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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

Kasumi by the end of Johto was more or less dead weight, and by Serena's departure traveling companions were already cyclical for over a decade so replacing her was old news. The writers knew that replacing these characters was not only doable but crucial (seriously how dull would the show be if it was still Satoshi + Kasumi + Takeshi?)

The Rocket trio on the other hand actually serve a very easily-seen purpose. They usually are there to add conflict to an episode where there wouldn't be much otherwise. That being said, the writing team have seemed to have moved away from this "plot crutch" more in Sun&Moon than any other series. Aside from being in noticeably far fewer episodes this time around, when the Rockets are in episodes they are usually either carefully placed into the plot or have a very brief scene that doesn't add any conflict. So I guess in a way it *does* seem like the writers are phasing these characters out, it's like they're practicing writing a show without these characters. They were missing from the Akala arc, weren't on the Aether or Ultra Guardian posters, and weren't even in the Aim to be a Pokemon Master 20th Anniversary opening.

If the Rocket trio *was* written out this series I would be more satisfied than if they were at the end of Best Wishes because they are actually acting like themselves this time around. That being said, I would need to see a few things before I would be satisfied with these characters leaving:
  • The return of their rivalry with Yamato and Kosaburo
  • Another Rumika episode
  • Something with Miyamoto, please ;;;-;;;;
  • Do something similar to that idea I had awhile back where they actually successfully catch Pikachu and make a whole mini arc out of it. Heck maybe this could be tied into Rainbow Rocket/how they actually leave or something
  • Give them like...an actual emotional goodbye instead of a cheap gag one
  • Do the original motto one final time!!!
I hate to think of these characters leaving because they're basically my only real draw to this franchise at this point but if their departure is done well I think I'll be okay.
 
Kasumi by the end of Johto was more or less dead weight, and by Serena's departure traveling companions were already cyclical for over a decade so replacing her was old news. The writers knew that replacing these characters was not only doable but crucial (seriously how dull would the show be if it was still Satoshi + Kasumi + Takeshi?)

Considering they keep the lead character(s), I always found that hollow if that's truly the case. No the problem with them, plus others like say Iris is that they're added merely to just showcase more Mons, in the case of Misty and Irisi just serving tokenism roles or if heresay is true then apparently the writers thought that a one man (err boy) show wouldn't catch.

I mean May, Dawn and Serena weren't perfect, but I felt that if traveling companions were handled like them in general (finding something to do more frequently with their screentime, especially the former two) then them becoming dull wouldn't be an issue.

Or in short I think it merely is a case of some characters being mishandled and the production team plays them off as the problem rather than owning up to the possibility that the writing/characterization was the problem.
 
Don't you feel the TRio are growing stale? This show is cyclical and has no end in sight, and any character that stays that much on it becomes stale. Look at Ash.
Heck, look at DP Brock.
 
Don't you feel the TRio are growing stale? This show is cyclical and has no end in sight, and any character that stays that much on it becomes stale. Look at Ash.
Heck, look at DP Brock.

Especially while BW (though I sometimes get the feeling like the writers behind this installment might have been a bit cynical, especially when you consider Dogasu's comment about the Rocket Trio lacking any sense of fun) did it to an even more ridiculous degree, the anime tends to go back and forth between Ash having the skills of a newb while others times upping him to veteran when convenient.
 
Don't you feel the TRio are growing stale? This show is cyclical and has no end in sight, and any character that stays that much on it becomes stale. Look at Ash.
Heck, look at DP Brock.

I can see how people might find the Rocket trio stale but I don't. Especially in Sun&Moon where it really seems like more care was put into their characterization (When they are there in the first place)

And all Takeshi was by DP was that shitty "fall in love with every conventionally attractive lady" shtick. The Rocket trio have always been arguably the most three-dimensional main characters on this show, whereas Takeshi was usually pretty flat (like a sizeable amount of the protagonists). So of course they've stayed around longer than him
 
I think there will be a Rainbow Rocket arc, though not as all-encompassing as the game's Rainbow Rocket. If there is, I believe Giovanni, Ghetsis, and Lysandre are the only ones who would return, since the show doesn't use the "alternate dimensions" stuff as much as the games or the manga. I could also see Charon coming back as the DP rep instead of Cyrus, but I doubt it will happen.

