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Smogon (and others') banning of Pokemon; who are they to decide??

Is Evasion truly broken, or are there counters to it that can be used?

  • Yes! Double Team / Minimize is evil, and should be banned forever!

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No! There are are 15 moves that counter it (+5 more, depending) and items/abilities, too!

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .
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@Ranger Jack Walker: I'm breaking your post into multiple pieces in order to address it properly.
I already pointed out that Evasion Boosts are stupidly easy to abuse by Espeon especially. It's not 'ignoring a point' if I can put up arguements against it.
Granted, but I was referring to evasion boosts in this instance, which you didn't mention in your Espeon retort (which I say again was a very good counter to many of the things I'd listed, but isn't unbeatable).
But numerous people have suggested that you don't play with Smogon rules.
To quote myself, "it felt less like advice and more like an elitist brushing-off, in most cases".
As for Sleep Clause, a Scarfed Smeargle with Spore can shut down your entire team if their were no Sleep Clause. There are fewer ways to counter such a situation. When you know that only one of your Pokemon can be put to sleep, its easy to sacrifice a Pokemon when you know that there's a Spore coming your way or alternately, abuse it by sending in Rest Talker or a Pokemon with Insomnia or something. But when all of your Pokemon can be put to sleep, this tactic doesn't work because it would mean creating an entire team of Rest Talkers or Pokemon with Insomnia/Early Bird.
Why not give Smeargle Lock On, Sheer Cold and Judgment (for filler)? (And since many seem not to know whether or not I'm being serious, I'm not.)
If you look at Serebii's top 100 Pokemon by speed list, Smeargle's not exactly fast, so even a Scarfed Smeargle could get shut down in a heartbeat by a Scarfed Fighting Type, or with Mach Punch alone, since even with a Defense-oriented nature, Smeargle likely won't reach 200 DEF at lv 100. I'd personally think that Breloom would be more threatening a Spore-spreader, but even it's got all kinds of weaknesses.
If Sleep Clause was repealed, there'd be a little while where all you'd see would be Smeargle, Breloom or other Sleep-oriented things, and the things that counter it. Then people will get over it, because the shiny newness of it will wear off, they'll come up with new strategies for play, and do something else, all without Smogon or whoever else setting it up for them.
There's something seriously wrong when your entire team revolves around a single move.
Do weather teams count as 'an entire team revolving around a single move'? What about using only the same 'strongest' six Pokemon to form a given team of any kind?

@Professor Jacel: ...Really?

@Feliciano: Why do you think my thread needs to die?! Jeez, what did it ever do to you...? I supported your using of Flareon, instead of going with the Smogonny opinion that it should be Never Used.
Why is everyone so obsessed with things being so quick, anymore? Pokemon matches - long ones suck. Magic - long games suck. Even 4th edition is like that, with Essentials, now.

@Phoenix502: I like my popcorn slightly burnt, so you may not like it, but you're welcome to share.
 
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Do weather teams count as 'an entire team revolving around a single move'? What about using only the same 'strongest' six Pokemon to form a given team of any kind?

Weather is a problem. That's why there are sentiments to ban permaweather - so other strategies can be viably used. Did you even look at that article I put up?

What's this? A restriction of one thing that actually lets people have more variety when building teams in the long run? What madness is this?

@Feliciano: Why do you think my thread needs to die?! Jeez, what did it ever do to you...? I supported your using of Flareon, instead of going with the Smogonny opinion that it should be Never Used.
Why is everyone so obsessed with things being so quick, anymore? Pokemon matches - long ones suck. Magic - long games suck. Even 4th edition is like that, with Essentials, now.

It needs to die because the discussion is going nowhere. It's just a lot of people talking in circles and bitching (on both sides) and nothing is getting resolved nor reasonably discussed. That's what I call a pointless thread. You did nothing to me, but this topic is not going to get resolved, and I'm honestly astonished it has gone on for this long.

