3D Graphics or 2D Graphics?

[Incinerawr]

Oh, I didn't post in here yet? Then 2D all the way. I can't stand what they made the Pokémon look like. It's fine for games like Pokken, but after I saw what Miltank looked like in S/M... *shivers*

 

[Dieter]

I appreciate their attempt to try and make the 3D models match the original art more closely in colour, but the side-effect of it looking so washed out compared to sprite art is regrettable. The move from a 2D to a 3D overworld also somehow diminished the overworld itself and Gen VI and VII feel less solid somehow. At the same time, I enjoy the attention to detail, and I really liked the inclusion of trainer art in Gen VI tbh. And aesthetically I think Gen VI and VII haven't done a bad job at all, aside from the aforementioned problems. I'm also probably one of the few people who liked the chibi proportions of Gen VI? I think if the Switch games manage to give more 'weight' to the models and overworld, I'll have very little to complain about in this department (which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't mind a 2019 release)

 

[Lone_Garurumon]

Personally I really miss the sprite based artstyle. My smaller gripes with it have been brought up in the thread before this point. It makes the world feel smaller in places like the flower meadows and a lot of Alola's routes (though Poni canyon feels remarkably large), though that may be a problem with Alola more than 3D as a whole, since I never got that impression in XY.

But my biggest problem is one that I'm kinda surprised hasn't been mentioned so far in the thread yet. 99% of Pokemon feel dead and lifeless. Not in the washed out colours kinda way (which I honestly never really noticed myself), but in the way they stand. Out of all the Pokemon, I can only think of a few that have actual personality in their poses: Incineroar has personality positively oozing out of every pore on its body, Sneasel looks like a cocky little shit with its arms folded like that, and Mega Sceptile and Mega Blaziken are also in a good place. Everything else just... Stands there! Or in the worst cases flies in place (for god's sake Game Freak put them on the ground!). I mean, is it that hard to say, have Hitmontop spinning around, or have the birds preen themselves for a few seconds every so often?

 

[Midorikawa]

I like being able to change clothes and appearance, but that’s it. The rest of 3D doesn’t live up to the 2D. Especially the most important part, pokemon. They’ve had liveliness since gen 1 just by their still positions and designs, and the moving ones gave even more so.

Now they seemed dead. That lack that life they had so many generations. And Mr. Mime is downright terrifying. They need to improve the models and give them back life before 3D can overtake 2D

 

[SodiumChloride]

I prefer 3d models

 

[DarkMeow]

The 3D Pokemon models were made with a high poly count since XY with the intention to be useable in many future Pokemon games down the line. I believe this is what Muur was referring to.

Ah, I see. I still do not believe that 3D models can be future-proofed completely unless they follow a very unique artstyle. Sprite work can't either, but regardless, 3D doesn't have an advantage over 2D this way. Every 3D model and 2D sprite gets outmoded eventually.

Yeah, they deserved the price they had 20 years ago. But now 2D is for indie devs that can't afford much more. Gen one now isn't worth more than $5. If they released a 2D Pokemon main game series game, I'd expect it to come at $15. Even Pokemon GO has 3D models.

It's fine to like 2D but that doesnt mean the SECOND highest selling game of all time should push out 1995 quality games



What she said. They clearly made the models for the Switch, then downgraded them for 3DS. If you've seen them outside the 3DS, they're really good

You can't compare Pokémon Red/Green/Blue/Yellow to today's 2D spritework. They were black and white, ugly, any the Pokémon team was still getting a handle on the new Pokémon designs. Today's spritework isn't anywhere CLOSE to 1995's spritework, and calling modern 2D spritework "1995 quality" is ridiculous and ignoring all the progress we've made since then. 1995 and today's spritework are not equal in quality; not even close. Are you really saying that Pokémon Black and White were 1995 quality?

I'll get down to brass tacks here. You can't compare today's 2D artwork with 1995's. Just because they are the same style doesn't mean they are equal in quality. And honestly, making sprites and 2D artwork probably costs around the same as making 3D models when hiring for people. It's not just for game developers who are broke.

