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Esserise
Esserise
Yeah, I have to say that this curveball really made me more confident in your proposal of Kanto sequels this year. I don't see any reason why it couldn't have just been an Alola movie if we were going to get Stars.

I also agree on Brock and Misty. They're absence is pretty conspicuous, but it makes sense if they're going to ba aged up in the games. Naturally they'd want to show that off, as it'd be a stark difference and very attention-grabbing. Since they're not going to age Ash up several years, that necessitates a reboot if they want older Brock/Misty.

As for the new companions... eh. I suppose I could see them being from the games, as their designs do look rather more like game characters. But would they want to let the anime take the lead on that, as far as the reveal goes? Then again, Zygarde worked out alright.

I think it would make sense for the rival to have that Unown necklace if there's some Unown plot in the games. The movie may not have room for that though, so perhaps it just carried over with the design but without the corresponding plot significance? Or, maybe it's just an Easter egg. And isn't it odd that he has an Incineroar? I know the movie doesn't have to follow the games to the letter, obviously, but if he's the rival in the games, then one would expect him to have one of the Kanto Starters. Instead, he's going to be more closely associated with Incineroar. Curious.

What caught my eye the most was the old bearded man with Red's hat. Another Easter egg, maybe, but he seems more important, although design-wise, he feels less like a game character than the companions. If he IS in the games somehow... maybe he's Red's dad?

The thought that Lucario and Piplup are foreshadowing Sinnoh remakes is ludicrous. I can't fathom what I'll think if THAT is what this is all pointing toward. Surely they would set the games in, you know, Sinnoh? And not make it primarily about Pokémon that are from Gens 1, 2, and 7?
Silktree
Silktree
I think it would be refreshing if the player had a Kanto and a Johto starter, and the rival had one from Alola and another region (Kalos for symmetry?). Then that Piplup girl could represent Sinnoh, and yet another character (maybe Lillie, although I prefer Eevee for her) or two would take care of the remaining ones. Why not do something different for the anniversary theme? We'd still have Red, Blue, (Gold?) and Silver to showcase the remaining Kanto and Johto starters.

That guy looks like Red's grandfather, if anything.

By the way, Cilan and Iris were revealed for the anime first.
Silktree
Silktree
Note that so far the only confirmed characters from the original series are Ash, Team Rocket and Nurse Joy... Characters that were introduced in the anime rather than the games (letting the Red=Ash parallelism slide, given how far they've grown apart). What if the reason the trailer doesn't even show Erika (who is almost surely Ash's opponent in the gym) is that she is over 10 years older and we aren't supposed to know about it just yet?

They made most people expect a straight retelling for 4 months. Now most people are confused as to what the heck the movie has to do with any established canon. Wouldn't this marketing be brilliant if next month's game announcement made everything fall into place?

Of course, it would be so much easier if they let go of Ash (at least in kid form) for just one movie, but I guess they have to juggle between the anime's 20th anniversary and the target audience still being kids.
Silktree
Silktree
Between boring Stars speculation, rabid claims about DP remakes being advertised, and fans under 20 being elated about Brock and Misty seemingly being ditched in favor of nobodies... I think I need a serious time out from all forums.

I really hope that I'm right and a lot of people will have to eat crow next month. SM's announcement was delicious after the Z debacle, but this... has the potential to be far more satisfying.
Esserise
Esserise
Hm, that's an intriguing possibility. I wonder how the "cycle" would be determined, though, with so many characters involved.

Alternatively, what if we are able to obtain a Starter from every generation throughout the story? But to me that feels a bit overloaded. Maybe we get to choose one Starter out of *all* of them at the beginning?

I suppose he does look more like a grandfather. I was just assuming Red's dad to be, I don't know, 40 years old when Red started his journey, and threw ~20 onto that. But grandfather works just as well, perhaps even better. (It's almost like a reverse Benga situation; a sudden appearance by a previously unseen grandparent.)

Oh okay, I didn't know that about Cilan and Iris. Not a big deal, then. I guess that makes sense - people will react to the designs one way or the other regardless of which medium first shows them off. Besides, the nature of the games themselves will be a much bigger headline.

Yeah, I had the same thought about Team Rocket. Jessie and James almost certainly aren't going to be in any more games, so the movie would be free to use them in their usual roles. Honestly I just don't think anything else better explains Brock and Misty's absence. The Erika thing is very suspicious too.

Ash is something I just don't think they could get away from even if they wanted to. He's iconic, even more so than Red. Besides, this let them pull a bit of a stunt with the Ash/Ho-Oh connection. People have been waiting this long to see that thread finally get paid off, and frankly, I think this is probably the only way they could realistically do it. The main anime would probably have never dealt with it.

