What did you NOT like about Sun&Moon?

[Morningstar]

I'm not at all interested in challenges that aren't so much difficult as long. EV training is an excellent example of this - it never was difficult in itself, but it was damn tedious. Now ... well, ok, it's not exactly fun but at least it's quicker and more of the legwork can be done in-game instead of on Bulbapedia. Which brings me to making a little contribution of my own to the thread - I don't like that I was about halfway through Sun before the game told me how I could check the EV graph. Hours of the game telling me several times where to go next, when it was obvious, and it takes that long to tell me how to find something that's not at all obvious. Here's an idea - next time just put it in the Trainer's School where it might be useful instead of reprising the same vague explanation of Paralysis that's been in every game

I agree, but at the same time, I feel like it makes sense. The Trainer's School is supposed to teach the basics, and I don't think Min-Maxing stats would be considered basic knowledge (In a general sense at least. Competitive battling I'd consider to be more advanced than the point of the game where you'd find the schools) Same reason thy don't have the Potential/IV guy anywhere relevant to the plot but instead near the Battle Frontier or its counterparts.

With that said, I think Super Training, which also had a way to view IVs was introduced preety early on. I'd consider it another case of "one step forward two steps back" if it prevented you form viewing the EVs until the point where you learned how, but it'd still be close to that.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Spoiler

Why the fuck can't I just give Lillie a pokemon. She spends so much time whining about not being a tough trainer like you and Hau. Seriously Hau? So why can't I just give her one pokemon they never explain why non trainers exist in the pokemon world given how little pokeballs cost and having a non trainer character fight travel with you makes it more egregious. Like I understand early game she doesn't want to fight but she also doesn't want people to fight for her. Seriously Lillie take one of my extras no skin off my bones. I wouldn't be mad if it weren't for the fact that they spend so much time on this.

 

[Ereshkigal]

Spoiler

Why the fuck can't I just give Lillie a pokemon. She spends so much time whining about not being a tough trainer like you and Hau. Seriously Hau? So why can't I just give her one pokemon they never explain why non trainers exist in the pokemon world given how little pokeballs cost and having a non trainer character fight travel with you makes it more egregious. Like I understand early game she doesn't want to fight but she also doesn't want people to fight for her. Seriously Lillie take one of my extras no skin off my bones. I wouldn't be mad if it weren't for the fact that they spend so much time on this.

Spoiler

Lillie actively opposes Pokemon battles. She says as much in a very early conversation with you. So you can't give her Pokemon because she wouldn't accept one. Personally, I would have loved to have her as a companion we taught how to catch Pokemon and rather than the player character learning about being a trainer, the Player learned the basics by teaching them to Lillie.

And I think not wanting people to fight for her is because of her mother.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

@Ereshkigal

Spoiler

*passively opposes pokemon battles and I'm aware as I've shown here "I understand early game she doesn't want to fight". The point is even though she apparently had issues with battling she found you and Hau to be brave and heroic instead of brutish. She could have became like the people she admired quite easily that's the issue.

 

[Ereshkigal]

@PhilosophyPhlare

Spoiler

She's an active pacifist. And not of the technical variety. She doesn't train Pokemon or want people fighting for her with them because she opposes the fighting. Whether or not she finds others heroic for standing up for their beliefs in a way that agrees with their philosophies does not necessarily mean she will abandon her own. Rather, it shows her maturity that she is capable of recognizing the validity of philosophies other than her own.

Keep in mind she does a lot before the character even meets her that requires some bravery, such as stealing Cosmog. Despite her opposition to violence, she has proven she has the capacity to stand up for herself. It just takes a bit for her to accept that others standing up for her with violence is also acceptable.

Her character arc is not about learning pacifism is wrong, but about learning nuances to pacifism she had not considered before. It's not that well written, I'll admit.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Spoiler

"It's not that well written, I'll admit." Well I guess I'm changing my gripe to this and the series' insistence on positive reinforcement. If you're right about the arch then I'm not only one who misunderstood it seeing as I saw a youtube personality who I don't think is incompetent suggest Lillie should be champion of Kanto in a sequel game. I think what made it confusing is the part about not liking battles was brought up like twice early game so it made it seemed like it stopped mattering because it wasn't brought up explicately mid to late game

Also Game Freak you finally make a IV raising mechanic that works at level 100 like I wanted but the same game you made league rematches lower level so getting level 100 pokemon is a much bigger pain.

