From an out of universe standpoint, why do you think Ash won the Alola league?

[Daren]

It’s been quite a few months now since the big day where Ash/Satoshi finally won a (game based) regional league. Now we’re some ways into the newest series and the question is:
Why?
Ash winning a regional league had been steadfastly denied for two decades, so what changed?

Firstly, I want to look at an important question: was this a writing decision or an executive decision?
I think this interview with Rica Matsumoto from right after the win, kindly translated by Dogasu, has a telling quote:

So when did you find out Satoshi was actually going to win this one?

Matsumoto: When we first started working on the Alola Pokemon League the director came up to me and said “This time we definitely want to let Satoshi win” and I was like “What? HE'S WINNING!?” And that's how I found out. And for a while I was in disbelief, going “Are you joking with me right now?” and “You mean we can actually do that?” (laughs)

This is the telling part:

“You mean we can actually do that?”

Tone doesn't really carry in text, but I think the phrasing (we can actually do that?) lends weight to what I’ve suspected; Ash’s league losses were not because the writers thought it worked best for the story, but because it was being mandated from higher up.

Full interview with Rica Matsumoto here:

CoroCoro Online Interview with Rica Matsumoto (Part 1)

Let's address the theory I see come up the most: it was a response to the Kalos league backlash.
It is interesting that after the largest backlash to a league defeat (including responses from staff members) he won the one right after, but he also made it to the semifinals in XY, so without a stall or another fall they were running out of space, so to speak--except BW shows that having him fall a ranking was entirely on the table.
Truthfully I'm not sure what I believe myself, but I sort of lean towards it being at least partly a factor--perhaps he still would have won without it, but it may have been used as an argument in favor of it during whatever meeting ended in the decision.

There's two related questions:
1: Was there a "Satoshi/Ash isn't allowed to win an important regional league" rule that was lifted and the staff jumped on the opportunity, or was there a specific order from above to have him win for whatever reason?
2: Was the idea behind Journeys (a region hopping show with a world tournament) created as a way to follow up a league win, or was a region hopping show pitched and it was decided it wouldn't make sense doing that without him winning a regional first?

So what does everyone else think?

 

[game3524]

Because the story called for it.

I don't think the backlash towards Kalos had anything to do with it. The people most upset with Ash's loss at Kalos aren't even the shows primary target audience. This time around, there was just no reason for him to lose. Alola didn't have a traditional Elite Four like the other regions had, which I think is the biggest reason why Ash hasn't won a league since the show doesn't have enough time to cover an arc like that.

 

[Johtohfiller]

It was time. He'd been steadily climbing the ranks (except for BW but we don't talk about that).

It might have taken them a while to figure out where to go after that.

 

[Daren]

I don't think the backlash towards Kalos had anything to do with it. The people most upset with Ash's loss at Kalos aren't even the shows primary target audience.

I did comment on this in an original--much longer--opening post.
I'm sort of divided on the point since the target audience probably aren't posting twitter, but the franchise tries to cash in on nostalgia pretty often, and XY in particular went heavy on the Kanto--mostly in the games, but even in the show there is no way Alain having an overpowered Charizard X was not intentional.
Now, if you have to choose between a target audience and a periphery you go with the target, but in this case there is no conflict because the younger viewers won't complain if he wins.
Consider how things played out--the Alola win gave the series a sudden burst of positive attention that even hit twitter's trending for a while, and it's interesting (though not definitively linked) that the new series is doing better than Sun/Moon in DVR numbers when the show's viewership has traditionally declined.

Alola didn't have a traditional Elite Four like the other regions had, which I think is the biggest reason why Ash hasn't won a league since the show doesn't have enough time to cover an arc like that.

I have considered before that the E4 might have been part of the problem. Truthfully I think the awkward nature of being a toyetic series (they don't have a ton of forewarning on when they have to start writing for a new game) causes a lot of the show's problems.
Edit: Reading the transformers wiki for another very prominent toyetic series is very enlightening because we have lots of behind the scenes revelations about its series', especially combined with what we know from Takeshi Shudo about how much Pokémon gets influenced from above.

