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Rocketshipping General Discussion
- Thread starter Musashi
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Just out of curiosity, do you think Rocketshipping would be more widespread if 4kids were still in charge of the dub. I know the Japanese version will always be the official and superior version and there's the whole 'James is gay" thing but I think it would be beneficial if the two didn't insult each other all the time in the current dub.
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That's an interesting question you know... This is my take on it:
I think there are a few factors at play. It starts with the increased aggression between the characters which kind of came to a head at the time of the switch-over, and therefore influenced the direction of TPCI's Rockets. Whilst the Japanese TRio bounced back the other way (and right now are probably the least insulting they ever have been), James Carter-Cathcart was not able to adapt his dialogue with the organic change in characters, so Jessie, James and Meowth remain inflexibly rude towards one another.
Nevertheless, I don't think 4Kids' direction would have been any better. By the end of Season 8, Stuart flaunted James' obnoxious gay stereotype quite openly and I suspect that this would have remained static, if not become more pronounced.
Meanwhile the actual writing of the show has had a few things go on:
- Exponential drop in physical contact whereby it was tailing off almost completely by mid-DP (and has never picked up).
- DP 117 was a game-changer and I once had a graph which tenuously demonstrated this by putting post count in the old Rocketshipping thread against time
- BW was a terrible Rocket lull.
- Despite short bursts of fad-dom, the franchise on the whole doesn't have the enormous pull it did 15-20 years ago.
So in short, I'm not sure, but I don't personally think 4Kids staying on would have made a huge difference. The Rocketshipping fanbase shrank for many reasons and TPCI's characterisation of Rockets would play a fairly small role in that I think. No doubt though, it makes a big difference to the enjoyment to those who have stuck around and are still putting up with the dub!
I think there are a few factors at play. It starts with the increased aggression between the characters which kind of came to a head at the time of the switch-over, and therefore influenced the direction of TPCI's Rockets. Whilst the Japanese TRio bounced back the other way (and right now are probably the least insulting they ever have been), James Carter-Cathcart was not able to adapt his dialogue with the organic change in characters, so Jessie, James and Meowth remain inflexibly rude towards one another.
Nevertheless, I don't think 4Kids' direction would have been any better. By the end of Season 8, Stuart flaunted James' obnoxious gay stereotype quite openly and I suspect that this would have remained static, if not become more pronounced.
Meanwhile the actual writing of the show has had a few things go on:
- Exponential drop in physical contact whereby it was tailing off almost completely by mid-DP (and has never picked up).
- DP 117 was a game-changer and I once had a graph which tenuously demonstrated this by putting post count in the old Rocketshipping thread against time
- BW was a terrible Rocket lull.
- Despite short bursts of fad-dom, the franchise on the whole doesn't have the enormous pull it did 15-20 years ago.
So in short, I'm not sure, but I don't personally think 4Kids staying on would have made a huge difference. The Rocketshipping fanbase shrank for many reasons and TPCI's characterisation of Rockets would play a fairly small role in that I think. No doubt though, it makes a big difference to the enjoyment to those who have stuck around and are still putting up with the dub!
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Your take on this is interesting.
So I guess he couldn't try character development during DP 117?(Sorry if this is rude at all.)
Now I'm trying to imagine what BW might have been like if 4kids were around for that...
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Honestly I can't even remember how he wrote them in DP 117, I just remember it was better than expected but Meowth was still a dick?...
How was it with TPCI? Did they try and funny-tise them at all? I didn't even follow the Japanese version during BW let alone the dub.
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I meant more of TPCI couldn't have tried what the Japanese version did with character development and the trio getting closer. Probably should've been more clear on that, sorry.
Nope. They were mostly personalityless and bland.
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I think I'm getting a little too interested in the Rocketshipping timeline between Ohashi and Takegami.
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I think 35% of my thoughts the last three days have been:
-Before the first episode was written, Takeshi Shudo bore creation to several characters, three of whom instantly stole his heart; Kojiro, a young man who's run away from a wealthy home to escape the confines of the expectations of his parents(and his wicked fiancee), Nyasu, an ambitious cat Pokemon who's taught himself to walk and talk to impress a female of his kind who rejected him, and Musashi(his favorite), a young woman embittered by a harsh, unrelenting past who, while she doesn't always show it, has a good heart especially towards those she cares about.
