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Esserise
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  • Hello! Sorry if I was being rude. I was in a rush.
    Esserise
    Esserise
    No, no, I didn't think you were being rude. No worries about that.

    You should probably know that I am quite slower in responding to personal messages. I like to put more thought into them, whereas most of my forum posts are more off-the-cuff and made while I'm at work where I have more time at the computer.

    Now to respond to your larger post:
    Esserise
    Esserise
    I can see why the idea that it's Nihilego imitating Lillie would seem more satisfying, but to me it just feels rife with issues that require a lot more explanation and supposition than the idea that Lusamine's monomania influenced the way she dressed Lillie, and kind of misses what I think is the point of Lillie's arc.

    Yes, it is said that Nihilego sometimes acts like a young girl, but they don't really make anything of this in the games. It's just mentioned in its Pokédex entry, which you don't actually see until well after the main story has finished. Whereas, both Lusamine's obsession with Nihilego as well as her imposed dress code for her children are significant character details that are brought up during the main campaign. In terms of emphasis, Nihilego acting like a young girl doesn't feel very significant. To me, it seems like it's just supposed to be another one of the curious behaviors that the UBs are said to demonstrate for reasons that nobody seems quite sure of. Like Buzzwole's posturing, or Pheromosa's reluctance to touch anything. None of these traits are discussed much in actual plot dialogue, and instead come from the Pokédex. It's supposed to give them personality, and I guess in Nihilego's case, it adds a minor layer of parallelism by way of positioning Nihilego as a potential "replacement" Lillie for Lusamine. Consider the framing of the shot that I've linked at the bottom of this post - just like in filmmaking, the framing of a shot is a form of storytelling unto itself. And here we have Lillie, in her new, independent-of-influence attire, looking at and confronting a twisted reflection of the stifling, abusive relationship that she recently managed to escape. If we read Nihilego as the source image of Lusamine's abuse; as the visage that Lusamine tried to force Lillie into, then this scene works very well on a visual level. It is a physical embodiment of their whole family tragedy. If Nihilego characteristically happens to act like a little girl sometimes, then that really just reiterates how Lusamine's relationship with it is a distillation of her toxic relationship with Lillie.

    I don't think that scene really works as well if the visual similarity is all a result of literally every Nihilego in Ultra Space imitating Lillie who, as far as we know, they've never encountered and have no way of seeing what she looks like, for totally nebulous reasons. It wouldn't, so far as we know, be because it's a parasite - they've already shown and described what Nihilego's parasitism looks like. Images on the Pokémon Daisuki Club follow the depiction used in Game Freak's own concept art for Nihilego (linked at the bottom), where Nihilego latches itself over the host's head, sort of like a hat or a headdress. (Incidentally, I'd argue that this image sort of implies that the Lillie-like jellyfish form of Nihilego is their *natural* form, and *not* a willfull affectation of a specific person - because the concept art says that this is a "typical image of its parasitic behavior," and is clearly facilitated by the jellyfish-like shape of its body).

    So I don't think there's much basis for taking "it's a parasite" to mean "it copies peoples' appearance." Rather, it's parasitism comes, as we're told, in the form of latching onto people (or in Lusamine's case, completely fusing with them) and injecting them with stimulating and intoxicating chemicals that make the hosts want to defend it.

    Furthermore, while Lusamine was aware of the broad concept of Ultra Beasts, she seemed to only care about Nihilego. She never mentions any others; Gladion specifically says that Mohn left behind papers about Nihilego, Wicke says that all of them except for Nihilego and Guzzlord (and we know why that one is an exception) were only first discovered *after* Lusamine opened up the numerous wormholes, and when in Ultra Space, Lusamine says these two sentences:

    "A world where the only thing that exists is the love between Nihilego and myself."

    "How dare you intrude upon this world that was meant for Nihilego and me?"

    I'd argue that those statements pretty clearly delineate a singular obsession with Nihilego. It's just that there happen to be *many* Nihilego in there, so she is also technically correct in using the plural term "Ultra Beasts."

    Speaking of Gladion, I'm not really inclined to rely on the anime's portrayal of his pre-desertion clothing as an adequate representation of whatever Game Freak may have had in mind. So as far as I am concerned, we don't know what he was dressed like by Lusamine. Of course, I think it's certainly possible that she didn't start out dressing them like Nihilego, and instead simply micromanaged their clothing - but then once Gladion revolted and left, Lusamine could have become more unhinged and monomaniacal (Lillie attests to this at one point), resulting in Lillie's Nihilego-esque stylings. But that's just a theory.