It was time. He'd been steadily climbing the ranks (except for BW but we don't talk about that).

Eh, many people may not like the Unova League outcome, but it shows Ash dropping again (or just stalling) for Alola was always an option.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

My take is that somewhere during the run of SM, probably early on during the 20th anniversary hype, the directer got the idea to make the current series. I think the Mew featured at Oak's Lab in the Kanto episode may have been a teaser for this. Once they had the idea not to primarily focus on the next region (Galar) in the following series, they must have finally deemed it acceptable for Ash to win a regional league, since Ash would be doing something completely different after that.

They also probably wanted to avoid a perpetual cycle of Ash winning 2nd place every gen.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was partly due to the backlash from the Kalos League. I don't think it was the only factor or even necessarily the biggest one, but it is kind of suspicious that they allow Ash to win the Alola League just a few years later after the Kalos League backlash. I don't think it was out of a desire to appeal to older fans exactly. If they cared about that, then Ash would have been replaced at least a decade ago. Maybe they didn't realize just how much people wanted Ash to win a game related region League until the Kalos League finale and decided to give him a victory here. Kids wouldn't be against Ash winning and there would be the added benefit of appealing to long time fans too.

I think it's also just as likely, if not more so, that they just wanted to mirror the Sun/Moon games in where the player character becomes the first Alola Champion. Ash always takes up the role of the player character and they didn't introduce a typical Elite 4 or Champion of Alola beforehand, so Ash was able to take that role from the games in the anime.

The setup for the following series could have also been a factor. They could have done the region hopping setup with Ash going into the World Tournament without the Alola League victory, but it might not have made as much sense without that victory. Or at the very least, I don't think that the audience would expect Ash to have a chance to defeat Leon, let alone make it possible, if they didn't already show him winning the Alola League first.

 

[Silktree]

2: Was the idea behind Journeys (a region hopping show with a world tournament) created as a way to follow up a league win, or was a region hopping show pitched and it was decided it wouldn't make sense doing that without him winning a regional first?

The world tournament idea must have come first because it's more important than Ash winning the Alola League (and by the time they started working on the Alola League, they should have had a solid concept for the next series). I doubt that Ash would have won had he been meant to do another badge quest.

 

[Daren]

My take is that somewhere during the run of SM, probably early on during the 20th anniversary hype, the directer got the idea to make the current series. I think the Mew featured at Oak's Lab in the Kanto episode may have been a teaser for this. Once they had the idea not to primarily focus on the next region (Galar) in the following series, they must have finally deemed it acceptable for Ash to win a regional league, since Ash would be doing something completely different after that.

This seems fairly plausible, yeah. It does raise the question of why they're not advertising Sw/Sh primarily when previously they had to rush through things at times to promote the newest entry--maybe with Pokémon Go and Detective Pikachu the show isn't seen as quite a vital for advertising as it used to and they're willing to let it experiment more?

They also probably wanted to avoid a perpetual cycle of Ash winning 2nd place every gen.

I definitely think there's an argument to be made that once he got runner up they were sort of running out of options and they may as well tear the bandage off now instead of seeing how long they could keep it going.

Maybe they didn't realize just how much people wanted Ash to win a game related region League until the Kalos League finale and decided to give him a victory here. Kids wouldn't be against Ash winning and there would be the added benefit of appealing to long time fans too.

Yes, I have seen companies respond to fan requests even with no obvious immediate financial advantage (it builds up a good relation which is helpful in it's own way, of course). I don't think it's that unlikely that the response to Kalos and all the hype built up before it (there was posts about "retired" viewers coming in to catch the league) showed that there was such a strong desire to see him winning a league and they did it to generate goodwill and buzz as opposed to trying to avoid a sales drop.

I suspect a lot of the target audience would already be aware of his reputation from siblings/parents/internet, so we can't discount him winning generating excitement from them as well--it would be a real plot twist compared to a lot of series where it's expected.