If you look on Youtube, NU is one of the most popular tiers right now. NeverUsed doesn't mean that it should never be considered, but that the particular tier that it is in consists of pokemon that, during that testing period at the beginning of every gen where everything IS allowed (in 5th gen, Darkrai and Deoxys were all over the place in OU), had the lowest percentage rates of usage. That's all. It's not a measure of quality. Think of tiers as working like this: before the testing period happens, everything is NU. People battle on PO, and Smogon looks at the percentages of how often a pokemon is used. Everything over a certain percent is banned from NU, and everything below it is the new NU tier. Those that were banned from NU are the UU tier, and the whole process begins again. Technically, Ubers isn't even a tier - it's just a list of things that are banned from all the other tiers. That is why Mew went down to being in the UnderUsed tier this generation - people weren't using it.

If your problem is with douchebags with superiority complexes who try and lord Smogon's rules over everyone, well, I'm sorry you're surrounded by douchebags. But calling the whole system unreasonable, useless, and lacking in creativity just because a few assholes got on your case about not using it makes you just as judgmental as them. Smogon is not an official representative of Nintendo, Game Freak, or the Pokemon franchise. They do not force anyone outside their community to use their system. They're a bunch of fans who got together and worked out a system for battling with each other that they find efficient and fun, and it so happens that a lot of other people like the system. I'd be the last person to say I was a fan of the people in charge around there, but that's why I just don't go to Smogon anymore. That's the wonderful thing about the internet: just as you have the choice to battle with whatever pokemon and strategies that you want, so too do you have the choice to avoid places and people that piss you off. No one here claims that Smogon's system is perfect, but that's why it's continually being tested.

So can we please wrap this the hell up and all move on with our lives?
 
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Again, it seems nobody can tell the difference when I'm trying to be sarcastic. Maybe I should just add [SARCASTIC] brackets to things when I'm being flippant.
 
Why not give Smeargle Lock On, Sheer Cold and Judgment (for filler)? (And since many seem not to know whether or not I'm being serious, I'm not.)
If you look at Serebii's top 100 Pokemon by speed list, Smeargle's not exactly fast, so even a Scarfed Smeargle could get shut down in a heartbeat by a Scarfed Fighting Type, or with Mach Punch alone, since even with a Defense-oriented nature, Smeargle likely won't reach 200 DEF at lv 100. I'd personally think that Breloom would be more threatening a Spore-spreader, but even it's got all kinds of weaknesses.
If Sleep Clause was repealed, there'd be a little while where all you'd see would be Smeargle, Breloom or other Sleep-oriented things, and the things that counter it. Then people will get over it, because the shiny newness of it will wear off, they'll come up with new strategies for play, and do something else, all without Smogon or whoever else setting it up for them.

No, they wouldn't. Did you even read the article @Feliciano linked? Competitive players draw their fun from winning, so they're not going to stop using winning strategies as long as they keep winning. Hence the overcentralization issue.
 
Do weather teams count as 'an entire team revolving around a single move'? What about using only the same 'strongest' six Pokemon to form a given team of any kind?

You'll rarely find a weather team thats completely identical. SUre some Pokemon like Kingdra will almost always be on a rain team (before the combo ban) and the likes of Scizor will also highgly likely to feature in a sand team but its never gauranteed. Just read some the RMTs on smogon to see proof.
 
@Stratago: i don't mind. my dad has a problem with burning almost everything he cooks (especially Popcorn) due to being distracted... besides, it's nothing a little salt can't fix.
 
Why not give Smeargle Lock On, Sheer Cold and Judgment (for filler)? (And since many seem not to know whether or not I'm being serious, I'm not.)
If you look at Serebii's top 100 Pokemon by speed list, Smeargle's not exactly fast, so even a Scarfed Smeargle could get shut down in a heartbeat by a Scarfed Fighting Type, or with Mach Punch alone, since even with a Defense-oriented nature, Smeargle likely won't reach 200 DEF at lv 100. I'd personally think that Breloom would be more threatening a Spore-spreader, but even it's got all kinds of weaknesses.
If Sleep Clause was repealed, there'd be a little while where all you'd see would be Smeargle, Breloom or other Sleep-oriented things, and the things that counter it. Then people will get over it, because the shiny newness of it will wear off, they'll come up with new strategies for play, and do something else, all without Smogon or whoever else setting it up for them.

