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Controversial opinions

I personally won't say much here, since most of my thoughts have already been said by other people, but I will say that I'm on the pro-Paul side. He was a good rival who challenged Ash not only in battle, but also in terms of methodology, and wound up with each of them growing and learning to respect each other from it.

Not antagonist. Rival.
Same thing. An antagonist is just a character who goes against the protagonist. And that's pretty much what Paul did throughout the entire series. Rivals can be antagonists too.
 
Same thing. An antagonist is just a character who goes against the protagonist. And that's pretty much what Paul did throughout the entire series. Rivals can be antagonists too.
No. Antagonists are the active villains like Jessie, James, all the other villainous team members, J, and so on. Rivals are their own group of characters, which I guess you could say falls somewhere in between protagonists and antagonists.
 
Ok yes I found him unlikable but what makes his character a poorly written character to me is how unbelievable his character is. There is no nuance. He is one dimensional. Sure he is significant to the plot but that, to me, is distinct from whether his character is well written. To illustrate, though Lana is not crucial to the SM plot, her character is better written to me cause she's complex and interesting but still believable.

I can understand finding Lana to be interesting and likable, but I don't really see how she's complex. I'm not sure if I would describe any of the SM cast members as complex aside from maybe Lillie and I'm not sure about even that one.

I also disagree with the notion that Paul was one dimensional. He was a jerk, but I don't think that made him one note or one dimensional. He often defended his training methods when other characters confronted him instead of just being the more typical bully/jerk character with just being mean for the shake of it. He wanted to get stronger and thought that getting Pokemon who are already strong would be more effective than training just any Pokemon. Despite how he treated Ash, Paul was usually respectful towards Gym Leaders, Professor Rowan and even Brock when he confronted him a few times. His reaction to Brandon calling him out during their battle also made him more emotional than he had been beforehand. Like I mentioned before, Paul did come to respect Ash by the end of the series. He seemed to have started to care more about his Pokemon based on how thanked Electrive for its battle against Infernape at the Sinnoh League. I think it was implied that Paul was about to complement Infernape for winning in the Japanese version before in nearly fainted. That doesn't change that Paul was abusive to it or abandoned Pokemon he thought were too weak, but I do think that showed some growth on his part and that he wasn't just a one note character.

Saying how Paul is so unbelievable is also kind of interesting to me since I remember at least a few comments saying how more people would be like Paul than Ash during DP's run if Pokemon were in our world. Part of that could be how his mentality is similar to how competitive players can see and treat Pokemon, but I don't think too many people found his behavior and actions to be unbelievable. If anything, people love that he isn't the typical friendly rival like the vast majority of characters Ash run into and actually provided good conflict throughout DP's run.
 
My main draw to Paul is that he and Ash are on equal footings. Ash may have lost numerous times, but he wasn't an underdog in this case and Paul is in no way a newbie trainer. They've both got multiple regions worth of experience under them and their Pokemon are just as strong. Ash has years(or in the anime's case, months) of training under his belt so he has no real business losing to people like Cameron, Trip or or Sawyer. But Paul has both the skills, knowledge and experience to be a challenge. People seem to think that if Ash used six of his strongest Pokemon he would have swept through Paul's team, but do we really know that? We know his Torterra and Electivire are strong, but what would be the next four? We don't know every single one of Paul's Pokemon, especially since five of the Pokemon he has used against Ash in the league were mostly new aside from his Aggron, which had shown up in a previous episode as a Lairon. So who's to say Paul can't but together a team of six Pokemon that could rival Ash's?
 
Saying how Paul is so unbelievable is also kind of interesting to me since I remember at least a few comments saying how more people would be like Paul than Ash during DP's run if Pokemon were in our world. Part of that could be how his mentality is similar to how competitive players can see and treat Pokemon, but I don't think too many people found his behavior and actions to be unbelievable. If anything, people love that he isn't the typical friendly rival like the vast majority of characters Ash run into and actually provided good conflict throughout DP's run.

In the game maybe but in the real world, Pokemon are equivalent to pets. Anyone who treats their pets like that would be a terrible terrible person.

Shinji is probably the most nuanced 10-year-old trainer character we have ever seen (and maybe ever will!) in the Pokemon anime. I don't understand how anyone who has actually seen the full run of DP could think otherwise.

