Mafia Archie Sonic Mafia, Endgame: TBA (4/8/20)

[Space]

But... DawningWinds did not vote Zorchic, so your claim that you found him highly suspicious for something he did not do makes no sense.

huh wtf I honestly thought he did. Then even more reason for me to back off of voting him.

 

[HumanDawn]

If you want me to counterargue then go ahead and give me an argument specifically, bc I feel like others have already counterargued what I would say anyway

Okay:

By virtue of being the first claimed bastard element in the game, we have more reason to believe him than not! My role doesn't have bastard elements (YMMV is definitely not applicable) and the other two flipped Town roles are definitely not bastard worthy. As the game goes on and we learn more, then we can be warier, but as it is, we know more about Pika_Pika42 than everyone else.

Tood said he thought it was a good point. Midorikawa kind of handwaved it. TheCapsFan hasn't come back to the thread yet.

You're avoiding acknowledging the game's bastard set-up and the virtue of his bastard claim. Not acknowledging stuff like this can lead to mislynches and is not a pro-Town mindset. He came out with further details because he wasn't going to claim PGO in Night 1! If he was Mafia, it makes more sense to straight up claim that targetting him kills players because it would deter from the Cop checking them even more, but he only said that the Cop doesn't check them. If he is a Mafia PGO then he just lost many potential Town PRs targetting him and him killing them.

I want you to imagine yourself in his shoes if he were Town. Potential cop check from being a top wagon and cop dies. He doesn't want his role to be a complete waste so he doesn't share the full details and lets it up to the Mafia's imagination - who knows, they might rolecop him, as unlikely as it may be.

Second post I repeated the same thing in previous posts, so may as well just use the most recent explanation.

huh wtf I honestly thought he did. Then even more reason for me to back off of voting him.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ....

UNVOTE: Space

I need to look over the thread before getting back to a vote. I feel like I'm focusing too much of my energy on Pika_Pika42 that would be better off spent elsewhere.

@FinalArcadia If not Tood, who would you vote?

 

[HumanDawn]

Apologies for not responding earlier, work has been keeping my busy and the only reason why I am even posting is that I am having trouble sleeping due to the heat. There's a lot of discussions that's been going on. Upon the second read, the only thing that's been sticking out for me is PP42's attitude on ExLight.



I don't know why PP42 even brought up the fact that PP42 won't be voting for Exlight. It just seems as it is a set up for potential backtracking.



No, I'm saying I don't really buy it.



And yet, it seems that his parnoia got the best of PP42 to unvote Exlight.

Anyways thoughts on the other issues at hand:

I don't know much about Zoriachic on a personal level. All I can see is just really a player that doesn't know what they are doing at best. From what I read, this seems to be this player's first mafia game. Even without any meta to go off of, it seems to be more of beginner panic than really indicative of anything. I feel that if Zoriachic is scum, he will eventually let up sooner rather than later.

Fatima I feel is CWAC. The player just posts about feelings for the most part but without any analysis or any call to action.

I'm not really liking Dekunut's attitude and what he's trying to bring to the table. His posts rub off to me "I'm active but look at you, you're worse!"

Luninary, Caps and FA I feel okay with for now. They seem to be moving the game forward. HD I feel okay with too, though I don't like the side chatter that HD is trying to start in the game.

Vote: Dekunut

I'm not liking the attitude that his posts give off given the blatant disregard of his inactivity, saying that it is a normal thing. Then when he does actually try to contribute, I feel that he is trying to claim what others say as his own idea.

Would you vote Dekunut again today?

 

[Midorikawa]

You're avoiding acknowledging the game's bastard set-up and the virtue of his bastard claim. Not acknowledging stuff like this can lead to mislynches and is not a pro-Town mindset. He came out with further details because he wasn't going to claim PGO in Night 1! If he was Mafia, it makes more sense to straight up claim that targetting him kills players because it would deter from the Cop checking them even more, but he only said that the Cop doesn't check them. If he is a Mafia PGO then he just lost many potential Town PRs targetting him and him killing them.

I’m not avoiding it. I just don’t believe he’s telling the truth. We discussed the fact that it’s bastard before he fully came out with his role.

I want you to imagine yourself in his shoes if he were Town. Potential cop check from being a top wagon and cop dies. He doesn't want his role to be a complete waste so he doesn't share the full details and lets it up to the Mafia's imagination - who knows, they might rolecop him, as unlikely as it may be.

I wouldn’t be in his position but if I was I would have said nothing until I truly had no choice, or if I did truly consider it would do more harm to town than mafia I would fully claim.

