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Do you have any unpopular opinions about the anime?

Well then I guess we can expect Ash to lose the pokemon league for another 20 years since losing is considered okay. Ash has learnt enough because he had lost many times by now so surely he would start to win?

Are the Leagues that only thing that matter now? Are we not supposed to count anything about the journey of Ash getting to the League that shows how he and his Pokemon grow through various battles? Does all of Ash's accomplishments during a journey magically disappear because Ash didn't win the League? This seems pretty backwards thinking in general, especially for a show that is all about the journey rather than the destination. For someone who was fine with Ash losing in the Kalos League, you seem to be surprisingly focused on Ash winning a League now. That's why this feels very confusing, sudden and jarring to me.

Plus, no one has really looked down on Ash for losing in the League, aside from the first one where Misty pointed out that he was lucky to get past the first round with his training. They feel bad for Ash, but they don't think he's a pathetic trainer for not getting the trophy. This mindset is especially odd when Ash was the runner up for the Kalos League and he has been presented as a strong trainer even after losing to Alain.
 
The thing is that the Kalos League loss is no ordinary loss. It's a loss that is rendered meaningless considering what happens later on. The status quo comes in two parts. One is that Ash doesn't get the trophy. The second is that the person who beats him is someone who is simply better at being a trainer than he is and if it's a League rival (and not Gary Oak), he's usually better than Ash in both battle experience AND maturity.

The status quo of the anime is not really Ash never wins the League, but rather that there is Always Someone Better in spite of your accomplishments. That is what kept the Dragon Ball series going for all these years. The notion of stronger opponents to face.

Which is why I feel that XY&Z is not following the status quo despite Ash losing the Kalos League. Even though Alain won, we see that Ash is the better trainer of the two, and the one who understands the point of being a trainer. The latest episode showcases it by having Ash be the voice of guidance and hope to Alain when he succumbs to despair. His fury and rage towards Lysandre is unlike anything I've seen out of Satoshi throughout the series. It makes me tremble with awe, respect, and fear at the same time. He leads the attack while Alain follows. That's not something you would expect out of a typical champion scenario like this. Usually, it's Ash who follows the champion's guidance, not the other way around.

Kalos is the region that no one really looks down upon Ash. Rather most want to be like Ash, inspired by Ash, and so forth. If there is any Ash that can be considered a master, it's the XY&Z Ash. If they really wanted to keep the status quo intact, they shouldn't have made Ash into this kind of trainer.
Ash is not better since he lost to Alain. He would only be better if he finally beats him.

Are the Leagues that only thing that matter now? Are we not supposed to count anything about the journey of Ash getting to the League that shows how he and his Pokemon grow through various battles? Does all of Ash's accomplishments during a journey magically disappear because Ash didn't win the League? This seems pretty backwards thinking in general, especially for a show that is all about the journey rather than the destination. For someone who was fine with Ash losing in the Kalos League, you seem to be surprisingly focused on Ash winning a League now. That's why this feels very confusing, sudden and jarring to me.

Plus, no one has really looked down on Ash for losing in the League, aside from the first one where Misty pointed out that he was lucky to get past the first round with his training. They feel bad for Ash, but they don't think he's a pathetic trainer for not getting the trophy. This mindset is especially odd when Ash was the runner up for the Kalos League and he has been presented as a strong trainer even after losing to Alain.
I was fine with Ash losing when Greninja was getting overhyped and I want to keep my hopes low to avoid disappointment. Ash didn't made much accomplishments apart for Orange islands league and battle frontier. But no doubt Ash would lose the next league and the league after that. That is hardly what I call a strong trainer.
 
Ash is not better since he lost to Alain. He would only be better if he finally beats him.


I was fine with Ash losing when Greninja was getting overhyped and I want to keep my hopes low to avoid disappointment. Ash didn't made much accomplishments apart for Orange islands league and battle frontier. But no doubt Ash would lose the next league and the league after that. That is hardly what I call a strong trainer.

