So is Journeys the Worst Series Ever?

[J Bouken]

I also find it ironic, the moment he left was when ash developed a character disorder. He acted one way in unova, another in Kalos, another in alola and again, another in journeys. His character hasn't been consistent since sinnoh.

This is a myth, because inconsistencies with Ash's character started well before the end of DP.

At the start of DP, Ash gets into a petty argument with Dawn because she couldn't catch Buneary, then into another argument about whether battles are better than contests. Ash, who was supposed to be the mature one, having grown up quite a bit since the start of his journey, doesn't even apologise first for the argument. This same mature character also picked a fight with Paul within moments of meeting him. Brock, who was the mediator between Ash and Misty, sat around and did nothing, because apparently he couldn't be bothered anymore.

By comparison, at the start of AG, Ash didn't blow up at May for not catching her first Pokemon, showed a surprising amount of patience with her inexperience, and barely had a bad word to say about contests. So DP represents an actual regression in his character writing that is never mentioned, but to this day I still see Ash's battle with Elesa in BW come up as evidence he was a moron throughout the entirety of that season just because it's more egregious. And to make things funnier, Ash trying to use dance moves in his battle with Korrina in XY is never mentioned as an example of inconsistent characterisation or used as criticism despite it being similar to what he did vs Elesa.

It's pure cherry picking that doesn't actually hold up to any scrutiny. Ash is too goofy/dumb/childish/incompetent in BW and SM, but let's conveniently ignore the fact he stood in front of an audience in a Tarzan-inspired outfit during a fashion show in DP and couldn't mount a Ryhorn properly in XY.

I do admire the attempt to freshen up the series, but I wish OLM would realise the series didn't need freshening up. People don't watch Pokemon for anything other than it being Pokemon. There's a reason why the anime has had sustained success. It's because they kept the formula true and the moment they moved away from it, was when the anime begun to decline in popularity and quality

Citation needed.

Also, what does "being Pokemon" mean?

If it's the old formula, people were sick of that by the end of AG over a decade ago. DP wasn't even that highly regarded at the time because it had long stretches of episodes with dull one-off characters, and the whole formula was a hot topic when Dawn lost the GF finals and Ash lost to Tobias.

If it's watching the actual creatures in various fun and engaging one-off stories, with the odd arc and decent battle here and there, then Pokemon still has all that. Maybe it's not to people's specific tastes, but all those things are present to this day.

 

[Soniman]

Yeah I definitely don't see Pokémon as being so rigid as to fit one exact formula every single time until the end of time, they definitely should be allowed to experiment. I also can't imagine how one could even look at things like COTD fillers with any sort of fondness past OS/OI, I definitely got sick of it come Johto heck part of what makes SM so appealing was because that garbage was largely done away with in favor of a more recurring ensemble cast that grew and changed and provided a sense of welcome familiarity.

 

[Hidden Mew]

This is a myth, because inconsistencies with Ash's character started well before the end of DP.

At the start of DP, Ash gets into a petty argument with Dawn because she couldn't catch Buneary, then into another argument about whether battles are better than contests. Ash, who was supposed to be the mature one, having grown up quite a bit since the start of his journey, doesn't even apologise first for the argument. This same mature character also picked a fight with Paul within moments of meeting him. Brock, who was the mediator between Ash and Misty, sat around and did nothing, because apparently he couldn't be bothered anymore.

By comparison, at the start of AG, Ash didn't blow up at May for not catching her first Pokemon, showed a surprising amount of patience with her inexperience, and barely had a bad word to say about contests. So DP represents an actual regression in his character writing that is never mentioned, but to this day I still see Ash's battle with Elesa in BW come up as evidence he was a moron throughout the entirety of that season just because it's more egregious. And to make things funnier, Ash trying to use dance moves in his battle with Korrina in XY is never mentioned as an example of inconsistent characterisation or used as criticism despite it being similar to what he did vs Elesa.

I'm not sure if using dance moves in his battle against Korrina was an example of inconsistent characterization, but I don't think it's quite on the level of what happened with Elesa. Trying to mimic another trainer's battle style isn't as bad as bringing only one Pokemon with him to a Gym battle. That being said, I've complained about the Korrina battle before as well. I don't know if it's a common opinion like with the Elsa battle, but it definitely made the battle the weakest Gym match in XY. After all of the buildup of Ash's new dancing strategy, even devoting the episode beforehand to get Ash to dance to make it more effective, they just dropped it and went with his usual battle style. Unlike the Elsa battle, I don't think it made Ash look like a worse trainer. If anything, I just thought it was some bad writing when this attempt to learn dancing battle style went absolutely nowhere and felt like a huge waste of time. It's still bad and made the Gym match with Korrnia much worse in my opinion, but I don't think it's on the same level as what happened in the Elsa match.

