Which of Goh’s Starters got done the dirtiest writing wise?

[Konja7]

Also, the claim of Charmander not having a big role is blatantly false as @A Wild Luxray pointed out.

I remember Charmander's battles. However, I don't consider that a big role, since Charmander has almost no focus as a character in these.

The biggest focus on Charmander as a character happened in the episode Ash caught it.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

In Orange Islands, they reconcile because Charizard loses a fight agaisnt random trainer and Ash shows support in this situation.

I feel like you're missing the whole point of that arc here. The REAL reason why Ash lost the league because of Charizard's disobedience was because he didn't have the latter's respect. He can't exactly "train" Charizard without earning his respect first, now can he? Charizard himself also needed to grow, as he was acting incredibly lazy and clearly didn't see how much Ash needed him. It's a two-way street when it comes to pokemon battles: the trainer needs to trust and believe in their pokemon, and the pokemon needs to trust and believe in their trainer. Charizard realizing that Ash cared about him and obeying him afterward was him giving Ash a chance-notice how afterward we started to see Ash train more? That league loss also humbled Ash, despite his issues with Charizard still not being resolved. He pressed on trying to tame Charizard, by trying to earn Charizard's respect, not trying to train it. Pokemon battles, first and foremost, are all about the trust and respect between a pokemon and trainer.

The real issue was never that Ash couldn't "train" Charizard, but rather that he himself didn't have the complete respect of his pokemon. It's why Pikachu took so long to act like a best friend to him and also why Squirtle and Bulbasaur had such little faith in Ash in the beginning of the saga. There's clear development here on multiple levels, and I'd hardly say it's on the same level as Inteleon, or that they can even be compared on the same level.

 

[Unireon]

The Kanto starters were the best developed.
All three had good dynamics with each other and the rest of the team. Had episodes focusing on them that added details or delved on those that they already showed.

Starters treatment had been bumbling with Johto. Sometimes what they tried worked and other times, not so much.
Often one line ended up sidelined or eclipsed by the others.

But now, all three had been treated rather horribly. I don't know what it's their intent.
Seemingly messing with them by bringing something and wasting or dropping it afterwards.

 

[Kurolegacy]

I remember Charmander's battles. However, I don't consider that a big role, since Charmander has almost no focus as a character in these.

The biggest focus on Charmander as a character happened in the episode Ash caught it.

Charmander, prior to evolving, was one of Ash’s most used Pokémon who not only helped Ash in multiple Gym Battles but helped with captures. It even had moments of showing its bond with Ash, both believing in him when they were separated and even keeping him warm even when pushed to its limits. In a time when the series was finding its footing and wasn’t known for its storytelling or overarching stories, Charmander got plenty of love from the writers showing it off.

 

[Enzo]

Honestly, to this day it still baffles me that people still didn't understand, even over 20 years later (!), that Charizard evolving too fast and too early was a plot point. It was by design, not a case of inherently bad writting. Now, if you don't like it, that's fine and dainty. But it wasn't done without reasoning.

And frankly, trying to compare it to Goh's Inteleon, and even his Cinderace to a certain point, feels almost dishonest to me to a point. That was badly done and rushed simply because they didn't wanted to bother with development for Sobble in the first place but had to shove an evolution into the series somehow because Inteleon being popular was something TPCi didn't predict from the start.

 

[Blob]

Honestly, to this day it still baffles me that people still didn't understand, even over 20 years later (!), that Charizard evolving too fast and too early was a plot point. It was by design, not a case of inherently bad writting. Now, if you don't like it, that's fine and dainty. But it wasn't done without reasoning.

And frankly, trying to compare it to Goh's Inteleon, and even his Cinderace to a certain point, feels almost dishonest to me to a point. That was badly done and rushed simply because they didn't wanted to bother with development for Sobble in the first place but had to shove an evolution into the series somehow because Inteleon being popular was something TPCi didn't predict from the start.

What I don't get though, is why even rush starter development at all? If Inteleon is so beloved, drag out its middle form so that it's more rewarding when it DOES evolve. They shot themselves in the foot for making Drizzile's evolution about as intersting as a COTD's.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

What I don't get though, is why even rush starter development at all? If Inteleon is so beloved, drag out its middle form so that it's more rewarding when it DOES evolve. They shot themselves in the foot for making Drizzile's evolution about as intersting as a COTD's.

