Do you like TPCI's decision to split the Original Series into Pokémon the Series: The Beginning and Pokémon the Series: Gold and Silver?

[Eitarou]

Now that I think of it, perhaps TPCI should rebrand the older seasons to have the saga's name on it, like they've been doing since DP.
Something like "Pokémon GS: The Johto Journeys" or "Pokémon RS: Advanced Battle". That would make them easier to understand.

Also, Battle Frontier should've had "Advanced" in the title to begin with, but there's nothing to be done about it now.

They probably removed it to avoid redundancy with Advanced Battle.

 

[Gabo2oo]

They probably removed it to avoid redundancy with Advanced Battle.

"Advanced Frontier" for example, or something different altogether.
There was no real need to use the full terminology, in the same way we didn't get "Team Galactic Battles" or "Ultra Beast Adventures"

 

[Ricbolog]

Now that I think of it, perhaps TPCI should rebrand the older seasons to have the saga's name on it, like they've been doing since DP.
Something like "Pokémon GS: The Johto Journeys" or "Pokémon RS: Advanced Battle". That would make them easier to understand.

Also, Battle Frontier should've had "Advanced" in the title to begin with, but there's nothing to be done about it now.

Maybe it would have been better if they just called it "Pokémon The Series: Advanced Generation", keeping its japanese name. As the series takes place in both Hoenn and Kanto, "Pokémon The Series: Ruby and Sapphire" sounds a bit Hoenn-centric. I don't know how this would have worked in foreign versions though.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Just here to say, "No," they only made it more obvious that the Series is an advertisement for the games of that generation.

"Master Quest" sounds so much cooler & better than "The Series: Gold and Silver Season 3," but then I've had a negative opinion of the dub in general for longer than I had a positive one (in a constant descent since XY started, JN being the nadir IMO, and the initial 4Kids -> TPCi transition period during the late TAJ dub period was also VERY jarring and heartbreaking in 2007-2008 before they also got canned as a child too so...?).

"Advanced" as well >>> "The Series: Ruby and Sapphire," same with "Battle Frontier" too which they themselves came up with when they first took over.
Actually, 4Kids had this right the first time, in Japanese Gen 3 is called "Advanced Generation" modeled after the GBA...just, why change this?

Also, "Indigo League" is a closer match to "Sekiei League" than "The Series: The Beginning." BLEGH, soulless marketing change here.

 

[snowmint]

I'm assuming you wished 4kids never lost the license...

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

I'm assuming you wished 4kids never lost the license...

Certainly, though I'd still wish they had kept more of the OST in mid Johto to the end of their tenure w/the Anime they still managed to avoid TPCi's all time lows from BWS16-JN on that (and the first 2/3 of AG under them was better than BF on OST kept too), not done the stupid sandwich edits (WHY?!), etc. as we'd have retained the original English VA mains (as well as Stuart Zagnit as Professor Oak), the script writing would've been done by more than one person with unfettered license to make Team Rocket into poets by mid DP in the dub (Dogasu's DP153 Review goes into this), the intros wouldn't have shrunk from 45 sec-1 min to 28-30 sec for the remainder of the Series' run in English, and we'd have had (to my shock) more references to God and death had they held on.

Letting their license lapse without renewing it in time, so that TPCi swooped in and top to bottom overhauled everything randomly in late AG had negative effects to me all around in time, and likely tanked the company as well too as basically from 2007-2011 all they had was their usual dubbing "style" with Yu-Gi-Oh which they treated/treat much worse than they did Pokemon as well as TMNT 2003, which waned by 2009. Sarah Natochenny oddly has been doing work for the same studio that did the Pokemon dub in 1998-2006 before she took over as the lead, 4KMedia/Konami, and is Aura in the Yu-Gi-Oh Arc V dub though so there's that?

 

[snowmint]

Its just tedious to see the same response every where here.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Its just tedious to see the same response every where here.

Fair enough.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Honestly, knowing what we know about 4Kids now, I think losing the Pokemon license was pretty inevitable for them. At the time, it was shocking and out of nowhere, but given that TPCI, then PUSA, was created to take control of the franchise away from third party companies, I think it makes more sense in retrospect, at least from a business perspective. If 4Kids wasn't honoring their agreed payment to Japanese companies over the Pokemon license like what they were doing with the Yu-Gi-Oh! license, which I believe was the case, then it was just a matter of time before they lost the license. This doesn't justify everything TPCI did since they could have made better decisions and made the transition more smoothly. But at the same time, despite how I prefer the 4Kids dub cast myself, I have a hard time imagining 4Kids being able to dub the series for much longer than they actually did.

