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Mafia Archie Sonic Mafia, Endgame: TBA (4/8/20)

Kind of weird of you to say you don't think I was commenting on Fatima much when in the same post you mention here, I mention Fatima first?
It's still not much imo though?
What's "hiding alignment" even supposed to mean? do you think they're indept or something?

I'm not sure why you would hate it considering the context? I'm pretty sure I said before that Zorchic not posting was really scummy.
I don't see how this isn't still a 180º given that in page 11 you were still like "omg RC we're MINDMELDING" with the "I'm not too keen on the Zorchic wagon". In 21 minutes you're telling me you stopped thinking his wagon was bad to him being who you wanted to lynch for the day?
 
Anyway, I have nothing of use to add to this discussion, so I'm just going to throw out that I'm a survivor because :wynaut:
Is your role only survivor or do you have some kind of ability to help you survive?
I could give reads but would mean going to each players page individually and copying their name and that could take at least an hour
Even just taking the player list and giving thoughts on them (or literally anyone at this point) without any quotes would be better than nothing. Here's the player list as of D2 you can quote, so now there's nothing in your way:

Rainbow Cloud
Midorikawa
FinalArcadia
DekuNut
ExLight
Luminary
DawningWinds
Space
TheCapsFan
Pika_pika42
Jinjo
Pikochu
Tood
HumanDawn
Why are you apologizing for calling out his lurkiness :surppika:
You should be shaming him instead
I mean... you're not wrong there about the shaming part lol

But I legit didn't know that DekuNut was/is a well-known lurker, and I didn't mean to come off as sarcastic in saying I thought he was usually more active, so I did kinda feel bad getting that wrong and apologized for it.
HumanDawn said:
I kind of don't like you voting DekuNut again, but I can't say that I'm against it, and you explained your reads on the other wagons at least.
What is it about the vote that you don't like?
 
Rainbow Cloud

I had a hard time figuring out who you were allied with but if I had to guess then I would put you down as Mafia


Midorikawa

Town it's quite easy to see


FinalArcadia

I've had a harder time going over who you were allied with and I still am


DekuNut

I'd have to go with Mafia quite easily


ExLight

Town cause his posts haven't said anything that I see as otherwise


I'll start with these and do the remaining ones later on
 
Sorry I was more frustrated with Human and having reiterate myself, that and all this COvid At work so I let that leaked through.
That's alright, I can understand but please be a bit careful from next time.

Anyways I should rephrase that. I believe you are lying. I technically can’t prove it. But the point remains is you’re accusing Soace of doing nothing when you have done nothing. It’s the pot calling the kettle black. Though in reality while her contributions may not stick out as much and some of her posts are questionable there is still effort and doing soemthong there.
I still don't get it why you think I am lying. I agree I haven't done much in this game, if you want to lynch me for that, you can do so but I seriously don't understand where have I lied.
As for Space, I don't mean to say that they have not done anything but none of their posts have stood out and all of their votes look sheepy to me which makes them suspicious in my eyes.

In re PP42: I did find it weird that PP42 claimed "don't cop check me" and then it implies that Aussie visited PP42 and therefore, PP42 is scum. If that theory were to hold true, then it would have to imply that mafia targeted someone and that target was doc protected. I'm not sure if Aussie and PP42 being connected last night is a thing. It is more likely that PP42 is trying to hide something with the "don't investigate me" post.
There is no guarantee that Snowy visited me, it might have also been a lucky kill for mafia. I have already listed the 3 possibilities of how Snowy could have died. I was not trying to hide anything, just warned the cop that checking me would be a big risk.

Actually - I would argue the opposite. Assuming both are Town - they go very well together, like as if they can be synchronized.

Rainbow Cloud targets Mafia. Mafia's target is randomized. His random target is on Pika_Pika42. Suddenly both of their roles become more useful and have more meaning in the game.

Bastard roles are potentially negative by nature, but there are those that can also be potentially positive. If Mafia targets Pika_Pika42, then it would be a positive role.
Thanks for all the defence HD but I think this is enough now. It seems like you and Mido are constantly going over the same points and there's no end to that.
I would like if you would put that energy into scumhunting. There's still some time left in the phase, we all could make better use of it.
 
