Here's an appropriate theme for the unlocking of the GS Ball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeM9GjwPXOk&index=24&list=PLj-ru-1cx_tlMEbtwQ1V4-ATAkfXNHoyD
Bulbagarden
Silktree
Holy crap... I've just realized that my Neo Celebi ideas have quite a bit in common with how Movie 18 handled Hoopa: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Hoopa_(anime)#History
Basically, Hoopa Unbound got sealed, but not quite. It was split into the Confined Form and the shadow of the original form. The latter was pissed off due to being sealed in the Prison Bottle.
Once released, the shadow summons a bunch of legendaries that act out according to its will... for whatever reason. By the end of the movie the two Hoopa merge again and the good Hoopa can freely change its form.
So you could think of it as a reverse transformation of what I am suggesting for Celebi, except without the interesting backstory and time travel complexity... Hoopa was just sealed due to being a prankster, lol.
And suffice to say that I don't think Neo Celebi should ever revert. Pacified, yes, but it should remain separate from Celebi.
Basically, Hoopa Unbound got sealed, but not quite. It was split into the Confined Form and the shadow of the original form. The latter was pissed off due to being sealed in the Prison Bottle.
Once released, the shadow summons a bunch of legendaries that act out according to its will... for whatever reason. By the end of the movie the two Hoopa merge again and the good Hoopa can freely change its form.
So you could think of it as a reverse transformation of what I am suggesting for Celebi, except without the interesting backstory and time travel complexity... Hoopa was just sealed due to being a prankster, lol.
And suffice to say that I don't think Neo Celebi should ever revert. Pacified, yes, but it should remain separate from Celebi.
Esserise
> You know, after how grim AZ's flashback was, I don't think anything in my theory is really too dark for this series.
Fair point.
> Don't forget that it would be easy enough to include the GS Ball event in the localized Crystal re-release. The event itself was translated, except for the News Machine interaction with Chieko, which was DLC to begin with. So yes, we could see the event for ourselves.
I did consider that. And while it would be easy to include, I have to wonder if they would actually bother. Not everybody got a Mew distribution for RBY so I think they don't seem to care too much at least on the grounds of making all of that generation's Pokémon available (unless they assumed people would exploit the Mew glitch, but they've never treated stuff like that as official). Although on the other hand, there's no in-game event that revolves around Mew like there is for Celebi. I could see it going either way.
> Celebi should definitely be aware of what happened in that period, and Neo Celebi obviously has its memories. As for what exactly happened... The GS Ball may have been the reason for the war. What if two regions fought over who gets to unlock the GS Ball? I'll need to think about this some more.
The question that occurs to me in that case is, if Neo Celebi wanted to get sent back to that era... what was its plan from that point onward? It wouldn't have been able to guarantee that it would be released, let alone so soon upon arrival.
> As for your points about the timelines... I should be clear about this: There aren't any major deviations between the timelines as far as Kanto and Johto are concerned. The Mega Evolution shtick only affected Kalos and Hoenn to any noticeable degree. So Neo Celebi doesn't actually discern between the GBA/DS and 3DS worlds... It ends up in both, pretty much like how most events happen the same way in paired versions. The actual deviation will be a result of the humans' roles.
I'm still not sure I'm seeing all the threads here.
In Timeline 1, Celebi goes through that loop where it jumps forward in time post-plague, gets caught by Chieko, sent back, and then sent back further to become Neo Celebi, while the Celebi that sent it back jumps forward in time post-plague to begin its iteration of the loop. That much I get, no problem.
So Neo Celebi is released in historic Johto, where it sparks the war. Eventually it decides that Timeline 1 is a lost cause, and moves on to Timeline 2. In Timeline 2, it spends over a century gathering Pokémon and turns them against the humans, wiping them out so that the plague (brought by Timeline 2's Lusamine, correct?) cannot spread.
So it has basically won, at that point. It has altered history to create a safe world for Pokémon, devoid of humans.
But then we have Timeline 3, which is where I lose track, but only because I'm not sure as to which angle we're coming in at. Is Timeline 3's Neo Celebi the same one from Timelines 1 and 2, having crossed over once again for some reason? Or is "Timeline 3" more properly rendered as Timeline 4, where there was originally a Timeline 3 that resembled the events of the GB/GBC timeline, with the Celebi/GS Ball loop intact, and ended with Pokémon becoming extinct - and from that, a second Neo Celebi is created, which goes on to menace Timeline 4 - that is, the 3DS games?
