Generation IV Remake Speculation

[TouyaShiro]

The Z-Crystal distribution is more for Snorlax, a very iconic Kanto Pokemon, than Munchlax. It is more of the Kanto reference than a Sinnoh reference.

I guess it's just my personal belief that a Kanto-based game can't be coming next at all that makes me think that way. I have said that I believe most things to be a stretch... With that being said, I still think this point holds water if mostly based on the fact that Munchlax was one of the first Generation IV mons ever revealed. It could be a red herring, we don't know yet, but until then that's just what I'm going by.

If you want an idea of theories I inherently don't see as being true hints at Generation IV, it'd be Drampa and Turtonator. I'm sure it's been posted at least once in this thread.

 

[Ghostsoul]

The Z-Crystal distribution is more for Snorlax, a very iconic Kanto Pokemon, than Munchlax. It is more of the Kanto reference than a Sinnoh reference.

It's like saying that, for example, Prof. Juniper of Unova went to study in Johto. People will see it more of a Johto reference despite Prof. Juniper being from Unova.

Munchlax and Snorlax can easily be a reference to both.
Pokemon have been giving us a lot of Kanto recently, not to mention the Alola dex is full of Kanto Pokemon. (But it does lack Sinnoh Pokemon).
In fact, if we get Kanto remakes in this Gen, I think I'll finally say 'I'm kinda bored of Kanto'.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Frankly, I think it makes a lot more sense to just think that Gen 4 remakes will come because of the pattern of remakes rather than because of features in the game that just might be hints if you squint.

• Munchlax being distributed instead of Snorlax is probably just to keep things balanced. Remember, this gift could be picked up at any time-that would have meant players getting a Pokemon with a 540 BST before they even cleared the first trial. It could also be for convenience-new players might have no idea how to get a Munchlax from a Snorlax, so it's easier on them to give them the baby form and make it more straightforward to fill out a PokeDex. (not all kids know where to find help with that)
• Day and night overworld music-There's no way they would include a nod in something relating to the main theme. A nod should be noticeable, not something eclipsed (heh) by the main theme of the games.

Remakes for each gen just seem like an inevitability. There's always new features and just general improvements in Pokemon games that can be used to better a past game. Remaking has a lot of benefits-being able to look back on past games and find out how to do them better, make fans of an older game happy, give fans that have been out of the series a chance to jump in with something familiar-and it's been done with a reliability that makes a number of fans expect another.

As far as specific times go, I don't think there's quite a set pattern so much as a goal to have enough improvements to where it'd be worth the effort to remake a game. While there's some almost-patterns between generations and consoles, I think that's mostly just a coincidence due to the progression of generations, consoles, and general quality all moving forward at similar times. Ultimately, the best reason to remake a game is to improve it.

 

[TouyaShiro]

Frankly, I think it makes a lot more sense to just think that Gen 4 remakes will come because of the pattern of remakes rather than because of features in the game that just might be hints if you squint.

I guess I should add to my opinions - I do not believe in patterns for most things unless they've shown it to be consistent for more than 3 instances. In this case, Pokémon has not been actually consistent with their remake release schedule. FireRed & LeafGreen came before Emerald, HeartGold & SoulSilver came after Platinum, and Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire were released on the 3DS in Generation VI as opposed to what literally everyone was expecting back in Generation V - so your point about remakes being an inevitability for future Generations currently does not hold enough water in my eyes because they already broke the supposed pattern.

Munchlax being distributed instead of Snorlax is probably just to keep things balanced. Remember, this gift could be picked up at any time-that would have meant players getting a Pokemon with a 540 BST before they even cleared the first trial.

With enough determination, they can still acquire a Snorlax very early if they wanted to - it's a friendship based evolution, after all. The reason I believe this to be a greater hint than any other, aside from the fact that Torchic fulfilled a similar role (that at least had an explanation since it represented France's national animal), is because I had to ask myself - why Munchlax over literally any other Pokémon to distribute as an early bonus, and why its evolution for an exclusive Z-Move, above any other Pokémon? Keep in mind, the only others that are obtainable in the game are Eevium Z, Aloraichium Z, Pikanium Z, Incinium Z, Decidium Z, Primarium Z and Tapunium Z.
Of course, it could be hinting at Kanto as well as Sinnoh, I won't deny that, but as I said above, why would they remake Kanto a third time? Unless they were really ballsy, would the risk be worth it?

