16 Year Old Girl from Steubenville, Ohio Raped After Becoming Unconscious

[Fig]

And yes, I know, the lot of you are out there thinking "I'd never do this". And it's true. But believe me, ten, twenty years from now you will look back on your teenage years and there will be things you did that you hope nobody ever bring up again. Because your judgement will have grown sounder then, your mind more developped.

I'm sorry, but it seems a bit of a reach to describe raping someone and then bragging about it as just a "stupid teenage mistake." It just seems to trivialize what a huge and awful thing rape is.

There's no justification or rationalization for rape, no matter situation or age. period.

It's not a justification or rationalization; it remain a horrible crime.

But that does not alter the fact that what a person is, and will do, as a teenager, and what they are, and will do, as adults, are two entirely different things. People grow up in those years. They gain perspective. They change altogether. You should punish them for what they do, yes, but that punishment should account for the fact that they're not as ready to be responsible for their actions as others, and it should account for the fact that they WILL grow up.

And I'm sorry, but the notion that "This can't just be a teenage mistake" is risible, Jabber. Teenage mistakes don't stop at little things. Teenage mistake is a whole wide category of things people do because grasping the notion of responsibility for your own actions take time, and of how your actions impact others and cause them harm and pain take time. That's what teenage mistakes are all about.

Here, yes, they harmed someone., They harmed someone a lot. And they deserve punished for it. But even so, you still cannot pretend they were at adult-levvels of understandign of how what they did harmed the girl, because having a hard time relating to the harm you cause others" is one of the most fundamental aspects of teenage attitude.

 

[LadySasaki]

Jenny Trout has a really interesting article about this on her blog. It's also attracted a lot of comments and sparked a lot of discussion.

What concerns me is one thing Jenny mentions about victim blaming and how lot of the commentors agreed, being all like 'if I want to dress in a short skirt and go out and get drunk, I should be able to without fear of being raped!' Now of course victim blaming is bad and it is never the victim's fault if they get raped. What they were wearing shouldn't even be an issue, and anyone who uses the 'she dressed like a slut and was drunk so she was asking for it' defense...well, they're assholes.

This said, I fear that some people are confusing theory and reality, and blurring the lines between 'it's your fault you got raped' and 'please have some common sense'.

Let's say that a young girl goes out one night to a bar in what she knows is a rough part of town. She has no friends with her, and no rape alarm, and she gets so drunk that she can barely stand. If she is grabbed on her way out, taken down a dark alley and raped, is the rape her fault? Of course not. Was she inviting it? Not in the slightest. But even pretending for a moment that there was no bad consequence, was putting herself in a situation where she is in an unknown place, surrounded by strangers, and too disoriented to make intelligent choices a foolish thing to do? Yes. Just as much as a young man who takes a stroll into a bad neighborhood wearing a nice suit, a Rolex, and counting his money in an obvious way. Is this man doing anything wrong? No. Are both she and he perfectly within their rights, and should they feel safe to do what they did? Yes. But would you want someone you care about to do it...or would you advise against it, because you know it's potentially dangerous?

In a perfect world of course you can and should be able to do the 2 above examples without fear. But unfortunately we live in the real world where, all gender issues aside, crime is a thing that happens. There are nasty people out there; not just rapists, but muggers, pedophiles and murderers. Don't make it easier for them by not protecting yourself wherever possible. If you want to go out and get absolutely obliterated, ensure that someone trustworthy knows where you're going and that you'll be able to get a ride home. I know common sense will, tragically, only take us so far - you can take all the precautions in the world and still be attacked in the street. But the least we can do is encourage our children, our friends, and ourselves, to be a little more safe in their actions.

Of course what I've just said does not apply even in the slightest to Jenny Trout's situation described in her post, or this poor girl's in the news story; it goes without saying that if you're being plied with alcohol or drugs in a comfortable situation with people you believe you can trust - like an adult family friend or your circle of peers - then the blame goes to the perpetrator who was not only disgusting enough to violate you, but diabolical enough to manipulate you into a false sense of security first, which of course implies that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

My heart goes out to any victims who have suffered rape in any of its forms, and I only hope that in my lifetime we can see an end to victim blaming, and a change from 'girls, don't get raped' to 'boys, don't rape'.

Just my 2 cents on the matter...

