Mafia Archie Sonic Mafia, Endgame: TBA (4/8/20)

[HumanDawn]

It's a good thing I was not on the Pikochu wagon since that would mean I will get killed off soon.

I would like to talk more about ZinnLav and DekuNut. ZinnLav made his catchup post saying he read up to page 24 and then he votes Pika. Why would ZinnLav even bother on voting Pika when he hasn't finished reading everything? This looks like scum who tried to get Pika lynched instead of Pikochu. Next is DekuNut and the fact that Pikochu has been voting DekuNut makes DekuNut look even more worse and this looks like big time distancing to me. If Pikochu didn't vote DekuNut so much then that would have made DekuNut look better.

Whoever quoted me I'll answer later since I just wanted to get this out of the way and I need to take care of some stuff.

Good point on ZinnLav, Jinjo.

Wait these are actually really good points.

This got me thinking...If Zinn is, in fact, mafia, is it possible that all three? mafia are inactives/lowposters? Maybe Snowy DID target Pikapika and then there was just no nightkill?

lame

Pika Pika - Kind of still not sure on Pika but not to keen on these posts:

Feels like this one may be casting shade on me a bit here with the line about the mafia wanting a mislynch anyway given my recent post directed at Zinn about a tie not giving us any information. Also seems a tie may be Pika's preferred outcome at this point.

Where did he throw shade at you? He focused on how the wagon came to be so quickly - I got paranoid too after Fatima voted Pikochu and shared my paranoia as well.

Tood - Still not too sure on his survivour claim and think there's more to it that he's holding back. Need to hear more from them.

I'm not even going to calculate Tood unless we get another Independent claim or flip. This isn't a bastard game, but rather, a game with bastard elements, so I guess Survivor fits in the average roles here which seem to be the majority so far.

Jinjo - Still reading Jinjo as town, nothing's really changed from when I gave my last read on her.

Space - Leaning scum on Space, has been sheeping during the game and the 5th vote on Jinjo during day 2 felt opportunistic like they were just trying to push the lynch through and didn't give much in the way of reason behind it.

Yeah I would say Space look really bad. I think she may have actually slipped when she said she found DawningWinds suspicious because he voted Zorchic - which he didn't do at all, ergo she may very well have slipped in making a fake read on them.

Caps - Leaning scum on Caps, not to keen on these posts in particular:

This very much looks like setting up the next line of attack here, he's linking me with Pika, pretty much saying I look town and my claim is more believable but if Pika flips town, that's all subject to change because he doesn't believe we can both be town. I very much think if the vote had gone the other way and Pika flipped as town, I'd be being lined up for the lynch day 3.

What's even more alarming about this is that he argued with me that Pika_Pika42's role is arguably not bastard but then around that time, put you up against each other. If your role is bastard and Pika_Pika42's isn't, then why would he think they conflict as being possible? IIRC this was before I linked to him that PGO is considered usually bastard.

Again says he is convinced we can't be on the same team thus reiterating that Pika's potential flip is linked to my alignment. Either Caps is really convinced Pika is going to flip scum or he's already planning tomorrow's lynch.

Planning for tomorrow's lynch based on stuff that makes no sense.

This post seems to show he's only committed to this outcome which would make sense if the above is what he was planning.

TheCapsFan has been really fishy almost this entire game. I can't stop getting back to him.

Zinn - Leaning Null to Sum, tied up the vote which could have led to Piko being saved and no information for town. She did take off the vote after I mentioned her and said she didn't realise her vote would cause a tie. Claims to have only caught up on day 1 which would make sense with the reads she gave, however she did seem to have knowledge of the case against Pika from more recent posts which goes against this a bit. My concern is scum could easily try to tie up the votes here and pretend to be unaware of the situation, while taking the vote off when the tie is pointed out looks better it is could also be the sensible thing for scum to do if what you were doing hadn't gone unnoticed.

Good point.

 

[HumanDawn]

Hmm... Could you explain these reads more to me? Feels kind of weird that your top two town reads also happen to be people voting alongside you.

@Feenie

Why did you Town read Space and TheCapsFan?

 

[Midorikawa]

This also counts for me too btw, but I know I'm Town.

I hate this. It’s one thing to point out townie actions when defending yourself from being lynched. And it’s always good to comment on others town actions but randomly tossing in your own and making it obvious, I hate it. I find it scummy and it looks more like trying to ge town to trust you so you can manipulate them.

Most likely scum in my eyes as of now:

TheCapsFan / Space / DekuNut / ZinnLav

Wow you flipped on deku real quick.

