Controversial opinions

[nickdt]

That would be believable if not for the fact that Man in Lizard Suit wasn't also fucked in the screentime department

Also Primarina being more popular than Incineroar in Japan didn't stop Incineroar from having an Arc in the Anime

True, but the gap between Incineroar and Primarina wasn't as massive as the gap between Inteleon and Cinderace (Cinderace wasn't even in the top 10), while Primara was fifh (If i recall correctly) and Incineroar was ninth) and there was the whole Masked Royal thing as well... and then Incineroar fits better than Primarina and Decidueye for him. And i think that the rushed Popplio evolution was because of Primarina's popularity (And imo, Inteleon's evolution was rushed more than Cinderace's, and i think we can contribute that to popularity as well).

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

True, but the gap between Incineroar and Primarina wasn't as massive as the gap between Inteleon and Cinderace (Cinderace wasn't even in the top 10), while Primara was fifh (If i recall correctly) and Incineroar was ninth)

Actually Primarina was in 3rd while Incineroar wasn't in the Top 10 either when the SuMo series was still going on

That's a pretty damn big gap between them.
Hell Incineroar was at the exact same place Cinderace was

If anything Inteleon and Cinderace pretty much are the Primarina and Incineroar of Gen 8.

The Final Stage Water Starters are in the Top 3 but don't get as much attention while both the Final Stage Fire Starters were at 12th but TPC really wants to push those two hard

Only real difference here is that the First Stage Grass Starter Grookey is nowhere EVEN CLOSE to Rowlet's level of popularity lmao


But as I said before, if Popularity had anything to do with it, Inteleon wouldn't be in offscreen land

Hell just look at Lucario ffs

and there was the whole Masked Royal thing as well... and then Incineroar fits better than Primarina and Decidueye for him. And i think that the rushed Popplio evolution was because of Primarina's popularity (And imo, Inteleon's evolution was rushed more than Cinderace's, and i think we can contribute that to popularity as well).

Another thing I think about Primarina and Incineroar is that they both belong to different trainers (Lana and Ash/Kukui)

So they couldn't really overshadow each other


Inteleon and Cinderace both being under Goh means that they'll have to be forced to share screentime or neither of them get any at all.

This is all the more reason why giving Goh all 3 Galar Starters was a mistake

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

This is radical but the anime should be canceled.
I want Ash gone.

 

[Alola]

If Ash wasn't a thing, I would have liked each saga/region to feature its player characters with distinct personalities from their successors and predecessors; we could even change skin tones and hair or eye colors to better promote individualization. Basically, Pokémon Adventures animated but less intense. Seeing Sapphire/May compete for Gym Battles while Ruby/Brendan did Contests would have been fun to watch. And every finale there could be some kind of annual meet & greet where one region's main characters interact with the previous, such as Red battling Gold etc. So many good character designs gone to waste.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

If Ash wasn't a thing, I would have liked each saga/region to feature its player characters with distinct personalities from their successors and predecessors; we could even change skin tones and hair or eye colors to better promote individualization. Basically, Pokémon Adventures animated but less intense. Seeing Sapphire/May compete for Gym Battles while Ruby/Brendan did Contests would have been fun to watch. And every finale there could be some kind of annual meet & greet where one region's main characters interact with the previous, such as Red battling Gold etc. So many good character designs gone to waste.

From what I've heard, They were originally going to do just that in Gen 2

Apparently Legendary God of Thunder special was literally supposed to be a backdoor pilot episode a Gold/Silver Anime with Ethan (then known as Jimmy) as the main character

Unfortunately it didn't really do so well in Japan so they scrapped the idea

 

[Alola]

From what I've heard, They were originally going to do just that in Gen 2

Apparently Legendary God of Thunder special was literally supposed to be a backdoor pilot episode a Gold/Silver Anime with Ethan (then known as Jimmy) as the main character

Unfortunately it didn't really do so well in Japan so they scrapped the idea

That doesn't make sense though considering the Jimmy special first aired two years after Ash & friends had already reached Johto; Ash had also been cemented as the marketable character by that point too (it was Brock they tried to replace, but later backpedaled). And if it was a pilot, why would they feature Jimmy with a fully evolved partner Pokémon, effectively closing out a lot of growth and story telling?

I quite enjoyed that special though.

 

[Sai]

If anything the Raikou special aired in 2001 a year before AG started. It was more of a backdoor pilot for May, since Kris/Marina acted somewhat similar in the special (just compare how girly and enthusiastic she is in the beginning and how she is basically shown performing with cute pokemon during a battle) and it was the first time the writers used game protagonists.

The writers had to have known they would be replacing Misty by then as the planning stages for AG would have started a year before the series came out.

 

[Enzo]

While I wouldn't go as far as to say JN ruined Dawn, I definitely think she was absolutely mistreated.

I don't want people to understand this as bashing towards any of this characters, because, really, it isn't. But why were Iris, Brock and Gary allowed to evolve as characters but Dawn wasn't?

Like, Iris is now the Champion of Unova and got Axew to fully evolve. Gary didn't got any new mons or evos but he's now part of a high-level task force in Project Mew. Brock is now a doctor and got himself a Blissey because Happiny fully evolved.

