Bulbagarden

Well, are they even going for multiple timelines, or is it just meant to be a straight-up (but awkward as hell) reboot?

I mean... admittedly, even before ORAS, I was strongly entertaining the idea that XY were a break in continuity from the previous games, and part of the reason why I liked that idea was because it made the continuity less weighty after the previous entries (little did I know what was around the corner...). The reboot-ness of it made things seem a bit neater to me. But that doesn't really have the same effect in the anime, where the main character is a static cipher and each region soft-reboots things anyway.

It's probably a straight-up reboot. They won't have a Zinnia-type character explain how both worlds exist, lol.

The reason I am so upset is that this is their idea of commemorating the bloody 20th anniversary! They rebooted the show without concluding Ash's story in any shape or form. Kalos was just another region for him. Would it have been too much for the 20th anniversary movie to provide that closure even with SM using a different Ash? This music sums up how I feel about the anime staff:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdSIg5Ivd_I&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=1

Also, I must voice my exasperation at the denial going on in the anime community. At the same time, we have people spouting crappy ideas in the sequel thread!

I am so done with this fandom after the sequels are released. Hell, if I am wrong about the next announcement, I won't have any reason to post anymore.

Also, if they were going to reboot the series, then why the hell not have Ash win the XY League? I thought it made sense when he was just going to move on and keep moseying about his business for the rest of eternity as usual. But if that was the end, then... goddamn. Way to insult the kid. And you're right, that's no way to go about the 20th anniversary. Saying that the 20 years you're celebrating essentially never happened? (And denying them a satisfying conclusion while you're at it?)

Though I must confess that I'm not sure I quite follow regarding that music, as it's unfamiliar to me.

On your second two points - yeah, it's frustrating. Probably much more so for you than for me since you've put a lot more thought and consideration into these things than I have, but I too am finding it exhausting. This fandom is bewilderingly resistant to new ideas, and this whole situation feels like a remake of the "Z or Gen 7" debates from 2015, and nobody wanted to go through that again.

It's a shame. Kanto sequels are a really unique idea that would be another true innovation for the series, and only like five people seem to be seriously considering the possibility. (I honestly don't know what I'll do if the sequels prediction is wrong. I don't see anything else they could release that would be satisfying. Stars would be useless to me, and I really think it would be the wrong decision to remake Sinnoh right now.)

I am sorry to hear that the fandom has pushed you to that point, but I can easily see why.

Regarding the music: It's from Danganronpa, where a bear called Monokuma puts a bunch of teenagers through hell. Whenever a murder takes place, Monokuma pits them against each other in a class trial meant to determine the identity of the killer.

https://youtu.be/K8iCij4PSrM?t=448

The analogy is that the staff killed the show and now the fans are debating about it, lol.

It turns out that Cross is trying to steal the Rainbow Wing from alt!Ash. This makes me doubt that he's a game character. By the way, Incineroar looks vile... So much for people passing it off as a Tiger Mask proxy.

Makoto and Shoji are still possible. The old guy is almost certainly not from the games.

One thing that I'm glad about is this: www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/5d496d/new_translation_of_takeshi_shudos_idea_for_final/

It's nice that the original main writer had a concrete ending in mind, which was certainly not banal... And it clicks so well with things that we did get to see:

http://forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/how-did-the-original-ashs-story-end.223110/page-2#post-6161932

I wonder what sort of childhood Ash really had. I assume that Misty and Brock were real. Perhaps they... played Pokemon video games?

Woah. That seems so out-there, but there's a real poignance to it. I'm baffled by the comments in that thread saying that it would have rendered everything in the anime meaningless - for one thing, no it wouldn't have, but moreover, they say that as if the existing anime actually has any meaningful point. Ash's adventures as we see them already don't have much of a point to them; an ending like Shudo's would at least recalibrate our perception to see an applicable meaning within them.

Were the early days of the anime full of these interesting "beta-esque," if you will, ideas? Wasn't the third movie originally going to be about dinosaurs? That's pretty wild to think about.

The dinosaur idea doesn't appeal to me. I mean, Movie 3 is the best one in my opinion, so I'm glad Shudo's initial idea was rejected.

Shudo's novelization has some interesting "out there" tidbits: http://satoshipediaeng.altervista.org/pocket-monsters-the-animation-the-secrets-of-the-pokemon-anime/

Going back to Chieko:

"Should Pokemon do things such as protect and save people, even if they aren't their trainers?"

Interesting, isn't it? When have the games ever made a point that Pokemon are supposed to protect/save people? It ties into my theory quite well, but I am not sure I was conscious of that!

Basically, Chieko may be saying that what Neo Celebi is trying to do - saving Pokemon at the expense of people - is wrong. People are not to blame for the plague, and cooperation is the key to stopping it.

The general apathy towards my story ideas in the sequel thread is a bit soul-crushing, but hardly surprising.

Even a Skype friend of mine called the Neo Celebi outline "alright", lol. I guess it's too elaborate?

> I guess it's too elaborate?

Perhaps. It's certainly more complex and more high-concept than basically anything the series has ever done (that's basically *my* only lasting reservation with it, is that I don't know if Game Freak would be willing to go for something like that when they seem, unfortunately, to prefer plot developments that they can explain in a couple of sentences). But I also think it may be a bit difficult to get traction on without any visible material to work with. You've seen how well this fandom does with incorporeal concepts versus things they can actually see and grasp easily - it's why people fixate on Piplup and Lucario being in the movie and "proving" Sinnoh remakes. The possibility that Brock and Misty's conspicuous replacement could be because they were redesigned in their Gym Leader roles doesn't even occur to most.

On top of that, Kanto sequels, while becoming a bit more popular among fans that I've seen, are still by far a fringe idea, and since they'd actually be something entirely *new*, we don't know what to expect like we would with remakes or whatever else.

