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Controversial opinions

I’m curious about this take, which I feel probably is a controversial opinion on this forum. IMO SM may even pip DP to be the most cohesively written series of them all. What makes you think otherwise?
Now, why did ya have to go and ask that? :p It's honestly really hard to articulate properly what my problem is with the writing in a way that makes sense, but I'll try. My problem is how certain things...flow, I suppose, is the right word. Mallow is probably the biggest example of this, the episode that established her character motivations very late into the series having no build up beforehand. Sophoclese is established as a shy character from the beginning, but while his instance of nervousness at the league was good continuity, it was also a sign that he didn't really grow throughout the series. Kiawe and Lana also have sparing growth as characters, remaining the same throughout the entire narrative. Sure, there's nothing neccesariy bad about this, when you consider the light hearted nature of Sun and Moon, but at the same time, the fact that there are overall plot points throughout is a sign that there should be some type of growth. Sun and Moon actually isn't a slice-of-life, as it does have a manner of plot and adventure. The problem lies within how they are established. I'm not saying the characters don't have any development, because that's just objectively wrong, but I'm saying that they don't have character development in the fact that they don't really grow as characters all that much.
 
Doesn’t help that SM’s characters don’t really have much to keep us invested in their goals.

Sophocles‘ inventions never really come into play and his astronaut goal is scarcely brought up.

Lana’s entire goal is exploring the ocean in a bubble... something I feel like ep 5 Popplio could have easily done (those bubbles managed to hold a bunch of Lapras in the air ffs).

Kiawe wants to become a Kahuna, yet his one direct step in that direction happened before the series started and he never showed any interest in completing the Island Challenge.

Mallow wanting to be a human/pokemon chef works, but it’s just kinda... alright? Her dead mother could have been an interesting source of inspiration and motivation to her career, but that huge loss in her life was never so much as alluded to until well over 100 episodes in so the impact fell flat to me.
 
Doesn’t help that SM’s characters don’t really have much to keep us invested in their goals.
It honestly really sucks because I do think that this cast has a ton of potential. More so than any other companion before, in fact. They were all fresh takes on cast members with interesting and unique goals and to see them never being developed was just kind of...sad, to be honest.
 
It honestly really sucks because I do think that this cast has a ton of potential. More so than any other companion before, in fact. They were all fresh takes on cast members with interesting and unique goals and to see them never being developed was just kind of...sad, to be honest.
Isn't all companions who isn't pokegirl never work through their goals in their series? Like Brock shown perfect breeder throughout OS-DP, Cilan goal was never explore, Clemont goal was a running gag of XY/Z series.

Alola cast has all grown and develop throughout SM series, they're completely different than what they're in the beginning.

That people can still talk about older seasons should be a sign that season made an impact on viewers. Regurgitated discourse is tiring but at the same time, at least we still talk about XY. Nobody talks about Johto or AG. Especially AG.

AG is nearly 20 years old I'm not ready to accept this



It became too built-up to ever be satisfying. A lot of people were literally only watching to see Ash win and I think such hyper-fixation actively hurt their enjoyment, because nothing really seemed good enough. The pay-off had to be orgasmic or else.

It's one of those things where parts of the fandom fell out of step with what the show was trying to do. I remember a lot of discussion about the ongoing journey of Ash from OS through to DP, and how there was steady progression towards some kind of end goal. The expectation became for each new season to be a progression on the previous season, until Best Wishes came along and made is perfectly clear the show was never meant to be watched that way. Ash's adventures are designed to be connected but also self-contained, so they can continue forever. Three guesses what the most detested season of the anime is.



It's about competence, or the perception of it.

A common reason for liking characters is how competent they are. For a long time, Red was considered the pinnacle of Pokemon characters because he was the Champion, the super boss of the beloved G/S/C games, with all the fully-evolved and cool Pokemon. By comparison, Ash was often incompetent, didn't evolve all his Pokemon, couldn't get the big wins and so on.

You'll notice that whenever Ash does something stupid (in or out of battle), there's always a strong negative reaction. Perceived incompetence can be a real turn off for some viewers.
Problem with Ash character is he is the protagonist of long running anime so he can't have those huge achievements in short time, look at movie 20 where Ash was far better trainer even without brock and misty compared to indigo series, he could've become world champion at the end of OS if writers want to.
 
Yes, but at the sacrifice of proper character development.
I don't know about that, if movie one with very short time can show Ash far better trainer without his companions than a 5 season series can do that on screen, look at May and Dawn, they become such powerful trainer and did better than Ash in GF compared to Ash's league placement because they're only there for one series.
 
I don't know about that, if movie one with very short time can show Ash far better trainer without his companions than a 5 season series can do that on screen, look at May and Dawn, they become such powerful trainer and did better than Ash in GF compared to Ash's league placement because they're only there for one series.
I don't think you understand what character development is. Movie 20 was an example of how NOT to do Ash. Exactly how did Ash grown and develop in that one movie? The answer: he didn't. He remained static and barely developed throughout.
 