It's still not much imo though?

I even talked about Fatima's early soft two posts before that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. There's probably more too. How much were you expecting I talk about Fatima, and what's the point you are trying to make with it?

What's "hiding alignment" even supposed to mean? do you think they're indept or something?

I explained it already in the same post:

Hmm, I’m not feeling it with Fatima. “Care to take a guess as to which alignment we are with?” is a strange thing to say but I can’t exactly explain why. My mind tells me he is hiding something rare about his alignment, because that would make it more interesting to try to guess right, which would explain why he would would bother asking it, but I could really be looking too much into it and it becomes a situation where my mind sees things that aren’t there.

So yeah, I considered he could be an Independent too, though he's claiming "Townie" which I don't think Fatima would say as an Independent because of upfront he is about his roles. I don't think it means much, I'm probably just imagining it.

I don't see how this isn't still a 180º given that in page 11 you were still like "omg RC we're MINDMELDING" with the "I'm not too keen on the Zorchic wagon". In 21 minutes you're telling me you stopped thinking his wagon was bad to him being who you wanted to lynch for the day?

I didn't argue that I didn't do a 180º though, I argued that I didn't do it for no reason ;) - it's in the same paragraph of that sentence actually. Which 21 minutes between which posts are you talking about? Regardless, TheCapsFan had the higher ground on the basis that Zorchic reacted to my in-game post but then proceeded to not say anything... At that point, I started to think that TheCapsFan could be right and that Zorchic could have been Mafia who just didn't know what to say. He started the game with a few posts, got 3 voted on him, reacted to one of my posts, and then boom, nothing. Also, if he had time to go read an old game, he should have time to post at least once in-thread after the wagon was built on him. I thought it would make a lot more sense to pop in and least say he was busy... or anything, but he didn't even give the bare minimum.

Those were my train of thoughts during that Day so I hope that clears things up for you!

---

Do you have any thoughts on other players?

What is it about the vote that you don't like?

Because it's the same vote with pretty much the same reasoning as last time. It's repeated, so we don't end up with that much new content or a more differentiated voting history. Midorikawa voted Pika_Pika42 again today, but at least there was new reasoning to it.
 
But how is my defense of Pika_pika42 fake? I don't defend him for no reason. If you're admitting that your paranoia sounds fake, how can you say my defense of Pika_Pika42 sounds fake as well? Wouldn't that mean that your paranoia shouldn't sound fake because you should be Town and thus it should be real?

Your defense of Pikapika is very tunnel-vision. It's very absolute and positive where you refuse to see the perfectly logical reasoning as to why Pikapika would lie. That's making it sound overly emphasized and fake. I'm not saying that my paranoia is fake. I genuinely think that you and Pikapika are scumbuds, you decided to try and cover up for him, and decided to try and spout all these reasons why he's town to just autoconfirm him.

Oh, okay, but then why would you say "big deal HD is trying to make it out to be." if it was worthy of a policy lynch if it were Day 1?

Because your response felt unnecessary extravagant, when there are other better lynch options out there; pushing Fatima there and making a big deal about it then takes away from the focus of the game which should be scumhunting. If it was a slip (and I think we've clarified that it isn't, and is just a mis-hit with quotes), then it would be something I would want to see pushed at the end of the day.

Could be purely non-optimal play. It happens a lot when you are new to a role you've never had before, but considering the situation, it makes sense for a Town player in that moment to be paranoid of what would happen if he was targeted with the 3 votes he had on him. Again... if he was Mafia, he could have been more direct that it would actually kill the player targetting him and that way manage to distract all roles from him.

No but the thing is, he said that he was trying to bait mafia towards him though, and even if it's not optimal play it still doesn't add up with what he was trying to do! If he is really town baiting mafia he stays silent or claims PR. But he didn't do that, so that's probably not what he was actually doing, and then made himself look worse by saying that he has KP after the fact, which is NOT TOWNY. And Pikapika is a pretty experienced player, I don't think he would really be fazed by new roles.

