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Controversial opinions

Ash wasn't as "mature" or "serious" as people often claim it to be during the run of XY.
He wasn't serious or mature but kinda... dull? Like idk most of the time I felt like I'm watching Ritchie in Ash's body.
I think it's mostly because his companions (and almost everyone around) idolised him and it got boring really fast.
 
It's true, Ash was not that mature in XY especially in the begining, remember how he used to be really excited about Clemont inventions. It was not Ash who was serious it was the whole plot who was. The whole Greninja Mistery, The defeats against Sawyer,Alain and Wulfric, Team Flare trying to destroy the world. The difference between Sun and Moon and XYZ was the way on how those problems where approached. For example the whole Zygarde destruction was treated as a world ending situation in contrast the Necrozma arc was treated as a joke, the whole adults getting lazy was really stupid.

The Necrozma arc wasn't really treated like a joke. Even with the adults getting lazy, it wasn't treated like a joke completely. It might not have been a world destruction level of threat like the Zygarde plot, but it still had serious affects on the Alola region and treated as such. Granted, I still think that the Necrozma arc was one of the highlights of SM, but it wasn't played for laughs.

santiagus said:
That's one thing I missed from Sun and Moon, being serious at some aspects. Yeah we had the Litten episode and the rise of the death fog episode but in a series that had the Ultra Beasts that in the games are mean to be destroying machines for me it's not enough, as I said before the only Ultra Beast who was seen as a demonic creature was Guzzlord and he is more famous for his screams than for his episodes.

I never really understood this notion that all of the Ultra Beasts had to be monsters of destruction. Even in the games, they aren't really shown in that kind of light. The only exceptions to that are Nihilego and Guzzlord, which were treated as bigger threats. You get to travel to their worlds in US/UM, but aside from Guzzlord, they aren't shown to be intimidating or threatening. Granted, there were some episodes that didn't make Ash and his friends look like competent Ultra Guardians, particularly when they would keep throwing Ultra Balls with no other backup plans, but most Ultra Beasts not being huge intimidating threats is pretty fitting with how most of them were treated in the games too. I thought that the Guzzlord episodes were pretty good, even though I prefer its debut two part episode over the attack on the Alola League. Even then, I thought that there were some nice moments with the cast working together to stop the multiple Guzzlord.

Plus, SM could be serious outside of the Litten episode and Mallow talking to her mother. It was more light hearted than most people might have expected and the slice of life format probably contributed to that as well, but SM wasn't all jokes and extreme facial expressions all the time. It had serious moments for the characters and the overall storyline.
 
I think seeing him self-reflect a bit more may help the boy, we saw a bit of it in the last episode to air before the hiatus in which Goh thought Raboot no longer loved him and decided without asking his starter that it might be happier in Hoenn.
I don't see that as an improvement at all, no offense. I would see it as such if he talked it through with Raboot.
Which so few trainers have done thus far, it's honestly [redacted].

Unpopular opinion: I like Goh just fine as a person, yeah, he can be a bit clueless and all that but honestly flawed characters are more fun to watch than Mary Sues.
I know I said I whitdrawn my Stu assesment and later only played it up for comedy's sake, but I said it before and I'll keep saying it: having flaws that don't impact one's progress is as good as not having any.

Him being an inferior battler in comparison with Ash doesn't matter as long as he can pursue his goall even with his full team fainted. Him being a dork and clueless doesn't matter as long as conflicts that come in as a result of his misunderstandings are quickly resolved and brushed aside.
------
I firmly mantain episode 15 (and 22, albeit to a much lesser extent and for diffirent reasons) Gou was probably the best Gou, because he actually worked to earn the trust of a Pokemon and even after helping Cubone out, he wasn't expecting it'd let him get captured. That's really one of the two things I wish to see from him: either he struggles as a result of his supposed drawbacks and actually learns a lesson that lasts longer than a single episode, or he works hard for and earns what he wants.
 
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I always shudder when the topics of "maturity" and "seriousness" come up, because it's apparent nobody - including me - really understands what it means and just apply their own definitions. Using the above discussion as an example, Ash getting excited about Clement's inventions is regarded as a sign of "immaturity" by some viewers, but why is that considered immature behaviour? Why do fans regard anything that's goofy or intended to be lighthearted and funny as "immature"? It's never made sense to me.

When I think about what a mature person is in real life, I think of someone who understands their own wants and needs very well but doesn't make them the centre of everything, who takes responsibility for their actions and accepts accountability when they do wrong, and who can accept different points of view to their own. I think of people who can respond to set-backs, who are generally honest and positive, and has compassion for others.