-A team of writers are hired. Among them are Junki Takegami and Yukiyoshi Ohashi.
-Takegami writes his first episode, OS 5. Almost as if afraid to tarnish Shudo's children, he has Team Rocket dig a hole and fall into it.
-Ohashi writes his first episode, OS 7. Team Rocket play a pivotal role in attacking the gym and giving Satoshi his second badge.
-The St. Anne arc begins, an opportunity to truly show more dimensions to Shudo's babies. Out of all the screenwriters, Shudo chooses Ohashi to write OS 15 and Takegami to write OS 16 while he writes OS 17. As if in a rather eerie case by foreshadowing for future infamous episodes, Ohashi has a scene where Musashi spills a bit of Kojiro's blood. Takegami takes a different approach in his episode. He decides to use the life threatening experience to show a deeper side of Musashi and Kojiro's relationship. He even decides to showcase Musashi's tender side when she sweetly but firmly tells Kojiro she won't abandon him.
-The show's been going on for a while now. OS 37 has aired. They have two Christmas episodes ready and... Takegami's OS 38 happens. This could've pretty much ended the show and it's entire reputation but by some miracle and the support of the fans, Pokemon managed to pull through. It was too late to air the Christmas episodes so they decided to save them for next year. These two episodes however have information regarding Musashi's past in that she was poor to the point she had to eat snow to survive. It's something you have to wonder; if the Pikachu incident never happened might have Miyamoto been explored? What would that have done to Musashi and Kojiro's relationship?
-Shudo decides to entrust a very important episode in Takegami's hands; Kojiro's backstory and family. On July 11, 1998, the famous episode aired.
-OS 52 airs. At this point, it's starting to become obvious Takegami loves Musashi as a character and ships her and Kojiro.
-Shudo writes OS 70, Nyasu's backstory. While it's more friendshippy, it demonstrates the bond Shudo wanted the three to have which makes it all the more tragic that three episodes later, somebody tries to sabotage that bond.
-On December 3, 1998 and October 16, 1999, an episode aired that slapped everybody that loved Team Rocket's bond in the face and gave a giant middle finger to Musashi. That episode: OS 73. The writer: Ohashi.
-The Johto seasons are coming around and Shudo's finding opposition with Team Rocket's position in the show. Takegami writes Musashi her OS 72 while Ohashi occasionally fires darts at Musashi, Team Rocket's bond,maybe at Takegami.
-Shudo's written his last episode of the last anime and will soon be gone. Ohashi writes a kind of episode I like to call "Kojiro the Saint, the other two are demons". That episode; Victreebel's goodbye, an episode that drowns Musashi and gives Nyasu a middle fingerand sets off WW3 with Takegami.
-Almost as if knowing Hoenn will be a rough season for Team Rocket, Takegami writes Hoso 13. After this, no one can deny he ships them.
-AG starts with no real series director which means a lot of confusion. One writer named Atsuhiro Tomioka tries to take chargewith help from Ohashi. Team Rocket begin to grow distant.
-Movie 8 happens. Ohashiisn't happy about that so he writes the ultimate betrayal that gives Musashi the noose and drowns Nyasu; another 'Kojiro the Saint, the other two are demons." called AG 147 and starts WW4 with Takegami.
-DP begins. A new start and it's looking as if the damage Ohashi has done is irreversible. Some writers are even beginning to think Ohashi's Team Rocket are indeed Team Rocket while a few take Takegami's side. Takegami accepts there's no way to get Team Rocket back to their old bond; he needs to make it stronger, so strong that even Ohashi couldn't reverse it. DP 117. It cost him from ever making an official Team Rocket episode ever again but it worked. Their bond only got stronger throughout DP.
-BW happens. At the end, Takegami gets revenge against Tomioka for messing up his Rockets.