But they claimed it fully Day 2 - the day they can be counterclaimed and lynched - not Night 1, the phase they can't be lynched in.

They had no home. People forced the claim by that point. It also was by that point that we gave the idea of PGO. Before that was ideas of aesetic and miller.

 

[Space]

Quotes not working for these so-

"By virtue of being the first claimed bastard element in the game, we have more reason to believe him than not! My role doesn't have bastard elements (YMMV is definitely not applicable) and the other two flipped Town roles are
definitely not bastard worthy. As the game goes on and we learn more, then we can be warier, but as it is, we know more about Pika_Pika42 than everyone else."

Do we really know more though? We don't know if Snowy actually died because of Pika, and based on what Pika said, it doesnt seem like Snowy could've died from him. Pika knows there's bastard elements and can easily fake claim to match that. All we have is speculation

"You're avoiding acknowledging the game's bastard set-up and the virtue of his bastard claim. Not acknowledging stuff like this can lead to mislynches and is not a pro-Town mindset. He came out with further details because he wasn't going to claim PGO in Night 1! If he was Mafia, it makes more sense to straight up claim that targetting him kills players because it would deter from the Cop checking them even more, but he only said that the Cop doesn't check them. If he is a Mafia PGO then he just lost many potential Town PRs targetting him and him killing them.

I want you to imagine yourself in his shoes if he were Town. Potential cop check from being a top wagon and cop dies. He doesn't want his role to be a complete waste so he doesn't share the full details and lets it up to the Mafia's imagination - who knows, they might rolecop him, as unlikely as it may be."

I think you're taking too much of what Pika has said at face value. Nothing Pika has said has backed up that anyone could get killed by targeting him. He admitted he said it to "bait mafia", which doesn't even make sense bc why would mafia go after him when he had a wagon the precious phase. Clarifying after the fact that he was "baiting" does not say anything about his role.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ....

I really didn't realize :<

 

[Pika_pika42]

I already explained why I didn't give out my entire role at the end of D1. I thought I should warn the cop not to check me but I felt there was a chance that mafia could target me with any of their roles. In hindsight, it might have been a wrong decision but that's what I felt at that time.

I would like to clarify my stand on DawningWinds, I said I found them to be most suspicious because of their sudden vote on me while remaining inactive throughout D1. But after thinking it through, the top 3 wagons were Zorchic, Fatima and I. Zorchic lynched as Town Bulletproof, Fatima claims to be an important role which Town wouldn't like to lose early (inclined to believe their claim for now) and myself who I know is Town. So if all 3 wagons were townies, DawningWinds coming to vote me doesn't look that suspicious anymore as it would have been suspicious if he voted me to save a scum buddy.

My top 2 Town reads are FinalArcadia and HumanDawn.
FinalArcadia seems to be actively trying to solve the game, they are generating discussion, asking questions, prodding the inactives, I overall get a very good vibe about them.

HumanDawn also seems quite active in scumhunting and game solving. Also HD is the only one who truly understands my situation and trying to defend me. I have no idea why they would go against most people to defend me if they were indeed scum.

My top 2 scum reads are Space and TheCapsFan

Space seems like they are mostly following others without giving much of their own inputs. They seem to be coasting along. Their votes seem to be mostly sheeping.

TheCapsFan seem a bit jumpy overall, going to and fro, while some of their posts were good, I still get some suspicious vibes from them.

Vote: Space
I am finding them to be the most suspicious of all the players now.

 

[Space]

Space seems like they are mostly following others without giving much of their own inputs. They seem to be coasting along. Their votes seem to be mostly sheeping.

Following others how and also how not giving input, can you give specifics, I'm genuinely curious here.

 

[FinalArcadia]

@FinalArcadia If not Tood, who would you vote?

Of the other major wagons, I'd vote DawningWinds because I just don't think Pika's claim is that hard to believe. All it takes is one person deciding to use an active role on Pika and putting an end to his threat/fakeclaim if he's scum, and it's not impossible that someone would do that if they didn't have reason to believe him. He may not have gone about softing it the best way possible, but I can see where you wouldn't want to show your whole hand if you thought there might still be a chance to let your ability do something useful. I've probably done something similar in the past as town honestly, I could see the rationale for it. Dawning has next-to-nothing going for him as pro-town in this game, and I'm not a fan of waiting for someone to maybe get subbed out or maybe not. Jinjo to me feels like she's having OMGUS scumreads on people like RC and Luminary because she legitimately feels threatened that scum might be trying to push her.