    Lastly, when I say "aesthetics, not cosplay," my meaning is simply that Lusamine was probably taking the descriptions she had available and trying to translate them into something fashionable, as opposed to something ridiculous and heavy-handed like hemming rubber tentacles to Lillie's clothes. Anyway, I don't see why she couldn't perceive her employees differently from Lillie. Sure, she also has authority over her employees, but they're effectively just drones from whom she has a professional distance. Lillie is somebody under her direct personal care, so to me it feels like of course the circumstances would be different. Lusamine's whole notion of love has been warped, and her children are the ones that she "loves" most of all. **Much** more than her employees - do you think she interacts with every worker every day and knows all of their names? I think she'd naturally be more particular about curating the appearance of her children than her workers, who were likely already adhering to a uniform code.

    Ultra Space scene: https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdoredOnlyAmericangoldfinch-small.gif

    Nihilego concept art: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/232/173/0ec.jpg
    SerenaToAlola
    SerenaToAlola
    Sorry for taking a while, I’ve been really busy. I accept your point on Nihilego’s parasitism. Though to clarify, while I did mention Nihilego’s parasitism, I wasn’t raising it to support my hypothesis. That said, I think we can both agree that Nihilego’s parasitism has nothing to do with Lillie’s appearance.
    As for the rest, I think it’s reasonable to say that while Lusamine is obsessed with Ultra Beasts, the only UB that she knew of was Nihilego and this as a result causes her to conflate the two so yes I can agree that Nihilego has special significance to her such that she could want to dress her children like Nihilego. I think it is also plausible that Lusamine only became more unhinged and monomaniacal when Gladion left such that it was only Lillie that got dressed like Nihilego assuming that she wants to dress her children like Nihilego. I can also agree with you on how Lusamine could have dressed Lillie the way she does because of her warped notion of love i.e. acting as though she loves the person she is supposed to love (her daughter) by forcing them into her image of the one thing she really loves (UB/Nihilego) assuming that she wants to dress her children like Nihilego. These are all good and valid points on their own but they neglect two other points.
    The first relates to Nihilego’s behaviour. I don’t think it’s fair to just treat this titbit that GF left with us as insignificant. You sound like you know about film studies so you should know that you have to accept that everything is there for a reason when analysing films and that you should not just dismiss whatever is not in favour of your theory just because. To deal with this I’d like to go to a very good point you made on the visual impact of Z-form Lillie looking at Lusamine and Nihilego and how there’s a parallel between Lillie and Nihilego and how Nihilego is in some sense a symbol of their family tragedy. I agree with this but I believe that your analysis can be broadened. You mentioned Lillie’s arc in your post and I believe that that’s something that we definitely have to take into consideration when analysing Nihilego and Lillie’s appearance. That said, I don’t think Nihilego is just about Lillie’s arc. IMO, Nihilego is a convergent point between Lillie’s arc (i.e. her self-realization and how she grows into her own person) and Lusamine’s arc (i.e. family). As such, instead of Nihilego imitating Lillie or Lusamine imitating Nihilego, maybe Nihilego is just a manifestation of the conflict that Lusamine and Lillie faces in the form of some otherworldly supernatural being and that any resemblance between the two is just uncanny? As such, Nihilego acting like a little girl is perhaps just another example of how it is symbolic of all the mummy/daddy issues that it is typical of such conflicts between parent and child. I admit that this leans more in favour towards Lusamine imitating Nihilego than Nihilego imitating Lillie but a problem that I had was that Nihilego is apparently supposed to be “constantly changing shapes”. I can’t find any official statement on this anymore but my point is that if Nihilego is “constantly changing shapes”, how did Lusamine decide that this Jellyfish look is what she had to copy? That’s why I am of the personal opinion that it is just a coincidence.
    The other point that I think is neglected is the appearance of the other Ultra Beasts. I didn’t mention this before but what about how much Lusamine looks like Pheromosa? And how Buzzwole looks like Kukui? And how Xurkitree looks like Guzma? I think all of these Ultra Beasts have as much resemblance to those characters as Lillie does to warrant us looking into them. Building on my earlier point, perhaps it goes to show that Ultra Beasts in general are just manifestations of various interpersonal conflicts faced by the characters in SM. Moving forward, I think it could be interesting to see how the UB further develops and whether USUM would create further links between the UBs and the characters they resemble.
    So Marshadow possesses a bunch of Pokemon at an attempt to kill Ash and the other three trainers. Okay...