And honestly, Sobble should have had a bit more development at that stage also. Sobble probably should have had one battle and an episode dedicated to training. Drizzile should have had an episode where we saw him regain the motivation to work on evolving and saw a bit of training before evolving.

 

[Enzo]

What I don't get though, is why even rush starter development at all? If Inteleon is so beloved, drag out its middle form so that it's more rewarding when it DOES evolve. They shot themselves in the foot for making Drizzile's evolution about as intersting as a COTD's.

Exactly that. The thing is, I don't really think they wanted to do anything with Sobble to begin with tbh. It spent 26 (!!!!!!) eps without doing anything besides crying and disappearing. There's nothing to convice they had any sort of plans for it besides sitting on Goh's soulder and having that unfunny gag. Frankly? I have a theory that what's currently happening with Grookey (as in, being a shoulder mon with no arcs and just a ~cutesy~ gag) was supossed to be Sobble's intended fate before the fandom decided Inteleon is the new IT Girl.

Then, they realized they had to have an Inteleon on the main cast asap at all costs, and when they realized Goh's Sobble was already on the cast... bam. A super rushed evolution but a spy lizard being on the hands of a protagonist. I know that there's a lot of speculation and not a lot of facts here, but that's my analysis/theory about it

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

Frankly? I have a theory that what's currently happening with Grookey (as in, being a shoulder mon with no arcs and just a ~cutesy~ gag) was supossed to be Sobble's intended fate before the fandom decided Inteleon is the new IT Girl.

Problem with this theory is that they've already confirmed that Grookey will have an "Arc" eventually

I feels like that they're trying to focus on one starter at a time instead of all 3 at once (and it's not going so well)

Another theory I've seen going around was the reason that they skipped over Drizzile was because the writer's probably thought it'd just be Raboot all over again and didn't want to repeat themselves

 

[Kurolegacy]

What I don't get though, is why even rush starter development at all? If Inteleon is so beloved, drag out its middle form so that it's more rewarding when it DOES evolve. They shot themselves in the foot for making Drizzile's evolution about as intersting as a COTD's.

Honestly, I get the feeling that it comes down to the format that they chose for Journeys being incompatible with the Pokémon anime. What it seems they’re trying to do is basically turn it into one of those serialized kids anime akin to the likes of Doreamon or Yo-Kai Watch where there’s a minimum of changes in continuity that might make a noticeable change but wouldn’t qualify as an overarching story. One where you can just jump in anywhere and it not matter whether you actually watch the series or just random episodes because it exists just to be a series of bite sized tidbits to hold a kid’s attention for a half hour. Problem being, Pokémon was never built for such a thing as, even in its earliest days, the series followed a path, one that became more entwined with overarching story as different series went on. As a result, we’re seeing the noticeable dip in quality of story telling as they essentially try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

Honestly, I get the feeling that it comes down to the format that they chose for Journeys being incompatible with the Pokémon anime. What it seems they’re trying to do is basically turn it into one of those serialized kids anime akin to the likes of Doreamon or Yo-Kai Watch where there’s a minimum of changes in continuity that might make a noticeable change but wouldn’t qualify as an overarching story. One where you can just jump in anywhere and it not matter whether you actually watch the series or just random episodes because it exists just to be a series of bite sized tidbits to hold a kid’s attention for a half hour. Problem being, Pokémon was never built for such a thing as, even in its earliest days, the series followed a path, one that became more entwined with overarching story as different series went on. As a result, we’re seeing the noticeable dip in quality of story telling as they essentially try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I've heard it was because XY was failing in ratings in Japan so that's why they opted to take the series into a different direction in SunMoon and following in Journeys

And because they tried so hard to copy Yo-Kai Watch's format. The ratings are apparently even worse than before from what I've heard

 

[JinksChow]

I've heard it was because XY was failing in ratings in Japan so that's why they opted to take the series into a different direction in SunMoon and following in Journeys

And because they tried so hard to copy Yo-Kai Watch's format. The ratings are apparently even worse than before from what I've heard

Ok, I have to step in about this, because while XY did get lower ratings overall, it did not fail in ratings.