I would *love* for the announcement to come next month. This fandom is going in circles. Also, if the next games really are the Kanto sequels, I think that makes more sense than Stars. It still feels really early to me to be making SM redundant with which is essentially a better version of themselves. They're only six months old. The other third versions all gave their predecessors a berth of two *years*, even B2W2. I know their production has sped up a fair bit, but that's still stepping firmly on SM's toes. ORAS were - as Kanto sequels would be - at least a fundamentally different gaming experience.
Esserise
Esserise
I sympathize with the need for a break. It's why I've not been around much either. I'm really glad this trailer came along, but most people are going to keep spinning their wheels, I think,
Silktree
Silktree
>Hm, that's an intriguing possibility. I wonder how the "cycle" would be determined, though, with so many characters involved. Alternatively, what if we are able to obtain a Starter from every generation throughout the story? But to me that feels a bit overloaded. Maybe we get to choose one Starter out of *all* of them at the beginning?

I definitely think that the player should focus on Kanto and Johto. The other starters (barring Alola) can wait for the post-game just as was the case in HGSS and ORAS.

Here's a proposed cycle for the rivals:

Cross (main rival) uses the Alola starter strong against the player's Kanto starter. His Kalos starter is not dependent on the Johto starter, but rather is one of the two types not occupied by the Alola starter (to prevent Cross from using the same type twice if the player does).

The Hoenn-Sinnoh-Unova trio correspond to the player's Johto starter. Something like this would work: Johto<Hoenn<Sinnoh<Unova=Johto
Silktree
Silktree
By the way, they could make the Piplup girl... canonically associated with Piplup in the games. So what if it gets prioritized over the other two Sinnoh starters?

Same could happen for, say, Torchic and Snivy. But if gym leaders and Elite Four are fair game, then all 21 starter lines could be represented in a single playthrough if Game Freak wanted.
Silktree
Silktree
By the way, for once I think that the anime pairing Marshadow with Ho-Oh makes sense (I had it in mind for the 2018 movie). What if Marshadow is the reincarnation of a human warrior? Its lore could be addressed in Johto just fine, I think, even if it is from Alola (which we don't really know).

I forgot to tell you this, but I've been thinking for a while that Ho-Oh's role in the sequels could be fairly huge: What if the Pokemon that died in the GB/C world, and the people that died in the GBA/DS world, were given new life in the 3DS world by Ho-Oh (with the Unown and Suicune's help)? Obviously, very few of them would realize that, but some might (Professor Silktree for one). Wouldn't that make for a beautiful ending?

Have you watched Lost in its entirety? If so, then you should know... I honestly think that even the movie may very well be going for this approach in regard to Ash's inclusion in a new world. I don't expect the sequels' potentially death-heavy storyline to be adapted (not in this movie, anyway), but it would be immensely fitting for the anime's anniversary if it turned out that Ho-Oh gave Ash and Pikachu a literal restart with their past experiences somehow in tact in a dormant state (Ash seems more competent than he was in the original series, for one). Marshadow may be aware of this, hence it follows Ash to meet Ho-Oh.
Silktree
Silktree
Although it is sad to think that in Kanto and Johto's "good" universe, Kalos is the one that paid the price 3000 years ago just so that Eternal Floette and Mega Evolution(?) can exist... Oh well. Nothing to be done about XY's mishaps unless it turns out that SM and the sequels take place in yet another world...

Kalos in the older worlds could make for interesting fan fiction, but eh... I'd much rather write stories about Kanto and Johto's fates in those worlds. I am not afraid to admit my own bias, even though I think my speculation is relatively objective.
Esserise
Esserise
That cycle could work. But now that I'm thinking about it, I find it a bit odd that any of the Alola Starters would be involved at all, since they just got their own game.

I kind of like the idea of dispersing the Starters across the Gym Leaders and Elite Four. At the very least, it ensures some type diversity on their teams.

If all of the Starters were going to get some kind of representation, I wonder if that would be what convinces GF to give them all Mega Evolutions/Z-Moves/etc. Starters sell probably better than anything, and the fans generally seem to want this to happen.

Marshadow being a human warrior reincarnated is a really cool notion. It certainly looks like it could fit that bill. I actually wouldn't be surprised if it weren't natively from Alola - Magearna wasn't either.

> Wouldn't that make for a beautiful ending?

Artistically, yes. Though that's one hell of a population boom!

> Have you watched Lost in its entirety?