Nah, there's Serena, Lillie and Gladion.
 
Nah, there's Serena, Lillie and Gladion.
So you came up with 3 options, well done. Let's break this down.

Have nothing to say RE Serena except pffft.
Gladio is older, not around all that much and anyway...
... A traumatic backstory alone does not a nuanced character make. I like Lillie, I think she has more depth than many, but is her personality more nuanced than that of Shinji? I don't think so. Not in the anime at any rate.
 
In the game maybe but in the real world, Pokemon are equivalent to pets. Anyone who treats their pets like that would be a terrible terrible person.

While I agree that someone treating their pet like how Paul treated Chimchar would make them terrible, that wasn't the point of that statement. It was the notion that Paul is unbelievable when I saw at least a few people saying that his approach was, for a lack of better terms, more realistic compared to the more upbeat friendly kind of trainers we see nearly all the time in the anime. There sadly would be a large amount of people treating Pokemon like tools in the real world, especially when animals and pets are treated as such by terrible people.

SerenaToAlola said:
Nah, there's Serena, Lillie and Gladion.

I like Serena as much as the next person, but she is not full of nuance or complexity. You could argue that Lillie has more depth than the rest of the SM cast, but I wouldn't really say she's nuanced or complex either. Her personality isn't particularly interesting and even Serena's storyline had better structure than Lillie's has despite her goal not staring until a year into XY's run. I haven't seen some of Gladion's recent anime appearances, but based on what I have seen, I wouldn't say he's complex either. He has less screentime in this series than he does in the video games and that really affects the quality of his character in my opinion. He's just kind of there and nothing has really stood out about SM Gladion compared to even SM Lillie.
 
While I agree that someone treating their pet like how Paul treated Chimchar would make them terrible, that wasn't the point of that statement. It was the notion that Paul is unbelievable when I saw at least a few people saying that his approach was, for a lack of better terms, more realistic compared to the more upbeat friendly kind of trainers we see nearly all the time in the anime. There sadly would be a large amount of people treating Pokemon like tools in the real world, especially when animals and pets are treated as such by terrible people.

Paul is believable as a competitive player yes but the thing is, Pokemon in the anime are pets. Powerful pets who are capable of battling but still living breathing creatures. They're not chess pieces. They're not toys. They're not just sports equipment that you wear out as quickly as you can just so you can swap over to use the next better equipment. So yes, to see someone treat Pokemon the way Paul does, in a manner that is completely void of compassion, when they are supposed to remind you of the animals around you and not toys, is just downright unbelievable for me. There's no way such cruelty would be endorsed or even tolerated.

Throughout his story we do not see him in other capacities as well, yea he is another character's younger brother but there was practically no development in that sense. All we got from him was how we went from an animal abuser to someone who can accept that its ok for some people to treat living breathing creatures like what they really are so yea, he is a hard pass for me.

I do give him credit for making Chinchar/Infernape's story amazing though. Since that's the only thing he does for me, he is unfortunately a one dimensional character for me.

-

I knew citing Serena as a nuanced character would draw the ire of people here but whatever. I guess people here just find it hard to accept that storylines don't have to revolve around parameters defined by the Pokemon games or in her case, performances. I'm not sure how to phrase it properly but an example I can cite is school where it is not entirely about passing and getting good grades, it's about learning about yourself etc as well. There is the structural/societal and there is also the personal. And the personal is just as important as well. It is in fact, more appealing to me.

So really, her story didn't start when she made her decision to take part in performances. Her story started the moment she left home. Her conflict was with herself, how she was impatient and unsure and how she grew into an independent young girl, a dependable older sister and her own women altogether. Throughout her story she took on many roles, that of a daughter, a older sister, a artist, a girl in love, a girl with dreams etc.This is why so many girls look up to her and why she was so empowering. She was so inspiring because she overcame herself through the course of her journey. This is why I saw her as the co-protagonist of XY. The only thing they messed up was sending her to Hoenn to do contest. I try my best to not acknowledge that but guess I have to now to show that I'm not biased.
 