-XY series. The writers are having a hard time writing Team Rocket. Ohashi obtains an apprentice in Akemi Omede and still attempts to get a wrench in Team Rocket's relationship and pull the rope he's placed around Musashi's neck but DP 117's effects are still hard at work.
-Takegami gets a job with Naruto.What if Ohashi messes things up again? I need a descendent. Takegami sees a new writer by the name of Ayumi Sekine.
-Ohashi disappears after XY 124.
-?
-Before the first episode was written, Takeshi Shudo bore creation to several characters, three of whom instantly stole his heart; Kojiro, a young man who's run away from a wealthy home to escape the confines of the expectations of his parents(and his wicked fiancee), Nyasu, an ambitious cat Pokemon who's taught himself to walk and talk to impress a female of his kind who rejected him, and Musashi(his favorite), a young woman embittered by a harsh, unrelenting past who, while she doesn't always show it, has a good heart especially towards those she cares about.
-A team of writers are hired. Among them are Junki Takegami and Yukiyoshi Ohashi.
-Takegami writes his first episode, OS 5. Almost as if afraid to tarnish Shudo's children, he has Team Rocket dig a hole and fall into it.
-Ohashi writes his first episode, OS 7. Team Rocket play a pivotal role in attacking the gym and giving Satoshi his second badge.
-The St. Anne arc begins, an opportunity to truly show more dimensions to Shudo's babies. Out of all the screenwriters, Shudo chooses Ohashi to write OS 15 and Takegami to write OS 16 while he writes OS 17. As if in a rather eerie case by foreshadowing for future infamous episodes, Ohashi has a scene where Musashi spills a bit of Kojiro's blood. Takegami takes a different approach in his episode. He decides to use the life threatening experience to show a deeper side of Musashi and Kojiro's relationship. He even decides to showcase Musashi's tender side when she sweetly but firmly tells Kojiro she won't abandon him.
-The show's been going on for a while now. OS 37 has aired. They have two Christmas episodes ready and... Takegami's OS 38 happens. This could've pretty much ended the show and it's entire reputation but by some miracle and the support of the fans, Pokemon managed to pull through. It was too late to air the Christmas episodes so they decided to save them for next year. These two episodes however have information regarding Musashi's past in that she was poor to the point she had to eat snow to survive. It's something you have to wonder; if the Pikachu incident never happened might have Miyamoto been explored? What would that have done to Musashi and Kojiro's relationship?
-Shudo decides to entrust a very important episode in Takegami's hands; Kojiro's backstory and family. On July 11, 1998, the famous episode aired.
-OS 52 airs. At this point, it's starting to become obvious Takegami loves Musashi as a character and ships her and Kojiro.
-Shudo writes OS 70, Nyasu's backstory. While it's more friendshippy, it demonstrates the bond Shudo wanted the three to have which makes it all the more tragic that three episodes later, somebody tries to sabotage that bond.
-On December 3, 1998 and October 16, 1999, an episode aired that slapped everybody that loved Team Rocket's bond in the face and gave a giant middle finger to Musashi. That episode: OS 73. The writer: Ohashi.
- This leads into thoughts on why this episode ultimately doesn't work and how it could have worked.
-The Johto seasons are coming around and Shudo's finding opposition with Team Rocket's position in the show. Takegami writes Musashi her OS 72 while Ohashi occasionally fires darts at Musashi, Team Rocket's bond,
-Shudo's written his last episode of the last anime and will soon be gone. Ohashi writes a kind of episode I like to call "Kojiro the Saint, the other two are demons". That episode; Victreebel's goodbye, an episode that drowns Musashi and gives Nyasu a middle finger
-Almost as if knowing Hoenn will be a rough season for Team Rocket, Takegami writes Hoso 13. After this, no one can deny he ships them.
-AG starts with no real series director which means a lot of confusion. One writer named Atsuhiro Tomioka tries to take charge
-Movie 8 happens. Ohashi
-DP begins. A new start and it's looking as if the damage Ohashi has done is irreversible. Some writers are even beginning to think Ohashi's Team Rocket are indeed Team Rocket while a few take Takegami's side. Takegami accepts there's no way to get Team Rocket back to their old bond; he needs to make it stronger, so strong that even Ohashi couldn't reverse it. DP 117. It cost him from ever making an official Team Rocket episode ever again but it worked. Their bond only got stronger throughout DP.