 

[Soki]

Just FYI, spoiler tags are unneeded for this discussion, spoilers are to be expected in a thread like this. You're free to keep using them if you want though, just saying that you don't have to

Some more nitpicky things from me:
1) So many Oranguru in the overworld, same with Stufful too. I just dislike it when one Pokémon is a lot more represented than the others in the game, especially with Oranguru since it's a version exclusive and I don't think I've seen even one Passimian in the overworld. Don't pick favourites like that GF, that's not nice. (except if in Sun all the Oranguru are replaced with Passimian, if that's the case I take it back)

2) Kukui's team being so full of Sun exclusives. I first thought it was kinda cool and assumed that his team in Sun would have all the Moon counterparts. But nope, same team. I know that the Moon counterparts are represented on the teams of the E4, but since Kukui is sort of the champion, it makes it feel as if the Sun exclusives are 'better' in some way and it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not using the Moon counterparts in Sun feels like a wasted opportunity to me, I mean what's cooler than a champion using mons you can't get yourself? At least in my opinion that would've been cool.

 

[Envoy]

Just FYI, spoiler tags are unneeded for this discussion, spoilers are to be expected in a thread like this. You're free to keep using them if you want though, just saying that you don't have to

Some more nitpicky things from me:
1) So many Oranguru in the overworld, same with Stufful too. I just dislike it when one Pokémon is a lot more represented than the others in the game, especially with Oranguru since it's a version exclusive and I don't think I've seen even one Passimian in the overworld. Don't pick favourites like that GF, that's not nice. (except if in Sun all the Oranguru are replaced with Passimian, if that's the case I take it back)

2) Kukui's team being so full of Sun exclusives. I first thought it was kinda cool and assumed that his team in Sun would have all the Moon counterparts. But nope, same team. I know that the Moon counterparts are represented on the teams of the E4, but since Kukui is sort of the champion, it makes it feel as if the Sun exclusives are 'better' in some way and it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not using the Moon counterparts in Sun feels like a wasted opportunity to me, I mean what's cooler than a champion using mons you can't get yourself? At least in my opinion that would've been cool.

1) Game Freak has always played favorites *cough*Charizard*cough* It's one of the things I hate about them. And no, Pokemon Sun doesn't replace the Oranguru with Passimian. They're still Oranguru.

2) To be fair to Kukui, the version exclusives in Sun objectively are better in combat than the Moon exclusives. Lycanroc is perhaps the most hilariously lopsided example of favoritism GF has put out since the Kanto Starters (still bitter about Charizard.) Midday gets an exclusive priority Rock move while midnight gets....Counter. Midday gets two usable stats in Atk and Spe while Midnight gets to be more 'balanced' (read: mediocre on a good day) in every stat. And Sandslash-A actually needs Ninetales-A to be usable at all, while Ninetales-A can work on her own. The only time this is flipped is with Braviary and Mandibuzz, as the latter is a legitimately good wall while the former is an underpowered attacker, in the grand scheme of things. It's less an issue of the Pokemon on Kukui's team and more an issue of the version exclusive distribution in the games. It's almost as if GF itself heavily favored Sun over Moon.

 

[LadySasaki]

Back in my day, we had to deal with dial-up Internet! I couldn't even call your Auntie Mab if one of the sprouts was browsing the World Wide Web! Why should today's youngsters get to fiddle on the computer and play their video games and call their friends all at the same time!? Why, they don't even call their friends! You can just send e-mails to them with their phones now! Why would anyone buy a darned phone if they weren't ever gonna use it to talk to--

That's an inaccurate comparison. This is not a 'back in my day' complaint. This is a 'they took something that required you to use your brain and made it so you don't have to use your brain' complaint. Learning the type chart through time, trial and error is (was) part of the fun of the game.

Maybe it wouldn't have stood out quite so much in another gen, but in this gen, where the first in only 4 islands in basically a giant unskippable tutorial, it feels unbearably handholdy. I repeat: I wouldn't have a problem with it if they'd only made it optional.

If you liked it, good for you. And if it helped a newbie, good for them. I mean that non sarcastically - I want this franchise to go on for a long time and anything the audience likes, I can learn to live with because its giving my favourite series in the world sales and longevity. But I didn't like it, and this thread is called 'what didn't you like about SM', so *meekly shrugs*

They've hardly "done a 180" and started portraying Mega Evolution as some cruel mistreatment.

Um...

"Gyarados(Mega): Mega Evolution also affects its brain, leaving no other function except its destructive instinct to burn everything to cinders.

Aerodactyl(Mega): When it Mega Evolves, it becomes more vicious than ever before. Some say that’s because its excess of power is causing it pain.

Salamence(Mega): Mega Evolution fuels its brutality, and it may even turn on the Trainer who raised it. It’s been dubbed “the blood-soaked crescent.”

Metagross(Mega): Mega Evolution stimulated its brain. It emerged as a ruthless Pokémon that will clutch at any means of ensuring its victories.

Kangaskhan(Mega): Thanks to Mega Evolution, its child grows. But as the child is good only at fighting and nothing else, its mother feels uneasy about its future."