For the record, I also never said I would permanently keep the Town read on Pika_Pika42, and already explained before "Considering the game's status as a bastard game, a PGO being in the game is much more likely.", but it seems like you and Tood make it out to be that I'm Townreading Pika_Pika42 and decide to ignore everything else I've said. :unsure:

First sentence is WIFOM. And no, unlike Tood, I'm trying to actually see it from your perspective, and some of what you're saying is logical, but I don't think that it is towny for you to be all gung-ho about your townread. I feel like town!you would still be skeptical about it and entertain all possibilities, but nope! Top town immediately.
 
I'm not too bothered by the scumreads as much as I should be, honestly.

This is an interesting thing to say; it sounds towny at first, because town should never truly be bothered by scumreads in my opinion. Unless you're getting scumread by the entire game (in which, scum is probably leading the town along to scumread you). But then he says "as much as I should be" which kinda sounds like a scum perspective, as in, he should be worried that people are scumreading him because he is, in fact, scum.

I'm the only vote on Tood though? What is there to be that exasperated about when he's got a single vote in a phase where there are like three other players with more votes than him, and anyone else who's mentioned Tood as someone to look at hasn't really questioned him this phase?

That's fair, I just know that most of the thread has agreed with me that Tood is scummy/one to look at over the course of the game and I think this is the first time that's been the case?

You're avoiding acknowledging the game's bastard set-up and the virtue of his bastard claim. Not acknowledging stuff like this can lead to mislynches and is not a pro-Town mindset.

Your tunnel-vision isn't a pro-Town mindset, either. And honestly...I don't think I would even call PGO a bastard role. It's just a bomb that's a bit worse/less town-sided.
 
Your defense of Pikapika is very tunnel-vision. It's very absolute and positive where you refuse to see the perfectly logical reasoning as to why Pikapika would lie. That's making it sound overly emphasized and fake. I'm not saying that my paranoia is fake. I genuinely think that you and Pikapika are scumbuds, you decided to try and cover up for him, and decided to try and spout all these reasons why he's town to just autoconfirm him.

It's positive but it's not absolute. Given time as we learn more about the game from a mechanical point of view, I can rethink Pika_Pika42 more deeply. I already argued against the reasoning that I don't see is perfectly logical. I would argue the same that mine is perfectly logical too, and that would bring in a natural clash in thoughts. Sure, you can logically think ways he could still be Mafia, but I came to think that he's more likely to be Town than not.

Shoot me in the foot if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I feel like even if Pika_Pika42 was Mafia and I with him, I wouldn't bother defending him so much because of the connection it would bring to us. You saw my Champs game - no strings attached, and I bussed my two partners without much reconsideration. Considering a Cop died I would think that bussing would become more appealing to me to ensure I have longevity.

Can you point which post I autoconfirmed Pika_Pika42? Because I never once said he was confirmed as Town.

Because your response felt unnecessary extravagant, when there are other better lynch options out there; pushing Fatima there and making a big deal about it then takes away from the focus of the game which should be scumhunting. If it was a slip (and I think we've clarified that it isn't, and is just a mis-hit with quotes), then it would be something I would want to see pushed at the end of the day.

I didn't make a big deal out of it, I didn't talk much about it. Didn't even vote Fatima for it - I asked what people thought and not many agreed, and I think even I said I was probably paranoid, so I don't see where the extravagance is from.

No but the thing is, he said that he was trying to bait mafia towards him though, and even if it's not optimal play it still doesn't add up with what he was trying to do! If he is really town baiting mafia he stays silent or claims PR. But he didn't do that, so that's probably not what he was actually doing, and then made himself look worse by saying that he has KP after the fact, which is NOT TOWNY. And Pikapika is a pretty experienced player, I don't think he would really be fazed by new roles.

He was trying to not get the Cop to check him but be vague enough that maybe Mafia still targets him later down the line. He can't stay both silent to bait the Mafia to kill him and protect Town PRs from targetting him, so he tries to make up for that by not saying it would kill

I'm fazed by new roles all the time, so I can't say I wouldn't be able to relate.

First sentence is WIFOM. And no, unlike Tood, I'm trying to actually see it from your perspective, and some of what you're saying is logical, but I don't think that it is towny for you to be all gung-ho about your townread. I feel like town!you would still be skeptical about it and entertain all possibilities, but nope! Top town immediately.