It's pure cherry picking that doesn't actually hold up to any scrutiny. Ash is too goofy/dumb/childish/incompetent in BW and SM, but let's conveniently ignore the fact he stood in front of an audience in a Tarzan-inspired outfit during a fashion show in DP and couldn't mount a Ryhorn properly in XY.

I don't really see how not being able to mount a Rhyhorn properly in XY would make him look too incompetent or dumb, but I still agree that some of these examples don't really work. XY Ash wasn't serious all the time, just like SM Ash wasn't completely goofy all the time either. Even though I still think that the Elsa battle doesn't make Ash look particularly good, I'd still say Ash was better in BW than people tend to give him credit for.

If it's the old formula, people were sick of that by the end of AG over a decade ago. DP wasn't even that highly regarded at the time because it had long stretches of episodes with dull one-off characters, and the whole formula was a hot topic when Dawn lost the GF finals and Ash lost to Tobias.

If it's watching the actual creatures in various fun and engaging one-off stories, with the odd arc and decent battle here and there, then Pokemon still has all that. Maybe it's not to people's specific tastes, but all those things are present to this day.

People were complaining a lot about Ash seemingly not being allowed to win a League, especially when Tobias happened. It was a pretty infamous decision back then as well. There has been backlash to varying degrees for pretty much every series. It didn't just start with SM, Journeys or even BW.

 

[Daren]

DP wasn't even that highly regarded at the time because it had long stretches of episodes with dull one-off characters, and the whole formula was a hot topic when Dawn lost the GF finals and Ash lost to Tobias.

During DPs run I swore I remembered it being criticized pretty often for numerous reasons, and I personally felt that Ash had gotten "nerfed" really badly since AG ended (I was not remotely surprised when that chart showing he had his worst W/L ratio in Sinnoh appeared years back).

I ducked out of the Pokémon fandom in general early in gen 5 and didn't really return to the anime portion until partway through XY and noticed DP was being treated like the series highpoint, and couldn't figure out if my own distaste for that series was clouding my memory or not.
(Funny trivia; good odds I would not be posting much here nowadays if I hadn't been watching a bunch of Fred Astaire movies around mid-XY ).
So I'm actually glad at least one other person remembers it this way and it's not just me having memory problems (something I do worry about these days).

Actually this sort of links into the discussion about BW Ash: I suspect if Ash had top 8ed again in DP that version would not be seen nearly as favourably and the idea he saw some huge improvement in that saga wouldn't have become so engrained, even if everything else was the exact same except there wasn't that one off-screen win Snorlax participated in.

 

[Johtoo]

This is a myth, because inconsistencies with Ash's character started well before the end of DP.

At the start of DP, Ash gets into a petty argument with Dawn because she couldn't catch Buneary, then into another argument about whether battles are better than contests. Ash, who was supposed to be the mature one, having grown up quite a bit since the start of his journey, doesn't even apologise first for the argument. This same mature character also picked a fight with Paul within moments of meeting him. Brock, who was the mediator between Ash and Misty, sat around and did nothing, because apparently he couldn't be bothered anymore.

By comparison, at the start of AG, Ash didn't blow up at May for not catching her first Pokemon, showed a surprising amount of patience with her inexperience, and barely had a bad word to say about contests. So DP represents an actual regression in his character writing that is never mentioned, but to this day I still see Ash's battle with Elesa in BW come up as evidence he was a moron throughout the entirety of that season just because it's more egregious. And to make things funnier, Ash trying to use dance moves in his battle with Korrina in XY is never mentioned as an example of inconsistent characterisation or used as criticism despite it being similar to what he did vs Elesa.

It's pure cherry picking that doesn't actually hold up to any scrutiny. Ash is too goofy/dumb/childish/incompetent in BW and SM, but let's conveniently ignore the fact he stood in front of an audience in a Tarzan-inspired outfit during a fashion show in DP and couldn't mount a Ryhorn properly in XY.



Citation needed.

Also, what does "being Pokemon" mean?

If it's the old formula, people were sick of that by the end of AG over a decade ago. DP wasn't even that highly regarded at the time because it had long stretches of episodes with dull one-off characters, and the whole formula was a hot topic when Dawn lost the GF finals and Ash lost to Tobias.

If it's watching the actual creatures in various fun and engaging one-off stories, with the odd arc and decent battle here and there, then Pokemon still has all that. Maybe it's not to people's specific tastes, but all those things are present to this day.

