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Controversial opinions

As much as I disliked Gary in the Kanto arc for being such a big fat smug jerk towards Ash, I do believe that he should have moved forward in the Indigo League.

Realistically, Ash should have been eliminated in the first round instead of Gary. This is because Gary worked hard to earn his badges whereas Ash got 4 badges out of pity (he fairly won against LT Surge, Koga, Blaine & Team Rocket tho).

It would have been a good moral for kids to work hard instead of relying on luck to beat your enemies. This would have made me root for Ash even more than I did in that arc (at least Diamond & Pearl did this correctly when Ash lost to Paul badly in their Lake Acuity battle).
 
As much as I disliked Gary in the Kanto arc for being such a big fat smug jerk towards Ash, I do believe that he should have moved forward in the Indigo League.

Realistically, Ash should have been eliminated in the first round instead of Gary. This is because Gary worked hard to earn his badges whereas Ash got 4 badges out of pity (he fairly won against LT Surge, Koga, Blaine & Team Rocket tho).

It would have been a good moral for kids to work hard instead of relying on luck to beat your enemies. This would have made me root for Ash even more than I did in that arc (at least Diamond & Pearl did this correctly when Ash lost to Paul badly in their Lake Acuity battle).

While it's true that Ash got to the Indigo League through a lot of pity badges and relying on Kingler for the first round was pretty cheap, it also would have been really anticlimactic for the Indigo League to be built up for nearly the entire Kanto arc only for Ash to lose right away. Getting to the Top 16 might have been realistically too high for Ash's skills at the time, but it was the best believable rank he could have gotten. I definitely don't think he should have made it into the semi-finals or won the whole thing.

We also don't really see much of Gary's skills. He always bragged about himself and he did have ten badges, but I don't know if that's enough to say that he worked hard to earn his badges, especially when we didn't really see much of his battles before fighting Giovanni. I do think it would have been interesting for Ash vs. Gary to happen in the Indigo League. I don't know if Ash could have won or if it would have felt satisfying for him to win, but their rivalry was a bigger deal in Kanto than it was in Johto, so not having a confrontation between them was kind of an odd choice at the time. At the very least, it might have been good to show more of Gary's battles during the League and especially the one where he lost since that would have given a better indication of his skills.
 
Getting to the Top 16 might have been realistically too high for Ash's skills at the time, but it was the best believable rank he could have gotten. I definitely don't think he should have made it into the semi-finals or won the whole thing.

I understand you. I do know that you don't like Misty's character too much, but you can't deny that she was correct when she told Ash that he was lucky to have made it as far as he did in the Indigo league. This is considering the fact that Ash didn't really prepare as much for the league and he also never got to find out why Charizard was being so disobedient towards him & repair their relationship before Ash just impulsively chose it to fight against Richie's Pokemon.. Now I'm not saying that Ash deserved to lose the league the way he did (it was humiliating), but his loss made perfect sense considering his skills at the time.

We also don't really see much of Gary's skills. He always bragged about himself and he did have ten badges, but I don't know if that's enough to say that he worked hard to earn his badges, especially when we didn't really see much of his battles before fighting Giovanni. I do think it would have been interesting for Ash vs. Gary to happen in the Indigo League. I don't know if Ash could have won or if it would have felt satisfying for him to win, but their rivalry was a bigger deal in Kanto than it was in Johto, so not having a confrontation between them was kind of an odd choice at the time. At the very least, it might have been good to show more of Gary's battles during the League and especially the one where he lost since that would have given a better indication of his skills.

As much as I liked the Kanto Arc, I think the Indigo League reeked of bad writing in a few parts. This is why I consider it the second worst league behind the Unova League. Maybe me claiming that Gary was a better trainer was too much of a stretch since we never even saw him win any battles on-screen (like you said). It also helps that the only time he was shown battling was when he lost badly to Giovanni. When it comes to Ash and Gary battling each other during the Indigo League, maybe the writers wanted to save their battle for the Johto league instead.
 