Applying this to Ash, I find that he is a "mature" person for the majority of the series, but like any kid whose world view is still expanding, he has lapses. In early Diamond and Pearl, Ash has trouble accepting Paul's approach to being a Pokemon trainer. He gets angry about it because he sees it as wrong. That inability to consider Paul's approach and feelings fairly is a sign of immaturity on Ash's part. On the other side, Paul's inability to feel compassion for his Pokemon and tailor his approach to their individual needs is a sign of immaturity for him. Both characters mature throughout the course of their rivalry, but this prevailing idea that DP Ash was always a "mature" character completely misses the point. Here's another example from that season: in the beginning, Ash was very impatient and short with Dawn when she couldn't catch a Pokemon, almost to a character breaking degree. People always remember how invested he was in her successes and failures but forget that he had difficulty accepting she was a rookie on more than one occasion (such as blaming her for their first tag battle going wrong).

I guess my controversial take here is that there is no one season of Pokemon post OS that is more mature/immature than the other. I think the long-held view that DP and XY are "mature" and BW and SM are "immature" is based entirely on the faulty premise that lighthearted moments of comedy make the show more childish, therefore it's immature. Like that scene in SM when Ash shakes his arse to teach Rockruff how to build power. People leapt on that scene as a reason to bash SM and as proof of why SM Ash was more childish/immature, while ignoring the fact he was being completely selfless and helping a Pokemon that wasn't even his yet, because he wanted that Pokemon to succeed. OS is the only season to feature an Ash who is mostly immature, but since then he's been consistently mature with a few lapses here and there.
 
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Okay, please no one hate me, but upon further examination, I come to the realization that:

1. I actually do like Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, while I'm not sure it would make it's way into my top 5 favorite Pokemon movies, I have to admit to finding many scenes actually entertaining. Of course I can understand the complaints that people had with it.

2. On my latest rewatch of Giratina and the Sky Warrior I realized that I like Shaymin...Okay, I still didn't like certain scenes where he/she...whatever seem to have it out exclusively for Ash, but for some odd reason it didn't bother me like it use to when I last saw the movie, and I'm not going to lie, that goodbye they had at the end of the movie felt genuinely heartwarming.
 
in the beginning, Ash was very impatient and short with Dawn when she couldn't catch a Pokemon, almost to a character breaking degree. People always remember how invested he was in her successes and failures but forget that he had difficulty accepting she was a rookie on more than one occasion (such as blaming her for their first tag battle going wrong).
I feel like this is actually him carrying over his AG attitude. It was the series that first made Ash the "senior" of the group, as in, the most experienced Trainer, with May being the newbie. His was kinda bossy in the AG and had a hard time accepting advice from others. But during DP, he gradually grew out of it. And I just realized that it's not just Ash who became acceptant of ideas from others: the entire DP series seems to theme around learning from others: Ash learning from Dawn and even Paul, Paul learning from Ash, Dawn learning from Ash, and so forth. Each series teaches Ash something new, and DP taught him to be more acceptant towards ideas from others.
 
I feel like SM kind of did mix up the formula for them without making them leave the Team Rocket organization. Their ultimate goal is still to get Pikachu, but I don't recall that being the major focus of all of their appearances for the past couple of series. It felt pretty rare for Team Rocket to even interact with Ash and his friends during SM since they were often just doing their own thing instead. The idea of the trio still leaving the Team Rocket organization is still interesting, but I don't know how well that would work. At least in DP, Jessie had her Contest dreams, but being part of Team Rocket is such a key aspect of their characterizations and aspirations. I'm not sure how they could just not be villains for a full series.
I find that while SM did a good job at mixing up the formula for TRio by having their lives not revolve around Ash, there’s never really any payoff to their separate activities. They had a mini rivalry with the Team Skull group but that never really goes anywhere, in spite of being given a setup in Alola where they’re regularly in contact with Giovanni, they never have anything to show for it yet there’s no repercussions (sure it may seem bad to have the villains shown ‘winning’ but maybe they could have allowed them to capture some Alola Pokémon to be sent to HQ for the sake of their mission as it just ends up making no sense why they’re so trusted in PM2019 when they didn’t actually accomplish anything in Alola), when they infiltrated Aether Patadise, it was treated basically as a means for them to screw up their plans when they could have demonstrated the competence they showed in early BW since Ash wasn’t involved at the moment and only arrived by chance both times, and it was completely pointless to give them a z-ring considering that beyond their first use of Black Hole Eclipse, they never actually achieved victory with use of a Z-move. So all in all, it just became same beat, different song. This is part of why I can never feel invested in anything TRcentric due to it feeling like a waste of time.
 
I find that while SM did a good job at mixing up the formula for TRio by having their lives not revolve around Ash, there’s never really any payoff to their separate activities. They had a mini rivalry with the Team Skull group but that never really goes anywhere, in spite of being given a setup in Alola where they’re regularly in contact with Giovanni, they never have anything to show for it yet there’s no repercussions (sure it may seem bad to have the villains shown ‘winning’ but maybe they could have allowed them to capture some Alola Pokémon to be sent to HQ for the sake of their mission as it just ends up making no sense why they’re so trusted in PM2019 when they didn’t actually accomplish anything in Alola), when they infiltrated Aether Patadise, it was treated basically as a means for them to screw up their plans when they could have demonstrated the competence they showed in early BW since Ash wasn’t involved at the moment and only arrived by chance both times, and it was completely pointless to give them a z-ring considering that beyond their first use of Black Hole Eclipse, they never actually achieved victory with use of a Z-move. So all in all, it just became same beat, different song. This is part of why I can never feel invested in anything TRcentric due to it feeling like a waste of time.

