Inconsistency regarding episode numbering in the original series

[pokemega32]

I notice there's a seeming inconsistency in the numbering of four episodes of the original anime series: Holiday Hi-Jynx, Snow Way Out!, Princess vs. Princess and The Purr-fect Hero.

All four of these episodes were intended to air in a different order than they were actually aired, as seen in an earlier schedule on all of their pages, but the schedule was reordered following the seizure incident in EP038 and the resulting hiatus.

However, the way the wiki handles the numbering of the former two episodes is different from how it handles the latter two.

Holiday Hi-Jynx and Snow Way Out! are unnumbered, and included in the episode list between EP038 and EP039, where they were originally intended to air, rather than between EP064 and EP065 when they actually aired.

Princess vs. Princess and The Purr-fect Hero however are numbered as EP052 and EP053 respectively, which is when they actually aired. The pre-hiatus schedule listed them as airing following The Problem with Paras (EP044).

Is there an official episode listing that these decisions are based on, or does the conflict simply result from different users making the numbering/listing decision and not being aware of the other decision?

 

[Force Fire]

From the trivia:

• Due to not airing when initially intended, it is considered by Bulbapedia to be a special episode.

 

[pokemega32]

That's my point though. Why is that logic used for Holiday Hi-Jynx and Snow Way Out! but not for the other two episodes?

 

[Force Fire]

From my knowledge, EP052 and 053 aired regularly, as in, they weren't advertised as specials. Whereas Snow Way Out and Holiday Hi Jynx were advertised as specials. Note that this is going by the dub, since we're an English wiki.

Also, in the Holiday Hi-Jynx talk page, a decision was made not to move them four episodes around since it'd add unnecessary work. We'd have to move/edit well over 800 pages, and it's something we're just not gonna do.

 

[pokemega32]

Ah, I realized both pairs had aired as hour-long holiday specials in Japan, so I sort of skimmed over the part that specified Kids' WB! advertising the first pair as such.

However, would it not still make sense to move the two down the episode list to when they aired, even if they're still unnumbered?

 

[pokeant]

i really do not like double standard here... despite the japanese episode having the word special episode in front of the title, these 2 are still treated as normal episodes. The next episode clip in "It's Mr. Mime Time" still shows "Holiday Hi-Jynx". The next episode clip in "Snow Way Out" still shows "Showdown at the Po-ké Corral". They still appears in re-runs between those episodes. While airing out of order, they should still be considered EP065 and EP066 respectively.

Special episodes such as these do not have the treatment of next episode clip in japan and usually only air one time unlike these 2 episodes. Flashback to "Snow Way Out" appears in BW series unlike other special which are seldom referenced.

From the trivia:

• Due to not airing when initially intended, it is considered by Bulbapedia to be a special episode.

"An Undersea Place to Call Home!" reruns in japan in the original order so no issue there. "A Fishing Connoisseur in a Fishy Competition!" is retcon and had aired in its new order ever since so no issue too.
However, "Princess vs Princess" and "The Purr-fect Hero" also do not air as intended. Despite taking place after "So Near, Yet So Farfetch'd", "Princess vs Princess" still numbered after that episode so airing out of order should not be an issue.

So why are Holiday Hi Jynx and Snow Way Out treated differently? Is it because "Princess vs Princess" is important because Jessie catches a pokemon and these 2 does not? Is it because admins do not want to redirect hundreds of links just because of these 2 episodes? Can an admin pls give as a satisfied answer? (except for not wanting to redirect hundreds of links. this is an excuse IMO, not a valid reason).

TL;DR, Holiday Hi Jynx and Snow Way out are no different from Princess vs Princess and The Purr-fect Hero due to the many similarity and should be listed as EP065 and EP066.

Thanks for reading

 

[SnorlaxMonster]

i really do not like double standard here... despite the japanese episode having the word special episode in front of the title, these 2 are still treated as normal episodes. The next episode clip in "It's Mr. Mime Time" still shows "Holiday Hi-Jynx". The next episode clip in "Snow Way Out" still shows "Showdown at the Po-ké Corral". They still appears in re-runs between those episodes. While airing out of order, they should still be considered EP065 and EP066 respectively.

Special episodes such as these do not have the treatment of next episode clip in japan and usually only air one time unlike these 2 episodes. Flashback to "Snow Way Out" appears in BW series unlike other special which are seldom referenced.


"An Undersea Place to Call Home!" reruns in japan in the original order so no issue there. "A Fishing Connoisseur in a Fishy Competition!" is retcon and had aired in its new order ever since so no issue too.
However, "Princess vs Princess" and "The Purr-fect Hero" also do not air as intended. Despite taking place after "So Near, Yet So Farfetch'd", "Princess vs Princess" still numbered after that episode so airing out of order should not be an issue.

So why are Holiday Hi Jynx and Snow Way Out treated differently? Is it because "Princess vs Princess" is important because Jessie catches a pokemon and these 2 does not? Is it because admins do not want to redirect hundreds of links just because of these 2 episodes? Can an admin pls give as a satisfied answer? (except for not wanting to redirect hundreds of links. this is an excuse IMO, not a valid reason).

TL;DR, Holiday Hi Jynx and Snow Way out are no different from Princess vs Princess and The Purr-fect Hero due to the many similarity and should be listed as EP065 and EP066.

Thanks for reading

Yes, Holiday Hi Jynx and Snow Way out are no different from Princess vs Princess and The Purr-fect Hero. You can see that the Japanese site treats all four episodes the same way.