As for the next Pokémon game, I think it'll be Gen 8 first. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon extended the Gen a bit, but not as well as, say, ORAS or B2W2 did for their previous games and there was little added to the games to extend the meta game like when ORAS gave us new Megas. Also, if the anime, in fact, DOESN'T do a Rainbow Rocket arc, they'll need a LOT of padding to make the show last for more than a year, especially since I'm willing to bet Nintendo wants to release the game during the holiday season.

With Team Rocket, I could see it going either way. It likely does depend on what form the Gen 8 anime takes. Will it be standard comedic slice of life like Sun & Moon has, or will it go back to having Ash and the gang constantly on the road? If the latter, I doubt Team Rocket leaves. Finding them stale depends solely on the version watched. Japanese Team Rocket are still fairly entertaining, horrible designs non-withstanding, but English Team Rocket can get unbearable.
 

Now I read it carefully and do some research, I believe it's not really true, but a fanfic based on already revealed information. Let's see:

1. Preview and other revealed stuff:

View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1ZW134f4MTI


2. Dogasu's review based on revealed stuff:
Japanese Episode "BW 023" and "BW 024"

3. Lawrence's additions based on Dogasu's review and other revealed stuff, which later deleted:
Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

4. The Great Butler add stuff based on "what we know:"
Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

5. Lawrence adds some new info with no source:
Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

Whoever that Lawrence is, s/he's the one who added all this new information, the rest is based on previews and other stuff we already seen.