Honestly, the reason why I’m so mad that he lost Kalos is that he won Alola. I know I need to move on but it still stings...

Sorry but this is a very...weird (for not saying another word) reasoning, because what happened in the Kalos League has absolute no correlation with what happened in the Alola League, at least in the anime itself.
 
Actually, adding on to my previous post, the more I think about it, the more I realize how essentially flawed Movie 20 was. Ash and Pikachu received almost no development. There was too much irrelevant information to include and it was overall just very messy. Team Rocket could have easily been cut. The Butterfree and Charizard storylines respectively could've been cut as they had barely any bearing on the main story-line, which I guess was going to find Ho-Oh(?). The focus was supposedly Ash and Pikachu's relationship-if the climax is anything to go by-but they essentially have no growth in their relationship whatsoever and still remain the same as they were in the beginning. They were already ridiculously close from the very instant Ash was ready to give up his life for Pikachu-what, now they're...closer, I guess??? The actual climax of the movie was never properly explained or previously established in any way, shape, or form. Even Cross could've easily been cut from the movie. They gave two side characters proper motivations but did nothing with it-sure, they didn't have enough time to, but genuinely, what were Verity and Sorrel doing there??? There's so much in this movie that feels so irrelevant and has no bearing on the main story, which isn't even all that well established either. I guess that's what happens when you make a movie for the sole purpose of nostalgia baiting-you get a messy story with messy plot-lines and barely established character roles with a static protagonist as a cherry on top.
 
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I don't think you understand what character development is. Movie 20 was an example of how NOT to do Ash. Exactly how did Ash grown and develop in that one movie? The answer: he didn't. He remained static and barely developed throughout.
Should we forget how May end up top 4 only to lose to the Tobias of GF and dawn runner up in her first GF? they both don't have rush development, what movie did in 4 Episodes time an entire season actually can do that with on screen development if writers want to but they want to run this anime for 20+ years so Ash growth are very slow while Ash companions was so close to reach their goal because they're staying only for one series
 
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Should we forget how May end up top 4 only to lose to the Tobias of GF and dawn runner up in her first GF? they both don't have rush development, what movie did in 4 Episodes time an entire season actually can do that with on screen development if writers want to but they want to run this anime for 20+ years so Ash growth are very slow while Ash companions was so close to reach their goal because they're staying only for one series
In the most polite way possible I think you’re confusing "character development" with "reaching your goal". Someone could reach their goal and still remain stagnant as a character.
 
In the most polite way possible I think you’re confusing "character development" with "reaching your goal". Someone could reach their goal and still remain stagnant as a character.
And I'm saying writers can develop his character and make him at least Champion of a region at the end of Johto saga if they want to, May and Dawn are two of the best developed pokegirls and has better placement than Ash even in their first try, does those two has no development?
If we look at DP series it seems writers was setting up Champions league after Ash won Sinnoh league, it was perfect time for Ash to win the league after beating Paul in finale, instead writers thrown away all the build up into dustbin, put Ash Vs Paul in quarter finals and made Ash lose to Tobias because they don't know what to do with him.
 
And I'm saying writers can develop his character and make him at least Champion of a region at the end of Johto saga if they want to, May and Dawn are two of the best developed pokegirls and has better placement than Ash even in their first try, does those two has no development
Like PkmnTrainerV already said, you're confusing "character development" with "achievement"...
 
I
Like PkmnTrainerV already said, you're confusing "character development" with "achievement"...
I'm asking does May and Dawn has very rushed or zero development that their achievements can't be comparable?


Writers spend 100+ Episodes to make Ash come out of his noob trainer phase and become competent, 3 johto seasons to best Gary, 4 AG series to make him more humble instead of overconfident and become strategic than another 4 season DP series to let him learn from others.


All of those things could've been handle in 5 seasons of OS series as each development just need one season, instead writers make it so slow, waste too many episodes on fillers, most of Brock and Misty focus Episodes didn't done anything to develop their characters.
 
Sun and Moon actually isn't a slice-of-life, as it does have a manner of plot and adventure. The problem lies within how they are established. I'm not saying the characters don't have any development, because that's just objectively wrong, but I'm saying that they don't have character development in the fact that they don't really grow as characters all that much.
I get what you mean now. I think the thing that makes SM fundamentally different from other series is that it more of a character-driven, than a story-driven series, and because of that very little stuff is actually achieved and the plot itself feels weaker because it’s not the driving force.

I actually liked this - it felt real. How much progress do any of us make on our goals in 1 year (for example), or how much do we tangibly change? What did change over time is their relationships with each other, their families, their Pokemon and these in turn made changes (some more profound, some more marginal) on their own characters.

I do agree that I wish we’d seen more from Mao, however, her stability actually felt genuine regardless of the life changing event of having lost her mother before the series began. From the beginning she was the lynchpin of the group and in the end she was the only person left behind and I could really understand and relate to that on a personal level. If anything, more melodrama might have taken away from that.
 
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