I understand you. I do know that you don't like Misty's character too much, but you can't deny that she was correct when she told Ash that he was lucky to have made it as far as he did in the Indigo league. This is considering the fact that Ash didn't really prepare as much for the league and he also never got to find out why Charizard was being so disobedient towards him & repair their relationship before Ash just impulsively chose it to fight against Richie's Pokemon.. Now I'm not saying that Ash deserved to lose the league the way he did (it was humiliating), but his loss made perfect sense considering his skills at the time.

Oh yeah, Misty was completely right. Putting how Ash got most of his badges aside for the moment, he spent the two months prior to the Indigo League barely training, didn't put in the effort to train Charizard and was too laid back about everything for his own good. Kingler winning the whole first match for Ash despite never been used in a battle before was just a complete deus ex machina win. Getting to the Top 16, let alone getting past the first round, was extremely lucky with Ash's skills and lack of preparation in mind. Even Professor Oak backed Misty up by saying that Ash could have gone further if he did more training and trained Charizard properly.

I'm pretty fine with how Ash lost the Indigo League to be honest. It was a humiliating way for him to lose, but Ash's lack of effort into getting Charizard to listen to him backfiring on him was pretty fitting. The battle itself was still bad, but I think it worked since Ash's own weaknesses as a trainer contributed to his defeat.

LovelyChika123 said:
As much as I liked the Kanto Arc, I think the Indigo League reeked of bad writing in a few parts. This is why I consider it the second worst league behind the Unova League. Maybe me claiming that Gary was a better trainer was too much of a stretch since we never even saw him win any battles on-screen (like you said). It also helps that the only time he was shown battling was when he lost badly to Giovanni. When it comes to Ash and Gary battling each other during the Indigo League, maybe the writers wanted to save their battle for the Johto league instead.

Yeah, the Indigo League definitely doesn't hold up that well, especially compared to most of the other Leagues. It's possible by the time the Indigo League started that they knew that they were going to continue with the Johto games and saved their confrontation for that League instead. The anime was originaly going to cover just the original games and if that is the case, then ending the series without Ash having a proper battle with Gary would have been a weird and bad choice, so I would assume that they at least had more plans for Gary by the time they made the decision for him to lose so early in the Indigo League.
 
On reflection, the Kanto League feels kinda like Pokemon's version of Minky Momo's death. There, Shudo was pissed that his show was being pulled due to not shifting enough toys, here Shudo was pissed that this little brat he had been forced to write for the sole purpose of shifting toys was so successful even though the character had (in his eyes) done nothing to deserve it so just completely washed the League out for him... :wynaut:
 
Yeah, the Indigo League definitely doesn't hold up that well, especially compared to most of the other Leagues. It's possible by the time the Indigo League started that they knew that they were going to continue with the Johto games and saved their confrontation for that League instead. The anime was originaly going to cover just the original games and if that is the case, then ending the series without Ash having a proper battle with Gary would have been a weird and bad choice, so I would assume that they at least had more plans for Gary by the time they made the decision for him to lose so early in the Indigo League.

They could have had Ash lose to Gary at the Indigo League and then get his rematch in Johto - though the battle wouldn't necessarily have been good; Kanto just wasn't too concerned with battles.

I think the success of the movies might have pushed the series in more of an action direction.
 
They could have had Ash lose to Gary at the Indigo League and then get his rematch in Johto - though the battle wouldn't necessarily have been good; Kanto just wasn't too concerned with battles.

I think the success of the movies might have pushed the series in more of an action direction.

That would have provided more weight and buildup for their Johto League rematch. I still kind of like Richie being the one to beat Ash. Their friendship felt genuine and it was the first time Ash had a major battle against someone he considered a friend, so I think that still provided an interesting kind of conflict for him, even if the battle itself was extremely short for all the buildup they had for it.
 