PART 1: Giovanni arrives in the Desert Resort, greeted by a small army of his operatives.
From the first scenes of the preview.
They have been hard at work excavating the Relic Castle where the Meteonite is, which is what created the problem with the Venipede in Castelia City.
Reasoning based on what we know.
Ash, Iris and Cilan are flying through the Desert Resort in a helicopter flown by Professor Juniper and Officer Jenny when they suddenly get blasted out of the sky by a Hyper Beam attack.
From the preview.
The attack was fired by a Liepard belonging to three Team Plasma grunts, who have been keeping tabs on Team Rocket and plan on stealing the Meteonite from them, and they don’t want anyone else getting involved.
We already seen three Plasma Grunts and Liepard on the desert.
At Relic Castle, Giovanni, the TRio, Pierce and Dr. Zager enter the Meteonite chamber. A complicated kind of ritual takes place that sends tremors through the earth and it even reaches Ash and co. by their downed helicopter.
From various preview scenes.
Officer Jenny deems the situation too dangerous for the kids and tells them to head back to Castelia City, and as they promised they’d do at the end of the previous episode if this happened, they do so.
I checked the previous episode and they didn't promise anything like that. Based on previews, they likely stay with the copper while Juniper, Jenny and Looker go forward.
Meanwhile, Team Rocket obtains the Meteonite, which is glowing like the sun. Ash and his friends get sidetracked by the sunglasses-wearing Krokorok, who wants to finish his battle with Pikachu.
Based on what we alreay know.
Pikachu sends him blasting off again, but is hurt in the process, leaving Ash, Iris and Cilan in a bad situation and unable to continue on.
Based on Krokorok gag and Pikachu's sick scenes from the preview.
Professor Juniper and Officer Jenny, meanwhile, were headed toward the Relic Castle when they encounter Looker in a jeep, who says that he’s on the trail of a secret criminal organization.
Reasoning based on their scenes together in the preview.
At Relic Castle, Looker recognizes Team Rocket - which is not the group he’s after - as they load the Meteonite aboard their aircraft. Team Rocket gets away, with Looker, Jenny and Juniper pursuing them toward Castelia City. They run into Ash, Iris and Cilan and are able to give them a lift. Team Plasma is also watching Team Rocket’s aircrafts, and prepare to launch their own operation.
Reasoning that trying to connect different scenes from the preview.
While riding back to the city, Professor Juniper explains to the others that the Meteonite was something ancient people used as a source of light when the sun was blocked out by a volcano’s smoke long ago. Used the wrong way, the energy it emits could prove disastrous for the world.
Based on game info.
When back at Castelia City, the heroes see Team Rocket land at a building where a masquerade party is being held for wealthy and important business people. Looker, Juniper and Cilan infiltrate the party, while Ash and Iris w/ Pikachu and Axew sneak through the lower floors of the building to find the Meteonite.
Reasoning to trying to connect different scenes from the preview.
The Team Plasma agents have also infiltrated the party and are awaiting their chance.
Based on two masked men in the preview.
Giovanni crashes the party and starts making a big demonstration of the Meteonite and what it can do, with the goal being to ransom control over Unova.
Reasoning based on what we know. Not sure about "ransom" part, isn't he want it as energy source to sold energy?
When Ash and Iris learn about this, they decide that they need to cut the power of the building, which Pikachu does, but the action takes a lot out of him because of the impact that the Meteonite is having on his energy.
Based on the preview but unlikely. Considering the timing between power cut and Team Plasma attack from the preview, it's more likely that Team Plasma is guilty of that.
Iris takes Pikachu out of the building, while on the upper floor, the Meteonite shines like a sun, which only benefits Giovanni’s presentation and renders Pikachu’s actions meaningless. Things are not looking up, and the episode ends here.
Based on Iris' saving Pikachu from the preview. Giovanni part contradicts the preview scene.
PART 2: Just as Giovanni is about to ransom control over Unova, Team Plasma strikes. A helicopter carrying Liepard appears outside and Liepard uses Hyper Beam to blast the windows open. The Plasma agents who have infiltrated the party then make their move, knocking Giovanni down and stealing the Meteonite.
Basically the narration of the preview scene.
They throw it out to the helicopter, which secures it in a claw-like device and flies out toward the Desert Resort.
We already seen it in a claw-like device in the preview.
Everything is in dissaray, Team Rocket escapes, and all the heroes reunite. While they don’t want this new criminal group to have the Meteonite, they’re unsure what to do about Pikachu. Suddenly, Pikachu begins to glow and runs away. He’s been affected by the Meteonite’s energy the same way the Venipede were, and is being drawn to it. Looker, Juniper, Ash, Iris and Cilan all get in the jeep and follow him.
Fanfiction to connect the storyline. If Pikachu is affected by the energy the same way the Venipede were affected, shouldn't he run away from it, instead of running towards it?
Meanwhile, Giovanni retreats from Unova accomponied by Pierce and Zager, but tells the TRio to go and take back the Meteonite.
Reasoning to explain Giovanni, Zager and Pierce's disappearances from the show.
In the Desert Resort, Team Plasma has put the Meteonite in the sky so that its effect on Pokemon can spread the more power it gains, hoping it will “liberate” Pokemon from their trainers. When conversing about this plan, they talk about doing it “in service of the Hero”.
In the preview we seen it in sky, the rest is Fanfiction based on game info.
The TRio arrives and says their motto to Team Plasma, and a battle begins between Liepard and Woobat.
As seen in the preview.
The Meteonite’s power makes both Pokemon stronger and once the TRio note this, they try to increase its power more by blasting it with their Meteonite fragment-powered gun.
Based on Trio's "gun" scene. Not sure about "making pokemon stronger" part. Someone's Fanfic?
However, the more the Meteonite’s powers are abused this way, the more energy it begins to unleash. Professor Juniper notes that if this keeps up, Castelia City could be destroyed by this energy, and indeed the city begins to take damage.
Based on previews and summaries.
When they at last arrive on the battle scene, Pikachu joins the fray and the fight becomes a three-way one, with Pikachu set on destroying the Meteonite, which neither evil team wants. In the end, of course, the Meteonite is destroyed by Pikachu.
Based on preview scenes we already seen.
The TRio retreat on their jetpacks and Team Plasma in their chopper
Obvious conclusion based on what we know.
When back at Castelia City, the heroes say their goodbyes to Looker, who is headed off to pursue Team Plasma, and to Juniper, who thanks them for their help as she departs for Nuvema Town. Next up is Ash’s battle with Burgh at the Castelia Gym. The End.
Reasoning based on the next episode.

CONCLUSION: Most of the summary is based on scenes from the preview and other things we already know about the episode. The rest is based on game info, fanfic, reasoning and conclusions based on things we already know.
 