As for the topic at hand, I still stand by that it's an understandable decision marketing wise. They want to make it clearer which generation the older series are promoting, which might be helpful for new fans in particular, but I still prefer referring to the Japanese titles for the most part. I have been using both Journeys and Horizons instead, but that's because they flow better than saying PM 2019 or PM 2023. I honestly kind of miss the subtitle for the Japanese series. I can understand why neither series had Sword/Shield or Scarlet/Violet as part of their title since they aren't exclusively focused on promoting those games, but it made it easier to make each series distinct instead of calling everything Pocket Monsters.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Honestly, knowing what we know about 4Kids now, I think losing the Pokemon license was pretty inevitable for them. At the time, it was shocking and out of nowhere, but given that TPCI, then PUSA, was created to take control of the franchise away from third party companies, I think it makes more sense in retrospect, at least from a business perspective. If 4Kids wasn't honoring their agreed payment to Japanese companies over the Pokemon license like what they were doing with the Yu-Gi-Oh! license, which I believe was the case, then it was just a matter of time before they lost the license. This doesn't justify everything TPCI did since they could have made better decisions and made the transition more smoothly. But at the same time, despite how I prefer the 4Kids dub cast myself, I have a hard time imagining 4Kids being able to dub the series for much longer than they actually did.

As for the topic at hand, I still stand by that it's an understandable decision marketing wise. They want to make it clearer which generation the older series are promoting, which might be helpful for new fans in particular, but I still prefer referring to the Japanese titles for the most part. I have been using both Journeys and Horizons instead, but that's because they flow better than saying PM 2019 or PM 2023. I honestly kind of miss the subtitle for the Japanese series. I can understand why neither series had Sword/Shield or Scarlet/Violet as part of their title since they aren't exclusively focused on promoting those games, but it made it easier to make each series distinct instead of calling everything Pocket Monsters.

I think what should have happened ideally is that TPCi could've taken the rights back after Season 9, but should've let 4Kids finish the Battle Frontier Season for the sake of continuity thus letting them complete what they began in Season 6, and still decided to retain the VAs and writers like Konami did w/4KMedia for Yu-Gi-Oh-- which still sadly despite having strong VA talent has the same problems it has always had under their wing, I find it amazing that's the Series they were allowed to continue with longer when they've always treated it much worse in comparison (they were however I'll concede right to get rid of the censorship team/staff because that stuff was/is always wholly unnecessary & pointless, unfortunate that said we have been returning to that style of editing since Sun & Moon began in earnest- we all thought that was permanently gone after 4Kids lost the rights, but in hindsight, the Ash crucifixion OLM ordered edit by TPCi in Season 19 was a harbringer of what was to make its unwelcome return by Season 20's dub).

It's logical enough in division, but it feels like it loses the spirit of what was there earlier, personally.

 

[Charmander4]

The TCG going from Wizards of the Coast to PUSA was the writing on the wall.

That said, TPCI is still awful and should’ve kept the old cast in the first place and should still bring them back. I don’t care about Michele Knotz’ and Sarah Natochenny’s “feelings”. They should’ve never been involved in the first place.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

The TCG going from Wizards of the Coast to PUSA was the writing on the wall.

That said, TPCI is still awful and should’ve kept the old cast and should still bring them back. I don’t care about Michele Knotz’ and Sarah Natochenny’s “feelings”. They should’ve never been involved in the first place.

Yup, it was sadly a matter of time, just was absolutely godawful they had to interject midway into the Battle Frontier Saga like that. The 4Kids cast had already started doing that saga towards the end of Advanced Battle and Taylor’s only symbol she got to voice Ash winning was the first one (she was just 4 episodes away from Greta, tragic). 4Kids was crazy not to keep tabs on their by far best dubbed property, losing Pokémon I argue would prove to be their downfall long term like TAJ’s just two years later (One Piece tarnished whatever good will they had prior). Who I feel awful for is that production team, the dub had much more passion behind it with them at the helm and energy tbh.