And you think they are going to leave that unresolved? Regardless, I have seen strong and "better" trainers who are on the wrong path. Giovanni of Pokémon Origins is obviously more stronger than Red (He nearly took down Red's entire team with just one Pokémon in their Gym Battle), but the show makes it clear that Red is the better trainer than Giovanni would ever be. Red inspires Giovanni and convinces him to drop his evil ways and forge a new path for himself and his Pokémon. But by your definition, Giovanni is better than Red because Red couldn't have beaten Giovanni in a fair fight (6 vs 2).

Oh and by the way, don't buy into the internet's notion of what counts as strength. If a runner up overshadows the champion, the champion's title becomes worthless in the eyes of many. Asks Chick Hicks of Cars.
 
I was fine with Ash losing when Greninja was getting overhyped and I want to keep my hopes low to avoid disappointment. Ash didn't made much accomplishments apart for Orange islands league and battle frontier. But no doubt Ash would lose the next league and the league after that. That is hardly what I call a strong trainer.

So winning is the only thing that matters to you now? Ash making progress throughout his journeys, improving in his League rankings, aside from the Unova League, and getting to the finals for the first time in the Kalos League mean nothing because he didn't win? This is completely ridiculous. Sure, winning is important for being a Pokemon Master and all that, but it's not the only thing that matters. If you don't think Ash is a strong trainer in XY because he only made it to the finals instead of winning the whole thing, I don't know what else to say to you. It's clear that you have a serious problem with the idea of losing, a completely backwards logic approach to the concept of strength and that you really haven't paid attention to the show if the only thing that matters or the only thing that gives Ash any sense of accomplishment is winning a League.
 
And you think they are going to leave that unresolved? Regardless, I have seen strong and "better" trainers who are on the wrong path. Giovanni of Pokémon Origins is obviously more stronger than Red (He nearly took down Red's entire team with just one Pokémon in their Gym Battle), but the show makes it clear that Red is the better trainer than Giovanni would ever be. Red inspires Giovanni and convinces him to drop his evil ways and forge a new path for himself and his Pokémon. But by your definition, Giovanni is better than Red because Red couldn't have beaten Giovanni in a fair fight (6 vs 2).

Oh and by the way, don't buy into the internet's notion of what counts as strength. If a runner up overshadows the champion, the champion's title becomes worthless in the eyes of many. Asks Chick Hicks of Cars.
Ash is unlikely going to overshadow anyone since that is not who he is.
 
I wish "Meowth's Ballad" wasn't happening at all.

I know that you don't like Meowth's Japanese voice, which is perfectly fine, but I don't really see the point in complaining about the new ending theme. It would be pretty easy to avoid it, especially if you aren't watching the Japanese version anymore. Even if you are, stopping right when the song plays would be pretty easy, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
 
Ash is unlikely going to overshadow anyone since that is not who he is.

In previous series, maybe. But that is not the case in XY and XY&Z. Ever since he got off that plane, people have been looking up to Ash and see him as a source of inspiration as a trainer and a person. That's who he is. He was the first who resisted and defied Lysandre, not Alain. He was targeted by Lysandre to be a puppet "chosen one" for the survivors due to his special bond with Greninja. And he was the one who directly challenges Lysandre's goals and motives head on, instead of being confused and lost like Alain.

He is at last what he was always meant to be: Pokémon Trainer Red.
 
So winning is the only thing that matters to you now? Ash making progress throughout his journeys, improving in his League rankings, aside from the Unova League, and getting to the finals for the first time in the Kalos League mean nothing because he didn't win? This is completely ridiculous. Sure, winning is important for being a Pokemon Master and all that, but it's not the only thing that matters. If you don't think Ash is a strong trainer in XY because he only made it to the finals instead of winning the whole thing, I don't know what else to say to you. It's clear that you have a serious problem with the idea of losing, a completely backwards logic approach to the concept of strength and that you really haven't paid attention to the show if the only thing that matters or the only thing that gives Ash any sense of accomplishment is winning a League.
Well top 2 is impressive, it would have been better if he won since it was hyped a lot. However Alain did win fair and square. I don't have a backwards logic because I call it like I see it. Do you think fans want to see Ash lose the league repeatedly instead of moving on to the Elite Four and Champion?
 
Well top 2 is impressive, it would have been better if he won since it was hyped a lot. However Alain did win fair and square. I don't have a backwards logic because I call it like I see it. Do you think fans want to see Ash lose the league repeatedly instead of moving on to the Elite Four and Champion?