 

[Almonds]

What has been done cannot be undone. The consequences are theirs to take, and what treatment from the society they will later get as adults - that is also theirs to take. They chose to rape someone - they chose to take 'rapists' as their name, and nothing in the world will allow them to take that permament sticker off. The responsibilities are fully theirs, and no matter how much remorse they might feel later on - time will never turn back
@Evil Figment; I thought even children knew it was wrong to rape people? Or am I mistaken? Young children know that rape is wrong, and those teens did that, knowing rape is wrong. I cannot see that as a teen mistake, and I'm afraid views on them will never change once people learn they raped someone as a teen. How many people would view rape as a mere teen mistake that can be taken lightly and waved away?

 

[Fig]

You've never done something you knew was wrong?

It's one thing to know (that is, to have been told) somethign is wrong. It'S a whole, whole, whole, whole other thing to understand the impact of doing that thing, and thus to really *grasp* that you shouldn't do it; to integrate and understand that knowledge, and act accordingly.

 

[Almonds]

You've never done something you knew was wrong?

It's one thing to know (that is, to have been told) somethign is wrong. It'S a whole, whole, whole, whole other thing to understand the impact of doing that thing, and thus to really *grasp* that you shouldn't do it; to integrate and understand that knowledge, and act accordingly.

So you're saying teens actually need to commit it and be thrown in prison to fully understand and *grasp* and learn that rape/murder/other crimes is wrong....?

-.- That is just utter nonsense. You don't necessarily shove your hand in fire and burn your fingers to learn fire is hot. You don't eat mud to see if it's chocolate. You just *know* what you shouldn't do. You don't rape people to learn that rape is wrong.

 

[Fig]

Of course it's nonsense, because itS' the words you are putting into my mouth. Not what I said. Honesty, please.

I said "Knowing somethign is wrong isn't the same as understanding why it's wrong". And I said that understanding why something is wrong is a far more effective reason not to do it than just knowing it's wrong.

You don't need to actually do it to understand why not to. But (when it's wrong because of what it does to others) you need to be able to relate to others, and that's one ability teenagers are abyssymal at (and studies show this: they're worst than either kids or adults at empathizing with their fellow men)

That teenagers are as good at not doing wrong as adult remain a moronic fantasy of the eye-for-an-eye sort.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

This said, I fear that some people are confusing theory and reality, and blurring the lines between 'it's your fault you got raped' and 'please have some common sense'.

I think the reason this kind of advice tends to upset a lot of people is that here we have a crime perpetrated overwhelmingly by men against women; men who are able to do it because they have power, be it physical or psychological, over their victims. And what is the best advice that we, as a society, can do to counter this? To tell women "Don't wear a short skirt and don't get drunk! It's your responsibility to prevent rapes!"

Of course, this advice is, at its best, highly situational. Most rapes don't occur at times or places where either of these factors would be relevant. The advice offers a false sense of security to some: "I don't get drunk or dress like that so I'm safe!" And, as we have seen in this very case, it's used to stigmatize victims. "She got drunk! She didn't follow the rules, so she had it coming!" Note that a lot of the comments of this nature came from girls of around the same age as the victim. There's a certain sense of self-reassurance going on here; the commenter essentially asserting that it would never happen to them; they are sensible and how stupid would you have to be to let something like this happen to yourself? Because the awful truth is that this could happen to anyone, and we as a species can't deal with that. We have to work out some kind of magic "system" for avoiding the horrors we see on the news every day.

The reason that this advice gets labeled as victim-blaming is because it essentially is. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes still good advice, but it says something pretty terrible about society when the best we can do to prevent rape is to advise women to make themselves less tempting targets.

I do feel a bit of sympathy for these kids. Not because they'r efootball players; because they're teenagers.

I think there's more to this than dumb teenagers being dumb. I think their status as celebrated football players actually contributed to this mess. They were treated like the gods of this town. Their status has clearly allowed them to get away with stuff before, perhaps in much smaller ways than this, but it reinforced the notion in their minds that they were untouchable and that they didn't need to fear consequences. It would be tough for anyone to maintain a healthy sense of perspective under those circumstances. As malleable teenagers, they got sucked in completely.

That's why they were so bewildered in the courtroom. You weren't seeing remorse because I don't think either one fully realizes what they did was morally wrong. They were crying because their insulated world had been punctured and suddenly, for the first time, they were being punished for treating someone like crap, rather than it being a huge, hilarious joke. And I'm sure it all felt very unfair and arbitrary to them.

Even the town is still stuck in this illusion, weeping for their fallen gods and wishing death upon the one girl who is somehow responsible for all of this and wouldn't just go along with it all like everyone else. The rage you see from these people is so frothing and unfocused. They're just as confused as their idiot gods are, and just as convinced that there was no crime here, just gods doing what gods are entitled to do.