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Paul is believable as a competitive player yes but the thing is, Pokemon in the anime are pets. Powerful pets who are capable of battling but still living breathing creatures. They're not chess pieces. They're not toys. They're not just sports equipment that you wear out as quickly as you can just so you can swap over to use the next better equipment. So yes, to see someone treat Pokemon the way Paul does, in a manner that is completely void of compassion, when they are supposed to remind you of the animals around you and not toys, is just downright unbelievable for me. There's no way such cruelty would be endorsed or even tolerated.

Throughout his story we do not see him in other capacities as well, yea he is another character's younger brother but there was practically no development in that sense. All we got from him was how we went from an animal abuser to someone who can accept that its ok for some people to treat living breathing creatures like what they really are so yea, he is a hard pass for me.

I do give him credit for making Chinchar/Infernape's story amazing though. Since that's the only thing he does for me, he is unfortunately a one dimensional character for me.

I know that Pokemon are living creatures in the anime. Considering that there are villains who treat Pokemon even worse than Paul, like the poachers we see sometimes and the evil team grunts/leaders, I just can't really see how Paul's treatment is that unbelievable. Not to mention there have been plenty of cases of Pokemon abandoned by their trainers before Paul showed up. It still doesn't make him one dimensional since that's just ignoring what changes he did go through by the end of DP. One dimensional characters don't tend to change like that.

SerenaToAlola said:
I knew citing Serena as a nuanced character would draw the ire of people here but whatever. I guess people here just find it hard to accept that storylines don't have to revolve around parameters defined by the Pokemon games or in her case, performances. I'm not sure how to phrase it properly but an example I can cite is school where it is not entirely about passing and getting good grades, it's about learning about yourself etc as well. There is the structural/societal and there is also the personal. And the personal is just as important as well. It is in fact, more appealing to me.

Or people just don't agree with the notion of Serena being a nuanced or complex character. The fact that her storyline revolves around a goal not featured in the games isn't really a problem, at least in terms of her characterization. Contests in AG and DP were barely similar to the Contests from the video games, so it's not like the writers had a lot to go on for May and Dawn's storylines. Having a goal with better structure helped them out, but it wasn't defined by the video games. They just took the concept of Contests and expanded on them to give the female leads a more battle active goal.

SerenaToAlola said:
So really, her story didn't start when she made her decision to take part in performances. Her story started the moment she left home. Her conflict was with herself, how she was impatient and unsure and how she grew into an independent young girl, a dependable older sister and her own women altogether. Throughout her story she took on many roles, that of a daughter, a older sister, a artist, a girl in love, a girl with dreams etc.This is why so many girls look up to her and why she was so empowering. She was so inspiring because she overcame herself through the course of her journey. This is why I saw her as the co-protagonist of XY. The only thing they messed up was sending her to Hoenn to do contest. I try my best to not acknowledge that but guess I have to now to show that I'm not biased.

I like Serena and despite the shaky writing in places, I like her development, but I do think that's overselling her storyline a bit. She didn't really do much during that first year of XY and not starting her goal until the middle of the series really hurt it in the long run. I can see where they were going by not giving Serena a goal for so long after her first Showcase defeat, but I do think it caused more problems than if she had started earlier in XY or if they had given her a goal right from the start. Not to mention Performances basically being watered down Contest appeals/popularity contests that just happened to feature Pokemon didn't help to make her storyline completely engaging for me either. Showcases never came off nearly as difficult as the show tried to make them out to be. If it wasn't for the good character moments Serena had during her Showcase journey, it would have been much harder to sit through them. I didn't like that they sent her off to Hoenn for Contests either, but I don't think that was the only mistake in her storyline.

I don't think that Serena is empowering, but I could see why others might feel differently if they really liked her and/or find her relatable. I don't think she was the co-protagonist of XY though. She didn't have nearly as much of a role in that series compared to Dawn in DP and Showcases were only relevant for a little over a year in XY's run. Serena does have some nice moments and character growth, but I don't think that's the same thing as being a character full of nuance and complexity. I don't think that Serena's storyline is nearly that deep either.
 
Or people just don't agree with the notion of Serena being a nuanced or complex character. The fact that her storyline revolves around a goal not featured in the games isn't really a problem, at least in terms of her characterization. Contests in AG and DP were barely similar to the Contests from the video games, so it's not like the writers had a lot to go on for May and Dawn's storylines. Having a goal with better structure helped them out, but it wasn't defined by the video games. They just took the concept of Contests and expanded on them to give the female leads a more battle active goal.