It seems more like you're changing your opinions drastically and rather suddenly rather than calling it like you see it. The backwards logic I'm talking about is when you think nothing else matters other than winning a League and ignoring all of the progress Ash has made, even when you said before how getting to the finals was impressive and were emphasizing that fact when people were upset over Ash losing to Alain. That is backwards logic because it ignores not only how Ash is presented in XY, but just how they handle the concept of losing in the show in general. This is why I can't really take your claims seriously. Not only are you changing your claims rather suddenly, but the logic still has huge holes in it and it's like you're watching a completely different show. It's like you'll change your claims at the drop of a hat and that's just really confusing.

Obviously fans don't want to see Ash lose the League every series. This has been a complaint for the anime for ages. But I think that fans do ignore/downplay the sense of progression Ash does generally make through each League. Like I said before, BW kind of threw that out of the window and one could argue that XY went to the opposite route of that extreme by making Ash progress too far, or at least that he didn't really have a lot of challenges to deal with through Kalos, but he still generally improves with each League. Winning isn't the only thing that matters and if you really think that's the case, you haven't been really paying attention to the series, especially when we have seen what happens to a trainer who is too focus on winning for the shake of winning during Ash's first attempt at the Snowbell City Gym. If that mini arc doesn't show you that the show does not put winning above all else when it comes to being a trainer, then I really don't have anything more to say to you.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm done with this conversation too. We're both going around in circles and I'm honestly quite frustrated trying to constantly explain the same darn thing here. Much like I said in the other thread, don't bother to continue the conversation past this point. I don't want to talk to you anymore.
 
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I don't care about what people think about me anymore or whether they want to talk to me. I am tired of trying to be accepted when it is clear that all people do is mock my posts and give me attitude. Yes, my posts is not perfect and sometimes I change my opinion rather quick but I don't need this disrespect.

Change of topic: Team Rocket had overstayed their welcome since Johto is another unpopular opinion of mine. I rather have the other evils as the main focus in Hoenn and onwards.
 
I actually liked Brock throughout his run on the show. A lot of people tend to say that he was boring in DP, that he brought the chemistry of the group down and that he shouldn't have been included in the series at all, but I disagree. He honestly got more focused episodes in AG and DP than he ever did in the original series. He worked for the role he had in the group, actually did play key roles in Dawn gaining Mamoswine's trust and the Team Galactic climax and he still felt like he was friends with Ash and Dawn. They just spent a lot of time focusing on Ash, Dawn and their connection more so than the group as a whole, but the chemistry still works and I don't think that Brock's role could have been replaced by a fourth generation character.

I do think it was better in the long run that they started to bring in new secondary male leads starting with BW to mix things up some more and Clemont might be my favorite secondary male character thus far, but I don't think it was a mistake for Brock to stick around for as long as he did. In spite of what I just said, a part of me kind of misses Brock a bit since I did like him and he had such a long presence in the show.

I'm not sure how unpopular this opinion is, but I like Team Flare in XY more than in the games. Normally, I don't care for the evil teams as much as I do in the games or it's around equal, but the changes they made to Team Flare actually work to their advantage. It helps that unlike with say the changes with Team Plasma, they actually made Team Flare more interesting in the show. Despite their end goal, Team Flare was too goofy and ridiculous for me to take seriously for most of the game, but in XY, they're serious, competent and even the admin scientists have a bit more personalities. It might also helped that they didn't include AZ in the anime. AZ was important for the backstory on the Ultimate Weapon and all, but I felt like he was a bit tacked on in the games. You only see him three times if I recall correctly, including the ending where his story is resolved. While seeing that ending was touching, I don't think that the anime lost out on a lot by not incorporating AZ into their version of the Team Flare storyline.
 
I'm not sure how unpopular this opinion is, but I like Team Flare in XY more than in the games. Normally, I don't care for the evil teams as much as I do in the games or it's around equal, but the changes they made to Team Flare actually work to their advantage. It helps that unlike with say the changes with Team Plasma, they actually made Team Flare more interesting in the show. Despite their end goal, Team Flare was too goofy and ridiculous for me to take seriously for most of the game, but in XY, they're serious, competent and even the admin scientists have a bit more personalities. It might also helped that they didn't include AZ in the anime. AZ was important for the backstory on the Ultimate Weapon and all, but I felt like he was a bit tacked on in the games. You only see him three times if I recall correctly, including the ending where his story is resolved. While seeing that ending was touching, I don't think that the anime lost out on a lot by not incorporating AZ into their version of the Team Flare storyline.