I have already said that I believe most things to be a stretch in terms of Sinnoh "hints", so I remain cautious about believing them fully as I always do with rumours and speculation, but I wanted to make it clear that there are certain things which I believe not to be necessarily 100% the truth, but at least more true and believable than other hints that people see. There's a reason why Cloud came as a huge shock to pretty much everyone in the Super Smash Bros. community, and heck, the fact that Magearna exists was a mild version of the one that would ensue when Sun & Moon were first revealed, after the anime made a point to put so much emphasis on Zygarde - they subverted everyone's expectations of what they thought possible, and in Magearna's case, threw out the red herring that was Zygarde and Pokémon Z.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I guess I should add to my opinions - I do not believe in patterns for most things unless they've shown it to be consistent for more than 3 instances. In this case, Pokémon has not been actually consistent with their remake release schedule. FireRed & LeafGreen came before Emerald, HeartGold & SoulSilver came after Platinum, and Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire were released on the 3DS in Generation VI as opposed to what literally everyone was expecting back in Generation V - so your point about remakes being an inevitability for future Generations currently does not hold enough water in my eyes because they already broke the supposed pattern.

I realize my wording was unclear with this statement, but I made it pretty clear later in the post-I don't believe that there's any kind of pattern in release schedules.

As far as specific times go, I don't think there's quite a set pattern so much as a goal to have enough improvements to where it'd be worth the effort to remake a game. While there's some almost-patterns between generations and consoles, I think that's mostly just a coincidence due to the progression of generations, consoles, and general quality all moving forward at similar times. Ultimately, the best reason to remake a game is to improve it.

All I mean by pattern is that they make remakes in the same order that the original generations were released-the first generation was remade first, the second generation second, and so on.

(also, with only three pairs of remakes, there's no way any similarity amongst the three can match your standard of a pattern, because it's impossible to have more than three instances)

With enough determination, they can still acquire a Snorlax very early if they wanted to - it's a friendship based evolution, after all. The reason I believe this to be a greater hint than any other, aside from the fact that Torchic fulfilled a similar role (that at least had an explanation since it represented France's national animal), is because I had to ask myself - why Munchlax over literally any other Pokémon to distribute as an early bonus, and why its evolution for an exclusive Z-Move, above any other Pokémon? Keep in mind, the only others that are obtainable in the game are Eevium Z, Aloraichium Z, Pikanium Z, Incinium Z, Decidium Z, Primarium Z and Tapunium Z.
Of course, it could be hinting at Kanto as well as Sinnoh, I won't deny that, but as I said above, why would they remake Kanto a third time? Unless they were really ballsy, would the risk be worth it?

And with enough determination, people can evolve their starter Pokemon before they even get to the first trial. That doesn't mean that they'll just forsake difficulty and give people powerful Pokemon at the start-not everyone grinds to get stronger.

This is all assuming that Z-Moves are supposed to be a hint towards remakes, which isn't a sure thing. Gen 3 only had eight Pokemon capable of Mega Evolution compared to Gen 1's ten, but the shortage didn't show that Gen 3 was being neglected in favor of Gen 1. New features are primarily meant to be new features. They could have hints in them, but they shouldn't be assumed to have hints.

I have already said that I believe most things to be a stretch in terms of Sinnoh "hints", so I remain cautious about believing them fully as I always do with rumours and speculation, but I wanted to make it clear that there are certain things which I believe not to be necessarily 100% the truth, but at least more true and believable than other hints that people see. There's a reason why Cloud came as a huge shock to pretty much everyone in the Super Smash Bros. community, and heck, the fact that Magearna exists was a mild version of the one that would ensue when Sun & Moon were first revealed, after the anime made a point to put so much emphasis on Zygarde - they subverted everyone's expectations of what they thought possible, and in Magearna's case, threw out the red herring that was Zygarde and Pokémon Z.