You missed my entire point. What I was trying to say is that stories don't have to revolve around taking part in a league or a competition. In some instances it can be (eg. for Ash and Dawn it was to take part in the league and contests) but it doesn't have to be the case all the time. A better indicator of what their story is, is their motive for going on the journey.

For Serena, she left home because she was unhappy. She didn't know what to do with her life. So no, her story was not about her performances (though it played a part in her story). Her story was about her personal growth and there was PLENTY of that in the first year, before she even took part in any performance. A huge part of the anime dealt with her tensions with her mum, ho she's unsure of her place in the world, how she tried to deal with it by trying to find love and how she understood how being in a relationship isn't everything. These are all important and very important aspects that add to the depth of her character. Serena is probably the most nuanced 10-year-old trainer character we have ever seen (and maybe ever will!) in the Pokemon anime. I don't understand how anyone who has actually seen the full run of XY could think otherwise.
 
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Paul is believable as a competitive player yes but the thing is, Pokemon in the anime are pets. Powerful pets who are capable of battling but still living breathing creatures. They're not chess pieces. They're not toys. They're not just sports equipment that you wear out as quickly as you can just so you can swap over to use the next better equipment. So yes, to see someone treat Pokemon the way Paul does, in a manner that is completely void of compassion, when they are supposed to remind you of the animals around you and not toys, is just downright unbelievable for me. There's no way such cruelty would be endorsed or even tolerated.

I think pets is not the correct comparison. Pokemon are partners and equals to their trainers. In the Pokemon world, Pokemon are at least equals (if not greater) to humans in many ways, including intellect. Although some of us (myself included) treat our pets as equals, there is no arguing the gap in intellect and the disconnect in terms of mutual understanding and comprehension. Paul is treating his Pokemon the way they want to be treated, although with a brashness that maybe isn't necessary, but is just his personality. The Pokemon Paul seeks out to catch are Pokemon that want to become as strong as they possibly can be and be competitive battlers. That is why Paul is so careful when catching Pokemon and so willing to release Pokemon. It is no different than Serena, who caught Pokemon that had similar goals and dreams to herself, who she could help reach the heights they wanted to reach. Just like people (and yes like pets) all Pokemon have very different personalities, but the main difference from pets is that Pokemon have the comprehension to have their own goals and dreams. The best comparison to Paul's Pokemon would be top tier athletes in the real world. Highly competitive athletes choose to train in very similar methods as Paul's Pokemon do, having coaches or trainers be as hard on them as possible to help them achieve new heights. There is no difference with Paul's Pokemon, Paul's Pokemon wanted to be pushed to their limit. It wouldn't be fair to them if Paul wasn't pushing them as hard as they wanted, then he wouldn't be doing his job as their trainer and helping them achieve their goals. This is the exact reason Ash's Froakie left multiple trainers before it met Ash. Even Chimchar didn't want to leave Paul and it is clear Chimchar had similar goals and dreams to be a top tier battler, but just couldn't reach those heights in the same manner as Paul's other Pokemon due to having a different personality. Now, I'm not saying Paul was perfect, he surely did make many mistakes, just like everyone else does and he went too far at times. He didn't really bond with his Pokemon on a friendship level as much as other trainers (although he did some, in his own way), and that had to do with him being immature and not realizing the impact those bonds could have on achieving new heights, but it was something he was beginning to understand towards the end of DP.

Arguably, Paul's greatest weakness, in comparison to Ash or other trainers, is that he is not very adaptable. Ash had learned (I say had because at DP he was still building off his prior journeys, which is more debatable since) to work with Pokemon with a huge variety of personalities and in a huge variety of ways. Ash even trained in similar ways to Paul with some of his Pokemon that responded to those methods (he just has a much more positive personality, so the same type of training will feel different to the audience, but at its root you will find many instances that are similar). Paul not being able to be adaptable in his training methods may have had him miss out on some potentially great partners, but he still was proven to be quite successful with his own methods. In order for Paul to take the next step and rival someone such as Cynthia, he would have to become a more well-rounded trainer, but remember he was Ash's age (or around it anyway) and still had a lot of maturing to do. Good development doesn't necessarily mean making a 180 degree improvement over the course of a series, for someone like Paul to become a giddy Ash-type trainer in the course of the DP series would have been unbelievable and disappointing. Paul did grow and learn some throughout the series, but he has a stubborn personality, and it is quite well known that stubborn people change at a slower pace than others, so like I said earlier "beginning to understand" is the right level of progression for Paul during the stretch of DP because of who he was and his personality.