-BW happens. At the end, Takegami gets revenge against Tomioka for messing up his Rockets.
-XY series. The writers are having a hard time writing Team Rocket. Ohashi obtains an apprentice in Akemi Omede and still attempts to get a wrench in Team Rocket's relationship and pull the rope he's placed around Musashi's neck but DP 117's effects are still hard at work.
-Takegami gets a job with Naruto.
-Ohashi disappears after XY 124.
-?
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That was a great post and made me laugh a lot imagining Oohashi and Takegami as warring rivals!
I have my doubts and we will never know about most things for sure, but these are the facts which are indisputable:
- Musashi, Kojirou and Nyasu were Shudou's babies and he envisioned them as the protagonists in his Pokemon anime.
- Takegami loves to write Musashi, and she has expressed almost the full range of character in his episodes.
- Takegami LOVES to write about the bond between the TRio.
- Oohashi likes to write drama between the TRio.
- Oohashi LOVES to write Musashi as a complete bitch.
- After DP 117 we have not since had an episode like this.
Whether Takegami and Oohashi really were at each other's throats, or Takegami and Shudou were friends, or whether the new writers are even aware of the differences let alone have been influenced by individual writers, or where Tomioka ever really stood (during DP we believed he was the Lord and Saviour of Rocketshipping!) - I don't know, and I am almost now past the point of caring.
I'm pretty happy where we are these days. In DP I thought Rocketshipping was going somewhere, and really their relationship did change during that period. Now it is static - but static in a great place as far as I'm concerned!
I love the little nuances in their relationship. Kojirou these days is the supportive, indulgent one who derives happiness from Musashi's happiness (as in the entire Tripokalon arc, and actually every BS rash decision Musashi made in XY; not to mention that little comment about her laughing at his bad jokes in SM 38). Musashi trusts Kojirou implicitly (even when he's wrong like with Petit Dogas!) and even today looked to him to know what the correct thing to do was (even though he was wrong, again!)
Anyway, here is some cute, out of context physical proximity from today which I enjoyed:
I have my doubts and we will never know about most things for sure, but these are the facts which are indisputable:
- Musashi, Kojirou and Nyasu were Shudou's babies and he envisioned them as the protagonists in his Pokemon anime.
- Takegami loves to write Musashi, and she has expressed almost the full range of character in his episodes.
- Takegami LOVES to write about the bond between the TRio.
- Oohashi likes to write drama between the TRio.
- Oohashi LOVES to write Musashi as a complete bitch.
- After DP 117 we have not since had an episode like this.
Whether Takegami and Oohashi really were at each other's throats, or Takegami and Shudou were friends, or whether the new writers are even aware of the differences let alone have been influenced by individual writers, or where Tomioka ever really stood (during DP we believed he was the Lord and Saviour of Rocketshipping!) - I don't know, and I am almost now past the point of caring.
I'm pretty happy where we are these days. In DP I thought Rocketshipping was going somewhere, and really their relationship did change during that period. Now it is static - but static in a great place as far as I'm concerned!
I love the little nuances in their relationship. Kojirou these days is the supportive, indulgent one who derives happiness from Musashi's happiness (as in the entire Tripokalon arc, and actually every BS rash decision Musashi made in XY; not to mention that little comment about her laughing at his bad jokes in SM 38). Musashi trusts Kojirou implicitly (even when he's wrong like with Petit Dogas!) and even today looked to him to know what the correct thing to do was (even though he was wrong, again!)
Anyway, here is some cute, out of context physical proximity from today which I enjoyed:
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I'm glad I was able to entertain you with that though the rivalry thing is probably the result of an overactive imagination(the biggest evidence of this being I analyzed most of this timeline in the middle of History class.)
In a bad way or a good way?(Sorry if this is an annoying question.)