They could have had Ash lose to Gary at the Indigo League and then get his rematch in Johto - though the battle wouldn't necessarily have been good; Kanto just wasn't too concerned with battles.

I think the success of the movies might have pushed the series in more of an action direction.
I feel like that was the original plan. We all know that the show would run for a year and a half only, thus until the end of the Kanto saga. While it's most likely that Satoshi'd beat Shigeru, it could be the other way around too.

Anyway, yes, it felt forced how Satoshi kept saying "Shigeru is my greatest rival, I'm doing all I can to beat him" when their first battle ever was at the tail-end of the Orange League saga. Not mentioning I don't remember any more battles afterwards until the Jouto League.

That would have provided more weight and buildup for their Johto League rematch. I still kind of like Richie being the one to beat Ash. Their friendship felt genuine and it was the first time Ash had a major battle against someone he considered a friend, so I think that still provided an interesting kind of conflict for him, even if the battle itself was extremely short for all the buildup they had for it.

I don't quite agree. The friendship started an episode prior, so I don't see how it was a genuine one yet (though they did a good job building it up with little time). The conflict was, imo, kinda forced as well. It'd be better if Hiroshi were introduced in mid-Kanto and had more appearances, it'd become more believable for me.
 
I don't quite agree. The friendship started an episode prior, so I don't see how it was a genuine one yet (though they did a good job building it up with little time). The conflict was, imo, kinda forced as well. It'd be better if Hiroshi were introduced in mid-Kanto and had more appearances, it'd become more believable for me.

I can understand that. Having more time to establish Richie and his friendship with Ash certainly would have helped. Given that they did connect pretty well with each other in a short span of time, I thought that their friendship was genuine enough at least. It wasn't anything to write home about, but I think it worked well enough to make Ash's hesitation over battling a friend in a League match understandable, especially when it wasn't something he had to deal with before.
 
One last thing on the whole shipping bit, but yeah back in August I mentioned how I don't feel like negative stigma is necessary enough of a reason to avoid certain properties/fandoms cause you'd have to avoid a lot just to feel good about yourself.

And I'd argue the Pokémon anime on it's own falls into that territory. At least some shipping comments/fics/art can be family friendly. Stop laughing. :LOL:

But the anime'a occasional fanservice like that shot of Misty in Battle Aboard the St. Anne or say perry moments in Beauty and the Beach or A Chansey Operation (Proctor making a pass at underage girls and Misty having a perfectly fitting nurse's uniform whereas Ash and Brock have larger coats) is definitely without debate squicky.

Heck don't some detractors to anime/manga just assume it's all well official rule 34?

I'd honestly argue the Indigo League loss was the best defeat from a story perspective simply because it led to genuine character growth, while later ones were just there to keep Ash as the main character regardless of how dumb or unsatisfying it was.

Hoenn, Sinnoh and Kalos certainly (Unova too but that's a given ;)), though I'd say Johto was decent enough in that it didn't feel like a cheat or middle finger.
 
I'm not saying his dad wasn't, just that it irritates me that Brock didn't care to try anf make up for lost time or anything.

Not to be rude, but why should Brock care? Brock's dad was the one who disregarded his family's feelings and well-being when he made that decision to abandon them for a lame reason (him failing his dream to be a good trainer). It's the responsibility of the parent to mend whatever broken relationship that he/she has with his/her child.

Both of his parents were, which's jarring since the show never properly gave a good explanation for such an irresponsible attitude.

Both his parents suck. They had no business having 10 kids if they had no intention on taking care of them that much.
 
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Not to be rude, but why should Brock care? Brock's dad was the one who disregarded his family's feelings and well-being when he made that decision to abandon them for a lame reason (him failing his dream to be a good trainer). It's the responsibility of the parent to mend whatever broken relationship that he/she has with his/her child.



Both his parents suck. They had no business having 10 kids if they had no intention on taking care of them that much.
Well the parent can't work to mend the relationship if the child isn't there.
 
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