Sorry, but I was regularly posting on Serebii during diamond and pearl and your comments are quite removed from the truth. You were right, they were sick of aspects of it, but not the series in itself. The general consensus during Diamond and Pearl had been more positive than any series since. Of course Ash losing Tobias riled up the fanbase, and Infernape taking a huge amount of the spotlight wasn't all that favorable, but Diamond and Pearl was seen as the next step up from the Advanced Series (which it was). And when i say Pokemon, I mean going on a journey, doing gym challengers, etc. You might question what Pokemon is, but you have to understand that the Pokemon games follow a linear journey of a trainer getting their first Pokemon, going out on a journey, competiting in gym challengers, then facing a league/elite 4 by the end of it. As far as my knowledge goes: you can't do anything in Pokemon Journeys that you can do in the games, besides catching Pokemon. Also, the anime was created under this identity of gym challengers and being on a journey, so you can't simply suggest (oh, but Ash is having full and having enganging one off stories) because that was never what the Pokemon anime was about to begin with - neither were the games. What i'm asking is for the anime to return to the traditional formula of the games and to the traditional formula of the anime. And that is what Pokemon is, because it was created that way. But those are my thoughts, and many agree with it, and many likely dont. Some (including yourself) might like the experimentation going on here, but there's a lot of us that are waiting for the anime to return to its roots.

 

[Johtoo]

During DPs run I swore I remembered it being criticized pretty often for numerous reasons, and I personally felt that Ash had gotten "nerfed" really badly since AG ended (I was not remotely surprised when that chart showing he had his worst W/L ratio in Sinnoh appeared years back).

I ducked out of the Pokémon fandom in general early in gen 5 and didn't really return to the anime portion until partway through XY and noticed DP was being treated like the series highpoint, and couldn't figure out if my own distaste for that series was clouding my memory or not.
(Funny trivia; good odds I would not be posting much here nowadays if I hadn't been watching a bunch of Fred Astaire movies around mid-XY ).
So I'm actually glad at least one other person remembers it this way and it's not just me having memory problems (something I do worry about these days).

Actually this sort of links into the discussion about BW Ash: I suspect if Ash had top 8ed again in DP that version would not be seen nearly as favourably and the idea he saw some huge improvement in that saga wouldn't have become so engrained, even if everything else was the exact same except there wasn't that one off-screen win Snorlax participated in.

While Sinnoh had its high points, I remember Pokemon forums erupting into flames when they managed to place a filler episode during the sinnoh league, lol. Good times, haha.

 

[Johtoo]

People were complaining a lot about Ash seemingly not being allowed to win a League, especially when Tobias happened. It was a pretty infamous decision back then as well. There has been backlash to varying degrees for pretty much every series. It didn't just start with SM, Journeys or even BW.

I may have been one of the few people that liked Ash losing Tobias. We all knew back then that Ash wasn't going to win the league. Especially after his disappointing Finish in Hoenn. While Tobias may have felt like a cop out character, his character was there to show that Ash was by far and away the best trainer at the league. The only way he could be stopped was to face an unstoppable trainer. That reason alone is why I think Sinnoh had the best league, because it was obvious Ash was the best trainer there. The same couldn't have been said about the other leagues (i'm not including Alola, because they felt more like a Don George tournament from Unova, lol)

 

[Daren]

That reason alone is why I think Sinnoh had the best league, because it was obvious Ash was the best trainer there.

That made it worse for me, to be honest. When it's that obvious they're conspiring to keep his story from advancing I found myself wondering why I'd care about his story if the show itself didn't.

Remember that he barely lost to the winner in Hoenn while handicapping himself with a fresh start; it's actually not hard to argue he was the best trainer there and would have won with his reserves.
While in DP he was going all out and got utterly humiliated.

Edit: In any case, I agree it's still too early for call Journey's final quality vs other series. If the claims that 2022 will be DLC for Legends there may be quite a few episodes yet.

 

[J Bouken]

Also, the anime was created under this identity of gym challengers and being on a journey, so you can't simply suggest (oh, but Ash is having full and having enganging one off stories) because that was never what the Pokemon anime was about to begin with - neither were the games

OS Kanto was 80 episodes, of which the majority had nothing to do with gym battles or catching/training Pokemon.

Look at any given season of Pokemon and you'll find the same thing.

Those one-off, episodic style stories comprise the majority of the show. They're the bread and butter of the Pokemon anime, and remain so to this day.

The games are inconcequential here. The anime has never been a faithful adaptation, something apparent from the very first episode. Those "roots" you're waiting for a return to never existed.