No, they wouldn't. Did you even read the article Feliciano linked? Competitive players draw their fun from winning, so they're not going to stop using winning strategies as long as they keep winning. Hence the overcentralization issue.

To be fair, a lot of competitive players actually get enjoyment out of other aspects than just winning. Having great prediction, showcasing some neglected Pokemon successfully or just how they enjoyed the actual battle itself while they were playing are all prime examples.

Besides, all winning strategies get countered eventually; time before a counter comes into play just depends on how many people (ab)use said strategy.
 
Yep Sleep Clause is A Great thing. If you do not want the sleep clause on then you are an Idiot.

With that new sleep mechanic? Hell yes, it's a good idea. Smogon, while I don't battle there, does something: they make points that we wanted to see. Sleep Powder and Spores off the wazoo. The sleep mechanics of Gen V make me cringe.

Frankly, they do good for their battling community.
 
@Ranger Jack Walker: I'm breaking your post into multiple pieces in order to address it properly.
I already pointed out that Evasion Boosts are stupidly easy to abuse by Espeon especially. It's not 'ignoring a point' if I can put up arguements against it.
Granted, but I was referring to evasion boosts in this instance, which you didn't mention in your Espeon retort (which I say again was a very good counter to many of the things I'd listed, but isn't unbeatable).
But numerous people have suggested that you don't play with Smogon rules.
To quote myself, "it felt less like advice and more like an elitist brushing-off, in most cases".
As for Sleep Clause, a Scarfed Smeargle with Spore can shut down your entire team if their were no Sleep Clause. There are fewer ways to counter such a situation. When you know that only one of your Pokemon can be put to sleep, its easy to sacrifice a Pokemon when you know that there's a Spore coming your way or alternately, abuse it by sending in Rest Talker or a Pokemon with Insomnia or something. But when all of your Pokemon can be put to sleep, this tactic doesn't work because it would mean creating an entire team of Rest Talkers or Pokemon with Insomnia/Early Bird.
Why not give Smeargle Lock On, Sheer Cold and Judgment (for filler)? (And since many seem not to know whether or not I'm being serious, I'm not.)
If you look at Serebii's top 100 Pokemon by speed list, Smeargle's not exactly fast, so even a Scarfed Smeargle could get shut down in a heartbeat by a Scarfed Fighting Type, or with Mach Punch alone, since even with a Defense-oriented nature, Smeargle likely won't reach 200 DEF at lv 100. I'd personally think that Breloom would be more threatening a Spore-spreader, but even it's got all kinds of weaknesses.
If Sleep Clause was repealed, there'd be a little while where all you'd see would be Smeargle, Breloom or other Sleep-oriented things, and the things that counter it. Then people will get over it, because the shiny newness of it will wear off, they'll come up with new strategies for play, and do something else, all without Smogon or whoever else setting it up for them.
There's something seriously wrong when your entire team revolves around a single move.
Do weather teams count as 'an entire team revolving around a single move'? What about using only the same 'strongest' six Pokemon to form a given team of any kind?

@Professor Jacel: ...Really?

@Feliciano: Why do you think my thread needs to die?! Jeez, what did it ever do to you...? I supported your using of Flareon, instead of going with the Smogonny opinion that it should be Never Used.
Why is everyone so obsessed with things being so quick, anymore? Pokemon matches - long ones suck. Magic - long games suck. Even 4th edition is like that, with Essentials, now.

@Phoenix502: I like my popcorn slightly burnt, so you may not like it, but you're welcome to share.