I think it's also just as likely, if not more so, that they just wanted to mirror the Sun/Moon games in where the player character becomes the first Alola Champion. Ash always takes up the role of the player character and they didn't introduce a typical Elite 4 or Champion of Alola beforehand, so Ash was able to take that role from the games in the anime.

...Yet another thing I went over then deleted but in this case I thought I had kept it. I think I trimmed the opening post way too much to avoid making it a wall of text.
This definitely feels like it could be a factor. I guess they didn't bother keeping the "becomes champion" part of previous games (or the now mandatory Legendary captures), but Alola having it as the first tournament makes it a bit different in that regard.

Or at the very least, I don't think that the audience would expect Ash to have a chance to defeat Leon, let alone make it possible, if they didn't already show him winning the Alola League first.

Even as is if Leon really is the strongest in the world it'll be hard to really do it convincingly after seeing how powerful Cynthia or Tobias were.
Although I'm not sure how strong Kukui is supposed to be in the anime--he's Champion tier in the games, after all, and Ash just defeated him even with a Legendary joining Kukui.

The world tournament idea must have come first because it's more important than Ash winning the Alola League (and by the time they started working on the Alola League, they should have had a solid concept for the next series). I doubt that Ash would have won had he been meant to do another badge quest.

I'm actually curious when they decided to let him win--definitely before any real work started on journeys, I should think. Rica Matsumo didn't know until very late, but I'm not sure how much VAs are kept informed on that sort of thing in Japan, so it may not mean much.

(This is also why I'm wondering if they have a plan for the gen 9 series yet or not; unless they shift Ash's focus or repeat the World Tournament again it's tricky to figure out what they can do next that won't feel like an obvious step down).

 

[Gabo2oo]

This is vague but I'm sure I saw a tweet from someone involved in XYZ (not sure if a writer or Rica Matsumoto) saying something like "I wonder why we can't let Satoshi win" after the Kalos League aired. So at the very least the interview with Rica Matsumoto after the Alola League wouldn't be the first time it's implied that the writers didn't have the final say if I'm not mistaken.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I personally thought it was to truely replicate the story and sentiment of the Sun/Moon games: a boy who moves from Kanto to Alola, discovers new people who become almost family-like friends and he gets to rise to the top, becoming the first champion of the region blessed by the regional deity.

 

[Hidden Mew]

...Yet another thing I went over then deleted but in this case I thought I had kept it. I think I trimmed the opening post way too much to avoid making it a wall of text.
This definitely feels like it could be a factor. I guess they didn't bother keeping the "becomes champion" part of previous games (or the now mandatory Legendary captures), but Alola having it as the first tournament makes it a bit different in that regard.

They didn't keep the "becomes Champion" part before most likely because of the established Elite 4 and Champions. There just wouldn't be enough time for Ash to win a League and then go onto the Champion League since they usually need to jump right into the next series shortly after a League arc wraps up. Since Alola didn't have an Elite 4 or Champion for Ash to battle and I'd still argue that the Alola League was set on easy mode, they could afford for Ash to win while not having to wonder how to handle a Champion League arc. Plus, aside from the Sinnoh and Kalos Leagues, there weren't any other time where Ash could have believably won a League.

Even as is if Leon really is the strongest in the world it'll be hard to really do it convincingly after seeing how powerful Cynthia or Tobias were.
Although I'm not sure how strong Kukui is supposed to be in the anime--he's Champion tier in the games, after all, and Ash just defeated him even with a Legendary joining Kukui.

It might be more convincing once they showcase more of his Pokemon. We've only seen Leon's Charizard thus far, but seeing more of his battles with his other Pokemon might help to convey just how strong he is to the audience.

 

[J Bouken]

Tone doesn't really carry in text, but I think the phrasing (we can actually do that?) lends weight to what I’ve suspected; Ash’s league losses were not because the writers thought it worked best for the story, but because it was being mandated from higher up.