I guess that a somewhat cheap way my idea could work in a real game is if the fates of the other timelines were left vague, with only some hints as to what happened (hopefully something better than "Anabel was involved with UBs, so they must have destroyed her world" line of thinking, lol). So the Faller Chieko would only have some of her memories left in tact?

I'd be satisfied if we got access to something more explicit in the post-game, along the lines of Sea Mauville. Speaking of Anabel, it would be cool if she remembered something really bad happening in her old world. Maybe she was saved by Silktree and/or Mohn? Likewise, the ORAS Looker might be from Chieko's world.

Just a reminder that you haven't replied to my last post.

The combination of the New 2DS and the optimistic prediction for 3DS software sales makes me quite confident that the Stars rumor is false.

I stumbled upon the OST of a game called Chrono Cross, and there are two themes that made me think of my sequel ideas.

Mending Mewtwo's heart after understanding its past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV-FvxoR1PQ&index=2&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA

Understanding the backstory of Neo Celebi, Chieko and Silktree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J46RY4PU8a8&index=1&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA

I hope Game Freak can up their music work.

Some more thoughts on Neo Celebi and the three timelines:

1. Neo Celebi can't time travel. That explains how Chieko managed to capture it, as well as its inability to see that a good future can exist without its intervention.
2. Its powers are memory alteration and crossing between universes (unlike Hoopa that summons things from all over the place).
3. During the Crystal Ilex Forest event, Neo Celebi briefly communicated with Celebi and asked it to send it to the era of the Brass Tower incident. Celebi agreed because it pitied it and didn't really know what was going on. (After this, Celebi time traveled to the future, thereby surviving the plague and eventually becoming Neo Celebi.)
4. Something happens before the Brass Tower incident that ends up releasing Neo Celebi. I am not sure about the story exactly, but it should involve the war over the Whirl Island.
5. Neo Celebi aggravates the war, leading to the Brass Tower incident.
6. Knowing that there is nothing else to do in the original timeline, whose fate is sealed, Neo Celebi crosses over to the HGSS universe. The Brass Tower incident still happens there.
7. After about 160 years elapse, Neo Celebi has gained the support of enough Pokemon to carry out its plan. Humans in Kanto and Johto are wiped out and the plague never affects Pokemon.
8. The SM universe mirrors the above, but the difference lies in what the humans do. The two Fallers (Chieko and Silktree) play a key role in this, but so do the player and (to a lesser extent) Lillie, who gain Mewtwo's trust.
9. Era variants showing up in the present are Celebi's doing rather than Neo Celebi's. They are separate from the brainwashed Pokemon.

Yeah, sorry, went on another impromptu hiatus, and my interests have strayed from Pokémon a bit lately (just waiting on some news to rectify that).

Getting back to this:

> I guess that a somewhat cheap way my idea could work in a real game is if the fates of the other timelines were left vague, with only some hints as to what happened

I wouldn't love that, but between the bleakness of the idea itself and GF's tendency toward more laconic exposition, I suspect it'd be the probable result.

Then again, I just now went and tried to map out the basic plot structure of the backstory that's needed for Neo Celebi (because my own memory is shot and I keep forgetting details), and it's simpler than it looks. The complicated part is the origin of it in the GB/GBC timeline, but even that works sufficiently as just a medium-sized exposition sequence if they want it to be. Though I do see the catch of it being based on a limited, Japan-only distribution from 20 years ago. But I guess that's more in Easter egg territory - the plot can be explained and can make sense without having seen that event, but seeing it does add to the impact for anybody who has enough interest/awareness of the series's history.

> The combination of the New 2DS and the optimistic prediction for 3DS software sales makes me quite confident that the Stars rumor is false.

Definitely leaning that way myself. My wallet can hopefully breathe a sigh of relief.

> 1. Neo Celebi can't time travel. That explains how Chieko managed to capture it, as well as its inability to see that a good future can exist without its intervention.

> 2. Its powers are memory alteration and crossing between universes (unlike Hoopa that summons things from all over the place).

I quite like these. It makes it seem like its power to time-travel hasn't *vanished*, but rather, mutated. Instead of going forward or backward, it can go sideways in time. And memory alteration plays well to its Psychic type, and when you think about it, signifies its overall plan (changing history) - altering memories is essentially changing history, but localized onto an individual.

Adding in the details of the Brass Tower and when exactly Celebi left does help to get a firmer grasp on the story. But I have some questions as a result:

- Why did Neo Celebi ask to be sent to that time period? Was it aware of the war/fire beforehand and specifically wanted to exploit it?

- I can't remember if you discussed this before (again, my memory, sorry), but if Neo Celebi succeeded in the GBA/DS timeline, what brings its attention to the 3DS timeline? Why does it care, if it has already won somewhere? Is it intended to wipe out humanity in *every* timeline, and the Megaverse just happens to be next on the list?

- So, the original plague began in Guyana, and was limited to that area, right? Since we're dealing with three timelines, what are the permutations here? Does the Guyana plague happen in each one? I would assume so, since we've mentioned it being the basis of Mohn's research and Silktree's involvement. On from that, does the Lusamine plague happen in each universe? If not, what is the origin of each universe's plagues?

- How does Neo Celebi change the plague to wipe out humans in the GBA/DS world? Once more, I'm sorry if you've mentioned this previously; sifting through four or five threads is a bit difficult and it's been a while since I thought about all this.

- Lastly, if Neo Celebi is indirectly responsible for the Brass Tower fire, does this mean that the Brass Tower never burned in the 3DS world? That could be a really cool way of giving Ecruteak a Mauville-esque upgrade. Showing both towers surviving to the modern day in all their splendor.