Nah, I stand by my comment. This is creepy, and a complete change to the 'friendship is magic! happy bond time! yay!' message that accompanied Megas in te 6th gen. I know Sun/Moon had some pretty dark dex entries as a whole, but combined with Gamefreak suddenly unceremoniously shunting Megas into the postgame, I really wonder if they're working up to phasing them out :/

 

[TechSkylander1518]

This is a 'they took something that required you to use your brain and made it so you don't have to use your brain' complaint. Learning the type chart through time, trial and error is (was) part of the fun of the game.

The type chart has always been given to players. Multiple NPCs would be around to explain type matchups, including the gym guy who was there for most major challenges you'd face, and there were features in Gens 4 and 5 that let players check the effectiveness of moves. Gen 7 just makes it more apparent.

 

[Esserise]

That's an inaccurate comparison. This is not a 'back in my day' complaint. This is a 'they took something that required you to use your brain and made it so you don't have to use your brain' complaint. Learning the type chart through time, trial and error is (was) part of the fun of the game.

Doing it that way was also entirely optional. Maybe not immediately back when access to the Internet wasn't as ubiquitous, but certainly as time has gone on. There's never been anything stopping anyone from Googling a type chart. The strategy guides include them. The Pokétch let you test moves. Teachy TV also offered a matchup chart in battle, if I remember right.

Regardless, my point was more of a criticism of how your original post said this:

> "why should the next generation get to use a cheat sheet instead of flexing their brains?"

As if them making things easier for new players is somehow a retro-injustice against us who had to play the games with more limited technical capabilities. You seem to be using a different tone in your most recent post:

> "And if it helped a newbie, good for them."

"Gyarados(Mega): Mega Evolution also affects its brain, leaving no other function except its destructive instinct to burn everything to cinders.

Regular Gyarados:

> Yellow: "Brutally vicious and enormously destructive. Known for totally destroying cities in ancient times."

> Silver: "Once it appears, it goes on a rampage. It remains enraged until it demolishes everything around it."

> Ruby: "When Magikarp evolves into Gyarados, its brain cells undergo a structural transformation. It is said that this transformation is to blame for this Pokémon's wildly violent nature."

> Sapphire: "Once Gyarados goes on a rampage, its ferociously violent blood doesn't calm until it has burned everything down. There are records of this Pokémon's rampages lasting a whole month."

Aerodactyl(Mega): When it Mega Evolves, it becomes more vicious than ever before. Some say that’s because its excess of power is causing it pain.

"SOME SAY"

"Some" people also say this about Starmie:

> Moon: "Its unusual body shape, reminiscent of abstract art, led local people to spread rumors that this Pokémon may be an invader from outer space."

Doesn't mean it's true.

Salamence(Mega): Mega Evolution fuels its brutality, and it may even turn on the Trainer who raised it. It’s been dubbed “the blood-soaked crescent.”

Regular Salamence:

> Emerald: "After many long years, its cellular structure underwent a sudden mutation to grow wings. When angered, it loses all thought and rampages out of control."

> FireRed/LeafGreen: "It becomes uncontrollable if enraged. It destroys everything with shredding claws and fire."

Metagross(Mega): Mega Evolution stimulated its brain. It emerged as a ruthless Pokémon that will clutch at any means of ensuring its victories.

Regular Metagross:

> Sapphire: "Metagross is the result of two Metang achieving fusion. When hunting, this Pokémon pins the prey to the ground under its massive body. It then eats the helpless victim using the large mouth on its stomach."

Hell, that's actually "darker" than its Mega Evolution's entry - the Mega Evolution entry is essentially just saying it's now a pragmatist that likes winning. "Ruthless" doesn't even necessarily have to have a connotation of physical violence. It can be used to describe somebody who is fiercely driven to achieve their goals.

Kangaskhan(Mega): Thanks to Mega Evolution, its child grows. But as the child is good only at fighting and nothing else, its mother feels uneasy about its future."

As any parent does. Consider its Mega Evolution's other Pokédex entry, which is much more optimistic:

> Sun: "Mega Kangaskhan's strength derives from the mother's happiness about her child's growth. Watching it grow up keeps her spirits high."

I really wonder if they're working up to phasing them out :/

They're not. They'd have done it already if they were going to.

 

[dragon_nataku]

I personally liked the "not effective" and "super effective" notes, cause Pokemon keep changing types over the gens and they keep changing what's effective vs what and Pokemon games are the things I play when I want a break from games that require me to think. So I personally enjoyed giving my brain a rest and having the game remind me what's good vs what.

On the other hand I super-agree with everyone who said that there should be an option to turn that off. Some people like remembering that stuff, and some of us can't be arsed, and if you could turn it off then both camps would be happy.

 

[SinnohEevee]

Half of the Mega Stones are absent and most of the rest require 64 BP each.

 

[winstein]

I don't have much to contribute in terms of things I don't really like about Sun/Moon, but I have to say that reading through this makes me think that X and Y are masterpieces compared to this game. Perhaps my only complaint is that Poke Pelago is pretty slow, even if I can let the activities run for a set amount of time.