Back to the pets topic, yes some people in the Pokemon world do treat their Pokemon as pets, and in my opinion that could be extremely cruel depending on that particular Pokemon, while being great for others depending on their personality and life goals. If that Pokemon had dreams of battling, or performing, or traveling but the trainer just keeps them at home, that could lead to a very disappointing life. Remember when Ash and Dawn traded Buizel and Aipom? Sure Aipom was a good battler and she could have continued to participate in gym battles and be reasonably happy, but she was much more happy performing (well and apparently playing ping pong...) so allowing her to perform was the right thing to do for her long term happiness and to achieve her own life goals. The same was true of Buizel, who certainly had the ability to be a good performer, but had a greater desire to participate in battles. This is why it is so imperative (and the anime usually shows us this) to get to know the Pokemon before capturing it, or in Paul's case releasing the Pokemon if they aren't a fit. So anyway, I think Paul would be far more cruel to his Pokemon if he treated them like a pet, it would be unfair and cruel to not treat them with the respect they deserve as partners and equals who want to achieve greatness. For a Pokemon like Paul's who wanted to train so hard, it would be disrespectful to not help them achieve their goals (similar to the disrespect of "going easy" on someone who wants to compete in, well, anything).

Paul wasn't perfect, but he was extremely interesting and brought a new method of training to the table that we hadn't seen before in the anime, made a lot of people think, and made for an incredible rivalry, while giving us a personality that was unlike any other we had seen before, and with so many recycled concepts, having Paul was a breath of fresh air and an incredible gift during the incredible DP series.
 
I think pets is not the correct comparison. Pokemon are partners and equals to their trainers. In the Pokemon world, Pokemon are at least equals (if not greater) to humans in many ways, including intellect. Although some of us (myself included) treat our pets as equals, there is no arguing the gap in intellect and the disconnect in terms of mutual understanding and comprehension. Paul is treating his Pokemon the way they want to be treated, although with a brashness that maybe isn't necessary, but is just his personality. The Pokemon Paul seeks out to catch are Pokemon that want to become as strong as they possibly can be and be competitive battlers. That is why Paul is so careful when catching Pokemon and so willing to release Pokemon. It is no different than Serena, who caught Pokemon that had similar goals and dreams to herself, who she could help reach the heights they wanted to reach. Just like people (and yes like pets) all Pokemon have very different personalities, but the main difference from pets is that Pokemon have the comprehension to have their own goals and dreams. The best comparison to Paul's Pokemon would be top tier athletes in the real world. Highly competitive athletes choose to train in very similar methods as Paul's Pokemon do, having coaches or trainers be as hard on them as possible to help them achieve new heights. There is no difference with Paul's Pokemon, Paul's Pokemon wanted to be pushed to their limit. It wouldn't be fair to them if Paul wasn't pushing them as hard as they wanted, then he wouldn't be doing his job as their trainer and helping them achieve their goals. This is the exact reason Ash's Froakie left multiple trainers before it met Ash. Even Chimchar didn't want to leave Paul and it is clear Chimchar had similar goals and dreams to be a top tier battler, but just couldn't reach those heights in the same manner as Paul's other Pokemon due to having a different personality. Now, I'm not saying Paul was perfect, he surely did make many mistakes, just like everyone else does and he went too far at times. He didn't really bond with his Pokemon on a friendship level as much as other trainers (although he did some, in his own way), and that had to do with him being immature and not realizing the impact those bonds could have on achieving new heights, but it was something he was beginning to understand towards the end of DP.

Hm ok this is a very interesting point and it does put him under new light for me.
 
You missed my entire point. What I was trying to say is that stories don't have to revolve around taking part in a league or a competition. In some instances it can be (eg. for Ash and Dawn it was to take part in the league and contests) but it doesn't have to be the case all the time. A better indicator of what their story is, is their motive for going on the journey.

That does make a bit more sense than what I originally thought you meant. The problem I have with that is that the bulk of Serena's storyline still centers around her competition. Before deciding on becoming a Pokemon Performer, she didn't really have much, if any, character development. She still became a more confident person, but that was still the result of her going through different Showcases in her attempts to become the next Kalos Queen.