On the other hand, I do agree that they'll never go back to 2D, at least not with the main games. There's no discussion on whether they'd be cheaper or not, because it's just not going to happen. And I agree that buying Pokémon Yellow for 30 bucks off of Ebay is probably a bad financial decision; they just ain't worth what they were in 1995. Unfortunately, I've only seen a little of what the Switch can do in regards to Pokémon models, and it does look good from what I have seen. Once the issues get worked out with the previous models, it'll come down to personal preference.

But my biggest problem is one that I'm kinda surprised hasn't been mentioned so far in the thread yet. 99% of Pokemon feel dead and lifeless. Not in the washed out colours kinda way (which I honestly never really noticed myself), but in the way they stand. Out of all the Pokemon, I can only think of a few that have actual personality in their poses: Incineroar has personality positively oozing out of every pore on its body, Sneasel looks like a cocky little shit with its arms folded like that, and Mega Sceptile and Mega Blaziken are also in a good place. Everything else just... Stands there! Or in the worst cases flies in place (for god's sake Game Freak put them on the ground!). I mean, is it that hard to say, have Hitmontop spinning around, or have the birds preen themselves for a few seconds every so often?

I didn't notice this, actually. Maybe this is the one component that makes them feel lifeless, and I was just so used to having dynamic and lively Pokémon I couldn't quite put my finger on why the newer models look less lively.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

I think the lively and non-lively debate in 3D depends on the Pokemon in question.
Some Pokemon like Charizard do not show personality or liveliness.

But others like Archeops (a proto-bird with newly found wings so it’s getting the hang of flying now), and Incineroar (a proud and arrogant heel wrestler oozing power) show tons of it.

 

[Esserise]

I think the lively and non-lively debate in 3D depends on the Pokemon in question.
Some Pokemon like Charizard do not show personality or liveliness.

I do think it depends on the Pokémon, but personally, I don’t think Charizard has ever looked better or more lively than it does now (well, I will say that the Yellow and HGSS sprites look very good). It actually gets to fly and use its wings, as opposed to just vibrating or bobbing up and down with an awkwardly crooked neck.

And when I talk about the liveliness of the models, I’m not just talking about their default battle stances. I’m also including their attack animations and Amie animations in that - and that’s where I think the life and personality really tends to come out. ‘Cause yeah, if I were to evaluate 3D Blaziken solely on the basis of its battle stance, then of course I would say it’s a corpse. But seeing it able to leap up, or flare out its wrist flames, or cross its arms in Amie goes far beyond anything the sprites ever did for me in terms of communicating life (although that shouldn’t be read as me bagging on the sprites - I do love them, it’s just that they are fundamentally limited in what they can do).

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

I've always been excited for the Pokemon series to enter 3D. Whilst I can certainly appreciate the artistry behind sprite-based games, a game always feels more real to me when the characters are in three dimensions, regardless of the fidelity of the graphics. (For instance, the PS1 Final Fantasy 9 felt way more real to me than the SNES Final Fantasy 6, in spite of the graphics not being so great.)

But I was honestly disappointed when X & Y showed up with its chibi graphics on the overworld. Luckily, Sun & Moon came way closer to my dream, and finally felt like a proper 3D world. Unfortunately though, as others have said, the washed out models made me miss the sprites. Not only that, but I was expecting something on-par with Pokemon Stadium when we finally got these games, and was disappointed. Pokemon Stadium, whilst having inferior fidelity, has way more personality to its models when in their idle animations. The Pokemon are lively and often doing things related to their species. And when they actually come out of the Pokeball for the first time, they have an animation as well, rather than just... the ball being thrown out and the Pokemon just standing there like a lifeless puppet.