I don't really mind that they didn't do much with Aether Paradise. Refusing to help Faba basically brainwash Lillie against her will showed more of their own true colors. They're villains, but they do have some moral standards. Plus, I'm not sure what they'd do with the data on Silvally anyway. They could have given it to Giovanni, but I don't know if they would have attempted to make another Silvally. I wouldn't say that it was pointless to give them a Z-Ring just because they only won once with it either. This is Team Rocket we're talking about, so that does limit how many times they can actively win. Even though Mimikyu was robbed of its victory due to that deus ex machina Electro Web, it was still nice to see them work together to master that Z-Move pose. Gladion was also impressed with James and Mareanie being able to use Black Hole Eclipse even after being so exhausted during their match. They still lost, but there was no way James could have defeated Gladion anyway and it still at least gave him a good sendoff from the League.

I do agree that their rivalry with the Team Skull trio didn't really go anywhere. They eventually just became Team Rocket's Alola form practically. Not ending up doing much for the organization this time around or even taking credit for what Ash and his friends do like usual, does make it stranger that they're so trusted in PM.
 
Yet in the end they didn't get an invitation to the wedding while Sauboh got.
Off topic but you just made me want to write an AU where TRio got invited. Oh the insanity...

Um Controversial Opinion
I like Pokémon 4ever. I even consider it one of my favorites.
 
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Yet in the end they didn't get an invitation to the wedding while Sauboh got.

Not to mention he got off pretty light and became a more comedy relief character in spite of his previous actions. I can't blame the anime too much on that given how events unfolded in the games and getting a lower position in Aether Foundation would be the worst for Faba, but he still should have gotten a much harsher punishment when he actively endangered his boss's daughter twice.
 
I had already noticed before that Iris's Axew only has used Outrage only once upon first learning it. But today I realized what that actually means: it was nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina. Iris was losing a battle, and then her Pokémon conveniently learns a new powerful move that allows her to win just when it seemed like she was going to lose. And then it's never used again. A true DEM, if you ask me.
 
I had already noticed before that Iris's Axew only has used Outrage only once upon first learning it. But today I realized what that actually means: it was nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina. Iris was losing a battle, and then her Pokémon conveniently learns a new powerful move that allows her to win just when it seemed like she was going to lose. And then it's never used again. A true DEM, if you ask me.

Yeah, that was a major reason why there was so much backlash towards that part of the first Club Battle tournament. It still would have been bad if Axew kept using Outrage like it eventually did with Giga Impact, but the fact that it learned an overpowered move virtually out of nowhere seemingly just so that Iris could advance to the finals was just insultingly bad. She had made little to no progress on her journey at that point, especially when it came to Axew, but she was rewarded with winning a tournament and thought that it was proof of how well her journey was going at the time. The Club Battle tournaments were admittedly pretty small compared to Leagues and such, but it was still pretty frustrating when Iris kept winning battles that she didn't deserve to win.
 
I had already noticed before that Iris's Axew only has used Outrage only once upon first learning it. But today I realized what that actually means: it was nothing more than a Deus Ex Machina. Iris was losing a battle, and then her Pokémon conveniently learns a new powerful move that allows her to win just when it seemed like she was going to lose. And then it's never used again. A true DEM, if you ask me.
Not to mention how Iris had to spend months to even teach Axew freaking Dragon Rage, and then it suddenly learned and perfectly executed nothing less than the strongest dragon type move besides Draco Meteor.

Even if that was bad, they could have had an arc of sorts where Axew had to learn to properly master Outrage, maybe learn to retain some self control (which could also double as development for the reckless hot headed Scraggy that happened to be his best friend) or to lower the fatigue afterwards, which could even end with an evolution once he was properly trained and mature. But nope, they forgot about it and Axew remained useless.
 
Not to mention how Iris had to spend months to even teach Axew freaking Dragon Rage, and then it suddenly learned and perfectly executed nothing less than the strongest dragon type move besides Draco Meteor.

Staff member: "Hmmm, let's see what we should do for an episode next?"

*grabs a tiny piece of paper from the plot paper bag*
*opens eyes*

An episode where Axew actually learns Outrage

Staff member: "Heergh."

*yells as he throws idea into tiny trash can*
 
Staff member: "Hmmm, let's see what we should do for an episode next?"

*grabs a tiny piece of paper from the plot paper bag*
*opens eyes*

An episode where Axew actually learns Outrage

Staff member: "Heergh."

*yells as he throws idea into tiny trash can*
Why do I get the feeling this is an approximation of how some Pokémon episodes are born?
 
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