I think Natochenny does care about the role, but god, TPCi should have kept the 4Kids VAs and writers: they were genuinely talented people for Pokémon, scrapping them was a big mistake since (IMO) they were actually very good at handling those aspects. The worst thing TPCi has done since then with the dub IMO is hiring Goldfarb after BW, firing Loeffler (what happened to him, anyway, we never found out why he or Corallo left?), and then bringing back 4Kids style censorship in SM onward.

 

[R.O.B.]

The fact we were just about 4 episodes away from Volt Tackle...

About the topic, no, I don't think tacking on the game makes to the anime series is very creative, anyone could have come up with "Pokemon The Series Diamond and Pearl", for example. I don't love the Indigo League and Adventures in the Orange Islands subtitles either but they're still better than "Pokemon The Series The Beginning".

 

[snowmint]

I think what should have happened ideally is that TPCi could've taken the rights back after Season 9, but should've let 4Kids finish the Battle Frontier Season for the sake of continuity thus letting them complete what they began in Season 6, and still decided to retain the VAs and writers like Konami did w/4KMedia for Yu-Gi-Oh-- which still sadly despite having strong VA talent has the same problems it has always had under their wing, I find it amazing that's the Series they were allowed to continue with longer when they've always treated it much worse in comparison (they were however I'll concede right to get rid of the censorship team/staff because that stuff was/is always wholly unnecessary & pointless, unfortunate that said we have been returning to that style of editing since Sun & Moon began in earnest- we all thought that was permanently gone after 4Kids lost the rights, but in hindsight, the Ash crucifixion OLM ordered edit by TPCi in Season 19 was a harbringer of what was to make its unwelcome return by Season 20's dub).

It's logical enough in division, but it feels like it loses the spirit of what was there earlier, personally.

No kids show dub in US is going to air a crucification looking scene, but it's a odd cause it wasn't that "overt" like scenes in 4kids yugioh kaiba on tab, 4kids one piece zolos on the pike and same thing with 4kids ultimate muscle with Roxanne on the pike and 4kids Ultraman Tiga with Rena on a tab. Geez what is it with Japan and these crucification scenes...

 

[Hidden Mew]

The TCG going from Wizards of the Coast to PUSA was the writing on the wall.

That said, TPCI is still awful and should’ve kept the old cast in the first place and should still bring them back. I don’t care about Michele Knotz’ and Sarah Natochenny’s “feelings”. They should’ve never been involved in the first place.

Regardless of how anyone feels about the TPCI cast, they are still people, so they do have feelings. Sarah Natochenny has been voice Ash even longer than Veronica Taylor did, so there's no doubt in my mind that she cares about the role. I don't like how the dub cast switch happened either, but I know plenty of fans have grown up with the TPCI cast and have the same kind nostalgic fondness for their performances like older fans do with the 4Kids dub cast.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Regardless of how anyone feels about the TPCI cast, they are still people, so they do have feelings. Sarah Natochenny has been voice Ash even longer than Veronica Taylor did, so there's no doubt in my mind that she cares about the role. I don't like how the dub cast switch happened either, but I know plenty of fans have grown up with the TPCI cast and have the same kind nostalgic fondness for their performances like older fans do with the 4Kids dub cast.

I wonder if Horizons will reset the dub “clean” so to speak and it’ll be dubbed more like the other LA projects are, or it’ll go with the same formula TPCi has been doing post-4Kids overall. I really, really hope they do the former, it's long past time to get out of the 1990s esque dubbing style, but they don't seem to want to change it here.

A pretty messed up situation, tbh, for both sides.

On the one hand, I could hardly blame Taylor etc. if they never want to return back to the franchise after the way they were replaced (pretty cruel stuff that happened, TAJ who ironically cast the dub under 4Kids too originally, did their old buddies a "solid" as TheCartoonGamer8000 on YouTube said....and backhandedly recast everyone) & we still live with the consequences of their cast change for close to two decades now: Original Ash voice actor for Pokémon opens up on being replaced for 'no reason'

"They replaced us, Pokémon USA replaced us after the eighth season. None of us had the choice to go on with the show after that. I know all of us would have,’ Veronica said, referring to the other voice actors in the cast who were also replaced after season eight."