Never seen it, but I think I get what you're aiming at. I'm not so sure that the movie isn't simply a brazen reboot, but I must admit that I don't think something like what you're suggesting would be totally crazy. The games are already touching on the idea of inter-reality travelers. I recently wondered if the anime might head in that direction as well, and to what extent. If they did, I didn't think it would be verbatim with the Faller/Ultra Wormhole lore anyway.

> Although it is sad to think that in Kanto and Johto's "good" universe, Kalos is the one that paid the price 3000 years ago just so that Eternal Floette and Mega Evolution(?) can exist...

That's all AZ's fault anyway. Kalos's suffering is entirely on his hands. No one forced him to do what he did.

(Now, Mega Evolution's existence vis-a-vis the weapon is a slightly more interesting question to me. Obviously it can arise separately, by stones such as meteorites soaking up natural energy. The question in my mind is, how much did the weapon's detonation have to do with the overflow of natural energy in Hoenn, that first allowed Groudon and Kyogre to assume their Primal forms? It's implied that the meteors that fell during that time became Mega Stones. But it's also implied that their first battle occurred 3000 years ago, which doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. So my suspicion is that the weapon blast's impact was powerful enough to stir up the world's flow of energy, energizing Groudon and Kyogre more than they were on their own in the non-Mega universe. Because otherwise, I don't see why Mega Evolution wouldn't have just been discovered in RSE Hoenn. Why didn't that timeline's Groudon and Kyogre revert? I assume the natural energy wasn't there, but why would that be? The only thing I can think of that makes a difference is the weapon. Of course, there's also the issue of whether or not the meteors ever fell on RSE Hoenn at all. Deoxys's giant death meteor doesn't seem to have existed in that world, and I don't really buy the theory that it wouldn't really have destroyed the world and would have landed to become Birth Island instead, because that really undercuts the drama of the Delta Episode. Bah, the details of all this timeline business are such a mess. They couldn't have kept it simple...)

> Kalos in the older worlds could make for interesting fan fiction

It'd essentially be a blank slate. The war never happened at all, so presumably, AZ wasn't a factor (hooray!). But that consequently deletes all of Kalos's known history. Team Flare wouldn't exist, at least not as we know it. Even Sycamore would have to have a different field of study. With all of that, I don't see what the point would be. Kanto and Johto's histories would easily have more interesting things to say.

> even though I think my speculation is relatively objective.

I'd say that is very accurate.
Silktree
Silktree
Kalos being a blank slate is a good thing. :) But yeah, I don't see anyone seriously exploring it.

I think you're right about the Ultimate Weapon affecting natural energy and all that jazz. But I am not interested in the specifics since Game Freak didn't give me a reason to care. The best (only good?) thing about the last generation for me is Zinnia and I would be happy to see her make a cameo in the sequels.

Lost is available on Netflix. You must watch it!

>Artistically, yes. Though that's one hell of a population boom!

Not sure if that's a joke, but all I'm saying is that their counterparts in the 3DS world somehow have the same souls. And that in essence, the Unown may have created another world to "fix" the mistakes of the previous ones.
Esserise
Esserise
> Kalos being a blank slate is a good thing. :)

The sad thing is, I actually like quite a bit about Kalos, and I enjoy XY from a gameplay perspective. It's just... what the hell went wrong in their story department for that one installment? I know I always say that it doesn't matter in the long run, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a decent effort...

> I think you're right about the Ultimate Weapon affecting natural energy and all that jazz. But I am not interested in the specifics since Game Freak didn't give me a reason to care. The best (only good?) thing about the last generation for me is Zinnia and I would be happy to see her make a cameo in the sequels.

It's all a bunch of technobabble anyway. They hit on something fairly interesting with the life energy being used as a power source, and Zinnia got to question that, which I liked. But I still don't see why Mega Evolution needed as much of a justification as it got. Z-Moves didn't; their lore was much simpler, and more streamlined too.

I actually really like the ORAS lore - I'd always wished that Hoenn's story would get more development, because I never liked RSE. And what ORAS says would be perfect for me... if only XY weren't awkwardly standing in the middle of it. It would be nice if I *could* just say that XY is in some other universe, but subsequent games have made it clear that isn't the case. All I can do now is shrug and say oh well. On the bright side, it's just a lone blemish. The stories both before and *since* XY have been great (and I enjoyed the Looker Bureau, but that's not enough to save the XY story), and hopefully the next game continues that trend.

> Lost is available on Netflix. You must watch it!

As it happens, my girlfriend recently started watching it. I was into my own stuff at the time so I didn't bother, but I suppose that'd give me another reason to pick it up.