However, honestly I think Rainbow Cloud is worth looking into at some point. I feel like he's been flying under the radar in this game a lot. Early D1, it took until voting TheCapsFan to really give substantial thoughts on anyone, and he said that Caps was jumping on a small thing with Zorchic (when at that point, frankly there wasn't much to work with) and trying to start a small wagon, when he was the person who actually started the wagon and would have no way of knowing that it would pick up steam. Kept the Caps vote the entire rest of the phase, even when things had clearly gotten to the point that Caps was never going to be the day's lynch target. Gives the "pretty slow on day 1" meta reasoning for why he isn't very active on that phase, but hasn't made any large pushes even now that we're in D2, instead following the Jinjo vote and almost entirely focusing on Jinjo alone this phase, despite having suspected Caps and Pika in D1 and reiterating that suspicion in N1. RC did say

Still unsure on Caps but think Jinjo merits more attention at the moment.

Feeling a bit better about Pika, not sure scum would want to draw attention to themselves with that claim.

but it doesn't change that RC hasn't pushed or really questioned anyone but Jinjo this phase, not even Caps who they claim to still be unsure of.

 

[HumanDawn]

I’m not avoiding it. I just don’t believe he’s telling the truth. We discussed the fact that it’s bastard before he fully came out with his role.

Doesn't remove the fact it's the only bastard claim we know in the set-up of a host confirmed bastard game, and thus Pika_Pika42 earns the benefit of the doubt automatically.

I wouldn’t be in his position but if I was I would have said nothing until I truly had no choice, or if I did truly consider it would do more harm to town than mafia I would fully claim.

But then you would directly tell the Mafia you are a PGO? If you were heavily suspected and you were a PGO, I'm pretty sure you would have warned players to not target you, but would not have said you were a PGO. That just makes no sense, it's like claiming Bomb N1. It's possible the Mafia could think he was a Miller.

They had no home. People forced the claim by that point. It also was by that point that we gave the idea of PGO. Before that was ideas of aesetic and miller.

He put more attention on himself by claiming it! Why would Mafia do that? He wasn't guaranteed to be checked anyway!

Do we really know more though? We don't know if Snowy actually died because of Pika, and based on what Pika said, it doesnt seem like Snowy could've died from him. Pika knows there's bastard elements and can easily fake claim to match that. All we have is speculation

He can fakeclaim to match that, sure, but so far it's the only bastard element we know of regardless to make the game's bastard status make sense, so lynching it is premature.

I think you're taking too much of what Pika has said at face value. Nothing Pika has said has backed up that anyone could get killed by targeting him. He admitted he said it to "bait mafia", which doesn't even make sense bc why would mafia go after him when he had a wagon the precious phase. Clarifying after the fact that he was "baiting" does not say anything about his role.

The role isn't confirmed but the bastard claim is still there. Yeah, it wasn't a perfect plan, but it makes more sense that a paranoid Town would out it to not get a cop check on them. By saying just a Cop check, it might be possible that it's a Miller role.





I really didn't realize :<
[/QUOTE]

 

[Pika_pika42]

Following others how and also how not giving input, can you give specifics, I'm genuinely curious here.

Each of your vote be it on me, Jinjo or DawningWinds seems to be sheepy in nature. Also, I don't find you actively scumhunting or bringing up any new points, seems like you are reiterating what others have said.

 

[HumanDawn]

All it takes is one person deciding to use an active role on Pika and putting an end to his threat/fakeclaim if he's scum, and it's not impossible that someone would do that if they didn't have reason to believe him.

That would be difficult to do though. Like, how would Town go about it publicly? If say, a Doctor targets Pika and dies, then how can we confirm that it was the PGO?

@Pikochu What's your exact claim?

However, honestly I think Rainbow Cloud is worth looking into at some point. I feel like he's been flying under the radar in this game a lot. Early D1, it took until voting TheCapsFan to really give substantial thoughts on anyone, and he said that Caps was jumping on a small thing with Zorchic (when at that point, frankly there wasn't much to work with) and trying to start a small wagon, when he was the person who actually started the wagon and would have no way of knowing that it would pick up steam. Kept the Caps vote the entire rest of the phase, even when things had clearly gotten to the point that Caps was never going to be the day's lynch target. Gives the "pretty slow on day 1" meta reasoning for why he isn't very active on that phase, but hasn't made any large pushes even now that we're in D2, instead following the Jinjo vote and almost entirely focusing on Jinjo alone this phase, despite having suspected Caps and Pika in D1 and reiterating that suspicion in N1. RC did say

but it doesn't change that RC hasn't pushed or really questioned anyone but Jinjo this phase, not even Caps who they claim to still be unsure of.

I was actually thinking of Rainbow Cloud right now about how he has been flying under the radar despite his posts. I was thinking similarly along your lines, but you thought it all through.