SerenaToAlola said:
For Serena, she left home because she was unhappy. She didn't know what to do with her life. So no, her story was not about her performances (though it played a part in her story). Her story was about her personal growth and there was PLENTY of that in the first year, before she even took part in any performance. A huge part of the anime dealt with her tensions with her mum, ho she's unsure of her place in the world, how she tried to deal with it by trying to find love and how she understood how being in a relationship isn't everything. These are all important and very important aspects that add to the depth of her character.

Saying that her performances just played a part in her story is rather strange to me. That makes it sound like Showcases weren't a key aspect of her storyline, but just an afterthought, which doesn't make much sense to me if that is what you're saying here. It's true that Serena left home because she didn't want to be a Rhyhorn Racer and she didn't have a goal in mind, but that really wasn't an issue for her during XY's first year. Up until the Summer Camp arc, which was near the end of the first XY season, Serena not having a goal didn't seem to bother her. Even when it started to, she was instantly reassured by Ash to not worry about it and she first learned about Pokemon Showcases during that arc, even though it took her a few more episodes to officially decide to become a Performer. That's why I can't really believe the whole notion that Serena didn't know her place in the world because she didn't have a goal. The show didn't really seem to present it as an issue for the longest time and when it did start to bother her, it was resolved fairly quickly.

There really wasn't that much tension between Serena and her mother throughout XY. There was some conflict when she first announced that she was going to be a Performer instead of a Rhyhorn Racer, which admittedly felt a bit forced to me. She wanted Serena to be a Rhyhorn Racer since she was little, but then they threw in the idea that Serena always gave up whenever something became too difficult, which wasn't really shown in Serena's characterization before. That being said, their Gogoat race was still an effective way to showcase Serena's determination and I would say it's easily one of Serena's best character moments in the series. But that's where any tension with her mother ended. She could tell by the way the Gogoat was moving that Serena felt passionate about Showcases and decided to support her from then on. That's why I'm confused and surprised that you think that a huge part of XY was her tensions with her mother. Serena's mother was shown to be pretty supportive throughout the rest of XY after their Gogoat race.

And did she understand that being in a relationship isn't everything? She didn't become Ash's girlfriend obviously, but she still kissed him and said that she'll become the kind of woman he likes, or something to that effect. I don't remember how the line went in the Japanese version since I'm more familiar with how it went in the dub. Just because she didn't do a more proper confession and stay with Ash as his girlfriend doesn't really mean that she knows that a relationship isn't everything. That might be reading in a bit too much about her decision to leave the group.

SerenaToAlola said:
Serena is probably the most nuanced 10-year-old trainer character we have ever seen (and maybe ever will!) in the Pokemon anime. I don't understand how anyone who has actually seen the full run of XY could think otherwise.

I don't think that copying someone else's post and replacing Paul with Serena makes your argument anymore convincing. If anything, it weakens it significantly.
 
The problem I have with that is that the bulk of Serena's storyline still centers around her competition.

How can it be when it was only introduced a year later? She appeared to not be doing much in the first year to most but to me, it was her trying out what's out there in the world, to see if there's anything that's her cup of tea.

Ultimately, she set off on her journey because she wanted to grow and YES while the performances played a part in helping her grow, it wasn't everything as there were still many other things that she did over the course of her journey.

It's true that Serena left home because she didn't want to be a Rhyhorn Racer and she didn't have a goal in mind, but that really wasn't an issue for her during XY's first year. Up until the Summer Camp arc, which was near the end of the first XY season, Serena not having a goal didn't seem to bother her. Even when it started to, she was instantly reassured by Ash to not worry about it and she first learned about Pokemon Showcases during that arc, even though it took her a few more episodes to officially decide to become a Performer. That's why I can't really believe the whole notion that Serena didn't know her place in the world because she didn't have a goal.

Is this not proof that didn't know her place in the world? Her mum wanted her to be a Rhyhorn Racer. She didn't want to do that but she didn't know what she wanted to do instead. If she did she wouldn't have whatever tension she had with her mum. And though the tension with her mum got resolved early, she was still fighting against herself, she questioned herself after her first loss. This is because it made her question whether Performances was the right thing for her. This continued even when she had that conflict with Pancham and Fennekin and had that chance encounter with Aria. This was a recurring thing. I don't understand how anyone who has actually seen the full run of XY could think otherwise.