    This makes me uncomfortable because it's another case of a movie treading close to my view of Neo Celebi, except... not really because there is no backstory to justify this extreme attitude. Plus, it's small in scale.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Chapter 6 is up. It's the last one set in New Bark Town.
    Esserise
    Esserise
    Hey, I'm going to let you know now that I might be taking a brief hiatus from this site. I mean, my activity usually does die down a bit when a new game is out anyway, but I had a pretty miserable weekend and am actually still recovering from it to a degree. That, and I don't feel like there's a whole lot I could contribute to the USUM threads, and the Gen 8 thread is going to be a purgatory of useless non-leaks until sometime next year, I'm sure. Those being my two main haunts, I'm not left with much to do, and I suppose underlying all of that is a touch of burnout.

    Still, even if I do leave for a bit, I wouldn't rule out the occasional pop-in, and I would still be keeping up with your story (haven't read the newest chapter yet, but as I said, it's been a bad week) and responding to that. So this probably wouldn't even affect you all that much, but I've been bad about my delays and absences before and wanted to try to at least give a heads-up this time.

    Hope you're doing well, too.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    No problem. I hope you recover soon and am happy to listen if you want to vent.

    I'm pretty much just staying around these parts for my fanfic.
    Welp. There goes my interest in the franchise down the drain.

    I'm pretty sure that they did consider a cross-platform release at one point, which would explain Eurogamer and the Switch TBA slip-up. But it clearly isn't a cross-platform release, and a fifth version, even for the Switch, would be ridiculous. I hope they realize that, but who knows anymore.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    I can't get over how they're wrapping up this generation in such a lame way. You'd think that they'd handle it with at least as much care as they did with Generation V, but nope. A third version pair with minimal promotion so that they can release the next generation next year. Nevermind the fact that Kanto sequels could have been released for both systems as early as this year had they planned them in 2015. And such games could have come fairly close to SM's sales...

    2018: Generation VIII
    2019-2020: DP remakes
    2021: Generation IX (Switch)
    2022: Third versions or sequels for the above
    2023-2024: Generation X (Switch's successor)

    Oh joy. Maybe if USUM flop we can get Kanto sequels for 2022. Pretty please? I am not going to hold my breath for 5 years, that's for sure. Plus, considering how old even the VC games will be by then, who's to say that they wouldn't just remake the games again? And even if we did get sequels, would they even include Johto?

    I am only going to bother with the Switch if some third-party company releases a game that I don't have a love-hate relationship with.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Well, a little time to digest everything has actually made me go back to square one. To make a long story short: I think that sequels next year would make a hell of a lot more sense than a rushed generation. See my reasoning in the sequel thread, which I'm going to avoid for a while due to Bolt. At the end of the day, only about four months ago I expected Stars to be the 2017 game and sequels to follow it. I am unconvinced that USUM really change much.

    After some thinking, I've realized that having Silktree be Lusamine's father... doesn't make sense when Fuji is the one known for wanting to protect Pokemon. He too founded a research center, and we actually know that he was wealthy - he lived in a mansion! And this connection would give Lusamine the idea of creating Type Null, as well as making her return to Kanto all the more potent.

    I'd imagine that Lusamine grew up in Germany with her mom rather than Kanto, hence Lillie knowing nothing about Fuji. Now, here's hoping that USUM don't botch up the story.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    What USUM -do- change is my willingness to spend years on speculating how Game Freak would revisit Kanto and Johto. The ball is in their court and I know they can screw it up by not bothering at all. I also know that if they do sequels, they won't be amazing as they could be. They could still be the best games they've ever done, which is enough.

    That's fine as long as I don't get too invested. I have my own story to explore.
    I hope you are not mad at me for our little Unova lore debate or anything. I still like it way more than Hoenn, Sinnoh or Kalos', lol.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    LOL at the people who think that Game Freak is working on a non-Pokemon RPG for a dated system.