From what I can gather, that's pretty much a common opinion from fans (at least those who are willing to stick around after the League). Many have noted that Lysandre is a lot less obviously evil in his public appearance, and many more found their evil plan to have a lot of weight and tension that they felt was lacking in the games.

There are some who believe Lysandre isn't as sympathetic enough as in the games, citing he didn't shed a tear in the anime. But others have noted that Lysandre in the anime wasn't as much of a hypocrite as in the games (namely that game Team Flare makes people spend 5,000,000 Pokédollars to get in).
 
Like I said before, BW kind of threw that out of the window and one could argue that XY went to the opposite route of that extreme by making Ash progress too far, or at least that he didn't really have a lot of challenges to deal with through Kalos, but he still generally improves with each League. Winning isn't the only thing that matters and if you really think that's the case, you haven't been really paying attention to the series, especially when we have seen what happens to a trainer who is too focus on winning for the shake of winning during Ash's first attempt at the Snowbell City Gym. If that mini arc doesn't show you that the show does not put winning above all else when it comes to being a trainer, then I really don't have anything more to say to you.

Had Best Wishes never happened, or X & Y took place directly after D/P, it probably wouldn't feel that way. It felt more like Ash returned to form after experiencing some severe traumatic temporal displacement. (Dialga...what a d*ck) I certainly agree though, that Ash losing to Alain in the finals is at least FAR batter than some random dude like Tobias with legendaries coming in and ending him. That is definitely progress, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ash wins the Alola trials whenever that takes place in the anime. Would be a nice callback to him winning the Orange League to boot.

Still, I understand people's frustration with Ash losing the Kalos league. There are those who still want to see him take the E4 challenge hinted at back during DP. Maybe Ash will win a league and take that challenge whenever its time the anime team decides to retire his character.

My personal unpopular opinion for this thread that relates to the above topic: If Gym Leaders are truly gone/replaced in the game series for at least a few generations, then that means there won't be another "traditional" league for Ash to possibly win; at least in the near future. The solution? Have him retake the Indigo challenge with the current skills that he has obtained over the course of the series. That would actually be a nice swan song to his character if they ever did retire him. Maybe around the time of any more Kanto remakes/revisits, but it could be an anniversary type of deal as well.
 
I do think it was better in the long run that they started to bring in new secondary male leads starting with BW to mix things up some more and Clemont might be my favorite secondary male character thus far, but I don't think it was a mistake for Brock to stick around for as long as he did. In spite of what I just said, a part of me kind of misses Brock a bit since I did like him and he had such a long presence in the show.
Oh...

Had Best Wishes never happened, or X & Y took place directly after D/P, it probably wouldn't feel that way. It felt more like Ash returned to form after experiencing some severe traumatic temporal displacement.
Brock was with Ash for an incredibly long time. Maybe he lost focus during BW because of not having him around anymore, and by XY he'd fully recovered and was able to battle with his full abilities again?

Not entirely serious, but it's a fun thought.

My personal unpopular opinion for this thread that relates to the above topic: If Gym Leaders are truly gone/replaced in the game series for at least a few generations, then that means there won't be another "traditional" league for Ash to possibly win; at least in the near future. The solution? Have him retake the Indigo challenge with the current skills that he has obtained over the course of the series. That would actually be a nice swan song to his character if they ever did retire him. Maybe around the time of any more Kanto remakes/revisits, but it could be an anniversary type of deal as well.
I actually rather like this.
 
Had Best Wishes never happened, or X & Y took place directly after D/P, it probably wouldn't feel that way. It felt more like Ash returned to form after experiencing some severe traumatic temporal displacement. (Dialga...what a d*ck) I certainly agree though, that Ash losing to Alain in the finals is at least FAR batter than some random dude like Tobias with legendaries coming in and ending him. That is definitely progress, and I wouldn't be surprised if Ash wins the Alola trials whenever that takes place in the anime. Would be a nice callback to him winning the Orange League to boot.