I've mentioned this in the general discussion thread, so I'll just quote myself here:

Objectively speaking, Pokemon XY wasn't even doing that bad in terms of ratings relative to other anime.

The worst-performing Pokemon season, discounting JN and SM (for reasons I'll get to in a bit), is actually Pokemon AG, which had a 41.3% appearance rate in the Weekly Top 10 anime ranking.

Using this metric, the best to worst performing Pokemon anime is as follows:
Pokemon DP - 92.8%
Pokemon SM (Pre-Timeslot Change) - 85.1%
Pokemon BW - 83.8%
Pokemon OS - 77.6%
Pokemon XY - 63.0%
Pokemon SM (Overall) - 57.3%
Pokemon AG - 41.3%

You might have noticed that I specifically separated Pokemon SM into 2 entries, this is to reinforce my previous point which has been disregarded by some users, which is that the timeslot change is without a doubt the worst thing to happen to the anime.

Pokemon SM had managed to capture an audience since Yokai Watch had just finished its comedic kid-oriented run, and is poised to become the best performing Pokemon anime.

But TVTokyo decides that the faltering Yokai Watch is more worth promoting, and moves Pokemon SM (and Boruto) to Sundays, clashing with Chibi-Maruko Chan and Sazae-san. What are these 2 anime, you ask? Oh, they weren't anything special, just the 2 most popular anime in Japan ever, dominating the anime scene in Japan since their respective airing in 1969 and 1995.

So here you have Pokemon SM going up against 2 anime which are family staples in Japan, oh I wonder which would Japanese families tune into? Oh please, Japanese families wouldn't change the channel for their youngest family members, no matter how much they want to watch Pokemon SM. (As an analogy, imagine that in the US they decided to air Pokemon SM at the same time as The Simpsons. Which do you think will win out?)

As expected, ratings for Pokemon SM plummeted. From Oct 2018 (SM091) onwards, Pokemon SM only appeared in the Weekly Top 10 for 8 out of remaining 56 episodes, so a 14.3% appearance rate. So well done TVTokyo, you managed to backstab the renaissance for the Pokemon anime, and all for what? So Yokai Watch can continue its slow decline into irrelevance on weekdays.

Of course, this isn't the end of the story. As we all know, TVTokyo, perhaps realising the absolute boneheadedness in their timeslot change decision, finally changed the timeslot for Pokemon JN in Oct 2020 (JN040). However, by this time the damage is done, at 40 episodes in, they have already missed the boat in capturing a new audience for the new generation of Pokemon anime. As of JN078, Pokemon JN has only managed to appear in the Weekly Top 10 anime rankings a total of 2 times, or a 2.6% appearance rate.

...ok, rant over

In all actualilty, I would only consider 1.5 (yes, 1.5) series to have outright failed in ratings.

The half a series which has failed would be SM post timeslot change, since that tanked ratings (which basically means losing their audience) with absolutely no benefits.

The one series that has failed as a whole is JN, which has managed to rank one more time in the Weekly Top 10 since my last update, bringing its appearance rate up to 3.7%.

Also, the Yokai Watch fad is over in Japan, probably thanks to the overwhelming amount of anime reboots and franchise mismanagement from Level 5.

 

[PaperSplash]

Ok, I have to step in about this, because while XY did get lower ratings overall, it did not fail in ratings.

I've mentioned this in the general discussion thread, so I'll just quote myself here:


In all actualilty, I would only consider 1.5 (yes, 1.5) series to have outright failed in ratings.

The half a series which has failed would be SM post timeslot change, since that tanked ratings (which basically means losing their audience) with absolutely no benefits.

The one series that has failed as a whole is JN, which has managed to rank one more time in the Weekly Top 10 since my last update, bringing its appearance rate up to 3.7%.

Also, the Yokai Watch fad is over in Japan, probably thanks to the overwhelming amount of anime reboots and franchise mismanagement from Level 5.

Yeah, I think you could make many valid arguments as to why the series changed direction with SM and then again with JN, but "low ratings" and "copying Yo-Kai Watch" feel like huge oversimplifications at best.