 

[isrrael120]

well I have seen anime since I was 7 years old so if the old formula brings me nostalgia although I am open to new ideas (good or bad from what it seems XD), I do not see why not accept a change!

 

[Hidden Mew]

I may have been one of the few people that liked Ash losing Tobias. We all knew back then that Ash wasn't going to win the league. Especially after his disappointing Finish in Hoenn. While Tobias may have felt like a cop out character, his character was there to show that Ash was by far and away the best trainer at the league. The only way he could be stopped was to face an unstoppable trainer. That reason alone is why I think Sinnoh had the best league, because it was obvious Ash was the best trainer there. The same couldn't have been said about the other leagues (i'm not including Alola, because they felt more like a Don George tournament from Unova, lol)

There was actually quite a bit of speculation about if Ash was going to win the Sinnoh League back then. This was mainly due to how important Ash's rivalry with Paul was. It was a major storyline throughout DP. The idea that Ash would defeat Paul with Infernape in the Sinnoh League finals sounded quite plausible with all of that buildup in mind. People also pointed out that showcasing all of the Sinnoh Elite 4 and establishing a Champion League were hints of Ash winning, but you could also easily argue that they just wanted to feature video game characters while they were still relevant. I don't remember how common this speculation was admittedly, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to say that we all knew back then that Ash wasn't going to win. I think it was clear by the time they revealed that Ash vs. Paul was going to be in the Top 8 instead of the final round, but prior to that, I think people were still speculating on it.

Personally speaking, I never had a problem with Ash losing to Tobias. I can understand why people still didn't like it, but I saw it as Ash going down in a blaze of glory instead of forcing a roadblock to prevent him from winning. If Ash had to lose after his terrific battle against Paul, having him battle against Legendary Pokemon is cooler than just losing to a regular trainer. It might have helped if Ash had a better team to use against Tobias or if they had been able to make it a two parter just so that Ash's team didn't go down so fast and hard, but all things considered, I was still okay with how Ash lost the Sinnoh League.

In regards to DP itself, I do remember it being pretty well received throughout most of its run, but it definitely wasn't without its fair share of criticisms. I remember people hating Piplup immensely and saying that Brock was more tacked on into the group, Dawn wasn't as universally praised as I think she is now. People were definitely complaining about Ash's Torterra losing all the time and Infernape getting more attention back then as well. I'm sure that people complained about the pacing too, although I don't remember that as clearly. While not as infamous as the Tobias defeat, there were people who didn't like Dawn losing to Zoey either. Tobias is the biggest example since he was pretty divisive back then at best and people still complain about him to this day well over a decade later. I do think that DP has been put more on a pedestal over time, which I can understand given how good I think the series is. Some of those complaints I disagree with as well, such how I think Brock works well for the DP cast. While DP was still pretty well received at least from what I remember, people still had their issues with it during and after its run.

 

[RafaSceptile]

I think Brock works well for the DP cast.

He definitely worked better in the cast than during Johto or AG, that's for sure

 

[Kurolegacy]

This is a myth, because inconsistencies with Ash's character started well before the end of DP.

At the start of DP, Ash gets into a petty argument with Dawn because she couldn't catch Buneary, then into another argument about whether battles are better than contests. Ash, who was supposed to be the mature one, having grown up quite a bit since the start of his journey, doesn't even apologise first for the argument. This same mature character also picked a fight with Paul within moments of meeting him. Brock, who was the mediator between Ash and Misty, sat around and did nothing, because apparently he couldn't be bothered anymore.

By comparison, at the start of AG, Ash didn't blow up at May for not catching her first Pokemon, showed a surprising amount of patience with her inexperience, and barely had a bad word to say about contests. So DP represents an actual regression in his character writing that is never mentioned, but to this day I still see Ash's battle with Elesa in BW come up as evidence he was a moron throughout the entirety of that season just because it's more egregious. And to make things funnier, Ash trying to use dance moves in his battle with Korrina in XY is never mentioned as an example of inconsistent characterisation or used as criticism despite it being similar to what he did vs Elesa.

It's pure cherry picking that doesn't actually hold up to any scrutiny. Ash is too goofy/dumb/childish/incompetent in BW and SM, but let's conveniently ignore the fact he stood in front of an audience in a Tarzan-inspired outfit during a fashion show in DP and couldn't mount a Ryhorn properly in XY.

No offense but while you accuse them of cherry picking, that’s pretty much exactly what you did here. Sure there were small moments of Ash being inconsistent but that’s a long way off of how Ash was presented overall. Up until DP, you could see a consistency in Ash’s character growth through his journey but after that, it feels inconsistent between series, basically changing in order to fit whatever tone the current series has. It ended up being part of why people started questioning if BW really was taking place in the same continuity as DP until Dawn showed up.