Yes Really

Secondly Weather Teams do not Revolve around one move. They revolve around a number of things. Abilities, Moves, Strategies for your team or maybe a certain pokemon. Just because you are using a hail team does not mean that you are going to only use blizzard on one pokemon it would not work out. There would be pokemon that could not make good use of it because they have a higher attack stat than special attack stat.. Rain Team- Can revolve around a Toxicroak with Dry Skin Holding Black Sludge, Moveset, Bulk Up, Drain Punch, Sucker Punch, Substitue. this is the most common thing on a rain team. They may use a different move set but this is what people usually try. In Know way is it revolving around a certain move. Sun Team- You really can't revolve around a certain move but you could intend on fire moves but not everyone does that either. They use pokemon that work well together and support the team. Cherrim for instance. They make use of solar beam and all fire moves and use the heat to reduce potential water damage from taking you out. Hail Team- Not everyone gets there and hacks blizzard. For one if hail goes away you can miss so its not smart they might carry one or two with it. If they do not they probably have ice beam. I have seen different hail strategies all over the place but none simple result in I will try and blizzard everyone. In Sand Storm you do not see people on use Earthquake? They have a number of Pokemon on the team that try to help and support the team. to say a weather team revolves around one move is crazy. If they want to use the same six strong pokemon then let them? but what are you even referring to? What Pokemon? There are a number of strong poekmon out there.

Sorry about my Idiot Comment Angad. I meant know disrespect toward anyone.
 
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Aura Sphere is a Special Move and it can miss. I have no idea why anyone would even consider using it against a Blissey. And the moves that can't miss are awful. 60 base power is awful except on those select few with Technician. For example, even with the Technican Boost, an Aerial Ace Scizor will only manage to get a 3 HKO on a standard Blissey. Thats simply not worth it.

Dude, your so wrong. Aura Sphere is a Special Move (You were right there.), it has 90 Base Power, and it cannot miss.
Don't belive me? Then look at this: Aura Sphere (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
That link might not work, well, at least for now, it didn't work for me. If it doesn't work, then try this: Serebii.net AttackDex - Aura Sphere
 
Aura Sphere is a Special Move and it can miss. I have no idea why anyone would even consider using it against a Blissey. And the moves that can't miss are awful. 60 base power is awful except on those select few with Technician. For example, even with the Technican Boost, an Aerial Ace Scizor will only manage to get a 3 HKO on a standard Blissey. Thats simply not worth it.

Dude, your so wrong. Aura Sphere is a Special Move (You were right there.), it has 90 Base Power, and it cannot miss.
Don't belive me? Then look at this: Aura Sphere (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
That link might not work, well, at least for now, it didn't work for me. If it doesn't work, then try this: Serebii.net AttackDex - Aura Sphere

Dude, I've already admitted that mistake a long time ago. Did you even read the next few posts?
 
Aura Sphere is a Special Move and it can miss. I have no idea why anyone would even consider using it against a Blissey. And the moves that can't miss are awful. 60 base power is awful except on those select few with Technician. For example, even with the Technican Boost, an Aerial Ace Scizor will only manage to get a 3 HKO on a standard Blissey. Thats simply not worth it.

Dude, your so wrong. Aura Sphere is a Special Move (You were right there.), it has 90 Base Power, and it cannot miss.
Don't belive me? Then look at this: Aura Sphere (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
That link might not work, well, at least for now, it didn't work for me. If it doesn't work, then try this: Serebii.net AttackDex - Aura Sphere

Dude, I've already admitted that mistake a long time ago. Did you even read the next few posts?

No. I was to lazy.
 
Aura Sphere is a Special Move and it can miss. I have no idea why anyone would even consider using it against a Blissey. And the moves that can't miss are awful. 60 base power is awful except on those select few with Technician. For example, even with the Technican Boost, an Aerial Ace Scizor will only manage to get a 3 HKO on a standard Blissey. Thats simply not worth it.