How is it WIFOM? You said it was bad I put him Top Town and that it's a detriment, and I disagreed because it would only be a detriment if I said I would permanently keep him that way.

I am gung-ho about my Town read because I don't want a mislynch. Could you explain how you think that's not towny?

I'm still skeptical and I've already entertained the possibilities and came to the conclusion that because he is the first bastard claim in a bastard game he has the benefit of the doubt.
 
It's positive but it's not absolute. Given time as we learn more about the game from a mechanical point of view, I can rethink Pika_Pika42 more deeply. I already argued against the reasoning that I don't see is perfectly logical. I would argue the same that mine is perfectly logical too, and that would bring in a natural clash in thoughts. Sure, you can logically think ways he could still be Mafia, but I came to think that he's more likely to be Town than not.

@TheCapsFan, if you're going to argue about me not seeing the "perfectly logical reasoning" as to why Pika_Pika42 would lie (which I do, but I don't agree is the case for my own reasons), you could say the same about Midorikawa who tunneled Pika_Pika42 hard (and is the only thing I can remember her doing this entire phase despite posting so much) and strongly narrowed down Pika_Pika42 to being either Mafia or Independent:

vote: pika pika on your speaka
If he was town then he would have either A) Kept quiet to hopefully catch mafia and took the risk to try to kill mafia with his ability or B) fully come out because mafia ain’t dumb enough to target him with a claim like that especially when the person is a good mislynch candidate. And that’s staying the obvious actions.

Thus in reality he’s either A) Mafia looking to get heat off of him and was worried about a cop check or B) An indep probably anti town

Yet, I'm the one who is being inconsiderate about what Pika_Pika42's alignment is for arguing against Midorikawa's tunneled conclusions?
 
This is an interesting thing to say; it sounds towny at first, because town should never truly be bothered by scumreads in my opinion. Unless you're getting scumread by the entire game (in which, scum is probably leading the town along to scumread you). But then he says "as much as I should be" which kinda sounds like a scum perspective, as in, he should be worried that people are scumreading him because he is, in fact, scum.

Or because he's a player in the game and he should care more about living to help win the game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

This is a reach and it worries me you aren't showing any paranoia over it.

Your tunnel-vision isn't a pro-Town mindset, either. And honestly...I don't think I would even call PGO a bastard role. It's just a bomb that's a bit worse/less town-sided.

I think there's a chance Pika_Pika42 is Mafia.

Midorikawa doesn't think there's any way he can be Town though, and that's worrisome.

"PGOs are generally only used as a somewhat bastard role in Role Madness games (where in the worst case they can kill many players at once), or in games where they fit flavor".
 
Ok I said this already but can we please move on to some other discussions, this topic is just going round and round. What if Mido and HD are both town and they are constantly arguing regarding me (another town), the mafia must be laughing about all this as they just get another day to live freely.

Can everyone share their top 2 Town and Scum reads? This will generate more discussion and we will get to know everyone's opinions.
 
I need to look over the thread before getting back to a vote. I feel like I'm focusing too much of my energy on Pika_Pika42 that would be better off spent elsewhere.

Hm...I wonder how much of HD's time and energy has been spent on Pikapika since this post. Could be interesting to come back to.

@TheCapsFan This was directed to you in Day 1, but come N1, you didn’t reply to this quote by Snowy. I know Zorchic was already lynched, but I don’t think that would justify ignoring a direct question to you asking you to explain your vote better.

To answer, then, I think "jumpy" is a wrong word for it, and that's on me, I was more trying to draw attention to the fact that his suspicions and actions had no foundation. I think my thought process was along the lines of "well he says he voted Midorikawa as a pressure vote where there was no reason to do so and now he's sussing me for not giving in-depth reads when i've said they're just gut/vibe reads,"

If he shares anything it would be that his role was activated against his will and randomized.

To which it was.
 
Something else to add, I kept this back hoping scum might target me but there's just as much chance it could hurt town, my role also works passively albeit a night later so if anyone targeted me during night 1 their roles will activate randomly during night 2.