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I can see how people might find the Rocket trio stale but I don't. Especially in Sun&Moon where it really seems like more care was put into their characterization (When they are there in the first place)

And all Takeshi was by DP was that shitty "fall in love with every conventionally attractive lady" shtick. The Rocket trio have always been arguably the most three-dimensional main characters on this show, whereas Takeshi was usually pretty flat (like a sizeable amount of the protagonists). So of course they've stayed around longer than him

SM is handling them better than other series and it's better for them to do other stuff than stalk Ash. For 20 years, most of the time, the TRio would:
* Stalk Ash to steal Pikachu because there aren't better Pokémon.
* Attempt to steal Pikachu (and other Pokémon sometimes)
* Use a mecha that ends up getting destroyed
* Start a battle they easily lose
* Get blasted off by Pikachu's Thunderbolt.
And they would do that over and over for 20 years, which gets boring.
 
@martianmister Wow, you went a lot farther than I did in the research. I did a little look into themattress's posts on tumblr, and got some information (fake or not), he says there's more than one source and one of them is Japanese, he mentions (as if it's a fact) that by the time the episodes got skipped, the writers were planning Pokabu's evolution (Ik that episodes are usually made 6 months in advance and said episode is way over the line, but I guess the creative staff decides things even earlier? Don't know...)

Anyway, I can't say indeed the veracity of the tumblr acc, you brought up a few interesting points, although I think some of them can be explained, maybe:

-I agree with you in Satoshi not being the one to cut the power, as this wouldn't make much sense if all he wanted was to stop Sakaki. It makes more sense for Plasma-dan to do it, indeed. Though can't say for certain, the episode may contain an explanation for that.
-About Pikachu running towards Meteonite, it sorta makes sense looking the previews. There's a car scene featuring Handsome, Araragi and Satoshi-tachi, with the Pokemon clearly absent. During the battle scene it seems like it's going straight to attack without following orders, while involved in a white energy (fitting the summary more or less). About the Fushide, I can't be sure, I didn't watch the previous episode after reading that (something I'm going to do today). I really don't remember if that promise was made as well.
-And, as stated above, the shining Pikachu has when he's going to the Meteonite might explain a possible boost in power.

Anyway, if this turns out to be fake, I praise the writer. Connecting dots, coming up with storylines that we have no idea to know and fitting them into the released scenes. Must be a lot of work.

(EDIT: Just finished watching the episode. While not clear, there's a passage that adds to the whole "Satoshi-tachi promised to return to Hiun City if things get dangerous", when the 3 say they'll follow Junsa's orders. Not as explicit, but it's there.)
 
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I doubt someone outside OLM, ShoPro or TPC(i) would get to see a copy of the unaired BW episodes but what people have hypothesized seems very plausible. I mean, we already know about the recycled animation for Operation Tempest – it wouldn't surprise me if they borrowed a few plot points as well.

I'm also in the skeptical group regarding Team Rocket's potential departure. Sure, they're keeping appearances down to the bare minimum, but I think it's a pretty big leap to say they're going to be gone just because of that, especially after the complete 360 they pulled in BW. They're nearly as essential to the show as Ash and Pikachu are, and I don't think Brock is a good counterexample, because he already was replaced previously during the Orange Islands arc.
 
Dogasu said:
I've been racking my brain trying to think of an American TV show, either live action or animation, that breaks this trend and actually has changed its opening theme mid-season but I'm drawing a blank. Maybe you can think of some?
Steven Universe changed its opening, musically and visually, starting from episode 6 of season 2. Though it could be argued it's an "update" rather than an entirely new intro.

Adventure Time also changed the opening midway through season 7 during the "Stakes" mini-series, but then again, it wasn't a completely different song.
 
The new write-up is informative, yet also somewhat unnecessary imo. I mean does anyone in real life actually get triggered by how other fans define seasons? It just seems a bit nit-picky and condescending to correct something that is so trivial.
 
I do go by the Seasons format whenever I watch my shows. Gives me a good sense of how I should watch my things in order, though I will say it is kinda pointless because in the end not every I know even watches Pokemon in order. They'll go with anyone's order and just call it session.
 