2) To be fair to Kukui, the version exclusives in Sun objectively are better in combat than the Moon exclusives. Lycanroc is perhaps the most hilariously lopsided example of favoritism GF has put out since the Kanto Starters (still bitter about Charizard.) Midday gets an exclusive priority Rock move while midnight gets....Counter. Midday gets two usable stats in Atk and Spe while Midnight gets to be more 'balanced' (read: mediocre on a good day) in every stat. And Sandslash-A actually needs Ninetales-A to be usable at all, while Ninetales-A can work on her own. The only time this is flipped is with Braviary and Mandibuzz, as the latter is a legitimately good wall while the former is an underpowered attacker, in the grand scheme of things. It's less an issue of the Pokemon on Kukui's team and more an issue of the version exclusive distribution in the games. It's almost as if GF itself heavily favored Sun over Moon.

Interesting perspective, because I've thought that the Moon exclusives are better. The Ultra Beasts exclusive in Moon are more adaptable in combat due to Pheromosa's great mixed stats and Celesteela's balanced stats, Lunala has better STAB compared to Solgaleo and Drampa has a very wide movepool as opposed to Turtonator's narrower one (and Shell Trap is not as easy to use). There's Lycanroc (Day), who is definitely a better attacker with its higher Speed.

Come to think of it, you got a point because when we look at it in-game wise, the Pokemon exclusive to it are better: both Fossils can be offensive, Ninetales' offensive STAB is better (and is reasonably fast), and Braviary and Passimian are both offensively-inclined. Whereas in Moon, Archeops is the only offensively-inclined fossil, Sandslash is not as fast though it's better defensively, while Mandibuzz and Oranguru are more defensively-inclined. Lycanroc (Night) is not as powerful.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

Jesus christ festival plaza is so goddamn lame compared to join avenue.

 

[Boss1708]

Ultra Beasts. I disliked them from the beginning, but they were "passable" for me until the datamine revealed they are... actual Pokemon. They really, really don´t look or feel like Pokemon to me, and this kinda messes my whole perception of the game.

And no, "well, just don´t use them then" is a terrible solution for this issue, because other people online do use them constantly. So you get to face them and battle them, even if you decide to ignore them yourself...

 

[Silktree]

Ultra Beasts. I disliked them from the beginning, byt they were "passable" for me until the datamine revealed they are... actual Pokemon. They really, really don´t look or feel like Pokemon to me, and this kinda messes my whole perception of the game.

And no, "well, just don´t use them then" is a terrible solution for this issue, because other people online do use them constantly. So you get to face them and battle them, even if you decide to ignore them yourself...

I have to agree with this. I like Nihilego, but the others don't really add anything to the lore and feel like a cheap way to add competitive Pokemon to the metagame.

Granted, Mega Evolution was pretty cheap and forced, too. Hopefully the number of Ultra Beasts won't be increased.

 

[CynthiaLover]

Ultra Beasts. I disliked them from the beginning, byt they were "passable" for me until the datamine revealed they are... actual Pokemon. They really, really don´t look or feel like Pokemon to me, and this kinda messes my whole perception of the game.

And no, "well, just don´t use them then" is a terrible solution for this issue, because other people online do use them constantly. So you get to face them and battle them, even if you decide to ignore them yourself...

I'm inclined to agree with you. If the UBs were just like demonic bosses or something and not other dimension Pokemon that can be caught like any other Mons, then I could swallow them more easily. While I'm the type who generally uses the "just don't use them" mentality, I do know that's not enough, as they're everywhere now. The recent VGC top 16 charts showed that almost every team had at least one (which is why I give the winner great props, as his team didn't have Tapus or UBs, or even Mons that are considered "staples" in tournaments). It's also how I feel about Alolan Forms. Instead of making either group, they could've devoted a lot of attention on making genuine new Pokemon. I was willing to forgive the UBs to a degree, as the Alolan Forms really got me upset due to my recent hatred toward Gen 1 glorification, but the fact that they're now as common in teams as M-Kanga, Arcanine, Tapu Fini, and so on, really puts a crimp in my feelings toward SM. If simply KOing them was enough to "eliminate" the threat of UBs, omitting any sort of capturing bit, or even just have them be taken away after the post-game quest, then it would be fine. But, sadly, they're here to stay. But I agree with you, as they're starting to pollute the airwaves just like previous "big shot" Mons. Kinda makes you miss the old days, huh? When UBs didn't exist.

 

[Ereshkigal]

As long as we're not going back to the days when you could fool a person just by naming your entire team of level 100s MAGIKARP and having only the lead be an actual Magikarp.

Or, if you were like me, 5 Magikarps and a Mewtwo.

 

[omahanime]

Too many talking bits.