I'm just not sure from your wording (specifically, "It ends up in both, pretty much like how most events happen the same way in paired versions.") which of the two scenarios is being suggested.
> And suffice to say that I don't think Neo Celebi should ever revert. Pacified, yes, but it should remain separate from Celebi.
I would agree with that. Having them reunite would be rather hokey.
Fair point.
> Don't forget that it would be easy enough to include the GS Ball event in the localized Crystal re-release. The event itself was translated, except for the News Machine interaction with Chieko, which was DLC to begin with. So yes, we could see the event for ourselves.
I did consider that. And while it would be easy to include, I have to wonder if they would actually bother. Not everybody got a Mew distribution for RBY so I think they don't seem to care too much at least on the grounds of making all of that generation's Pokémon available (unless they assumed people would exploit the Mew glitch, but they've never treated stuff like that as official). Although on the other hand, there's no in-game event that revolves around Mew like there is for Celebi. I could see it going either way.
> Celebi should definitely be aware of what happened in that period, and Neo Celebi obviously has its memories. As for what exactly happened... The GS Ball may have been the reason for the war. What if two regions fought over who gets to unlock the GS Ball? I'll need to think about this some more.
The question that occurs to me in that case is, if Neo Celebi wanted to get sent back to that era... what was its plan from that point onward? It wouldn't have been able to guarantee that it would be released, let alone so soon upon arrival.
> As for your points about the timelines... I should be clear about this: There aren't any major deviations between the timelines as far as Kanto and Johto are concerned. The Mega Evolution shtick only affected Kalos and Hoenn to any noticeable degree. So Neo Celebi doesn't actually discern between the GBA/DS and 3DS worlds... It ends up in both, pretty much like how most events happen the same way in paired versions. The actual deviation will be a result of the humans' roles.
I'm still not sure I'm seeing all the threads here.
In Timeline 1, Celebi goes through that loop where it jumps forward in time post-plague, gets caught by Chieko, sent back, and then sent back further to become Neo Celebi, while the Celebi that sent it back jumps forward in time post-plague to begin its iteration of the loop. That much I get, no problem.
So Neo Celebi is released in historic Johto, where it sparks the war. Eventually it decides that Timeline 1 is a lost cause, and moves on to Timeline 2. In Timeline 2, it spends over a century gathering Pokémon and turns them against the humans, wiping them out so that the plague (brought by Timeline 2's Lusamine, correct?) cannot spread.
So it has basically won, at that point. It has altered history to create a safe world for Pokémon, devoid of humans.
But then we have Timeline 3, which is where I lose track, but only because I'm not sure as to which angle we're coming in at. Is Timeline 3's Neo Celebi the same one from Timelines 1 and 2, having crossed over once again for some reason? Or is "Timeline 3" more properly rendered as Timeline 4, where there was originally a Timeline 3 that resembled the events of the GB/GBC timeline, with the Celebi/GS Ball loop intact, and ended with Pokémon becoming extinct - and from that, a second Neo Celebi is created, which goes on to menace Timeline 4 - that is, the 3DS games?
I'm just not sure from your wording (specifically, "It ends up in both, pretty much like how most events happen the same way in paired versions.") which of the two scenarios is being suggested.
> And suffice to say that I don't think Neo Celebi should ever revert. Pacified, yes, but it should remain separate from Celebi.
I would agree with that. Having them reunite would be rather hokey.
Silktree
None of your two interpretations is correct. Neo Celebi only crosses over once. The GBA/DS and 3DS worlds are eerily similar in the context of Kanto and Johto... Crossing over to all of them at the same time is akin to being present in two paired worlds (paired versions). It can't tell the differences between them.
What makes the timelines truly different is the Unown taking Silktree from the 3DS world to the other one's future where all humans have died. Add that to taking Chieko from the GB/GBC world's future and you get quite the butterfly effect in the 3DS world.
The Unown are basically playing at Neo Celebi's own game. They're better at it.
>The question that occurs to me in that case is, if Neo Celebi wanted to get sent back to that era... what was its plan from that point onward? It wouldn't have been able to guarantee that it would be released, let alone so soon upon arrival.