I can only hope that a console game like the Switch 2019 games will remedy such issues. The Let's Go games do bring back the color, and I hope they go with that style, whilst retaining the more realistic proportions of Sun & Moon, and maybe infusing more life into the idle animations (particularly when a Pokemon comes out of its ball) like Stadium.

Due to all of this, I'm kind of mixed. I prefer the opportunities that 3D has allowed Pokemon (such as Pokemon Refresh and more expressive cut scenes... save for the Player character. Another thing Gamefreak should fix for the Switch games) but I miss the color and life present in the BW sprites. Once I see a proper implementation of 3D graphics though, I think I'll prefer them. For now, I'm kind of 50-50.

 

[Diamond & Pearl]

What I like about the 2D games is that the player has the freedom to interpret the game in their own way. For instance, since I see Dawn as a rational and clever girl, I envisioned in my head that she wasn't intimidated but rather indifferent when Team Galactic was threatening her, simply because you have that freedom in 2D. However, you don't have that freedom in 3D since you can read the characters' mind by looking at their faces and body language. You can interpret a 3D game in only one way whereas you can do it in a thousand ways in a 2D.

 

[Esserise]

However, you don't have that freedom in 3D since you can read the characters' mind by looking at their faces and body language.

I assume that’s the ability they were trying to restore in Gen 7 by locking the protagonist into a singular expression but that, uh... did not work.

 

[Diamond & Pearl]

I assume that’s the ability they were trying to restore in Gen 7 by locking the protagonist into a singular expression but that, uh... did not work.

Clearly. They got rid of the feature in LGPE. But don't get me started on Gen VII, those games are a crime to the franchise.

 

[BigBadButterfree]

When it comes to 2D v 3D, the overworld really doesn’t matter to me. It’s the Pokémon themselves, and I like the 3D but also think they could have done a lot better with some things.

First, and I know I and many others have posted this before, the Pokémon affected negatively by sky battles need to be fixed. Their 3D models have been ruined by the need to constantly be afloat. Xatu would make much more sense in a stoic, unmoving position. Tropius can’t have any interesting characteristic because it has to keep flying awkwardly (which just looks bad).

Next, the sizes. If they couldn’t scale they models correctly because of the 3ds, I feel like maybe they should’ve waited until they could. Colosseum, XD, And PBR were much closer in this regard.

Finally, I think some Pokémon just lose their interesting characteristics or charm in their 3D model. One I can think of off the top of my head is Hippowdon. The coolest thing about it was always the artwork and sprites depicting it as swimming through a pile of sand, spilling out of the holes in its back. But without the sand, and then with its giant head, it’s 3D model just standing there without the sand looks so weird and... unnatural.

There’s also the big difference of Pokémon with fire on their bodies. It never seems consistent across all the Pokémon. And then they just don’t even put it on Pokémon like Typhlosion for the majority of its time on screen, which I honk lose some out on its point.

Wow, longer post than intended, and it seems much more negative than I had hoped. I really do like the 3D over all. It just... could be better. They’re making good progress, with the gen 7 pokemon having more character and neat movements during battle. But a lot can be improved, especially older Pokémon.

 

[Midorikawa]

I do think it depends on the Pokémon, but personally, I don’t think Charizard has ever looked better or more lively than it does now (well, I will say that the Yellow and HGSS sprites look very good). It actually gets to fly and use its wings, as opposed to just vibrating or bobbing up and down with an awkwardly crooked neck.

And when I talk about the liveliness of the models, I’m not just talking about their default battle stances. I’m also including their attack animations and Amie animations in that - and that’s where I think the life and personality really tends to come out. ‘Cause yeah, if I were to evaluate 3D Blaziken solely on the basis of its battle stance, then of course I would say it’s a corpse. But seeing it able to leap up, or flare out its wrist flames, or cross its arms in Amie goes far beyond anything the sprites ever did for me in terms of communicating life (although that shouldn’t be read as me bagging on the sprites - I do love them, it’s just that they are fundamentally limited in what they can do).

