Does Ash only take some of the leagues he goes super seriously?

[KrspaceT]

.....This was a perspective I encountered on the recently created TV tropes page for specific Pokemon series, specifically DP. Specifically this one under 'Knights of Cerbeurs'

• Paul is Ash's rival in the Sinnoh region, and the one who causes Ash and his Pokémon the most grief. He is the polar opposite of Ash in terms of ideals and methods, especially when it came to Chimchar, and his strength as a trainer enables him to give Ash his most devastating defeats in the entire series. Even Ash's personal rival, Gary Oak, was only a friendly Smug Snake compared to the soul-crushing battler that is Paul. It is because of Paul that Ash treats the Sinnoh League as something more than just a casual opportunity for the championship unlike the other Leagues he has partaken.

....Like I have no problem with the idea of Ash going 'there is always another chance another time' and all of that, but it is such a interesting interpretation of why he does or doesn't use his reserves. I mean to prove himself against Paul or Gary is more important than Morrison or Trip. Makes the 'Ash gets SERIOUS' crowds possibly more justified, though they will, of course, fail to handle it properly as they'll have him go off catching OU mons and making OU movesets instead of, IDK, just rematching a league with Charizard, Sceptile, Pikachu, Greninja, Infernape as a core of destruction or something that feels more on point with the idea.

Or is it just a trope entry and not all that perspective granting

 

[Daren]

Interesting line of discussion.

For what it's worth I lean on a Doylist interpretation; DP was the last series still linking itself strongly to the past and the Sinnoh league was their last chance to use his older party members in the same way they became prominent during the Battle Frontier.

But the Wattsonian idea Ash wanted to be very sure he got to face Paul is interesting, though I feel it could also be cynically said to mean he didn't have faith in his DP party reaching him on their own (probably not what the writers intended).

 

[KrspaceT]

Interesting line of discussion.

For what it's worth I lean on a Doylist interpretation; DP was the last series still linking itself strongly to the past and the Sinnoh league was their last chance to use his older party members in the same way they became prominent during the Battle Frontier.

But the Wattsonian idea Ash wanted to be very sure he got to face Paul is interesting, though I feel it could also be cynically said to mean he didn't have faith in his DP party reaching him on their own (probably not what the writers intended).

You could also argue that he saw Paul, Nando, Barry, and Conway as more dangerous rivals than Trip, Bianca, Stephan, Cameron, and Vergil but somehow that also feels....um.....

 

[Greninjaman]

It's because Paul challenged Ash's way of doing things when it comes to Pokémon training. The others never pushed Ash the way Paul did.
Paul was more antagonistic to Ash in comparison to Gary. Yeah, Gary said mean things to/about Ash, but Gary never challenged Ash's way of doing things. Remember the Lake acuity battle? It was not just a battle between two very skilled trainers; it was Paul's training method VS Ash's training method.

 

[ii kanji]

Doylist...Wattsonian

Ooof I just fell into an hour-long TV Tropes hole thanks to this, I've never heard these words before and I LOVE them!!

Yeah I don't know that I have anything to add to this discussion, except that this is a very interesting viewpoint so thanks for raising!

 

[KyseL]

Paul was more antagonistic to Ash in comparison to Gary

I honestly feel it was the other way around. Ash was antagonistic to Paul, while the latter was mostly apathetic. Gary was actually antagonistic, he teased Ash constantly, and attacked his character at any given opportunity (as far as I remember). When I watched DP recently it honestly felt like if Paul stopped seeing Ash at any point in the series he wouldn't even notice, at least in the first half.

 

[Srebak]

I don’t know if this is the best place for this, but, I still can’t get over how wrong it is that people keep saying that Paul’s method of Pokémon training is fine too because it gets results in order to justify Ash losing to him, that just feels wrong to me

 

[DynoStretch]

Glad someone made this topic, this has been something I've been meaning to get around to talking about.

I feel like a lot of Ash's problems when it comes to his league losses are due to his own stubborn philosophies.

His 'fresh start' practice is fine in theory, forcing himself to start with just Pikachu each region so he can catch lots of new Pokemon and learn how they work. Though this also means he'll be limited in his options come league time, and I'm positive most trainers there aren't doing these self-imposed challenges and coming with their long time trained teams (I also think his fresh-start attitude puts him in danger while traveling too often, but it doesn't have anything to do with league battles so I won't go into that here).

And now we have the PWT, where he's taking on very high-ranked trainers literally all over the world, and I think this is one of the few competitions where Ash really shouldn't be limiting himself. Meta-wise, the need for him to advertise current-gen Pokemon doesn't apply in this situation, since he's getting non-Galar stuff like Dragonite and Gengar, and Goh is serving to advertise all the marketable stuff like starters. There's nothing holding him back from bringing in Charizard, Glalie, Infernape, Krookodile or Sceptile to have some really thrilling rank battles. (though lately it seems the writers don't really seem to care about Ash's goal all that much and would rather just advertise the Pokemon Go! mobile game through their new character and have everyone make stupid meme faces, but I digress...)