The show didn't really seem to present it as an issue for the longest time and when it did start to bother her, it was resolved fairly quickly.

Just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't mean it's not there. And let's be real. There are many things in the pokemon anime that gets resolved fairly quickly. Why are we giving Serena so much flak when issues involving her gets resolved so quickly.

That's why I'm confused and surprised that you think that a huge part of XY was her tensions with her mother.

You quoted me out of context. That was just one point out of 3 others.

And did she understand that being in a relationship isn't everything? She didn't become Ash's girlfriend obviously, but she still kissed him and said that she'll become the kind of woman he likes, or something to that effect.

Of course she did. If she didn't she would have just blindly followed Ash to wherever he wants to head to. She still likes Ash but she realised that she's her own person too. She went to Hoenn because she was told by someone she looks up to that it would help her become the Kalos Queen.

AND BEFORE YOU GET ALL UP IN ARMS OVER THAT, let me just explain that the whole Kalos Queen quest isn't just some Kalos equivalent to contest. The performances involved all kinds of other challenges, something that you have conveniently ignored in all of your posts talking about performances. In other words, you need to be very well rounded and more importantly someone people can look up to as a PERSON. It's not just something that's determined by empirical scores. This is very obvious cause idols were huge in Japan during XY's run and this whole subplot is very clearly inspired by that. This goes back to my initial point, performances are not just a competition, it's about growing and becoming a great person.

Just because she didn't do a more proper confession and stay with Ash as his girlfriend doesn't really mean that she knows that a relationship isn't everything.

Please refer to my response after the third quote.

I don't think that copying someone else's post and replacing Paul with Serena makes your argument anymore convincing. If anything, it weakens it significantly.

It's called sarcasm lol. Well that someone else clearly did a great job in convincing me. :)
 
How can it be when it was only introduced a year later? She appeared to not be doing much in the first year to most but to me, it was her trying out what's out there in the world, to see if there's anything that's her cup of tea.

Ultimately, she set off on her journey because she wanted to grow and YES while the performances played a part in helping her grow, it wasn't everything as there were still many other things that she did over the course of her journey.

Because becoming a Pokemon Performer is what allowed for Serena to have character development. It wasn't just something that played a part in her growth. It was pretty essential and Serena's storyline wouldn't have been the same if she didn't become a Performer. She wanted to leave home to avoid being a Rhyhorn Racer, and seeing that Ash was in Kalos certainly helped with that decision too, but Serena wasn't really trying out what's out there in the world or find what she wanted to do. Serena really didn't do much during that first year in exploring different types of goals or competition until she found out that she like Pokemon Showcases.

SerenaToAlola said:
Is this not proof that didn't know her place in the world? Her mum wanted her to be a Rhyhorn Racer. She didn't want to do that but she didn't know what she wanted to do instead. If she did she wouldn't have whatever tension she had with her mum. And though the tension with her mum got resolved early, she was still fighting against herself, she questioned herself after her first loss. This is because it made her question whether Performances was the right thing for her. This continued even when she had that conflict with Pancham and Fennekin and had that chance encounter with Aria. This was a recurring thing. I don't understand how anyone who has actually seen the full run of XY could think otherwise.

I just think that saying that she didn't know her place in the world is reading a bit too much/too deeply into Serena's storyline, especially when it didn't really seem to bother her a long time. She was disappointed with her first loss, but I don't think she questioned whether or not Showcases was the right thing for her. Her conflict with Fennekin and Pancham was over how angry she got when their fighting resulted in their routine being ruined. She may have mentioned doubts about her being a Performer to Aria, but I don't remember that. I do remember that she told her that she wanted to be a Performer like Aria, so I don't know if she also mentioned that she questioned whether or not Showcases was the right thing for her. I kind of doubt that since she was pretty determined to become the next Kalos Queen and I don't recall that determination significantly wavering during XY unlike Dawn who actually did wonder if Contests were right for her after losing in the appeal round twice in a row. Even crying after her first defeat was more disappointment than just having doubt in herself, especially when this was the first goal she wanted to strive for and she was having so much fun right before she loss.