 

[みさあき]

The reason that this advice gets labeled as victim-blaming is because it essentially is. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes still good advice, but it says something pretty terrible about society when the best we can do to prevent rape is to advise women to make themselves less tempting targets.

Don't know if I'll be hated for this one, but I kinda beg to differ. I mean, when a woman wears something revealing and gets unwanted attention... then I am not really going to feel bad for them. Because as kids, we had it beaten in our heads (well, the ones who were raised conservative much like myself) that what we wear can either send a right or wrong message. Wearing something revealing and (and or add that with being drunk) can send the wrong message. Which is why men in prison alot of times refrain from having their pants down to their butts.

I'm not saying it's the victim's fault because rape is a horrible crime. I'm really not. But I have my opinions.

 

[Tophat Dragoneye]

That's why they were so bewildered in the courtroom. You weren't seeing remorse because I don't think either one fully realizes what they did was morally wrong. They were crying because their insulated world had been punctured and suddenly, for the first time, they were being punished for treating someone like crap, rather than it being a huge, hilarious joke. And I'm sure it all felt very unfair and arbitrary to them.

Even the town is still stuck in this illusion, weeping for their fallen gods and wishing death upon the one girl who is somehow responsible for all of this and wouldn't just go along with it all like everyone else. The rage you see from these people is so frothing and unfocused. They're just as confused as their idiot gods are, and just as convinced that there was no crime here, just gods doing what gods are entitled to do.

Mankind at its finest...

Personally, I have little sympathy for those individuals. Their hands have tainted another person's life with psychological scars for the rest of her life. As such, they need to be held responsible for this. "Godhood" or not.

Speaking of godhood, what you've said, Bikini Miltank, made me think that there really needs to be done something about this whole worshiping football players, baseball players and everything in between as gods. They're humans. Humans makes mistakes, sometimes small, sometimes big, and sometimes downright stupid, like this case in my opinion.

 

[Bikini Miltank]

I mean, when a woman wears something revealing and gets unwanted attention... then I am not really going to feel bad for them.

I'm not saying it's the victim's fault because rape is a horrible crime. I'm really not. But I have my opinions.

So let me get this straight.
You think that dressing/acting a particular way doesn't make it the victim's fault.
But if the victim dressed/acted that way, you won't feel sorry for them, even though you think it wasn't their fault.

Then why don't you feel sorry for them? Does dressing a certain way mean that they deserved what happened to them?

 

[みさあき]

So let me get this straight.
You think that dressing/acting a particular way doesn't make it the victim's fault.
But if the victim dressed/acted that way, you won't feel sorry for them, even though you think it wasn't their fault.

Then why don't you feel sorry for them? Does dressing a certain way mean that they deserved what happened to them?

Let me rephrase, if they ware raped or tortured, then I have sympathy. This person, I have sympathy for.

 

[Shinobu]

Let me rephrase, if they ware raped or tortured, then I have sympathy. This person, I have sympathy for.

But that sympathy doesn't extend to harassment... you should really rethink that view. In reality dressing conservatively doesn't protect anyone from harassment.

But unfortunately we live in the real world where, all gender issues aside, crime is a thing that happens. There are nasty people out there; not just rapists, but muggers, pedophiles and murderers. Don't make it easier for them by not protecting yourself wherever possible. If you want to go out and get absolutely obliterated, ensure that someone trustworthy knows where you're going and that you'll be able to get a ride home. I know common sense will, tragically, only take us so far - you can take all the precautions in the world and still be attacked in the street. But the least we can do is encourage our children, our friends, and ourselves, to be a little more safe in their actions.

Of course what I've just said does not apply even in the slightest to Jenny Trout's situation described in her post, or this poor girl's in the news story; it goes without saying that if you're being plied with alcohol or drugs in a comfortable situation with people you believe you can trust - like an adult family friend or your circle of peers - then the blame goes to the perpetrator who was not only disgusting enough to violate you, but diabolical enough to manipulate you into a false sense of security first, which of course implies that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

The problem here is that most rape survivors know their rapists. Protecting yourself entails assuming that everyone you know is a potential predator. This is one of the reasons why most advice about how to protect oneself against sexual assault isn't useful.

 

[Beck]

I won't delve too far into the conversation, but I do agree with Figgy.

Is rape ever excusable? No, rape is never excusable. But I do feel for all of the victims: the girl who was raped, her relatives, and even the young men found guilty of rape. They are, if even indirectly, victims of their own wrong-doings and misjudgment. I'm apathetic for them all. The young woman for more obvious reasons, and the young men for wasted potential. Were their actions morally and legally wrong? Absolutely. But do not pretend that they're some evil, heartless beings who deserve all of the hate they're getting. I'm not excusing their behaviour - as they deserve the consequences in place for their actions - but let's look at both sides of the coin.