All of this characters were allowed to advance on their goals, yet Dawn is still the same. Considering that back in DP she ended in the 2nd place and now she's still not a Top Coordinator. Which means either two things:
A) She's still getting stuck in 2nd place, so she's stuck where she left;
Or B) She actually ranked lower than 2nd place, which would mean... she downgraded.

And all of this without even getting a new mon (which is insane cuz she traveled to at least 3 regions) and not even a measly new evolution.

And wanna know the worst part imo? She came back 3 separated times, and she wasn't the focus in neither of them.

I remember somebody, I don't recall who, saying that "Dawn feels like a relic from the past", and I not only feel the same, but I will also add: she's a fossil of the past in the absolute worst way possible. That's the part that really drives me insane: Why isn't she just allowed to advance?

 

[HiroHunter]

I don't want people to understand this as bashing towards any of this characters, because, really, it isn't. But why were Iris, Brock and Gary allowed to evolve as characters but Dawn wasn't?

Doesn't really count as bashing. Its fair to think why is Dawn being treated worse then other returning companions both in JN and in the past.

 

[Sai]

All 3 of her returns were for legendary pokemon arcs. She's basically handled the same way in the Arceus specials, at least so far. We covered in the other thread why it seems strange she doesn't have any new pokemon so I don't want to rehash it here. As for not being Top coordinator I guess the writers just don't feel a reason to do it's not relevant to the story they're telling now. In the unlikely scenario Serena or May ever appear again, they won't be top coordinator either for the same reason.

The lack of any focus on her goal is weird, but she still gets some screentime for herself with about 8 episodes. She gets to bond with Koharu, save the world, meet Go and Brock again, meet her AU counterpart, battle off Team Rocket or Galactic characters, and meet Cynthia. In terms of her role she's involved with the story.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Yeah, I agree that Dawn has definitely been treated the worst among returning characters. Everyone feels as if they made progress towards their goals, but Dawn hasn't. She's just going through contests in Sinnoh again and she has no team changes. Could have at least had Quilava evolve.

 

[Soniman]

I don't agree at all in regards to Dawn, frankly I find the obsession with advancing in terms of raw achievements a little tiresome. Like can't she just be allowed to vibe and.....be a character? She by far has had the most significant relations with Ash and the JN group currently when compared to other returning companions, and has contributed to the plot for her returns significantly, I wish she used more Pokémon other than Piplup but otherwise she fits in with the cast like a glove, I greatly enjoy the versatility she has no matter which character she's paired up with because they didn't miss a beat with her personality and it's like she never left.

I understand the frustrations but like is it really THAT important she's the greatest coordinator ever or she has a fully evolved team? Don't get me wrong I'd LIKE these things but they're not gonna make or break it for me.

Dawn has a full team already and a second place GF finalist so there's probably not a lot of wiggle room left and didn't wanna rock the boat. We already know she's still competing in contests in Sinnoh again so at least they acknowledge she's still working hard instead of completely ignoring it.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Yeah, I agree that Dawn has definitely been treated the worst among returning characters. Everyone feels as if they made progress towards their goals, but Dawn hasn't. She's just going through contests in Sinnoh again and she has no team changes. Could have at least had Quilava evolve.

As much as it annoys me that Dawn isn't allowed to make even the slightest team changes, I do have to disagree here. Dawn has gotten to return way more times than any other past companion bar Misty and Brock and unlike them she's gotten to be an active participant in some important plot way more often as well, which isn't something that a lot of other past companions can claim.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

While I wouldn't go as far as to say JN ruined Dawn, I definitely think she was absolutely mistreated.

I don't want people to understand this as bashing towards any of this characters, because, really, it isn't. But why were Iris, Brock and Gary allowed to evolve as characters but Dawn wasn't?

Like, Iris is now the Champion of Unova and got Axew to fully evolve. Gary didn't got any new mons or evos but he's now part of a high-level task force in Project Mew. Brock is now a doctor and got himself a Blissey because Happiny fully evolved.

All of this characters were allowed to advance on their goals, yet Dawn is still the same. Considering that back in DP she ended in the 2nd place and now she's still not a Top Coordinator. Which means either two things:
A) She's still getting stuck in 2nd place, so she's stuck where she left;
Or B) She actually ranked lower than 2nd place, which would mean... she downgraded.

And all of this without even getting a new mon (which is insane cuz she traveled to at least 3 regions) and not even a measly new evolution.

And wanna know the worst part imo? She came back 3 separated times, and she wasn't the focus in neither of them.

I remember somebody, I don't recall who, saying that "Dawn feels like a relic from the past", and I not only feel the same, but I will also add: she's a fossil of the past in the absolute worst way possible. That's the part that really drives me insane: Why isn't she just allowed to advance?