I'm kind of confused as to why you're bringing this up-neither one of doubts the possibility of Gen 4 remakes. We're just discusses what we consider to be hints. And if Gen 4 remakes are made, fans opinions of it are going to be their own opinions of it. If one person considered something a hint and another didn't, but both were still expecting remakes, neither one is going to be surprised-where the idea comes from isn't the surprise, it's the idea itself.

While Pokemon Z was definitely speculated by fans, it seems to me that's more because of the relationship with legendary trios and titles in the Gen 3/4 games. (Pokemon Grey was speculated as well, after all) And the prevalence of Zygarde cells in the anime doesn't seem like a planned red herring-there's plenty of differences between the games and anime, and not everyone who plays the games watches the anime.

 

[TouyaShiro]

I'm kind of confused as to why you're bringing this up-neither one of doubts the possibility of Gen 4 remakes. We're just discusses what we consider to be hints. And if Gen 4 remakes are made, fans opinions of it are going to be their own opinions of it. If one person considered something a hint and another didn't, but both were still expecting remakes, neither one is going to be surprised-where the idea comes from isn't the surprise, it's the idea itself.

Well, I guess I should be a bit clearer in this regard, too: As of right now, I don't actually expect there to be remakes in any aspect, Kanto, Sinnoh or what have you. I wanted to point out what I did because if it were to happen, the points I made above are the most solid reasons that I would personally believe for it to be true - none of this Shirona/Akagi white/red Drampa/Turtonator stuff. In any case, I'm sure I've made everything else clear enough for us to reach a mutual understanding of each others' opinions here.

While Pokemon Z was definitely speculated by fans, it seems to me that's more because of the relationship with legendary trios and titles in the Gen 3/4 games. (Pokemon Grey was speculated as well, after all) And the prevalence of Zygarde cells in the anime doesn't seem like a planned red herring-there's plenty of differences between the games and anime, and not everyone who plays the games watches the anime.

With this point, it's worth noting that it was speculation even on the fans' part to call Zygarde a true counterpart to Xerneas and Yveltal. Kyurem's a rather unique case in Legendary trios since, while they did explain the connection between the other Tao duo, it may have only come about in the way that it did due to executive meddling of all things - supposedly B2W2 only came about because Iwata told 'em to do something different instead of a traditional third version, so god knows what plans they originally had for Kyurem...

As for the prevalence of Zygarde in the anime and its differences to the games, no doubt that it may not have been intentional to become a red herring, but keep in mind that its initial reveal was back at a time where people had formed their final opinions on XY, where a lot of people thought some ends were left loose (Zygarde being most notable, among other things) and that it wasn't an overall powerful entry compared to even its remake cousins in the same Generation in terms of aspects like story. Of course the majority was gonna suspect a Pokémon Z and get potentially hype for a "fix" to the Kalos region, especially when the anime makes it a point to call the season centring around on it Pocket Monsters XY&Z. People were gonna take the bait regardless. My point about it being a red herring, even if it wasn't intentional, was how Magearna threw everything for a loop prior to the Sun & Moon reveal teaser - nobody knew what to think even though it was logical to believe that a new game was coming based on that reveal alone and various other movies which did similar things like Pokémon Ranger & The Temple of the Sea and Zoroark: Master of Illusions. It's for this reason (and how much they changed the formula in Sun & Moon itself) that I don't try to speculate on things like I believe it to be 100% true with Game Freak these days, they've broken so many conventions and revealed info in such a sneaky way that it's basically impossible to be telling what they're thinking - which goes back to the parallel I drew with Masahiro Sakurai and the Cloud reveal, since the very prospect in itself has been a joke for years before it became real, and the insight into this decision only really comes to light in his Famitsu columns.

With that being said, we don't know exactly how much insider info the anime production team had when it came to Sun & Moon itself, so we'll never truly know if that red herring was planned or not...

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Well, I guess I should be a bit clearer in this regard, too: As of right now, I don't actually expect there to be remakes in any aspect, Kanto, Sinnoh or what have you. I wanted to point out what I did because if it were to happen, the points I made above are the most solid reasons that I would personally believe for it to be true - none of this Shirona/Akagi white/red Drampa/Turtonator stuff. In any case, I'm sure I've made everything else clear enough for us to reach a mutual understanding of each others' opinions here.