I also think that although rape happens every day without the integration of narcotics, the abuse of alcohol in this scenario is also to blame. Was alcohol the sole determinant? No, of course not, and it never is. But it needs to be considered nonetheless. 16 year-olds should not have possession of alcohol and other narcotics; the parents should also be held responsible.

 

[LadySasaki]

Protecting yourself entails assuming that everyone you know is a potential predator. This is one of the reasons why most advice about how to protect oneself against sexual assault isn't useful.

But no, it doesn't. It's this kind of faulty thinking that a) causes paranoia to the point where women start believing that all men are scary rapists and b) enables some of the more militant feminists (and nobody get on my case about calling feminists 'feminazis' because I'm a feminist, I just believe a small group take it too far) to shriek 'how dare you victim blame!' when all a lot of people are doing is offering some common sense.

There are two different situations here: one is sexual assault from somebody you know, in which case no, as I stated in my post, you can't really take preventative measures to protect from that (depending on the context, of course) because you're probably not expecting it from someone you know and trust.

The other situation is sexual assault from a stranger, which you have a betterchance of preventing (again depending very heavily on context, but it is applicable in the example I gave) if you simply follow some basic laws of common sense which apply to any human being - not just female - who doesn't want to end up dead in a gutter after a night out. I am not saying that you can prevent all cases of assault in any of its forms (of course you can't) and I would never say it is the victim's fault that it happened, but I am saying that maybe calling a sober friend for a ride home rather than staggering down a back alley, telling someone where you're going if you're going out alone, or perhaps carrying some pepper spray in your bag if you know you're going to be headed through a bad area, is a better idea than not taking these precautions, and might actually save your life one day.

It's a common sense issue, not a gender issue or even a rape issue.

@ Haruhi, the fact that your sympathy for an attack victim seems to depend on the extremity of what happened to them frankly scares me a little. Nobody deserves any kind of abuse simply because of how they dress. Sure, I'd personally find it a little undignified to go around with your boobs on display or a skirt so short that everyone can see your panties, but if you wish to do it's your prerogative, and you don't deserve to be shunned for it. Don't forget that what's considered 'slutty' or (and I'm only using this as an example) 'asking to get raped' (ugh, it's horrible to even type) is very, very subjective depending on where you live, your upbringing and culture. My father is foreign, my mother English. I've lived in England all my life and so have grown up wearing makeup, pierced ears and short skirts, but if I went to my father's country dressed this way it would be considered very inappropriate. According to your way of thinking, someone could sexually assault me in that country because according to their culture I'm 'asking for it' and I wouldn't be deserving of sympathy...unless I was raped or tortured

 

[Vhazhiphor]

I think the whole "deserving it" issue gets a bit complicated because we're using the word "rape".

Before I continue, I'd like to make clear that I don't think the following applies in this case. Even though I don't know many of the details, from what I've read she was at a party with some friends. Maybe had a bit much to drink. It happens. But if she was drugged, there's really no blaming her for anything. You don't really go into a party like that expecting such a possibility. [Edit: To clarify, you don't expect to go to a party with your school friends to be drugged and sexually abused. I'm not saying she would have "deserved" it if she wasn't drugged - the most she "deserved" was waking up with a bad headache. "If" was probably not the best word to use in that sentence.]

Throwing my two cents in, it's not so much about deserving to get raped because of how you dress or act, and even using the word "deserving" feels off. It's about doing something stupid. When you do something stupid, bad things follow. If you go to a bad part of town wearing an expensive watch and large gold ring, you don't deserve to get mugged, but what do you think is going to happen? If you tell some strange person online where you live... well, okay, that one works out sometimes. But you're still taking a (hopefully, calculated) risk.

Of course no one deserves to have bad things happen to them, but they happen anyway. And if you put yourself in a position where they can happen, or happen more easily, when avoiding that could be as simple as not wearing your jewelery today, or putting on a sweater, asking a friend to come along with you, or maybe walking down a different street... Like, in the town where I used to live, people don't really hang out at night anymore. A couple of years ago, the kids would usually head over to a local park or the one night club in the place when it was dark. And they should be able to go and hang out at the night club if they want to, but there's the very real risk of being kidnapped or caught in the crossfire of a gunfight. So most people try to avoid that nowadays.