SerenaToAlola said:
Just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't mean it's not there. And let's be real. There are many things in the pokemon anime that gets resolved fairly quickly. Why are we giving Serena so much flak when issues involving her gets resolved so quickly.

I think it does. There isn't much, if anything, about her behavior during that first year that could be read as Serena feeling sad over not having a goal herself, and it was barely addressed before it actually became an issue. It just comes off as reading too much into her storyline and adding depth/conflict that wasn't really there. I'm not saying that Serena is the only case where her conflicts are resolved easily/quickly. I'm pretty sure she isn't even the worst offender in that department, but it does still happen, so that's why I mentioned it here.

SerenaToAlola said:
You quoted me out of context. That was just one point out of 3 others.

It's still a bit much to say that tension with her mother was a big part of XY even as part of other points. There was only conflict between them for one episode and afterwards, Serena's mother was nothing but supportive of her new goal. She sent her dresses, would encourage her whenever Serena called her and cheered for her in person during the Master Class Showcase. That's why I think saying that Serena's tension with her mother played a big part of the series, even among other points, is an exaggeration, if not entirely misleading.

SerenaToAlola said:
Of course she did. If she didn't she would have just blindly followed Ash to wherever he wants to head to. She still likes Ash but she realised that she's her own person too. She went to Hoenn because she was told by someone she looks up to that it would help her become the Kalos Queen.

Much like Serena's whole not knowing her own place in the world, I think the notion that she realized that she's her own person too is kind of reading too much into her decision to leave, especially considering how she left in the first place. I didn't really get the impression that all she wanted was a relationship with Ash or that she didn't know that she was her own person outside of her feelings for Ash before deciding to leave or even before she became a Performer. She had an obvious crush on Ash, but that isn't the same thing as not knowing that she is her own person.

SerenaToAlola said:
AND BEFORE YOU GET ALL UP IN ARMS OVER THAT, let me just explain that the whole Kalos Queen quest isn't just some Kalos equivalent to contest. The performances involved all kinds of other challenges, something that you have conveniently ignored in all of your posts talking about performances. In other words, you need to be very well rounded and more importantly someone people can look up to as a PERSON. It's not just something that's determined by empirical scores. This is very obvious cause idols were huge in Japan during XY's run and this whole subplot is very clearly inspired by that. This goes back to my initial point, performances are not just a competition, it's about growing and becoming a great person.

I didn't mention the other challenges because they're easily the worst aspect about Showcases and they do not make the competition look particularly challenging, despite XY frequently trying to claim that they were. Making outfits for your Pokemon, baking Pokepuffs and going through a Pokemon themed Quiz never gave the impression that Kalos Queen had to be well rounded, especially when the quiz round came out of nowhere after so much focus was put on more traditional feminine aspects like cooking and fashion. I know Showcases were inspired by Japanese idols, but I often think of them as popularity contests since that's what ultimately determined who won a Showcase. That's why I don't really agree with the notion of Showcases being about growing and becoming a great person. All that matters is that you're popular enough for people to vote for you and quality is not necessary in order to become popular. There were other better routines in at least a few of Serena's Showcases, but she still won. Shauna's routine was practically the same every time we saw her perform and she still ended up in the Master Class. Aside from Aria, who was the Kalos Queen, I don't think people looked up to Performers as people and becoming a person that other people could admire as Kalos Queen that wasn't really a factor in Serena's Showcase journey either. The focus was just on Serena getting enough Princess Keys to make it to the Master Class and become Kalos Queen.

SerenaToAlola said:
It's called sarcasm lol. Well that someone else clearly did a great job in convincing me. :)

There could have been better ways to explain that you were being sarcastic without belittling me for not recognizing it. I have a hard time telling when people are being sarcastic online or in person too. It still probably wasn't the best choice since it still doesn't help your argument either way.
 
There could have been better ways to explain that you were being sarcastic without belittling me for not recognizing it. I have a hard time telling when people are being sarcastic online or in person too. It still probably wasn't the best choice since it still doesn't help your argument either way.

I'm sorry if I came across as belittling you. It wasn't my intention at all.
 
I hate the stupid glowing effect whenever Pokémon evolve in the anime. While I admit it looks a lot better now than it did back in the old days, I’d really like to see a Pokémon evolve without being obscured.
 
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