And people are so hyped for these returns when these characters are treated like shit... at least Dawn bonded with Chloe but her returns are clearly for BDSP/LA promotion.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't agree at all in regards to Dawn, frankly I find the obsession with advancing in terms of raw achievements a little tiresome. Like can't she just be allowed to vibe and.....be a character? She by far has had the most significant relations with Ash and the JN group currently when compared to other returning companions, and has contributed to the plot for her returns significantly, I wish she used more Pokémon other than Piplup but otherwise she fits in with the cast like a glove, I greatly enjoy the versatility she has no matter which character she's paired up with because they didn't miss a beat with her personality and it's like she never left.

I understand the frustrations but like is it really THAT important she's the greatest coordinator ever or she has a fully evolved team? Don't get me wrong I'd LIKE these things but they're not gonna make or break it for me.

Dawn has a full team already and a second place GF finalist so there's probably not a lot of wiggle room left and didn't wanna rock the boat. We already know she's still competing in contests in Sinnoh again so at least they acknowledge she's still working hard instead of completely ignoring it.

She could vibe and be a character, while still being allowed to grow. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The problem is that she comes off as stagnant compared to the other returning characters in Journeys. She seems like the odd one out when other characters have new Pokemon and/or have made progress in their respective goal, while Dawn hasn't. She has a bunch of new Contest Ribbons from her off-screen adventures, but that's about it and that just seems really weak compared to what other returning characters have been doing.

Now I wouldn't go as far as to say that Journeys ruined Dawn. From what I've seen of her returns, her personality is still shining through, her connection to Chloe seems genuine and she is actively participating in the plots of her returns. They'd obviously want to focus on her popular and marketable Piplup, but she isn't in the background despite that, which she easily could have been given how Dawn was handled in BW. These may not be the best examples of how to do a character return. I still think that May's return in DP is the best example, but they don't sound bad either in spite of my issues with Dawn's team and progress.

I do think that not having new Pokemon or any noteworthy progress is more frustrating and disappointing than anything else. While I'm still positive that it wasn't their intent, it still gives off the impression that Dawn is just stagnant. She isn't allowed any new Pokemon, new evolutions or becoming a Top Coordinator off-screen. Admittedly, I wasn't expecting her to become a Top Coordinator off screen before, but they could have easily evolved her Buneary and/or Quilava if they didn't want to change her team up that dramatically. The only reason I could see them keeping her Quilava is because it will evolve during the second half of the Arceus special. It's probably slim chances of that happening at best, but that's really the only good reason why they wouldn't have given her a Typhlosion earlier. When other characters are allowed to make progress, including ones that I don't like, while Dawn, my favorite female lead, seemingly in the same place she was at the end of DP, I just find it kind of sad and disappointing.

 

[HiroHunter]

I understand the frustrations but like is it really THAT important she's the greatest coordinator ever or she has a fully evolved team? Don't get me wrong I'd LIKE these things but they're not gonna make or break it for me.

All i'm asking is for Dawn to be given some progress for her goal thats it.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Heck, now that Hisuian Typhlosion is a thing it would be really cool for Dawn's Quillava to become one for even more Legends promotion. Then Ash's Quillava can still evolve the regular Typhlosion variant, which would not only help the two Typhlosions to properly stand out from each other, but it would create a lot of way overdue Typhlosion prominence.

The reason I want Dawn to get the Hisuian Typhlosion instead of Ash is because I feel like it'd be more fitting for the Sinnoh native to have a species variant that used to be endemic to that region.

 

[Soniman]

Heck, now that Hisuian Typhlosion is a thing it would be really cool for Dawn's Quillava to become one for even more Legends promotion. Then Ash's Quillava can still evolve the regular Typhlosion variant, which would not only help the two Typhlosions to properly stand out from each other, but it would create a lot of way overdue Typhlosion prominence.

The reason I want Dawn to get the Hisuian Typhlosion instead of Ash is because I feel like it'd be more fitting for the Sinnoh native to have a species variant that used to be endemic to that region.

Spoiler

feel like the people who want this to happen completely ignore the uhh, evolutionary and chronological reasons why this would effectly be impossibly for Dawn to pull off lol, unless they have some twist that Cyndaquil's egg was from the distant past there's pretty much no chance of that thing evolving into it. Heck they straight up state in the first Arceus ep that the Hisuian forms straight up don't exist anymore.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Spoiler

feel like the people who want this to happen completely ignore the uhh, evolutionary and chronological reasons why this would effectly be impossibly for Dawn to pull off lol, unless they have some twist that Cyndaquil's egg was from the distant past there's pretty much no chance of that thing evolving into it. Heck they straight up state in the first Arceus ep that the Hisuian forms straight up don't exist anymore.

They could always just slap a Dialga-induced time travel plot in there somewhere to make it possible

I mean, it's not like more contrived things haven't happened before.

 

[Sai]

Also it's a lot easier to give side characters like Brock some advancement who aren't in traditional token collecting quests. All you have to do is say Brock went to med school. Give Misty a Mega to show she's become a strong Gym leader. Iris similar by showing Axew evolved and being strongest of Unova.

As I said it's not just Dawn, I think May or Serena will never be allowed to win their competitions either. The only difference is we're actually seeing Dawn again whereas May and Serena are stuck in limbo and might not even show up this series.