I wouldn't be so sure. For one thing, we've no idea how informed the voice talent are about the direction of the story. I'm pretty sure they don't know what's going to happen until they're handed the script for whatever episode they're recording. Same with the animation staff. Any writing decisions would have been made well in advance of the episode's production. Secondly, I struggle to think of a reason why Ash losing in a league would be a mandate from some unspecified high ranking person. If we're talking about the production committee, or some director from the TV company, then their main concern is the anime's continued existence and as we've seen from the transition from SM to PM2019, Ash winning a league wasn't the threat to that existence we were led to believe it'd be. There are a myriad of ways for the show to continue.

I think it's more likely they were writing decisions. Once they knew Ash would be heading off to a new region, they had him lose because it would make starting again from zero a lot easier. Ash "learns" he still has a long way to go and can go to a new region motivated to do better than he did before, whereas if he wins, it becomes harder to justify him leaving his Pokemon behind and starting again. Hence PM2019 ditching the badge quest entirely and replacing it with the World Championships. The old badge collecting quest is beneath Ash at this point in terms of challenge and what he can realistically learn. We also know from Shudo's blogs that the Pokemon anime has a long history of formulaic writing ("This is where the big action sequences is" "This is the part that makes people cry" "This is where Team Rocket blasts off" etc. Paraphrasing but you get the idea) so I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Ash losing was part of that as well.

Why they decided to have Ash finally win we'll probably never know. However, I would speculate they received greater freedom to make more drastic decisions to make the anime more its own thing rather than be tied so closely to the games. Nowadays, game adaptations are mostly original stories or very loose re-tellings of the original story. For the Pokemon anime to stay with the times, it had to stop being confined by the games it was based on and at the core of that was this loop of Ash losing and starting again; the idea that every new story had to begin with Ash as close to zero as possible, to better reflect the player character. This would also explain why the new anime isn't entirely based on the Sword/Shield games.

 

[Daren]

This is vague but I'm sure I saw a tweet from someone involved in XYZ (not sure if a writer or Rica Matsumoto) saying something like "I wonder why we can't let Satoshi win" after the Kalos League aired. So at the very least the interview with Rica Matsumoto after the Alola League wouldn't be the first time it's implied that the writers didn't have the final say if I'm not mistaken.

That was Aito Ohashi, an animation director.
Rica Matsumoto did tweet, but I think it was just saying that he learns and grows from his defeats.

I wouldn't be so sure. For one thing, we've no idea how informed the voice talent are about the direction of the story. I'm pretty sure they don't know what's going to happen until they're handed the script for whatever episode they're recording. Same with the animation staff. Any writing decisions would have been made well in advance of the episode's production

Rica Matsumoto may not know ahead of time what's going to happen, but I suspect she knows more about what's going on with the show than any of us do, and the phrasing of "You mean we can actually do that?" isn't definitive by any means, but I wouldn't dismiss it.

Secondly, I struggle to think of a reason why Ash losing in a league would be a mandate from some unspecified high ranking person.

Because it's the most obvious way to keep him starting over for each new game.
The reason I think it's not from the writers is because of the very odd way the Sinnoh League was handled, where they made it as obvious as humanly possible Ash was the second strongest there despite only make top 4 because of the seeding of the tournament.

 

[Mew2]

While I don't know for sure, I would not be surprised if the backlash against the results of the Kalos League had something to do with the decision to have Ash win Alola. Also, the very structure of the Alola League in the games and animé also meant that they could give Ash a win, even a complete one by having him not only win the League proper, but also the real final battle against Kukui, while still having him be able to reach higher goals in Journeys with him taking part in the Pokémon World Cup and eventually facing the Number One Trainer in that, Leon.

 

[ThatAsianInTheCorner]

This was basically Ash's only main-series win in the Anime, if you don't count Orange Islands.
It was most likely made for a "F**king Finally!" moment for the Anime watchers, as up until this point, he placed relatively decently in previous leagues, Going Top 50 in Kanto to being Bullshitted out of winning in Kalos.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

It was the logical conclusion of his progress in the leagues so far.