Issue with Amie is once your Pokémon is maxed out,, you don’t really have a reason to use it. Refresh you generally have a reason to use, but again not much. Before them every Pokémon oozed personality when you met it Becaise even the still sprites had quirks.

What I like about the 2D games is that the player has the freedom to interpret the game in their own way. For instance, since I see Dawn as a rational and clever girl, I envisioned in my head that she wasn't intimidated but rather indifferent when Team Galactic was threatening her, simply because you have that freedom in 2D. However, you don't have that freedom in 3D since you can read the characters' mind by looking at their faces and body language. You can interpret a 3D game in only one way whereas you can do it in a thousand ways in a 2D.

Well you’re still indifferent. In fact you don’t care if anyone dies or anything, and actually enjoy their pain.

Though they really really need to work on the Pokémon liveliness. Not just in normal battle but also for things like z moves. Have you seen dartrix using the flying z move? It moves like it’s a toy being played with by a kid.

 

[Life]

i don't really have a preference. i like playing gen 6/7 games because i do appreciate the 3D over-world and battles since it makes the game feel more alive to me, but the 2D sprites will always be that classic pokémon look to me as well.

so to me it's a matter of improved realism vs. classic pokémon style; i don't necessarily care to consider the details aha, especially if they aren't hindering gameplay.

 

[Esserise]

Issue with Amie is once your Pokémon is maxed out,, you don’t really have a reason to use it. Refresh you generally have a reason to use, but again not much. Before them every Pokémon oozed personality when you met it Becaise even the still sprites had quirks.

That’s a good point, but I can’t really say it’s been a problem for me personally. I don’t use Amie/Refresh very much to begin with, so I think I probably invest more appreciation into those animations whenever I do use it. Beyond that, there are still the battle animations, which I like a lot and will see whenever I play the game. But even then, I don’t typically play my games for very long stretches at a time; I work more in small spurts. So maybe that’s just a general part of why the models seem to resonate more with me than the sprites.

Of course this is all subjective, but the way I guess I mainly approach it is just, what makes them seem more like living creatures to me? A static image or a looped animation can have quirks, sure, but for whatever reason it just doesn’t leave as much of an impression on me as seeing the Pokémon being able to move around and make facial expressions. Along that line, one of the things I really loved about USUM was how they added the Pokémon into the overworld. Being able to interact with some of the NPC Pokémon was cute and endearing, and then there were other instances where you could see them in the wild on out-of-reach tiles, just treading upon their natural habitat. Like, just yesterday, I happened to be playing Ultra Moon and went through Diglett’s Tunnel, and noticed at the very end that you can spot a Dugtrio walking along up near the ceiling. It’s a small detail for sure, but for me it communicates a lot more life than almost anything I ever saw from the sprites.

 

[Almonds]

As for pokemon, I'm fine with both 2D and 3D as long as they do something to fix the lag.

As for humans, I really hate that the Gen7 protagonist was so emotionless. Heck, just in ORAS we've had Brendan/May displaying a variety of facial expressions depending on the situation. In Unova, they had the pixel sprites move show emotion by tapping their feet, pulling down their hats, closing their eyes and shaking their heads...

 

[Massive Legend]

While some Pokemon only work in 3D (almost all of them being newer ones) I think 2D looked aesthetically better. I especially hated how they replaced the cool trainer sprites in the 2D games or the great trainer artwork that they had in Gen 6 with a bland looking 3D model in Gen 7.

 

[SeanWheeler]

Honestly, they should have stayed 2D and saved the 3D for Pokémon Stadium type of games. I actually loved comparing sprites between games and I like the rare NPC trainer backsprites that you'd only see in capture tutorials and Multi-Battles.

 

[Lemmy]

I highly prefer the 3D, to be honest. as much as i love 2D artwork, 3D just makes everything way more enjoyable to see, especially the more pastel colors. Playing emerald at night can burn my eyes but ultra sun is completly comfortable without being too dark.

I also like how it allowed us to get more interessing moves and the amie/refresh.