Dude, your so wrong. Aura Sphere is a Special Move (You were right there.), it has 90 Base Power, and it cannot miss.
Don't belive me? Then look at this: Aura Sphere (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
That link might not work, well, at least for now, it didn't work for me. If it doesn't work, then try this: Serebii.net AttackDex - Aura Sphere

Dude, I've already admitted that mistake a long time ago. Did you even read the next few posts?

No. I was to lazy.

Generally good to read further.
 
I don't know if this comment won't be like, infracted, but I'll take the risk.

I could go either way on the Double Team thing. Aura Sphere, in my opinion, is a bit overpowered for what it has going for it, so like I see earlier about if this were to be allowed, I pretty much see people say this:
"Oh no it's Blissey!!"
"Oh no it's Skarmory!!"
"Oh no it's (Insert Pokemon name here)!!"

As for banning Moody, well, it's crap. I think Smogon is just hating on Bidoof.

Every Pokemon, and I mean every Pokemon has a counter. Whether or not is easy or hard, all Pokemon have their weak points. As with people.

I remember battling this one person, it wasn't a competive battle, but I used a Sheildon, which was kinda EV trained, and got 4 or 5 Double Teams up, and this guy still hit me! He was using moves like Dark Pulse, Power Whip, and Outrage. We had a couple of battles, which after that one battle I mencioned, I got 2 to 3 Double Teams up, and still hit me with the same moves! Unbelivable, right?
 
I don't know if this comment won't be like, infracted, but I'll take the risk.

I could go either way on the Double Team thing. Aura Sphere, in my opinion, is a bit overpowered for what it has going for it, so like I see earlier about if this were to be allowed, I pretty much see people say this:
"Oh no it's Blissey!!"
"Oh no it's Skarmory!!"
"Oh no it's (Insert Pokemon name here)!!"

As for banning Moody, well, it's crap. I think Smogon is just hating on Bidoof.

Every Pokemon, and I mean every Pokemon has a counter. Whether or not is easy or hard, all Pokemon have their weak points. As with people.

I remember battling this one person, it wasn't a competive battle, but I used a Sheildon, which was kinda EV trained, and got 4 or 5 Double Teams up, and this guy still hit me! He was using moves like Dark Pulse, Power Whip, and Outrage. We had a couple of battles, which after that one battle I mencioned, I got 2 to 3 Double Teams up, and still hit me with the same moves! Unbelivable, right?

That match was decided by coin flips, then,
 
Moody is banned because again, it takes no skill to use effectively. Completely luck based and zero skill. There is no denying this.
 
Its true I would agree if you want to randomly raise a stat just use accupressure and hope you are indeed lucky enough to get what you want. Not for sure if Bidoof can learn it but Other pokemon can.
 
Moody is banned because again, it takes no skill to use effectively. Completely luck based and zero skill. There is no denying this.

To be fair, I think they shouldn't have banned it as they did. If they gave it more time, like they do wiith just about everything that's suspect, then its usage would have declined. I'd agree with you if people didn't just abide by that mindset whenever they feel like it. Pokemon like Togekiss that are bulky enough to get a Thunder Wave off, and then proceed to spam powerful Air Slashes, wager the battle completely on luck.

It's not just that though, is it? Yesterday I fought a guy with a Lanturn that had Confuse Ray, Thunder Wave and Waterfall. I didn't see the fourth slot, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was Attract. If so many people have a problem with Moody, a strategy that is based on luck initially, then why is deliberate haxxing alright?

I realise luck is part of the game, and a crucial part at that, but I think abusing it with Serene Grace or other things of the sort, is no better than Moody.
 
@Feliciano: Maybe if there were more than, oh, the same 3-4 people who keep telling me to 'get over it', I'd let it go, but that's not the case. You're free to 'get on with your life' whenever you like; all you've got to do is not hit up my thread anymore, since my opinion seems to upset you so much.

@Phoenix502: Yes, indeedy, salt is its own food group. Chow down.
 
It's not your opinion that upsets people, if that's even the correct way to describe my feelings on this. It's your constant complaining about issues (like other people enforcing Smogon Rules) that neither Smogon nor we can be faulted for.
 
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