Oh, I see! Sorry for misunderstanding, I have problems with clarity sometimes. Yeah, likening Drampa and Turtonator based on color alone is a pretty extreme stretch.

With this point, it's worth noting that it was speculation even on the fans' part to call Zygarde a true counterpart to Xerneas and Yveltal. Kyurem's a rather unique case in Legendary trios since, while they did explain the connection between the other Tao duo, it may have only come about in the way that it did due to executive meddling of all things - supposedly B2W2 only came about because Iwata told 'em to do something different instead of a traditional third version, so god knows what plans they originally had for Kyurem...

That's a good point! (I hadn't played the games when they were first out, so I don't know for sure-did a similar thing happen with Rayquaza and Giratina, or did in-story events confirm they were part of trios as well)

Huh, that's really interesting! It explains the differences in the story Lacunosa Town tells and the story given in BW2.

As for the prevalence of Zygarde in the anime and its differences to the games, no doubt that it may not have been intentional to become a red herring, but keep in mind that its initial reveal was back at a time where people had formed their final opinions on XY, where a lot of people thought some ends were left loose (Zygarde being most notable, among other things) and that it wasn't an overall powerful entry compared to even its remake cousins in the same Generation in terms of aspects like story. Of course the majority was gonna suspect a Pokémon Z and get potentially hype for a "fix" to the Kalos region, especially when the anime makes it a point to call the season centring around on it Pocket Monsters XY&Z. People were gonna take the bait regardless. My point about it being a red herring, even if it wasn't intentional, was how Magearna threw everything for a loop prior to the Sun & Moon reveal teaser - nobody knew what to think even though it was logical to believe that a new game was coming based on that reveal alone and various other movies which did similar things like Pokémon Ranger & The Temple of the Sea and Zoroark: Master of Illusions. It's for this reason (and how much they changed the formula in Sun & Moon itself) that I don't try to speculate on things like I believe it to be 100% true with Game Freak these days, they've broken so many conventions and revealed info in such a sneaky way that it's basically impossible to be telling what they're thinking - which goes back to the parallel I drew with Masahiro Sakurai and the Cloud reveal, since the very prospect in itself has been a joke for years before it became real, and the insight into this decision only really comes to light in his Famitsu columns.

With that being said, we don't know exactly how much insider info the anime production team had when it came to Sun & Moon itself, so we'll never truly know if that red herring was planned or not...

That's definitely a good point-I hadn't been considering how it related to the timing of previous games as well.

Oh, and going with your examples, wasn't Munchlax also similarly revealed in Destiny: Deoxys? (although all this talk of breaking patterns is giving me a hard time deciding if I think the gift is a clue for or against remakes or just a coincidence still)

 

[Esserise]

but as I said above, why would they remake Kanto a third time? Unless they were really ballsy, would the risk be worth it?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Kanto game =/= Kanto remake.

while they did explain the connection between the other Tao duo, it may have only come about in the way that it did due to executive meddling of all things - supposedly B2W2 only came about because Iwata told 'em to do something different instead of a traditional third version, so god knows what plans they originally had for Kyurem...

My guess is it still would have been Black Kyurem and White Kyurem. "Gray Version" was always going to consist of two games (for the purposes of the Key system, which they'd originally wanted to include in BW), it just wasn't until later that they decided to make them sequels rather than retreads.

Huh, that's really interesting! It explains the differences in the story Lacunosa Town tells and the story given in BW2.