See now THIS is towny because RC is being PROACTIVE about making sure that any negative effects from his role are clearly stated with what they do and how they can negatively effect LONG BEFORE the night phase and relatively close in timing to his claim.

...But I do think that it is a pretty anti-town role and the chances of both it and PGO existing in the same game is a bit sus. And seeing as I know that RC is at least telling the truth about his role here I believe Pikapika a lot less.

Yknow what I'm just gonna go ahead and

[UNVOTE]: DawningWinds if I hadn't already and
[VOTE]: Pika_pika42

because a) I think he's lying scum and b) I think we can get the most info out of his lynch. Best case scenario, he's lying scum. Worst case scenario, he's telling the truth as town, we lose an anti-town role, we can analyze his wagon, there's plenty of content across the day regarding him to look at interactions with.
 
Ok I said this already but can we please move on to some other discussions, this topic is just going round and round. What if Mido and HD are both town and they are constantly arguing regarding me (another town), the mafia must be laughing about all this as they just get another day to live freely.

Can everyone share their top 2 Town and Scum reads? This will generate more discussion and we will get to know everyone's opinions.

Yeah, this is my worry too, because not many people are joining in, or bringing only a few things. I've actually considered Mido as Town and that she could just be her aggressive self.

There's actually still over 24 hours left, so lots of time left for me, don't worry :) . I still plan on making a complete reads down the line, it's been a while since I've had to do one with 14 players so that will take more time to finalize.

My Top 2 Town reads not counting roles are FinalArcadia and Luminary. I feel big game solving vibes from their energy, like they're always trying to get the game moving and going on and they usually aren't stuck in one place, and if they are, it's for good reason. After that, ExLight for the reasons I said earlier. I trust both Pika and RainbowCloud's roles and I've said why on Rainbow Cloud on my post after he revealed it.

I actually think Tood's claim gives me doubt that he is Mafia. Yeah, it's convenient, but with no other Independent claim he has the benefit of the doubt. I still think he should out his role though. Wouldn't be mad if he was lynched even if I think we should focus more on Mafia.

I've been looking over the thread and planning on making a reads list down the line, but I expected more people to show up before thinking too deeply on the order of my reads, and DawningWinds is annoyingly still MIA so that's going to make the situation on him (people who voted him I mean) much harder to read and potentially lead to another Zorchic situation. I'm paranoid of TheCapsFan, and worried of Snowy considering her vote record. Otherwise, just lots of inactivity from lots of players or not a lot of content to sift through. Jinjo I'm still wary of, but not as much as in the beginning.
 
Anyway, I have nothing of use to add to this discussion, so I'm just going to throw out that I'm a survivor because :wynaut:

Honestly, if I were a vigi that was not X-shot I would shoot this. Especially if lynch flips town today.

Reason is because a) I don't trust survivor claims anymore and b) if lynch flips town today they are much more likely to mafia side.
 
...But I do think that it is a pretty anti-town role and the chances of both it and PGO existing in the same game is a bit sus. And seeing as I know that RC is at least telling the truth about his role here I believe Pikapika a lot less.

I've never met with a role like it, but I thought over it, and, is it really that different than a roleblocker? The role still works at least, and it's only problematic depending on the role it's used on itself.

[UNVOTE]: DawningWinds
if I hadn't already and
[VOTE]: Pika_pika42

because a) I think he's lying scum and b) I think we can get the most info out of his lynch. Best case scenario, he's lying scum. Worst case scenario, he's telling the truth as town, we lose an anti-town role, we can analyze his wagon, there's plenty of content across the day regarding him to look at interactions with.

It's not anti-Town anymore if Town is told beforehand about its effects ;) .

I've already said my piece multiple times here so I don't think I can do much else to change this.
 
So...



... you were lying here? What changed your mind to tell the truth?

Yep.

The thing that made me change my mind was the second part of RC's claim which I did not catch the first time I read through earlier today. It made me trust his alignment as town a lot more.
 
Am I the only one here who is having a hard time believing Tood's survivor claim? It looked convenient when he said he's a survivor after I voted him.

@HumanDawn @TheCapsFan Since you guys are both here what do you think of DekuNut? I'm also getting a bad feeling about him.
 
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