Still, I understand people's frustration with Ash losing the Kalos league. There are those who still want to see him take the E4 challenge hinted at back during DP. Maybe Ash will win a league and take that challenge whenever its time the anime team decides to retire his character.

Yeah, I think that's why I think Ash's progress in XY could feel like they're trying a bit too hard to make him strong. It's good that he's competent and he has progressed of course, but it does feel jarring compared to how he was in BW. With the first three series, his increase in strength was a more steady progression. If XY was somehow after DP, his skills would probably feel like a continuation of that progression. Even getting to the finals after getting to the Top 4 and basically being the honorary runner up for the Sinnoh League would have fit with that progression too. The regression in BW kind of still feels a bit jarring in this sense.

It also does pose another problem for the next series in that people will be upset if Ash doesn't win the Island Trials. Granted, that would happen regardless of XY, but after Ash made it all the way to the finals, it might be annoying for fans to see him get anything less than complete victory in his next journey. I can also already see people dismissing the Island Trials as a pity League if he does win, much like fans say that the Orange Islands doesn't count for anything.

El_ said:
My personal unpopular opinion for this thread that relates to the above topic: If Gym Leaders are truly gone/replaced in the game series for at least a few generations, then that means there won't be another "traditional" league for Ash to possibly win; at least in the near future. The solution? Have him retake the Indigo challenge with the current skills that he has obtained over the course of the series. That would actually be a nice swan song to his character if they ever did retire him. Maybe around the time of any more Kanto remakes/revisits, but it could be an anniversary type of deal as well.

I don't think I could see them retiring Ash's character at this point, but that would be kind of a nice swan song to his character. I think it's more likely for the anime to just make an Alola League. Even if the games don't have the traditional Gym structure, the anime may just continue with making their own tournament style League as per usual with each region. Plus, for better or for worse, the anime doesn't tend to take as much risks and changes as the video games do. Each series does try out new concepts and ideas, but not to the extent that the video games often do.
 
You people are taking the Alan solo'd Kalos thing too far.

If Ash wanted to he could have done the same with Ash Greninja.

Considering what a waste of space Noivern ended up being they might as well just have ash pull a cameron.
 
You people are taking the Alan solo'd Kalos thing too far.

If Ash wanted to he could have done the same with Ash Greninja.

Considering what a waste of space Noivern ended up being they might as well just have ash pull a cameron.

I don't think that Ash could have gone through all of the Gyms in Kalos with Ash-Greninja. It's strong, but not that strong. Not to mention Ash didn't even get Greninja until after he got seven badges anyway, so the comparison doesn't quite make sense to me. I agree that Noivern was ultimately pretty unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. He could have gone through Kalos with just four Pokemon and nothing would have changed drastically.
 
On top of that, even at his peak, Ash-Greninja still struggled somewhat with Wulfric's team and never beat the strategy he originally employed (which I do question, but that's beside the point). So it wasn't like he completely stomped the Gym, he still had to use the best of his abilities to get far. With Alain, the only context we have is that A) He demolished Korrina's Mega Lucario, and B) He got the badges in a very short amount of time, especially compared to how long Ash took. So what the show implies to us was that Alain was good enough that he essentially Tobias'd the region and got his badges in quick order for the league (which he then demolished most of the trainers there in quick order too until Ash). It gets even worse as the story then gives us the Furfrou guy, who is supposed to embody all of the trainers who couldn't get into the league and how tough it was to get there, yet Alain did it so effortlessly as the plot presents it to us.

So I don't think the comparison between Ash and Alain really works here. Ash through the show does show the time and effort he puts into each badge and even at his peak he still had to use his tools to the best of his abilities to reach the top. We don't see that with Alain as he does it too fast with little struggle. It's probably a result of the pacing issues with Alain's transition to being a rival to Ash, but even so, it does make the character come off as overpowered with the way the story presents it.
 
Another unpopular opinion of the anime: Charizard's disobedience costs Ash the league match was just bad for me. It is one thing to lose by having all your pokemon knocked out but it is another when your pokemon decides to cost you a match. Not cool in my opinion.
 
Please note: The thread is from 10 months ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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