I've brought up the possibility of moving them before, but since that would mess with the entire established episode numbering system, which many people are used to, we have opted not to change it. Even post-original series episode have EP### redirects, so moving one of these pairs would mess with every single episode.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Maybe they should be given some number like H01 and H02, H referring to Holiday.

 

[SnorlaxMonster]

Maybe they should be given some number like H01 and H02, H referring to Holiday.

I don't think that really fixes anything.

 

[pokeant]

the japanese title card of princess vs princess also labelled it as 番外編, same as holiday hi-jynx and snow way out... there is absolutely no reason to treat the other 2 differently...

 

[Tiddlywinks]

Basically any "solution" would require moving a vast numbers of episodes--and the relinking of each one would be far worse. The long and short of it is, it's simply very unlikely to change.

 

[pokeant]

I know this topic is done, and most likely nothing will change, but they recently announce sm049 as the 1000 ep. And according to dogasu,

OS 276 (inc Porygon) + AG 192 (but no Chronicles) + DP 193 + BW 144 (no Rocket v Plasma)+ XY 146 (inc Mega Evolution specials) + SM 49 = 1,000

So basically holiday hi-jynx and snow way out are included, same with the mega specials.

 

[Force Fire]

The staff are aware, and the piece is hidden on SM049 trivia's page. Whether we will move the other episode pages to match is still very unlikely.

 

[KawaFernandes]

From my knowledge, EP052 and 053 aired regularly, as in, they weren't advertised as specials. Whereas Snow Way Out and Holiday Hi Jynx were advertised as specials. Note that this is going by the dub, since we're an English wiki.

Also, in the Holiday Hi-Jynx talk page, a decision was made not to move them four episodes around since it'd add unnecessary work. We'd have to move/edit well over 800 pages, and it's something we're just not gonna do.

Well... I know this thread is kind of.. done... already, but I want to add a few points:

- Princess vs. Princess and The Purr-fect hero first aired as a special, "もうすぐ映画公開スペシャル (Movie Premiere Coming Soon Special)", according to the official Bulbapedia list of specials, and are still counted as normal episodes...

- Holiday Hi-jynx and Snow Way Out first aired as a special, "ポケットモンスター・秋の１時間スペシャル (Pocket Monsters, Fall 1-Hour Special)", also according to the official Bulbapedia list of specials... though they aren't counted as normal episodes...

Well... while I do think the treatment these two episodes receive is unfair, due to these (and other) reasons, I also know how hard it would be to be actually FIX the numbering problem... so I kinda think there is some kind of solution that shouldn't be THAT hard to make...


- Number these episodes as "EPS01" and "EPS02"
(doesn't seem that hard to me)

I believe it's possible to move these pages to "EPS01" and "EPS02" and redirect the terms "Holiday Hi-Jynx" and "Snow Way Out" to them, also change the order of the OS episodes to include them between EP064 and EP065 (also change the progression in the end of every page to include this change) and add to its trivia page some facts, like "Due to it being rescheduled after the EP038 Incident, this episode is considered part of Pokémon: Adventures in the Orange Islands.", "This episode was meant to be EP039 (alongside EPS02 as EP040), but due to the Porygon Incident, it was aired between EP064 and EP065" and "Even though this episode aired between EP064 and EP065, it takes place sometime prior to EP039, as initially planned, since Ash's Charmander hasn't evolved yet. Airing out of order also explains the absence of Misty's Togepi and the presence of Misty's Horsea and Starmie during this episode.", which are all oddly present at EP052's and EP053's page.

- Now, why should this be important? Is it REALLY worth all the trouble?
Well... maybe... Most likely because, by numbering these episodes, we should have less problems with this:

I know this topic is done, and most likely nothing will change, but they recently announce sm049 as the 1000 ep. And according to dogasu,

So basically holiday hi-jynx and snow way out are included, same with the mega specials.

These episodes ARE actually counted officially, so they DO deserve an epicode (even if it's just a special one), as that would make this statement easier to explain in the trivia section of SM049 being the 1000th episode.

Also, by counting it as a special episode, it would make just as much sense as the Mega Evolution Specials (and technically all the other specials), which are counted in order to make SM049 the 1000th episode, thus making the explanation for that,

"The count includes all episodes broadcast during the show's regular time-slot: all regular episodes including Holiday Hi-Jynx, Snow Way Out!, Princess vs. Princess, The Purr-fect Hero, and the special episodes from Pokémon the Series: Diamond and Pearl, Pokémon the Series: Black & White, and Pokémon the Series: XY."

easier to understand, by just saying:

"The count includes all episodes broadcast during the show's regular time-slot, including the special episodes from Pokémon: the Original Series, Pokémon the Series: Diamond and Pearl, Pokémon the Series: Black & White, and Pokémon the Series: XY."

Maybe they should be given some number like H01 and H02, H referring to Holiday.

IMO, the terms "EPS01" and "EPS02", EPS referring to EPisode + Special should be better, as they recognize these episodes as part of the original series and are capable of addressing the release date issue (release/chronological order) without having to change the whole order of the epicodes (making no need to CHANGE 209 WHOLE EPICODES :/), the only thing needed is to add the special epicodes (as EPS01 and EPS02) in the OS list of episodes and update the total count of episodes to 276 to the OS, instead of 274 in the trivia section (or maybe updating to 274 episodes + 2 specials).

So, with this, I believe I've got the most optimal solution to this inconsistency problem regarding the Bulbapedia episode numbering (even though this thread is 6 years old, the problem still remains), as well as acknowledging the episodes "Holiday Hi-Jynx" and "Snow Way Out", thus explaining the official statement that SM049 is the 1000th episode of the Pokémon anime.