I realize it's not a perfect analogy, what with the much more personal and invasive nature of a rape. But really, saying "I'm going to go dress in the skimpiest clothes I have and get very very drunk while surrounded by strangers and nothing bad could possibly come of that" is at the very least an incredibly naive thing to say. Actually, skimpy clothes aren't even needed. The rest of that sentence is still a dubiously good idea, no matter your gender. One should balance their freedoms against the expectation that bad things happen. It may not be idealistic, and it may not be nice, but it's the way things are. And until we can get things to change, if that's even possible, there's certain things that really are just common sense.

 

[みさあき]

Sasaki, I'm sorry :[

My opinion pretty much has alot to do with my upbringing (and a tiny fraction is cultural related). I've been taught that what I wear or do can either send a right or wrong message. Like I saw a segment on TV and it was an experiment. They had a waitress dress in her uniform (which was conservative BTW) and her boss was sexuality harassing her (touching her in wrong places mostly) and people stood up for her. But when they switched it and she wore this tight fitting red dress (it had sleeves but it was tight enough that you could see that she had a butt and all her curves were there) and tried the same scenero again, this time.... people were less inclined to stand up for this girl. Why? Because they felt that she was "asking for it" which in my honest opinion, I agree with them.

I'm not trying to say that you deserved to have anything happen to you whether it be harassment or whatnot, I am saying that what someone wears or what someone does can send the wrong message. If someone touches you wrong like in the scenero, I am not sure how I'd feel because I've been brought up with conservative ideals on the topic. :[

 

[Pokemaniac24]

Sasaki, I'm sorry :[

My opinion pretty much has alot to do with my upbringing (and a tiny fraction is cultural related). I've been taught that what I wear or do can either send a right or wrong message. Like I saw a segment on TV and it was an experiment. They had a waitress dress in her uniform (which was conservative BTW) and her boss was sexuality harassing her (touching her in wrong places mostly) and people stood up for her. But when they switched it and she wore this tight fitting red dress (it had sleeves but it was tight enough that you could see that she had a butt and all her curves were there) and tried the same scenero again, this time.... people were less inclined to stand up for this girl. Why? Because they felt that she was "asking for it" which in my honest opinion, I agree with them.

I'm not trying to say that you deserved to have anything happen to you whether it be harassment or whatnot, I am saying that what someone wears or what someone does can send the wrong message. If someone touches you wrong like in the scenero, I am not sure how I'd feel because I've been brought up with conservative ideals on the topic. :[

Well, your signature is very telling as to how you think of women. I think you're classless for some of the things you said on here.

 

[megaevolvedmushroom]

Ugh, I do NOT have even 0.00000001% symphathy for the guys, in fact, they didn't get punished enough (this is RAPE we're talking about).

As for clothes, it doesn't matter what one wears, rape can still happen to them.

 

[みさあき]

*sigh*

I didn't say anyone deserved to be raped. And my signature has nothing to do with the subject.

 

[Nekusagi]

*sigh*

I didn't say anyone deserved to be raped. And my signature has nothing to do with the subject.

The reason that this advice gets labeled as victim-blaming is because it essentially is. That doesn't mean that it isn't sometimes still good advice, but it says something pretty terrible about society when the best we can do to prevent rape is to advise women to make themselves less tempting targets.

Don't know if I'll be hated for this one, but I kinda beg to differ. I mean, when a woman wears something revealing and gets unwanted attention... then I am not really going to feel bad for them. Because as kids, we had it beaten in our heads (well, the ones who were raised conservative much like myself) that what we wear can either send a right or wrong message. Wearing something revealing and (and or add that with being drunk) can send the wrong message. Which is why men in prison alot of times refrain from having their pants down to their butts.

I'm not saying it's the victim's fault because rape is a horrible crime. I'm really not. But I have my opinions.

Sasaki, I'm sorry :[

My opinion pretty much has alot to do with my upbringing (and a tiny fraction is cultural related). I've been taught that what I wear or do can either send a right or wrong message. Like I saw a segment on TV and it was an experiment. They had a waitress dress in her uniform (which was conservative BTW) and her boss was sexuality harassing her (touching her in wrong places mostly) and people stood up for her. But when they switched it and she wore this tight fitting red dress (it had sleeves but it was tight enough that you could see that she had a butt and all her curves were there) and tried the same scenero again, this time.... people were less inclined to stand up for this girl. Why? Because they felt that she was "asking for it" which in my honest opinion, I agree with them.

I'm not trying to say that you deserved to have anything happen to you whether it be harassment or whatnot, I am saying that what someone wears or what someone does can send the wrong message. If someone touches you wrong like in the scenero, I am not sure how I'd feel because I've been brought up with conservative ideals on the topic. :[