Another reason to properly define the 4Kids seasons by the 52-set rule is that it helps clarify dub trends. Aside from the music videos you mentioned it's more accurate to say "season one kept more amounts of silence in the background" when talking about the first 52 episodes rather than 80. Or "Team Rocket had more charming dub dialogue in season three" includes the end of the Orange Islands arc. Or how "season six was recorded in a different studio and as a result all of the character's voices/BGM sounded louder" includes the last leg of the Johto saga.

The new write-up is informative, yet also somewhat unnecessary imo. I mean does anyone in real life actually get triggered by how other fans define seasons? It just seems a bit nit-picky and condescending to correct something that is so trivial.

No, no one has PTSD flashbacks and panic attacks over something like this.

(Talk about misusing a term, lmao)
 
Additionally, early episodes with Veronica Taylor's Ash had her voice sounding a little more say older, and not even too different than Natochenny's Ash.

No, no one has PTSD flashbacks and panic attacks over something like this.

(Talk about misusing a term, lmao)

Plus pointless trivial details is a bread and butter of fandom. Heck in some forums, I and several others find it interesting to discuss cartoons that actually blend say US and Canadian Voice Actors of all things.
 
A few years ago I was very dismissive of the "season = 52 episodes" model. I said "How can some random DVD releases take priority over the openings?" but one day I discovered that it was the real deal, because all the real season premieres from season 2,3,4 and 5 premiered in Latin America on January 1st on different years, after long breaks since the previous season finale.

However, it's very easy to see while people don't like it, no one is going to buy that "Adventures on the Orange Islands" begins on episode 53, or that "Advanced" includes the Johto League and all but 2 of the digitally colored OS episodes. At the end of the day, the episodes will be the same, yet it's important to clarify which is the real model.
 
At first I wondered why you – aka the biggest English-speaking advocate of the Japanese version of Pokémon – would care so much about how fans defined a dub-only phenomenon. But after reading your write-up it all fell into line. Overall, very educational and informative article. A tinge patronizing, but that's hard to avoid with topics like this.
 
Sasori said:
The new write-up is informative, yet also somewhat unnecessary imo. I mean does anyone in real life actually get triggered by how other fans define seasons?

There are a few reasons I made the new write-up, and while I touched upon these in the conclusion I'd like to clarify them further:

1) There are fans out there who genuinely have no idea why anyone would lump the 4Kids episodes into chunks of 52. They maybe weren't watching Pokémon back during the Kids' WB! days (maybe some of them weren't even born...?) and they don't remember the months and months we had to wait in between "The Breeding Center Secret" and "Princess vs. Princess."

2) Because of this, every single time the show is re-released in the U.S. there is a 100% chance that someone will speak up and wonder "where the rest (= the remaining 27 episodes) of Season One is" or why "Season Three" is starting with a late Orange Islands episode. And what ends up happening is that these people are spending actual money on products only to be disappointed that their new DVD set doesn't contain all the episodes they thought they would.

I don't blame fans for any of the above, of course. The 4Kids / Kids' WB! era was over a decade ago, after all. But the fact that these misunderstandings still occur, to this day, makes me feel like gathering all this information in one place is very much worth it.

Sasori said:
It just seems a bit nit-picky and condescending

technickal said:
A tinge patronizing

When I wrote this article I tried to be very careful that it didn't come off as condescending or patronizing. Was there any part of the article in particular that you felt could have been reworded a bit better?
 
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That reminds me, I actually had a minor bit of commenting to give on a question you posed here: Japanese Episode BW 002 (Also, another previous response to something you asked incidentally was answered here: Dogasu's Backpack Discussion)

Next, when bidding Ash farewell on his journey:

Delia: "Where's your handkerchief? Are your clothes packed? Do you have clean underwear?"

I never realized it before now, but in the five seasons TPCI's had the show, Delia's only shown up...once? TPCI didn't bring back Delia's creepy obsession with her son's underwear then, and I just kind of assumed that it was a thing of the past. Looks like I was wrong!

Actually she appeared through phonecalls in DP episodes "When Pokémon Worlds Collide!" and "Strategy Begins at Home!", with no underwear obsession displayed.
 
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