 

[HumanDawn]

I hate this. It’s one thing to point out townie actions when defending yourself from being lynched. And it’s always good to comment on others town actions but randomly tossing in your own and making it obvious, I hate it. I find it scummy and it looks more like trying to ge town to trust you so you can manipulate them.

yeah, ok, i guess i should consider myself as a potential bus partner when trying to hunt scum ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i was only admitting that under those conditions i put FA under as potential bus partner, they account for me too for the perspective of others

Wow you flipped on deku real quick.

Nope, he didn't look that much better, and he only did because of how Null he has been the entire game. I also felt sparks in my head when FA went on about how Pikochu has used the strategy of voting their partners early on for distancing points with the Zexy example.

 

[HumanDawn]

@Jinjo are you still going to vote Tood tomorrow?

 

[FinalArcadia]

Wow, nice catch! I reread Pikochu's posts and he mentioned TheCapsFan a lot too but never did anything with it. Maybe all his interactions with TheCapsFan were distancing attempts as well?

Could you link the Chaos Game you're talking about?

All the way back in Chaos Mafia II, where you were actually scum with Pikochu lol. looking back at that game physically pains me because you guys killed me right when I was pinning you as mafia, and then you went on to win the whole game I was wrong about the late update vote thing; what actually got Piko in trouble with the spy was mentioning he got ninja'd in the mafia chat, which was easy to trace to his Zexy vote. But he did do a purposeful distancing with Zexy here, though I'd forgotten that this happened once Zexy was already under pressure and it was their attempt to make the best of Zexy getting lynched by staging a big "suspicion" on each other. So it may not be quite as applicable as I thought since the circumstances are a little different. It does show that Pikochu is definitely willing to interact with his scumbuddies through votes, though.

 

[HumanDawn]

Well then, let's agree to disagree then. Of course you're going to always disagree with the negative vibes I'm getting around your posts for your own self-preservation, anyway.

if i agreed to disagree i would be letting town reads be lynched

also, well, yeah, of course i'm always going to defend myself? feels like you're implying that what i say doesn't matter if i'm going to defend myself anyway

If you're going to put it that way, yeah, you never autoconfirmed him. But in your world he's out of the lynch picture today, and I genuinely disagree with that.

indeed he was out of my lynch picture, but from what we knew, we knew more about him than anyone else, and it wasn't really that scummy, maybe anti-town, but not scummy.

And I'm saying that if he were to put himself in Mafia's shoes then he should see there's no real reason FOR Mafia to target him. I've already gone into that.

I know that's what you're saying, and I agree, but that doesn't mean every Town is going to come to that conclusion. It's a difficult spot to be in with a difficult role. I see Town trying to make the best of both worlds in an effort to maybe get Mafia to target him. I probably would have done the same because claiming PGO in Night 1 just sounds bad. I would have probably not mentioned the Cop specifically to target me, but any PRs. Still gives the Mafia info though - so I guess the optimal play would really to just not say anything and hope for the best?

Maybe it's not totally WIFOM, but it's still sus. Did you ever say that you would potentially re-evaluate your read on him later in the game before that post? If you did, then I missed it, but if not, then you're over here super sure in your town read and yet you leave it to US to make the conjecture that no, you might possibly maybe not be super sure in it.

Oh, sure. It was in one of my replies to you here

My statement was to emphasize how much I don't think he should be lynched considering the game state at that point.

That's fine and all. I don't want a mislynch either. But if we are to mislynch I'd rather get rid of a role that has the potential to hurt town.

But he outed it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Only way it's likely to hurt Town now is if Rainbow Cloud targets a Town with his role and then that role goes to Pika_Pika42 assuming both are true.

You see the issue now with claiming PGO? Players like you who would be more comfortable lynching it for reasons like that.

Well it makes sense now given his claim, which I am very paranoid about (and I think you know that).

It makes sense now, but you still showed no paranoia over your original statement on Tood before the claim. You're paranoid of something new, not what you should have been originally paranoid about.

 

[HumanDawn]

All the way back in Chaos Mafia II, where you were actually scum with Pikochu lol. looking back at that game physically pains me because you guys killed me right when I was pinning you as mafia, and then you went on to win the whole game I was wrong about the late update vote thing; what actually got Piko in trouble with the spy was mentioning he got ninja'd in the mafia chat, which was easy to trace to his Zexy vote. But he did do a purposeful distancing with Zexy here, though I'd forgotten that this happened once Zexy was already under pressure and it was their attempt to make the best of Zexy getting lynched by staging a big "suspicion" on each other. So it may not be quite as applicable as I thought since the circumstances are a little different. It does show that Pikochu is definitely willing to interact with his scumbuddies through votes, though.