I'm veering off-topic here, but I just can't resist putting on my pedantic anorak hat because I see this get mentioned from time to time and I'm never sure why. B2W2 still reference the thing about Kyurem eating people and Pokémon that wander by the Giant Chasm, and they still mention the meteor story. It's just that in B2W2, Juniper hears the story and speculates that what the people who lived in the area long ago thought was a "meteor" may have actually been Kyurem in the form of a Dragon Stone (like what Reshiram and Zekrom revert to), having been flung off in the distance when the original dragon split. I don't think they had any other backstory in mind for Kyurem - I'm pretty sure they would have always peeled back the Lacunosa myth to reveal that it was a Dragon Stone instead of a meteor. Kyurem was always pretty obviously a remnant of the original dragon.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I'm veering off-topic here, but I just can't resist putting on my pedantic anorak hat because I see this get mentioned from time to time and I'm never sure why. B2W2 still reference the thing about Kyurem eating people and Pokémon that wander by the Giant Chasm, and they still mention the meteor story. It's just that in B2W2, Juniper hears the story and speculates that what the people who lived in the area long ago thought was a "meteor" may have actually been Kyurem in the form of a Dragon Stone (like what Reshiram and Zekrom revert to), having been flung off in the distance when the original dragon split. I don't think they had any other backstory in mind for Kyurem - I'm pretty sure they would have always peeled back the Lacunosa myth to reveal that it was a Dragon Stone instead of a meteor. Kyurem was always pretty obviously a remnant of the original dragon.

Well, in my case, it's because I totally forgot she had mentioned that. (Small info always seems to slip past me... I remembered that Lacunosa Town still mentioned the story, but I thought it just wasn't brought up otherwise) I think the fact that we don't see Kyurem's stone in the game for ourselves might make people more forgetful about it, since that makes it harder to tie the two stories together in one's mind.

But yeah, I was overlooking stuff already included in BW like Kyurem looking wounded and fitting into a Fire/Electric/Ice pattern repeated throughout the games.

 

[TouyaShiro]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Kanto game =/= Kanto remake.

And I don't want either. Guess I should have pointed that out, too... Though to be honest I didn't bring it up at all simply because I was kinda tired of that thread, to be honest here.

My guess is it still would have been Black Kyurem and White Kyurem. "Gray Version" was always going to consist of two games (for the purposes of the Key system, which they'd originally wanted to include in BW), it just wasn't until later that they decided to make them sequels rather than retreads.

I'd agree with the Kyurem part, though I think personally I'd have believed that the Key system might have originally been repurposed to link with Black & White themselves in some fashion rather than between two different versions of Grey during whatever original plans they had for what would become B2W2, and that maybe they made it more similar to their original concepts for the Key system when the decision was made to make them B2W2. I'm just not sure how probable it would have been with Game Freak coming up with the idea to make a third version two games instead of one, at least not before B2W2's reveal, without intervention.

I think the fact that we don't see Kyurem's stone in the game for ourselves might make people more forgetful about it, since that makes it harder to tie the two stories together in one's mind.

From a technical standpoint, do we know if a theoretical Grey would have run with the concept of the DNA Splicers before B2W2 were a thing, with the above in mind? We know from the data that it takes the place of the God Stone found unused in BW's item index...

In any case, this has gone well off the beaten path. Before moving back to the main topic, I may as well point out what Tech wanted to know about Rayquaza and Giratina - they were in a similar boat to Kyurem, and similarly had their connections to their trio explained through their third version focus games - Rayquaza being a mediator of Kyogre and Groudon's fights, and Giratina coming in to take away whoever wants to disrupt the balance of the world parallel to its own - and doing so when Cyrus attempts to remake the entire universe using Dialga and Palkia's power at Spear Pillar.

The question would be at this point, how do they take this story and expand and/or retcon it in a way that fits with the others before it? Do they do a Distortion/Platinum/Turnback Episode sort of sidegame story for Giratina in the postgame? Do they give each of these three new forms, or at this point, new Z-Moves? I'm not sure about it myself since it seems to me that they have a giant amount of lore already for these three, as well as its trio master, Arceus, and unlike Team Magma and Team Aqua, Team Galactic already has well-established personalities and motivation.

 

[King Robert]

If they ever announce it, I'll get it. I would, however, hope they ditch the EXP system from Sun and Moon...

 

[Morningstar]

An interesting point on the exp system from Black and White is that it gives more exp the greater the level difference is. Which meant that if Sun and Moonhad level 100 Blissey fights like what Oras facilitated, then they would yield more experience than in the latter games. Black and White also had Audino almost everywhere at this point triggered by the same methods in Or/As

However I think they used the exp system in the first place because they actually have a reward for pokemon that reached the peak. Meaning that while they can make catching up teammates that lagged behind and make evolving the pokemon for the pokedex easier, they can't really risk something like that be easily handed out.