You're forgetting that it has Celebi's memories, so it would know all about the war and the GS Ball being unlocked! It's a consistent time loop.
You might be wondering why Celebi would go along with a plan involving a really bad event. The reason for that is that it doesn't understand the full circumstances... That the Pokemon contained in the ball made the war worse.
What makes the timelines truly different is the Unown taking Silktree from the 3DS world to the other one's future where all humans have died. Add that to taking Chieko from the GB/GBC world's future and you get quite the butterfly effect in the 3DS world.
The Unown are basically playing at Neo Celebi's own game. They're better at it.
>The question that occurs to me in that case is, if Neo Celebi wanted to get sent back to that era... what was its plan from that point onward? It wouldn't have been able to guarantee that it would be released, let alone so soon upon arrival.
You're forgetting that it has Celebi's memories, so it would know all about the war and the GS Ball being unlocked! It's a consistent time loop.
You might be wondering why Celebi would go along with a plan involving a really bad event. The reason for that is that it doesn't understand the full circumstances... That the Pokemon contained in the ball made the war worse.
Silktree
Have you been to the Stars thread recently?
http://forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/pokemon-stars-discussion-thread-speculation.219921/page-134#post-6175215
The wait isn't long now. :-)
http://forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/pokemon-stars-discussion-thread-speculation.219921/page-134#post-6175215
The wait isn't long now. :-)
Esserise
> None of your two interpretations is correct. Neo Celebi only crosses over once. The GBA/DS and 3DS worlds are eerily similar in the context of Kanto and Johto... Crossing over to all of them at the same time is akin to being present in two paired worlds (paired versions). It can't tell the differences between them.
Wait so it's in two places at once? Sorry if that seems like a stupid question, but I'm having trouble getting my head around this particular aspect. Usually I don't have a problem with multiple timelines and stuff, so I don't know why this one bit is proving hard for me to grasp.
> The wait isn't long now.
I'm very slightly hesitant to get excited - on the first page of that thread, somebody mentions this same thing happening once before, but with a Direct not coming up until a month later. Is the pattern otherwise consistent enough for that to have been a one-off? Although I suppose it makes more sense to do a big announcement this month, what with E3 around the corner next month.
Wait so it's in two places at once? Sorry if that seems like a stupid question, but I'm having trouble getting my head around this particular aspect. Usually I don't have a problem with multiple timelines and stuff, so I don't know why this one bit is proving hard for me to grasp.
> The wait isn't long now.
I'm very slightly hesitant to get excited - on the first page of that thread, somebody mentions this same thing happening once before, but with a Direct not coming up until a month later. Is the pattern otherwise consistent enough for that to have been a one-off? Although I suppose it makes more sense to do a big announcement this month, what with E3 around the corner next month.
Silktree
Except for that one time, it only took a week.
And I understand your confusion... Yes, Neo Celebi is in two universes at once, just like the other characters... Or rather, there are parallel beings that might as well be one and the same. It is only when someone (Silktree and Chieko) does a profoundly different action that the timelines can be considered distinct with different outcomes.
Neo Celebi gets played by the Unown.
And I understand your confusion... Yes, Neo Celebi is in two universes at once, just like the other characters... Or rather, there are parallel beings that might as well be one and the same. It is only when someone (Silktree and Chieko) does a profoundly different action that the timelines can be considered distinct with different outcomes.
Neo Celebi gets played by the Unown.
Silktree
This theme represents "getting closer to the Unown": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GveSKpeanh8&index=2&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA
Esserise
> Except for that one time, it only took a week.
Okay good, that's more encouraging.
> And I understand your confusion... Yes, Neo Celebi is in two universes at once, just like the other characters... Or rather, there are parallel beings that might as well be one and the same. It is only when someone (Silktree and Chieko) does a profoundly different action that the timelines can be considered distinct with different outcomes.
Ohhhhhhh, so is it like... well, I guess a simple and immediate example would be the Mega Evolution split? As in, the timelines diverge because of - if I'm reading you right - the Unown maneuvering Silktree and Chieko, and so we consequently end up with one timeline in which Neo Celebi succeeds (the GBA/DS timeline) and one in which it will fail (the 3DS timeline)? To put it another way, is this like a big Y shape, where the vertical line is the GB/GBC games, and then the two prongs spring from that?
(I will listen to these songs you're posting, by the way, I just can't do it at work which is when I'm usually on here the most.)