"I think the hard part was that we all gave our 100% because we loved the show, we loved working on it and the people we worked with, all of that. And we had such a deep connection to it, so to just simply be replaced for no reason was quite heartless, really.’

Veronica continued, stating: ‘I guess that’s the biz,’ and so ‘there’s not much you can do.’

‘Business is business and I don’t know their reasons for replacing us. It certainly was hard to get past. I suppose it still is a little difficult, but I’m happy that Pokémon goes on and people continue to love it and that Pokémon has helped so many people through so many hard times, through so many good times, it’s been a way for people to find friends and really connect on many levels, so I’m very happy that it continues and I’m happy in my small part to still be a part of it.’"

However, since they DO bring back additional 4Kids VA side talent many times over save some like Maillard or Goede, one would think they would finally let bygones be bygones and bring back the old main 3 they seem “hostile” towards these days vs others in Horizons (Lillis has claimed they for some reason held a grudge against her like the others too, which is why she never returned after Season 11 w/Maylene).

I'll say this though: regardless of one's preferences/tastes in the VA realm, I do think some took it WAY too far at Sarah Natochenny etc as well. She claimed she had gotten death threats and creepy calls because of how severe the backlash was for years at the replacement (when the smart thing to do would've been to go after the company for it & ask that they return the OG cast etc., the fans were too young & too ignorant to figure that out, so...Knotz etc. took the brunt of the hatred at the time). The hatred was somewhat justified since TAJ/PUSA had unceremoniously dumped the cast & crew that had worked hard for 8 years at that point, but it was misdirected, and turned into abject cruelty from what I read on it.

"As a fan of the show, I understood that my portrayal had to be true to the role, but I never imagined that I would start receiving death threats saying that I 'took' what wasn’t rightfully mine, and if I didn’t give it back, I would get killed. There were petitions to get me fired, and confrontations at conventions. I was very much alone in this and felt awkward even mentioning it to friends.

It sent me down a dark hole for many years and led me to discover other career paths in the industry, for which I’m grateful. But if you think rejection is the worst thing you’ll experience as an actor, try getting the role and being told by fans that you’ve ruined their childhoods. Try getting creepy calls and emails with death threats."

Interview: Sarah Natochenny On Death Threats, Voicing Pokémon’s Ash Ketchum, And Fostering Kittens

In this interview, Sarah Natochenny opens up about her journey, from enduring sickening abuse by Pokémon fans to starring in hundreds of TV episodes and 14 movies, and becoming a cherished member o…

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It's a very sad situation, either way, the 4Kids/TAJ drama fallout also killed both companies in time, and they were the original English dubbers of Pokemon too. TPCi's reputation took a hit over time, too, for that (not that they, like 4Kids before them but they went defunct just 5 years later, seem to care much about it these days).

What I think they’ll do with Horizons is just cast LA VAs as the main leads (such as but not at all including Sheh as Liko, Saab as Friede, Berry as Roy etc), bring back the Farb (Ed) thus continuing to replace almost all the OST, and still censor things like they are again these days…but I’d like to be wrong. It’s a real chance to reset the whole dub, and fresh slate it.

No kids show dub in US is going to air a crucification looking scene, but it's a odd cause it wasn't that "overt" like scenes in 4kids yugioh kaiba on tab, 4kids one piece zolos on the pike and same thing with 4kids ultimate muscle with Roxanne on the pike and 4kids Ultraman Tiga with Rena on a tab. Geez what is it with Japan and these crucification scenes...

That’s true, but what came after that, was the real sad part there (the censorship basically started up again near the end of XY’s dub). TPCi eventually brought back the much maligned (correctly) 4Kids censorship en masse from Sun and Moon onward basically to the present day (that we’ve got stuff censored in Journeys and there even 4Kids and themselves didn’t censor prior like souls leaving bodies, Meowth drowning, and most recently, frozen Ash, ugh). I’m not sure why we are going back to that style of editing or censorship after all this time, shame, it was nice while it lasted from S9-18 w/o many edits. TPCi pretty much has done all the same things 4Kids was guilty of these days in some way, sadly.

 

[Nichole the Otter]

I get it was to try and differentiate the Kanto and Johto sagas, but I still just refer to them as the Original Series. I tend to use the Japanese terms when referring to each generation's saga of the anime, except for Journeys and Horizons because it's easier to say than Pokemon 2019 and Pokemon 2023 respectively.