 

[J Bouken]

No offense but while you accuse them of cherry picking, that’s pretty much exactly what you did here.

It's not. I'm giving an example to refute a claim all of Ash's character inconsistencies occurred after DP and to highlight a double standard. I've not then used that example as a reason to criticise DP. When I say cherry picking, I'm talking about the old argument of "Ash was too stupid in X, that's why X sucked" while similar instances in the more well-received seasons are forgotten about.

Up until DP, you could see a consistency in Ash’s character growth through his journey but after that, it feels inconsistent between series, basically changing in order to fit whatever tone the current series has. It ended up being part of why people started questioning if BW really was taking place in the same continuity as DP until Dawn showed up.

To an extent, but if you go through AG and DP you'll still find inconsistencies within that growth. Look beyond his league placings and you'll find things like him forgetting he couldn't use Normal-type attacks on Agatha's Gengar, or attempting to catch Treeko without battling, or inexplicably getting a big head for being on a win streak despite already having his ego punctured in OS. It's not something that started once DP ended.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Sure there were small moments of Ash being inconsistent but that’s a long way off of how Ash was presented overall.

I feel like it shouldn't matter "how much" or "how little" Ash was inconstant in terms of characterization because either way it's still inconsistent. I swear to god, when I saw Ash in XY have to be reminded by Serena that he needed to focus on the league instead of wasting his time fighting this one-off trainer, I couldn't take anyone who said XY Ash was mature seriously after that. This is near the end of the series, the culmination of all his growth, and his gym battle with Ramos literally emphasized how he needed to focus on what was important but of course that was thrown out the window for...what, exactly? I didn't really care that Ash was later forced into a battle with that guy, nor did I care that he agreed with Serena he needed to focus-because by this point he shouldn't have needed to been reminded in the first place. That was kind of the entire point of the Ramos gym battle and the Snowbelle arc, which that one scene kind of ruined entirely.

So, yeah, even if it is just small moments, it's still inconsistent. Journeys makes it particular egregious because he's not focused on as much, nor is his character given proper depth anymore, but it has happened in past series before. If people are allowed to complain about something as small as Goh catching one single pokemon for twenty seconds in an episode dedicated to the PWC, then I don't see why people can't do some cherry-picking for something as important as consistency in characterization.

 

[Sai]

Thanks for saying this, Johto was the absolute worst with all the repetitive filler-fest.

I would add also the Hoenn arc of AG from Ash's perspective as a worse series than Journeys too.

The Hoenn saga probably wouldn’t be remembered for half of what it was if it wasn’t for the inclusion of May and the Contests.

From Ash’s side it’s just a slightly more competent Ash than we had in Johto but nothing of real importance happens. Sure Ash has a decent team (for the time) but there’s still really nothing but stretches of filler between each Gym battle. Max and Brock add so little outside of a few eps here and there they’re basically just background commentary. The Magma/Aqua arc is of course also agreed to be the worst handled villain arc in the anime.

Honestly I think it’s AG’s placement in the series that makes it more fondly remembered than it would have been; since it was the first series with all the changes and Ash having more of a unique team and coming after Johto. If the same Hoenn saga came out after DP or even BW for example but was written the same way, people wouldn’t have cared about it much.

 

[J Bouken]

Honestly I think it’s AG’s placement in the series that makes it more fondly remembered than it would have been; since it was the first series with all the changes and Ash having more of a unique team and coming after Johto. If the same Hoenn saga came out after DP or even BW for example but was written the same way, people wouldn’t have cared about it much.

I think it's the other way around. AG is forgotten because it was immediately followed by DP, which to be frank was a superior version of the same story. It somehow became the most inoffensive season of the show nobody really talks about anymore.

 

[Alola]

It somehow became the most inoffensive season of the show nobody really talks about anymore.

Yeah, I don't see too many complaints about it or a centralizing complaint. However, I think Max was annoying and Ash was pretty selfish/jerkish regarding his Gym Battles; do you know how many episodes started off with the gang wanting to do something and him basically saying "No! My Gym Battle first! Deal with it!"

 

[Sai]

Personally the only really bad part of it for me is the climax of the Magma/Aqua story, but they at least re-did it correctly in the third Mega evolution special a decade later so it was redeemed sans the villain teams themselves.

Besides that there’s not much to really complain about, besides the usual filler that every saga has.

 

[Unireon]

I actually took that as him behaving according to his personal code, like in never declining a challenge.

He has acted like that before.