Speaking of limited options, in recent regions he doesn't make much effort, if any at all, to catch new Pokemon for his team, he feels like he has to befriend them first, which is a noble but honestly stupid attitude. It tends to result in him having very limited team rosters, and in recent leagues he just barely makes the six-member requirement, and even then it's only because Pokemon he's previously released come back to assist him (like Goodra or Naganadel). And that in fact goes against his fresh start attitude to begin with, like what's the point of him starting fresh if he makes little effort to actually catch anything so he can learn about all the new Pokemon?

I suppose another reason he also does so poorly in leagues is due to bad coincidence, he always seems to catch Pokemon that have some anti-evolution deficiency (which is always weird when we see every league participant with fully evolved Pokemon), or some circumstance will force Ash to release the very few Pokemon he does manage to catch and raise. Even if the released Pokemon do come back for the league, that's still extended amounts of time where he's not able to train them personally because they're off doing something else, which again goes against his 'fresh start' philosophy.

Now one aspect to consider about his attitude is that he doesn't really care whether he wins or loses anymore, he just wants to have good battles against strong trainers regardless of how badly he gets crushed. Again, that's a noble way of looking at things as a character, though from a viewer perspective it kind of kills any enthusiasm people have to want to see him win. What's the point of following his journey and rooting for him to win in the end if he himself doesn't care one way or the other?

So to answer your question, I do think Ash takes the leagues seriously, but he tries way too hard in all the wrong ways.

 

[Yami-no-Game]

I always thought that Ash did take the Sinnoh League more seriously because Paul was there, but I don't like the argument that if Ash used his reserve Pokemon he would do better in all the Leagues after that point. Maybe if this were real life and not a scripted show I would agree but he would still lose in Unova and Kalos no matter what because that was what the writing staff wanted. No amount of reserves would have changed that result.

 

[KrspaceT]

I don’t know if this is the best place for this, but, I still can’t get over how wrong it is that people keep saying that Paul’s method of Pokémon training is fine too because it gets results in order to justify Ash losing to him, that just feels wrong to me

....Hey it happens with more stuff in fanfiction than I care to think about. Some people are obsessed with 'The Ends' regardless of the means to get there.

Glad someone made this topic, this has been something I've been meaning to get around to talking about.

I feel like a lot of Ash's problems when it comes to his league losses are due to his own stubborn philosophies.

His 'fresh start' practice is fine in theory, forcing himself to start with just Pikachu each region so he can catch lots of new Pokemon and learn how they work. Though this also means he'll be limited in his options come league time, and I'm positive most trainers there aren't doing these self-imposed challenges and coming with their long time trained teams (I also think his fresh-start attitude puts him in danger while traveling too often, but it doesn't have anything to do with league battles so I won't go into that here).

And now we have the PWT, where he's taking on very high-ranked trainers literally all over the world, and I think this is one of the few competitions where Ash really shouldn't be limiting himself. Meta-wise, the need for him to advertise current-gen Pokemon doesn't apply in this situation, since he's getting non-Galar stuff like Dragonite and Gengar, and Goh is serving to advertise all the marketable stuff like starters. There's nothing holding him back from bringing in Charizard, Glalie, Infernape, Krookodile or Sceptile to have some really thrilling rank battles. (though lately it seems the writers don't really seem to care about Ash's goal all that much and would rather just advertise the Pokemon Go! mobile game through their new character and have everyone make stupid meme faces, but I digress...)

Speaking of limited options, in recent regions he doesn't make much effort, if any at all, to catch new Pokemon for his team, he feels like he has to befriend them first, which is a noble but honestly stupid attitude. It tends to result in him having very limited team rosters, and in recent leagues he just barely makes the six-member requirement, and even then it's only because Pokemon he's previously released come back to assist him (like Goodra or Naganadel). And that in fact goes against his fresh start attitude to begin with, like what's the point of him starting fresh if he makes little effort to actually catch anything so he can learn about all the new Pokemon?

I suppose another reason he also does so poorly in leagues is due to bad coincidence, he always seems to catch Pokemon that have some anti-evolution deficiency (which is always weird when we see every league participant with fully evolved Pokemon), or some circumstance will force Ash to release the very few Pokemon he does manage to catch and raise. Even if the released Pokemon do come back for the league, that's still extended amounts of time where he's not able to train them personally because they're off doing something else, which again goes against his 'fresh start' philosophy.