OH WOW OK I REMEMBER THAT GAME...

It's the game I submitted Victini, and Calvin decided to Lover me because it's the character I submitted, so I decided to fake Masons with him. Damn, I must have really made you distrust me after that game! I just read the first post in our QT together and I wrote SO much, I can see why you would originally ease up on me and trust me! I see, it's not as strong as you made it out to be, but it's still good.

oh my god it's 2:30am and i'm so tired... i still haven't made a complete reads list...

i will probably read the thread fast today morning but i'd probably lynch space tomorrow - she's been MIA this phase

 

[Jinjo]

@Jinjo are you still going to vote Tood tomorrow?

ZinnLav, DekuNut, Tood, and Space are the players I'm scum reading and I can just hop on any of their wagon. If Tood really is an independent, then I can still see him as a dangerous independent and he could be a cult leader or an arsonist.

 

[ExLight]

that's a lot of big posts sigh
will start catching up soon

 

[ExLight]

btw it's interesting the Rolecop is the one who got lynched, if a bus had happened I would've expected it to be maybe the godfather since cop died or a weaker role, that makes me think the wagon might've been full town unless scum voted early in it and kinda got themselves locked in it because jumping off it after the wagon exploded would look weird

 

[Midorikawa]

btw it's interesting the Rolecop is the one who got lynched, if a bus had happened I would've expected it to be maybe the godfather since cop died or a weaker role, that makes me think the wagon might've been full town unless scum voted early in it and kinda got themselves locked in it because jumping off it after the wagon exploded would look weird

So you don’t think it’s possible mafia had better role than rolecop?

 

[ExLight]

So you don’t think it’s possible mafia had better role than rolecop?

Not really what I'm saying.
Deciding what's "a better role" is kinda tricky, but Rolecop is pretty strong at early game so I don't think it was a bus planned by mafia.
If it was around D4 they'd prolly be able to have figured out everyone's role based on claims+rolecop checks+kills, which would make more sense for a rolecop bus, but not D2.

So what I'm saying is that it's likely they had something that is now weaker (godfather) and that if a planned bus happened I'd've expected it to be the one that died. Does that make sense?

 

[Midorikawa]

Not really what I'm saying.
Deciding what's "a better role" is kinda tricky, but Rolecop is pretty strong at early game so I don't think it was a bus planned by mafia.
If it was around D4 they'd prolly be able to have figured out everyone's role based on claims+rolecop checks+kills, which would make more sense for a rolecop bus, but not D2.

So what I'm saying is that it's likely they had something that is now weaker (godfather) and that if a planned bus happened I'd've expected it to be the one that died. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And what do you think of the possibility of the lynch being between two mafia?

On that note who are your top lynch candidates come say phase.

 

[ExLight]

On that note who are your top lynch candidates come say phase.

who comes first to my mind is like poking hd and zinn a bit more
i don't really like fatima saying they answer stuff, posting, and disappearing but they did vote pikochu and i think they softed so they kinda ok but idfk
maybe policy lynch pika to abvoid rng backfire with rainbow cloud which could give info since they're not 100% cleared
and maybe poke around space/caps since they tried to focus on pika who is a ? atm

if i HAD to pick two right now for top wagons tomorrow it would be Space and Zinn to poke around a bit

 

[TheCapsFan]

lame

Spoiler

Wow you flipped on deku real quick.

Nah he's probably actually only scumreading Deku because Deku fits well with Space and I in his world where the two of us are scum.

Oh, sure. It was in one of my replies to you here

My statement was to emphasize how much I don't think he should be lynched considering the game state at that point.

Where in there do you say (or imply, for that matter) that "I may consider changing my read on Pikapika later down the line?"

Only way it's likely to hurt Town now is if Rainbow Cloud targets a Town with his role and then that role goes to Pika_Pika42 assuming both are true.

which, as the player list shortens in number, becomes more and more likely.

Clearly the game is not with me on the Pikapika train, and that's fine, I'm not going to waste my time with it any longer. You win, HD.

 

[Space]

I was not trying to hide anything, just warned the cop that checking me would be a big risk.

went from "mafia bait" to "warning"

I genuinely think that you and Pikapika are scumbuds

Do you still think this?

Am I the only one here who is having a hard time believing Tood's survivor claim? It looked convenient when he said he's a survivor after I voted him.

Tood's random survivor claim is definitely weird & seems a bit too plain (? for lack of a better word) but its not unlikely to think there isnt an indep in this game so it's w/e I guess

Regarding Tood's survivor claim, I'm leaning more to believing him being indep but think there may be more to his claim than he's letting on.

wouldn't that mean he's detrimental to town then, if he's got something to hide?