 

[HumanDawn]

That would be difficult to do though. Like, how would Town go about it publicly? If say, a Doctor targets Pika and dies, then how can we confirm that it was the PGO?

OH WAIT NVM this is in the context he is scum...

 

[FinalArcadia]

OH WAIT NVM this is in the context he is scum...

Yeah, I was meaning that if he was scum and faking a claim to try to prevent getting caught through a copcheck, tracker, vig, whatever, then that claim falls apart the moment someone tries to challenge it if the action went through and that player reveals they targeted Pika and lived. Ascetic could probably go either way alignment-wise, but Pika's been doubling down on the "kill" aspect, so if he is something like PGO or some kind of night bomb, that would almost have to be town to not punish town for correct plays, bastard or not.

 

[Rainbow Cloud]

but it doesn't change that RC hasn't pushed or really questioned anyone but Jinjo this phase, not even Caps who they claim to still be unsure of.

I did question Caps about why he didn't seem to be counting the possibility the mafia could have just chose Snowy for the kill and gotten lucky prior to looking at Jinjo. I wasn't keen on how he seemed pretty sold on the idea Snowy must have visited Pika and died that way.

I do think if you think I'm scum though the I think you should be voting for me, same for Jinjo.

I will take a risk and claim though as I do not believe my role to be that useful to town and could have negative consequences. My role causes other players roles to activate randomly without their control, I targeted Caps with it last night.

 

[HumanDawn]

Zorchic has made 4 posts since the game started. How does that equate to being jumpy with their accusations?

@TheCapsFan This was directed to you in Day 1, but come N1, you didn’t reply to this quote by Snowy. I know Zorchic was already lynched, but I don’t think that would justify ignoring a direct question to you asking you to explain your vote better.

 

[HumanDawn]

I did question Caps about why he didn't seem to be counting the possibility the mafia could have just chose Snowy for the kill and gotten lucky prior to looking at Jinjo. I wasn't keen on how he seemed pretty sold on the idea Snowy must have visited Pika and died that way.

I do think if you think I'm scum though the I think you should be voting for me, same for Jinjo.

I will take a risk and claim though as I do not believe my role to be that useful to town and could have negative consequences. My role causes other players roles to activate randomly without their control, I targeted Caps with it last night.

Which post were you thinking in particular regarding TheCapsFan being sure it was Pika’s role that caused Snowy’s death? The one he voted him first with? That was a nonsensical vote, incredibly jumpy, which he accused Zorchic of being scum for too.

I noted that TheCapsFan has been online at least twice after I quoted him. Obviously it doesn’t necessarily mean anything but it’s something to keep in mind.

And thus we have our second bastard claim... feels like more of a scum role, but with how you outed it like that I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for now. I don’t blame your choice. I would like more info from TheCapsFan but knowing that would result in claiming from him, I wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to share. If he shares anything it would be that his role was activated against his will and randomized.

Who do you think his role would fit which character, @FinalArcadia?

 

[Feenie]

I'm tired, so this is going to look like a really lazy post but

Serious question, what makes a vote onto someone who already has a vote "sheeping"? Like when is that not sheeping? I feel like the term sheeping is used wayyyy too often. All the years I've played mafia and this is still a ? subject for me.

 

[HumanDawn]

I'm tired, so this is going to look like a really lazy post but

Serious question, what makes a vote onto someone who already has a vote "sheeping"? Like when is that not sheeping? I feel like the term sheeping is used wayyyy too often. All the years I've played mafia and this is still a ? subject for me.

It’s really when no original or personal reason is given when voting a wagon.

Mafia is a paranoia game so by nature people are more on edge regarding stuff like this.

—-

I was thinking over my Exlight read - I expected him to post more but I recall him mentioning that he has important exams in the ZD Discord. From what he posted I see his Town self more and everything he has posted feels completely in-character, so even if he has less, he has less for justifiable reason, and it’s good, natural content.

 

[HumanDawn]

@Lone_Garurumon

If a majority of players willed it - I was wondering if we could have 48 hour phases instead of 72 hour phases.

Not saying I want 48 hours btw.

 

[Feenie]

It’s really when no original or personal reason is given when voting a wagon.

That makes sense.

I was thinking over my Exlight read - I expected him to post more but I recall him mentioning that he has important exams in the ZD Discord. From what he posted I see his Town self more and everything he has posted feels completely in-character, so even if he has less, he has less for justifiable reason, and it’s good, natural content.

I'm glad you gave that context there because I was starting to wonder about Ex and his activity level but knowing that helps. When he can, I'm curious about his opinions on things that have happened since his last post.