> Not sure if that's a joke, but all I'm saying is that their counterparts in the 3DS world somehow have the same souls. And that in essence, the Unown may have created another world to "fix" the mistakes of the previous ones.

Ah, that's a bit different than how I was reading it. I thought you meant that the people and Pokémon from the dead timelines would all be revived and teleported to the Megaverse.
Silktree
Silktree
>Ah, that's a bit different than how I was reading it. I thought you meant that the people and Pokémon from the dead timelines would all be revived and teleported to the Megaverse.

lol, no. If you watch all the way to the end of Lost's sixth season, you'll understand. But don't take this to mean that the show boils down to multiple timelines or an afterlife. That is very far from the truth, which sadly some casual viewers may not have understood. The last season is very underrated.
Silktree
Silktree
Okay, let's get down to business. I'm pretty confident about Kanto sequels being announced next month (hopefully by the 10th), but what worries me is if Johto will be included. They could take the easy way out and use Necrozma as a mascot and maybe recycle Alola for the post-game, which would honestly... suck. There is just no potential there; Necrozma isn't any more interesting than Zygarde ever was.

Generation II's prominence through Go and Ho-Oh makes me optimistic. I just don't want to be disappointed. By the way, if Johto -is- included, expect to see GSC re-released very soon (possibly right after the sequels' announcement for maximal hype).
Esserise
Esserise
> Lost

I'll give it a shot. I've always heard about its ending - I don't know what it involves, I'm just aware of its reputation for being confusing. But to me, that's always been sort of an invitation with things. It's the whole reason why I watched NGE.

> Sequels

Definitely. I won't be surprised if Necrozma plays some role, but they can do so much more with Johto. Even if the Sevii Islands aren't there, Johto is really all I ask, and yeah, fortunately the marketing has headed in that direction.

My ultimate worry is that it would *just* be Kanto, period. Not even an Alola post-game. The reason why I think this could happen is because of how small Alola was - it had fewer towns and routes than even Kanto. Hardware-wise, maybe Kanto is all they'd be able to fit on the 3DS?

That leads to my other question - do you still think it would be a 3DS/Switch dual-release, or have we changed gears to it being a last entry for the 3DS before the next generation goes onto the Switch?
Silktree
Silktree
I don't think you will be confused by the ending. I don't even remember the specifics of NGE; Lost is so much more elegant for anyone who pays attention. And it has amazing characters above all.

I think that a dual release is likely because the Eurogamer report should have -something- to do with reality (and it was really about the Switch first and foremost). Plus, Nintendo seem pretty confident about the Switch's sales this year.

The 3DS can definitely fit more than just Kanto (take a look at Yokai Watch 3 if you want to see how much content can be crammed into a 3DS cartridge). It's just a matter of Game Freak's willingness to go beyond the "necessities", and in this case comparisons to HGSS are inevitable.
Silktree
Silktree
Incidentally, HGSS did not take up a lot more space than Platinum did. I think the difference was about 20%.

Granted, Sinnoh is bigger than Alola, but the point is that a second region doesn't actually require twice the space. A lot of the games' assets will be reused (the Pokemon models are a huge chunk), which worked for HGSS pretty well. Plus, HGSS was a step up from Platinum in the quality of overworld graphics, whereas the SM quality is just fine (for a 3DS game).

Lastly, the maximum 3DS cartridge size is 8GB. SM only take up around 3.2GB, and I'm pretty sure that similarly designed games with both Kanto and Johto wouldn't go past 4GB (not that it matters).

The biggest 3DS game is Xenoblade Chronicles 3D (3.6GB). It would be cool to see the sequels at the top.
Esserise
Esserise
It's encouraging to hear that (both things, really).

I agree that most people would probably be asking "But HGSS had both...?" It'd be easy to view a Kanto-only game as inferior to HGSS even with Kanto being beefed up; Johto is right next door and there's no reason other than pure contrivance that should be keeping us from going there. It was forgivable with FRLG, but we've come a long way since then.

Isn't the reason why 3DS games tend to stay around the 3GB or less area because of time it would take to download the catridge-less versions? That's something I've heard, but never bothered to look into.
Silktree
Silktree
I doubt that downloads have anything to do with content. It is not as if most 3DS are lacking... They just don't need that much space. Anyway, with the Switch upon us, file sizes are going to get big.

The main reason FRLG lacked Johto is that Game Freak definitely wanted remakes to become a trend... It was in their interest to make fans hungry for Johto. This time around? Do we really need to be arguing in 2023 if we're getting Johto sequels or BW remakes? And wouldn't the former include Kanto anyway?
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