Thus we came to a problem for Game freak. Secret bases allowed players to share their teams and allow them to be fought by anyone who scans the QR codes. Which means that Game Freak put the power to set encounters in the player's hands. The players in turn used and abused it to make the bases powerleveling spots due to taking the pokemon with the highest base EXP yield (in this case Blissey, although Audino might also be a good substitute) at the highest level and allowed them to be distributed to those that would use such spots to grind their way to 100 within a matter of a few days.

Another factor in this would be the interactions between BW's exp method and the Triple Battles introduced in those games. If a single Pokemon faints first that would also mean that dimishing returns would come into play. But if all three pokemon were simultaneously knocked out then that is circumvented.

All of this means that they might make Hyper Training mutually exclusive with methods of getting to 100, and also means that if any feature of Sinnoh's Underground that enables custom trainer battles exists, then they might wind up on the cutting room floor.

 

[Esserise]

I think the EXP system they end up using depends on what they want to do with a particular game. BW and SM are both more story-driven than any of the other games, so it makes sense for them to calibrate the EXP system of those games in such a way that encourages progression instead of grinding in one spot for a long time.

In XY, they included an enormous Pokédex selection and differing encounter tables for regular grass and flower fields. They wanted you to catch lots and lots of Pokémon, and because of this, they adjusted the Exp. Share so as to make it easier to train up many team members, and made it so that capturing Pokémon now yielded experience just as defeating them would. (ORAS was of course going to follow the same engine regardless, but even it makes sense in this light - another goal they had for Gen VI was to make it so that the player could complete the National Pokédex using only Gen VI games. Now, I do think that Blissey Bases weren't really a necessarily intended use, but regardless, having the Exp. All certainly helps with completing the ND since that process requires a lot of evolving.) But more importantly, reverting to the flat EXP system from the pre-Gen V games played a bit more closely into the need to grind if you were to raise a lot of Pokémon at once - while the Exp. All was a means of speeding up that process.

Obviously, aspects of the Gen VI EXP system have persisted into Gen VII. But the calculation system - whether it's scaled or flat, seems to depend on the direction they want the game in question to have, whether it's something more driven, or something more casual.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I am actually hoping more for Kanto sequels than Sinnoh remakes. That's so we can finally have an updated, not remade, Kanto and maybe Johto.

Sinnoh remakes feel still too early for me despite Platinum being 8 years old.

Why have another Kanto game?

 

[Ghostsoul]

Why have another Kanto game?

I would like to see a Kanto and a Johto remake together in one game. In the Johto games, you can travel to Kanto in the post-game so why not do it the other way around, going through adjusted Kanto and Johto plots. It could also be a way of bringing back Arceus into the game (referring to the Sinjoh Ruins in HGSS, if they don't do something proper for Arceus in the DPP remakes).
Around the time of the 25th anniversary, where it will be time for both FRLG and HGSS to be remade.

Not sure if it's possible, but it would sure be interesting.

 

[RileyXY1]

I found yet another Sinnoh remake hint, and it's in the anime, in SM010. The music played during Ash's match against Hala is the Sinnoh Gym Leader music, instead of the Kahuna Battle music.

 

[Esserise]

I found yet another Sinnoh remake hint, and it's in the anime, in SM010. The music played during Ash's match against Hala is the Sinnoh Gym Leader music, instead of the Kahuna Battle music.

That's not a Sinnoh "remake hint."

 

[TechSkylander1518]

The anime often differs greatly from the games-just look at the roles of characters like Misty and Brock. (also, were there any hints for previous remakes in the anime? I'm genuinely asking, I have no clue)

 

[TouyaShiro]

The anime reuses a *lot* of music from various Generations. In the SM anime we had a Meloetta song cameo! It doesn't mean anything really, especially since they've already used Kalos music in addition to those other examples.

 

[SinnohEevee]

I disagree with making the creation trio UBs. UBs are like aliens, they are not related to the Pokémon world, while the creation trio are the ones behind its existence.

I want Sinnoh sequels. The story talks about other dimensions. Maybe Cyrus will try to use the powers of UBs.

I don't like fusion as a game mechanic, but Cyrus is an insane guy, he might try it.