Okay good, that's more encouraging.
> And I understand your confusion... Yes, Neo Celebi is in two universes at once, just like the other characters... Or rather, there are parallel beings that might as well be one and the same. It is only when someone (Silktree and Chieko) does a profoundly different action that the timelines can be considered distinct with different outcomes.
Ohhhhhhh, so is it like... well, I guess a simple and immediate example would be the Mega Evolution split? As in, the timelines diverge because of - if I'm reading you right - the Unown maneuvering Silktree and Chieko, and so we consequently end up with one timeline in which Neo Celebi succeeds (the GBA/DS timeline) and one in which it will fail (the 3DS timeline)? To put it another way, is this like a big Y shape, where the vertical line is the GB/GBC games, and then the two prongs spring from that?
(I will listen to these songs you're posting, by the way, I just can't do it at work which is when I'm usually on here the most.)
Silktree
Not so much a Y as a... I'll draw it for you.
Silktree
But this drawing doesn't get my point across, which is that the divergence between GBA/DS and 3DS/Switch is minimal until the Unown interfere during the sequels.
Esserise
That's close enough. I get it now.
Silktree
I can't believe you thought I might be a girl, lol.
Esserise
I was about 95% certain you were a guy, but you can never be too careful so I opted not to presume.
Silktree
I would make a pretty badass girl if I do say so myself.
Silktree
The song that describes me as a girl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pajo2lmiDRI&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=20
Silktree
That moment when you're about to find out if you're getting what might be the best game ever, or just a fucking third version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbDl_-GYvGE&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=1
That moment when your hopes have been crushed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Nb8hlTPIY&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=2
That moment when you get exactly what you want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc1xTLMXbQI&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=24
Pokemon is rather unhealthy for me, lol. It is why I want this to be the last year I have to deal with speculation.
That moment when your hopes have been crushed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Nb8hlTPIY&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=2
That moment when you get exactly what you want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc1xTLMXbQI&list=LLHntxX9BJlcT3XczoB3QMWA&index=24
Pokemon is rather unhealthy for me, lol. It is why I want this to be the last year I have to deal with speculation.
Silktree
I get the first comment on my storyline ideas, and it is about as dismal as possible: http://forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/kanto-johto-sequels.170126/page-38#post-6181270
lol, I am so done with the fandom after this year.
lol, I am so done with the fandom after this year.
>Though I do see the catch of it being based on a limited, Japan-only distribution from 20 years ago. But I guess that's more in Easter egg territory - the plot can be explained and can make sense without having seen that event, but seeing it does add to the impact for anybody who has enough interest/awareness of the series's history.
Don't forget that it would be easy enough to include the GS Ball event in the localized Crystal re-release. The event itself was translated, except for the News Machine interaction with Chieko, which was DLC to begin with. So yes, we could see the event for ourselves.
Either way, Chieko's flashback would explain it sufficiently.
>- Why did Neo Celebi ask to be sent to that time period? Was it aware of the war/fire beforehand and specifically wanted to exploit it?
Celebi should definitely be aware of what happened in that period, and Neo Celebi obviously has its memories. As for what exactly happened... The GS Ball may have been the reason for the war. What if two regions fought over who gets to unlock the GS Ball? I'll need to think about this some more.
As for your points about the timelines... I should be clear about this: There aren't any major deviations between the timelines as far as Kanto and Johto are concerned. The Mega Evolution shtick only affected Kalos and Hoenn to any noticeable degree. So Neo Celebi doesn't actually discern between the GBA/DS and 3DS worlds... It ends up in both, pretty much like how most events happen the same way in paired versions. The actual deviation will be a result of the humans' roles.
Put another way, to Neo Celebi there is no difference between those two timelines (it can only detect changes in the period it is in), but to Silktree there very much is because he is actively trying to undo what happened in the bad one.
> How does Neo Celebi change the plague to wipe out humans in the GBA/DS world?
It will pretty much braindwash all the wild Pokemon in Kanto and Johto to do its bidding, which means wiping out humans. With them out of the picture, the disease can't spread to Pokemon.
>That could be a really cool way of giving Ecruteak a Mauville-esque upgrade. Showing both towers surviving to the modern day in all their splendor.
HGSS foreshadowed the Brass Tower being rebuilt, anyway.