Now one aspect to consider about his attitude is that he doesn't really care whether he wins or loses anymore, he just wants to have good battles against strong trainers regardless of how badly he gets crushed. Again, that's a noble way of looking at things as a character, though from a viewer perspective it kind of kills any enthusiasm people have to want to see him win. What's the point of following his journey and rooting for him to win in the end if he himself doesn't care one way or the other?

So to answer your question, I do think Ash takes the leagues seriously, but he tries way too hard in all the wrong ways.

On a few of these I have noticed that SM Ash and Journeys Ash has mentioned interest in catching more Pokemon. For example Ash was interested in mon catching during the Kanto Bugs, Desert Resort, and Fossil episodes. Heck Goh even wanted Ash to win a Hitmonlee to match his Hitmonchan.

So a ton of the problems comes from the writers going NOPE than Ash himself, or even Goh himself.

Speaking of the reset....seeing Johto again via Suede I am reminded of why overlap can stunt team growth but the way that the previous two gens did lag on the mons is a problem. He keeps having solid 4 mon cores (Pikachu with Greninja/Talonflame/Hawlucha and Rowlet/Lycanroc/Torracatt) that create hiccups and....yeah.....not sure what is with the writers the last two times. Give Journeys some credit, I don't think it'll quite repeat such a problem.....I hope

I always thought that Ash did take the Sinnoh League more seriously because Paul was there, but I don't like the argument that if Ash used his reserve Pokemon he would do better in all the Leagues after that point. Maybe if this were real life and not a scripted show I would agree but he would still lose in Unova and Kalos no matter what because that was what the writing staff wanted. No amount of reserves would have changed that result.

Some people, like Ash and Lelouch, have their greatest enemy being their creator.

 

[Srebak]

Honestly, from what I have seen, Ash takes every single league challenge that he’s in seriously enough, as he sees them as a chance to prove both his and his Pokémon’s mettle. But as far as the problems that were mentioned go, well; for one thing Ash and most of his Pokémon are all about pushing themselves to their absolute limits and seeing just what they are able to do in even the most inopportune situations

 

[game3524]

I honestly feel it was the other way around. Ash was antagonistic to Paul, while the latter was mostly apathetic. Gary was actually antagonistic, he teased Ash constantly, and attacked his character at any given opportunity (as far as I remember). When I watched DP recently it honestly felt like if Paul stopped seeing Ash at any point in the series he wouldn't even notice, at least in the first half.

Pretty much.

Paul didn't even start to take Ash seriously until he learned that he had defeated Brandon.

 

[Bulbabrain]

So, while I was on a walk, I’ve was thinking about this thread, and the differences between some of the regions and battles. While I wouldn’t say Ash doesn’t take every battle seriously, there are moments where ash leans in more on unpredictability and complicated plans vs simpler ones. Unova, in comparison, featured Ash with a more simpler plans, there weren’t really a lot of Thunder Armor/Frubble body doubles/Counter Shield moments. Even some of his problem solving moments were more simpler. When hearing about a lost Pokémon in unova, he used his pokedex to help identify a shadowy figure on tape by looking up information, more or less doing a Wikipedia search. In contrast, take his approach with the beached wailmer in sinnoh. He organized several Pokémon in making an ice beam sled and a ramp out of old toys for wailer to ride out on while luxio and Pikachu hit the ramp with iron tail. That isn’t to say ash couldn’t come up with complicated plans in unova, having oshawott strike the wall to get his scalchop back, for example, it’s just that there were regions, or more accurately, moments where he had a better mindset for complicated plans. Unova, for example, was his vacation for a little while after all. Like @Srebak said, ash takes all his battles seriously, it’s the dominance simple plans vs complicated plans that seems to separate the regions.
Side note, I’m not sure if I would say unova was bad because ash had a more simpler mindset, mostly because I don’t think unova was bad, but that’s an argument for another day.

 

[jbmasta]

It's because Paul challenged Ash's way of doing things when it comes to Pokémon training. The others never pushed Ash the way Paul did.
Paul was more antagonistic to Ash in comparison to Gary. Yeah, Gary said mean things to/about Ash, but Gary never challenged Ash's way of doing things. Remember the Lake acuity battle? It was not just a battle between two very skilled trainers; it was Paul's training method VS Ash's training method.

Gary and Ash had two battles total in the original series, one of which was the one that ended their rivalry. Gary didn’t have as much plot focus as Paul did. Another angle is that Paul fixates on his losses while Ash always looks forward. Sometimes he has a period of reflection but he always bounces back despite the odds and history. Paul does suffer some humiliating losses, like Cynthia early on and Brandon around the time of his Lake Acuity battle against Ash, but unlike Ash he doesn’t use these losses as a motivation as much as Ash would and has in the case of Brandon. Ash lost twice but that didn’t stop his drive to win. If anything it stoked it.