Top 16 in Kanto (lost to some random guy)
Top 8 in Johto (lost to the semi-finalist)
Top 8 in Hoenn (lost to the champion)
Top 4 in Sinnoh (lost to the champion)
Top 2 in Kalos (lost to the champion)
Top 1 in Alola (became the champion)

 

[Nicolas721]

Reading through the posts, it's interesting to see that many arguments are equally valid and probably played a part in some form or other. Basically, the producers thought that it was time for Ash to move onto bigger adventures less tied to badge quests, and that fans wouldn't want to wait another 3 years for a more competitive series (that would probably have been compared unfavorably to XY).

Which brings me to the things I want to talk about. Was this really planned from the start? SM, specially in its beginning is the least battle-focused arc I've seen, even if they make a big deal out of Z-moves battles feel more like a hobby in Alola. Also, Ash was very passive during the series, and until the league he wasn't that interested on becoming specifically Alola's top trainer.

Also, did the writers made the tournament more friendly and with less stakes than the previous ones so Ash could realistically win it without reserves? Or they just wanted to have fun with the characters and hoped people would ignore that for the big picture of him winning?

 

[Daren]

Which brings me to the thing I want to talk about. Was this really planned from the start? SM, specially in its beginning is the least battle-focused arc I've seen, even if they make a big deal out of Z-moves battles feel more like a hobby in Alola. Also, Ash was very passive during the series, and until the league he wasn't that interested on becoming specifically Alola's top trainer.

I suspect it wasn't planned from the start due to the lower battling focus--I could be wrong but advertising it as a comedy where the protagonist goes to school while planning to make it the one where he finally takes the big step as a battler would be a very strange move.

Edit:

Also, did the writers made the tournament more friendly and with less stakes than the previous ones so Ash could realistically could win it without reserves? Or they just wanted to have fun with the characters and hoped people would ignore that for the big picture of him winning?

My guess?
*Even once the decision was made they weren't going to drastically retool the tone of the show for it.
*I believe Sun and Moon was a lot lighter on "characters of the day" than previous series, so it makes sense in that regard for the league to use pre-existing characters--they also probably liked the idea of Ash's friends and TR competing in it for once, and Alola not having traditional Gym leaders makes it easier to do then "oh yeah, James was gathering badges of screen throughout Kalos" would have been.

I'm not sure if the writers thought of the Alola league as being "easier" like a number of fans do though, so that may not have been a factor.
The tiny finals, though, feel like something they want overlooked--I think the Kukui battle was added to serve as the real proper finals in that regard, being a full battle with an actual champion-equivalent from the games using a Legendary with four episodes.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Reading through the posts, it's interesting to see that many arguments are equally valid and probably played a part in some form or other. Basically, the producers thought that it was time for Ash to move onto bigger adventures less tied to badge quests, and that fans wouldn't want to wait another 3 years for a more competitive series (that would probably have been compared unfavorably to XY).

Which brings me to the thing I want to talk about. Was this really planned from the start? SM, specially in its beginning is the least battle-focused arc I've seen, even if they make a big deal out of Z-moves battles feel more like a hobby in Alola. Also, Ash was very passive during the series, and until the league he wasn't that interested on becoming specifically Alola's top trainer.

I highly doubt it was planned from the start. I don't know how far they go with planning out the series or when this decision could have realistically been made, but I don't think it would make much sense if they did plan this from the start. SM was pretty light hearted, more slice of life focused compared to other series and it wasn't really battle heavy. The Island Challenge was basically the Alola version of Gym battles, but the concept was handled so poorly that it felt like such a massive afterthought. If they set out to have Ash win the Alola League from the start, then that really doesn't show in the final product. He didn't even talk about taking part in Trials or Grand Trials for long stretches of time, which was jarring after years of seeing him eagerly go towards the next Gym. Although, to be fair, the Alola League wasn't established to the main cast for quite some time and Ash was just set on learning more about Alola with his new friends, so I can understand why he wasn't set on becoming the top trainer in Alola prior to the League.