Me too. This season just feels comfortable and enjoyable as far as Team Rocket is concerned. I can't quite find the words to describe it.
That was my favorite part of last week's episode!
This wants to make me see the episode even more now!!!!!!! Ahh the first one!!!
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Lol, best time for it ;-) I did so much thinking about Pokemon during my physics classes at school...
In a good way I think! I don't think Pokemon/shipping should be so taken so seriously it gives you a stomach ulcer... It feels very nice to not care as much as I did when I was 16. Doesn't mean I'm not still passionate!
There were a lot of TRio scenes! They were really good fun actually. I'm afraid that the first one is probably just a trick of the angle but it's still a cute shot!!!This wants to make me see the episode even more now!!!!!!! Ahh the first one!!!
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Yay! I'm (somewhat) normal!
Yeah. My dad asked if something was wrong when I was trying to figure out why Bad to the Bone fails and if it would work at all in any way. Probably a sign I shouldn't think about it too much.
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A chair for baby bear
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So just to reiterate: Rockets were barely in M20, let alone Rocketshipping.
(...But for those desperate enough to have rock bottom standards... there was a nice little scene where they stood back-to-back and then later a part where they slipped off a cliff and IIRC James' bum was falling backwards onto Jessie)
(...But for those desperate enough to have rock bottom standards... there was a nice little scene where they stood back-to-back and then later a part where they slipped off a cliff and IIRC James' bum was falling backwards onto Jessie
)
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So how did Ash get through Erika's gym and release Butterfree without them? That's...depressing considering how much the father of the anime loved them.
Why did Musashi and Kojiro stop getting physical with each other besides the writers and animators not wanting them to BTW?
Cute. Did he land on her at all or was it a slight touch?there was a nice little scene where they stood back-to-back and then later a part where they slipped off a cliff and IIRC James' bum was falling backwards onto Jessie
Why did Musashi and Kojiro stop getting physical with each other besides the writers and animators not wanting them to BTW?
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The new Blu-ray release of Season 1 of the dub is apparently a piece of crap, but I have to admire their taste in "scenes outstanding enough to be placed on the cover":
As for the movie, all the existing events we've already previously seen were more or less unrecognisable, and you are right in that a large part of that was the fact that the TRio played no role at all, quite unlike the original OS!
The falling was a slight touch at most, I think you'd have to go frame-by-frame to capture even that
I'm not sure why they decreased physical contact. I guess it started tailing off around the time Musashi & Kojirou's relationship was fractured, but whilst their friendship was repaired the physical contact only decreased... Maybe society has become more conservative these days and adults being intimately but innocently physically close is no longer acceptable?!
As for the movie, all the existing events we've already previously seen were more or less unrecognisable, and you are right in that a large part of that was the fact that the TRio played no role at all, quite unlike the original OS!
The falling was a slight touch at most, I think you'd have to go frame-by-frame to capture even that
I'm not sure why they decreased physical contact. I guess it started tailing off around the time Musashi & Kojirou's relationship was fractured, but whilst their friendship was repaired the physical contact only decreased... Maybe society has become more conservative these days and adults being intimately but innocently physically close is no longer acceptable?!
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Aww they put the balloon scene on the back!
I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.. Actually seeing how my country's been acting these days, I would not be surprised if 4kids James gets controversial too.As for in the anime world, maybe when Musashi and Kojiro's friendship refurnished, Kojiro kept feeling strange whenever they did touch and when he was aware of why, he got conscious of what he was doing and decided to let Musashi have personal space. This is probably very unlikely and it doesn't explain why Musashi stopped doing it though.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.. Actually seeing how my country's been acting these days, I would not be surprised if 4kids James gets controversial too.
kantoskies
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This isn't Rocketshippy per-se but out of every weird decision made for M20 the general lack of the Rocket trio is most baffling. What relevance did they even have to Satoshi if he has no idea who they are? Their pitiful contribution is probably the least-OS thing about the film (aside from, y'know, the obvious).
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Rocketshipping was my Thing when I was a teeny tiny ten year old, and I still cling to it to this day. So this thread is interesting to read.
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Hi there. Would you like to join?
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