    We're back in the Z era of madness.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Back to plot ideas: Getting Silktree to forgive Neo Celebi for genocide wouldn't be easy... Or I would hope so! AZ and Eternal Floette's cringeworthy finale gives me pause.

    Christ, I hate XY so much.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/m20-i-choose-you.217258/page-59#post-6160564

    forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/m20-i-choose-you.217258/page-62#post-6160968

    A great example of how multiple timelines -shouldn't- be done. Please don't ever do anything like this, Game Freak. I mean, you did mess up the XY-ORAS connection, but at least you didn't invalidate anything major from the older timelines.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    I think that I prefer people ignoring me to their saying "these ideas are fine, I guess" at best and then proceeding to rework them. That's pretty fucking rude.
    Esserise
    Esserise
    Well, I personally wouldn't take it as being rude. I'm certainly not fond of their alternative suggestion, especially since it tries to contrive some connection to Sinnoh stuff (seemingly just "because dimensions"), but reading their post just looks to me like they're not feeling your idea and are critical of certain aspects (like it seeming convoluted, which is a fair point that even I raised, and which you then explained why it wouldn't be). I'd say "not everyone's going to like as much as I did" and "this fandom doesn't tend to think outside the box", but I know you already know that. At any rate, what they've responded with is at least better than flatly dismissing it as total rubbish, or something.

    At this point, I just want to know what we're getting. I've braced myself for the disappointment of Stars, just in case, and have already decided how it's going to play out either way. So now I'm just waiting for the signal.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Except that person didn't seem to take issue with time travel complexity (I doubt that they gave it much thought), but rather with the focus on Mewtwo and Neo Celebi. "Too much drama," they said.

    Whatever.

    As for Stars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZher9Az7d4
    See my posts in the movie thread (I'd link you if I could).

    The movie isn't even close to a celebration of the original series... Seems like a way to promote Kanto sequels to me, with Ash getting a reboot for the hell of it. I honestly expect Brock and Misty to be in their 20s now, which would explain the odd replacements.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Also, how contrived would it be if the Magnet Train were closed down, or we couldn't get on it? Maybe I shouldn't be saying that after XY... The difference is that we were never given a reason to care about where -that- train was going (it was described as bringing people to Kalos).
    Silktree
    Silktree
    lol, I really don't want Makoto, Soji or Cross to bring down the sequels in any way. Hopefully the movie is taking some liberties with their main traits. Well, we don't much about them right now, but they just aren't interesting.

    I just have such strong feelings about Lillie, Silver, Chieko, Silktree and Fuji, and to a lesser extent Lusamine, Giovanni, Bill, Daisy and Eusine. It sucks that I have no real control.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Hurry up and post in the sequel thread.
    I see you have taken a liking to Xurkitree. I know you love Pyukumuku too. You have very good taste! What are your other s/m mon?
    Esserise
    Esserise
    My other favorites would have to be the entire Litten line, Lycanroc (both forms), Mareanie, Mudbray/Mudsdale, Lurantis, Steenee, Passimian, Sandygast/Palossand, Mimikyu, Bruxish, and Dhlemise.

    And as far and Legendaries and UBs, I really like both Solgaleo and Lunala, as well as Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Fini (Tapu Lele is fine but I don't like it as much as the others), and then Nihilego (of course), Buzzwole, and Pheromosa.

    EDIT: Oh, and the Jangmo-o line has grown on me quite a lot, too.
    It figures that some people would complain about Sun and Moon getting a third version over XY. I won't deny that XY are the games that "need" it more, but this move is not about "fixing" anything. It is childish to see it that way.

    Sun and Moon are obviously easier to upgrade than XY are, and a lot more people are interested in them. That's all there is to it.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    It would be cool if Hau's father were part of the new Elite Four...
    Esserise
    Esserise
    > The construction lots just mean that Game Freak considered something at some point. Be it for SM or for a hypothetical follow-up.

    Not that it actually matters, but I shudder to think of the fandom reaction were the lots to pan out to nothing. The new Power Plants/Couriway Station.

    But no, nobody call attention to them in the games. They're just lying there.