Also, did the writers made the tournament more friendly and with less stakes than the previous ones so Ash could realistically could win it without reserves? Or they just wanted to have fun with the characters and hoped people would ignore that for the big picture of him winning?

I'm sure that they liked the prospect of not having to design new one shot rivals or characters for the League. It does fit with the theme of togetherness within the Alola region to make it open to everyone from the start. It was probably the only time where they could include the whole cast and Team Rocket in a Pokemon League as well since they didn't have to worry about justifying them with off-screen accomplishments like they did with Jessie's Showcases. Having few Pokemon in each match was also probably done in order to allow everyone to get at least one battle. Most of the main cast didn't have more than two Pokemon, so the more standard League battle format wouldn't have really worked. Even Ash didn't have a full team on him until Naganadel showed up again

While I can understand why they structured the Alola League this way with different in and out of universe reasons, it still kind of makes the accomplishment a bit less noteworthy in a way considering that the Alola League is set on easy mode. It is still the first victory Ash has had in over a decade, so that does count for something, but I also still feel like it isn't that huge either. I doubt the writers really thought of it that way and I'm sure part of the reason they went with the world tour format was because they didn't want to water down the accomplishment with Ash just going for another Gym badge quest, but I don't think it's that much of a game changer or at least that it means that there would be no point in Ash going back to a traditional badge quest in the future.

 

[J Bouken]

Because it's the most obvious way to keep him starting over for each new game.
The reason I think it's not from the writers is because of the very odd way the Sinnoh League was handled, where they made it as obvious as humanly possible Ash was the second strongest there despite only make top 4 because of the seeding of the tournament.

But not the only way, as we saw with the Orange Islands and Battle Frontier. Narratively justifying Ash continuing his journey post league win is as easy as having him say "I want to keep on travelling and experiencing new things"; the idea of something greater post-league was introduced in DP and hasn't even been a thing since, so really shouldn't be a consideration.

As for the Sinnoh League itself, it's not sufficient evidence of a mandate as any oddities can be explained by poor planning on the writing team's behalf. Even if it was a mandate, conceiving a character with two unexplained legendary Pokemon was a rubbish idea. You'd think that if they knew Ash was going to lose from the beginning that they'd establish a worthy trainer to defeat him from the get-go, wouldn't you? Yet the dream killers have always been last minute introductions, which suggests to me the outcome of any league is decided late on in the series.

I suspect it wasn't planned from the start due to the lower battling focus--I could be wrong but advertising it as a comedy where the protagonist goes to school while planning to make it the one where he finally takes the big step as a battler would be a very strange move.

I highly doubt it was planned from the start. I don't know how far they go with planning out the series or when this decision could have realistically been made, but I don't think it would make much sense if they did plan this from the start. SM was pretty light hearted, more slice of life focused compared to other series and it wasn't really battle heavy.

Ash vs Kukui and Tapu Koko was mooted as early as the second episode. Tapu Koko was very clearly established as a significant obstacle for Ash to overcome, being the reason behind his decision to do the Trials and beating him twice. While it's unlikely they had all the fine details worked out, it seems to me they had SM's climatic battles in mind from the beginning.

Also, I think both of you are missing the point of the Alola League in the first place. It was never meant to be a competition to prove who was the "best", but a culmination of everyone's personal journeys and a display of how much they've grown over the course of the series. Kukui said it himself: the most important thing wasn't who became Champion, but people taking part and becoming one with their Pokemon. So it absolutely fits with the overall tone and themes established in SM from the very beginning. Nobody can say if they planned it out or not, but given Ash started not understanding what Trails and Z-Power even were, and ended by becoming "one" with the entire region to finally defeat Tapu Koko, I can say with some confidence the whole arc was coherent from back to front and not an abrupt change in tone.