibility before when we were discussing new event Pokémon

Items yes, but new pokemon no, its ok for some items to restrict trade, with whirlpool I can see this more, but not new pokemon, there is a difference here, like restricting rotoms formes from being traded to D/P as they were not programmed into those games. Formes of pokemon restricted I can see, for obvious reason, but entirely new pokemon I still can't see being made just yet, not even for a remake, only you can see this as far as I know.

Anyway the way I see it, if GSC is remade, then new Gen V if its coming will be first announced sometime by the end of next year and come a few months after that, after showing us Gen V pokemon in Battle Frontier, even if GSC is not remade, I still see that happening anyway.

That's a shallow intepretation of what I said, particularly since I didn't even mention Yellow and the real reason I wanted a third game to FireRed and LeafGreen - four years ago - was the lack of a proper one in Generation I. I only brought it up because I disagreed with Shinx3000's view that FireRed and LeafGreen didn't warrant a third game, yet somehow GSDS will.

Well, if you think there should have been a third remake to FR/LG, what extras would it have? A Battle Frontier? Which was in Emerald anyway and I doubt they could create a battle frontier in a remake, just to have one in Emerald anyway. Was there much difference between Blue to Red and Green at the time? Maybe it was because of Emerald that a third remake never happened.