That being said, going through Space's posts I noticed that a lot of them are centered around Fatima. Dunno if this is tunneling because Fatima is an easy target, or if they just don't have a lot to say about others? Idk

but I said Fatima looked town? I did agree with Human that his one post was strange & could be a scum slip though.

voted

Space

your quotes got screwed up & I'm too lazy to fix them rn, but I think I remember what I wanted to say: 1) there's no way to prove this but i did not "slip" with the DawningWinds thing. 2) at one point you said scum is the most afraid of getting lynched, but then later you said a player would want to survive to help win the game -- what is the difference then?

Anyway, what's the definition for someone sheeping?

 

[HumanDawn]

Spoiler

if your biggest worry is seemingly all scum being inactive and not putting in the kill N1... then try harder (you probably have something else though?)

Nah he's probably actually only scumreading Deku because Deku fits well with Space and I in his world where the two of us are scum.

Where in there do you say (or imply, for that matter) that "I may consider changing my read on Pikapika later down the line?"

Here:

Is my logic wrong? He isn't proven to have a role that could kill a player that touches them, but he still outed it, and this game isn't bastard for nothing. I think giving him the benefit of the doubt and going along with it, at least for now, shouldn't be disastrous if he is lying. If he's Mafia telling the truth then he's playing well for brownie points, but that's where he still has to do his part if he's Town for us to not think so.

I'm not sure if you're playing dumb here...

which, as the player list shortens in number, becomes more and more likely.

Clearly the game is not with me on the Pikapika train, and that's fine, I'm not going to waste my time with it any longer. You win, HD.

And in that case, it would be more because of Rainbow Cloud's own judgement error in targetting Town in the first place rather than RNG. The odds of it happening aren't too low, and later down the line if we end up with way less Townies, it becomes more likely to hit Mafia.

Oh, but I already won when Pikochu was lynched instead .

The win would have mattered more if you actually unvoted in Day 2 because now the game state has changed with a wagon of 5 votes on Mafia. I don't feel like I wasted my time though, at least now, and if Pika's scum we ended up lynching scum anyway at least. He's not a top town read (that goes to Rainbow_Cloud) but definitely better than a lot of other players anyway.

 

[HumanDawn]

went from "mafia bait" to "warning"

He said it was to warn the Cop first and then said maybe it would have worked in still getting the Mafia to target him later down the line.

Tood's random survivor claim is definitely weird & seems a bit too plain (? for lack of a better word) but its not unlikely to think there isnt an indep in this game so it's w/e I guess

He could still be a dangerous Independent, but I think we're I wouldn't be too mad on a lynch on him as long as it's not the main focus of the day.

your quotes got screwed up & I'm too lazy to fix them rn, but I think I remember what I wanted to say: 1) there's no way to prove this but i did not "slip" with the DawningWinds thing. 2) at one point you said scum is the most afraid of getting lynched, but then later you said a player would want to survive to help win the game -- what is the difference then?

Anyway, what's the definition for someone sheeping?

1) Okay, why do you think you got confused and made the "slip" in the first place? After Day 1 ended, I spent a few posts focusing on the Vote Count, and I posted it multiple times, and DawningWinds was never shown to be voting Zorchic.

2) The difference is the context, but I can understand where the confusion would come from -

a) Jinjo admitted she was with-holding sharing a scum read on me because she was worried I would criticize it and get her lynched for it. If every Town decided to not share their scum reads because they were afraid of being lynched, then Town would not win, so it would make more sense for Mafia to not share their made-up scum reads in fear of being called out for them and getting lynched.

b) With Tood, it was to say that TheCapsFan's comment on Tood slipping on the "I should care about my scum reads more" could go either way, because Town not arguing against suspicion on them would hurt the Town with no reactions from the voters who have to justify backing themselves up after being given a counter-argument. It's similar to what happened with the voters on Zorchic - he didn't reply and he ended up getting mislynched, so if he cared more, his mislynch may not have happened.

I already replied to Luminary about what sheeping is - but basically it's when you vote agree with somebody vote on somebody without bringing in any new personal reason for doing it. Like, for example, somebody was cop checked Mafia and the cop claim votes them. You see it, and you vote the cop checked player and say nothing else. That would be sheeping. To not make it count as sheeping, you add on a personal reason like saying "Yeah, that makes complete sense for them to be Mafia, because they did scummy thing X & Y so I believe the Cop claim.". That should make you understand Pika_Pika42's vote on you more.

 

[Fatima Shadow Frost Witch]

I wonder if starting a bandwagon on Pika Pika42 is worth it?