 

[Unireon]

Level-5 is the worst when it comes to manage the adaptations of their franchises.
They killed off Danball Senki, Inazuma Eleven and Youkai Watch by letting the founder get too involved with them.

At least the timeslot move didn't force Anipoke to go against Doraemon, it'd have got beaten. The latter has taken an interest on trying to change the outcomes of several episodes, particularly those that used to end bad for Nobita....

Sorry for rambling, I got carried away....

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

I've heard it was because XY was failing in ratings in Japan so that's why they opted to take the series into a different direction in SunMoon and following in Journeys

And because they tried so hard to copy Yo-Kai Watch's format. The ratings are apparently even worse than before from what I've heard

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. And yet Pokemon said: we gotta make Ash look and act not like himself and completely do a 180.
I hate Pokémon for doing that.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

This is beginning to stress me out, but can someone provide genuine solid evidence that the anime was trying to emulate Yokai Watch? This just feels like baseless fan speculation out of hatred for the artstyle and tone shift and not like something that was ever actually confirmed. It just feels like something that's been repeated so often that people have confused it for fact, when there isn't anything official saying so in the first place.

 

[RafaSceptile]

This is beginning to stress me out, but can someone provide genuine solid evidence that the anime was trying to emulate Yokai Watch? This just feels like baseless fan speculation out of hatred for the artstyle and tone shift and not like something that was ever actually confirmed. It just feels like something that's been repeated so often that people have confused it for fact, when there isn't anything official saying so in the first place.

Just people trying to justify they hate for the sudden transition between XY and SM, and nothing else. The only two realities is that talking about ratings is pointless because over the years Internet was and still is winning the race against TV and, in relation with the topic of this thread:

They were dirty, but saying that all of them were equally dirty is false. Cinderace and Inteleon did something at least, Grookey did absolute nothing (yet).

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

The main reason that people speculate that SuMo was trying to emulate Yokai Watch was a few similarities that both series had. People first of all took a look at how Pokemon shifted to a much more slice-of-life comedic direction, similarly to Yokai Watch, compared to the more action heavy shonen-esque nature XY had. Secondly, people compared how they had a similar setting, with the school being a big one, as well as the surrounding town. Rather than travelling around, Ash stuck primarily to one location. People also compared the humor a lot more with the greater emphasis on slapstick. And then a lot of people drew comparisons between Rotom-Dex and Yokai Watch's Whisper.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Plus added to that, a major object in both series at that time is a special watch that relies on inserts as well as some of the more cartoonish looks for some of the monsters.

 

[JinksChow]

The main reason that people speculate that SuMo was trying to emulate Yokai Watch was a few similarities that both series had. People first of all took a look at how Pokemon shifted to a much more slice-of-life comedic direction, similarly to Yokai Watch, compared to the more action heavy shonen-esque nature XY had. Secondly, people compared how they had a similar setting, with the school being a big one, as well as the surrounding town. Rather than travelling around, Ash stuck primarily to one location. People also compared the humor a lot more with the greater emphasis on slapstick. And then a lot of people drew comparisons between Rotom-Dex and Yokai Watch's Whisper.

Another thing is that SM's first ED (Pose) had a clearly choreographed dance sequence, which was similar to Yokai Watch's first ED (Yo-kai Exercise No.1), which was a phenomenon in Japan for a number of years. (In fact, every time the Yokai Watch anime reboots, they do another iteration of Yo-kai Exercise No.1; it's pretty much the Mezase Pokemon Master of Yokai Watch, except Yokai Watch milked the song so much that it's dead now)

Before Pose, the last time the Pokemon anime had a choreographed dance sequence in its ED was BW ED4 (Look Look☆Here). I know XY ED4 (Roaring All-Stars) also heavily features dancing, but the dance sequence there is not as clear. While for Pose, I recall that the official YouTube channel at the time had a Music Video which showed the singer dancing to the whole song.

Anyways, back on the topic at hand, I feel that Inteleon was treated the worst by the writers. At least Cinderace had the spotlight to itself while Grookey had plenty of appearances as well as a promise from the writers to have a development arc, Inteleon really suffered from middle child syndrome.