    > [Hau's dad]

    I agree that it's not completely clear as to where Hau's dad is, but associative property and the fact that Kanto is relevant to several SM characters leads my gut to think that his dad would be in Kanto too. Him being an Elite Four would be really cool - and narratively, it could make for a nice surprise for Hau. Maybe he's not expecting to find his dad in Kanto; as you say, Lillie seems to be his priority (though to be completely honest, I wouldn't mind if they just dropped that angle entirely and we didn't see Hau at all - his last-minute crush on Lillie was hard for me to believe).
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Inaccessible locations are annoying, but people who obsess over them need to get a grip. Not every location out there is a must-see experience. We've been waiting 21+ years for the Vermilion lot, by the way.

    I don't want Hau to have an actual role, as he is rather one-note. I'm still considering what should be done with a new rival, as I don't see Lillie filling that role.
    For some reason I can't reply here or post anything too long. How do you do it?

    Anyway, I still think that a plot revolving around a deadly epidemic would be a very refreshing change of pace. Perhaps Lusamine ends up spreading her disease unintentionally? Maybe her symptoms will be even worse in Stars.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    I am not sure that it's preferable to strike while the iron is out if the idea is to continue the Kanto/Johto promotion until late 2018 and even beyond. I think it would be fitting to announce sequels on the VC release date, as was the case for Sun and Moon. If they re-release GSC next year and use them to announce Stars... meh.

    Things are pretty confusing with the way they're simultaneously promoting a new generation alongside old ones. Granted, popular old Pokemon get toy releases pretty frequently, but an old generation being singled out is rare.
    Esserise
    Esserise
    Ah! That's a good point. Obviously the VCs aren't very "big" releases in and of themselves, so like the RBY VCs, it makes more sense for them to be a supplementary companion piece, of sorts. With that in mind, maybe the idea behind the Go update (aside from the more major motivations) is simply to "reintroduce" the Gen II Pokémon to the public so that later announcements will have a foundation.
    Silktree
    Silktree
    Yep. I think it's a way to make people nostalgic and just reminisce about Johto without capitalizing on it right away. That, and Go needs more content.

    I wonder if the next Go expansion will involve Generation VII, skipping over four generations.
    Regarding your last question:

    To be honest, while I somewhat liked the idea of using Necrozma in Kanto rather than Alola, I can do without an "Ultra Beast threatens a region" plot again. They can take Lillie and Lusamine's story in a different direction... after tweaking the story we've already seen.
    Having to wait until 2020 for games that could actually bring something new to the table is a scary thought. 2021 might sound like a better fit for a Kanto/Johto return than 2018 chronologically speaking, but waiting that long would put a lot of potential to waste. Game Freak shouldn't take it for granted that people that started with Generation I will still have the same interest in the series as they do now.
    • Like
    Reactions: Esserise
    Esserise
    Esserise
    I think I can understand Stars as a strategic move, if their goal is to have something with exclusive content to put on the Switch while not alienating the people that already bought SM-3DS ("Hey, at least you're not missing a whole new game!"), while also being less work for themselves (I'd assume it's a bit safer to get their testing for the Switch done on a port-ish thing rather than a completely new, from-the-ground-up creation). That much I can understand, and hell, it may be the only instance in which I find a "third version" to be ethically tolerable.

    But there would *have* to be Kanto sequels in 2018. If SM are merely getting a third version rather than a sequel or a major rewrite or anything, then I cautiously assume that they wouldn't change Lillie's ending, but the payoff for that simply cannot wait until 2021. 2018 is the maximum limit that I can see for that. And I mean, if they want to play up Necrozma's importance a bit before sending it over to Kanto, then sure, why not I guess. Although - if Stars is going to expand on Necrozma and explain everything about it, would it then even be necessary for it to appear in the Kanto sequels?
    Thoughts on my latest post in the sequel thread?

    I am honestly worried now. If Game Freak are resorting to a third version, DP remakes in 2018 wouldn't be surprising. And that would make a generation that started unpredictably wind up fairly similar to Generation III and Generation IV, ignoring the Switch transition (which isn't going to make anything better content-wise).
    Hey! What do you say? Do you agree that the two new Grass 'mons were the best part of the reveal? :p
    Esserise
    Esserise
    The whole drop was pretty great, but yes, I think Steenee and Tsareena are my two favorites of the lot, and two of my favorite Gen VII Pokémon overall. :)
    Kharixi
    Kharixi
    Same here. When Game Freak makes a good Pokémon, they really make a good Pokémon! :p
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