A More Realistic Pokémon World

[LouThunders]

If the Pokemon World is more realistic, 95% of the trainer encounters you see in-game would be illegal. So will catching wild Pokemon. You will need some sort of special permit (probably your Trainer Card). Also, children would never be allowed to travel alone.

Don't get me started on the common Pokemon that can be very hazardous to human life. Imagine having a Slugma in your house...

 

[Osprey]

and finally, speaking of ireland, the prevalence and influence of religion - catholic in particular - historically played a HUGE part in how people's political and social views were formed. it'd be interesting to think of how pokémon "religion" (myths and legends i suppose?) could influence the whole conservative/liberal divide, and where they'd be most prevalent! would any local myths encourage people to swing one way or the other? would people HORRIBLY misinterpret what the legends mean? who knows? either way these kinds of topics are really interesting!

Interesting idea, but that would never happen. You put themes like that into a children's video game, and people in real life will horribly misinterpret the games themselves. I'd rather we not start a holy war over a fictional holy war.

I have to wonder... it's hard enough to explain how 10-year-olds can be permitted to own and use absurdly dangerous creatures. How do you even explain the fact that they're able to just walk into people's houses and take stuff off the floor? If anything would be removed to become more "realistic," that'd be the first thing to go.

 

[Beth Pavell]

and finally, speaking of ireland, the prevalence and influence of religion - catholic in particular - historically played a HUGE part in how people's political and social views were formed. it'd be interesting to think of how pokémon "religion" (myths and legends i suppose?) could influence the whole conservative/liberal divide, and where they'd be most prevalent! would any local myths encourage people to swing one way or the other? would people HORRIBLY misinterpret what the legends mean? who knows? either way these kinds of topics are really interesting!

What little religion is in the games looks distinctly Shinto to me - in which case it's quite possible that people would have a rather casual attitude towards it.

 

[Natu? Natu!]

The problem with right, left and centre when it comes to politics is that they are culturally specific. Most countries tend to have a majority of the people somewhere around the centre, because that's basically how the centre is defined. However, a US politician that is considered centre would be considered far right in many European countries (Obama's political standpoint on many issues is fairly similar to the right-wing politicians where I live, minus his support for the death penalty, a support which, where I live, is literally only shared by the neo-Nazis). In other words, I would assume that the political standpoint of the people in the pokémon world could be described as centre, as in most countries. The problem comes when we try to understand what that actually means. Furthermore, the division between Liberals and Conservatives is different in different countries as well. In some countres, it is like that. In other countries, Liberals and Conservatives are on one side and Socialists on the other. In some countries, it's basically Liberals vs Socialists, et cetera. Furthermore, I'm not sure whether the associations between demographic variables and political standpoints are the same in all countries. I would assume that the creators/game designers/scriptwriters actively try to stay away from politically sensitive subjects (that also includes religion).
Pokémon healthcare is free, both in the games (apart from medicines, but visiting nurse Joy is free), and I guess that would imply that ordinary healthcare is free as well. You don't see any beggars. If anything, that could be seen as an indicator that there is some sort of general social security. Then again, before basing any conclusions on logical reasoning, I suggest you think about this: How old was Ash when he started his journey? For how long has he been going on? How old is he now? Indeed, there are good reasons to be careful when trying to deduce facts about the pokémon world by reasoning logically.
Regarding demographics, I would assume that the best approach would be to look at the population density and degree of urbanisation in the various regions of the world that the pokémon regions are said to be based on. Using the population figures from the games, you could then extrapolate total populations based on assumptions of the area of the respective regions and the actual demographics of the various parts ofd the real world.

 

[the_may_fan]

The problem with right, left and centre when it comes to politics is that they are culturally specific. Most countries tend to have a majority of the people somewhere around the centre, because that's basically how the centre is defined. However, a US politician that is considered centre would be considered far right in many European countries (Obama's political standpoint on many issues is fairly similar to the right-wing politicians where I live, minus his support for the death penalty, a support which, where I live, is literally only shared by the neo-Nazis). In other words, I would assume that the political standpoint of the people in the pokémon world could be described as centre, as in most countries. The problem comes when we try to understand what that actually means. Furthermore, the division between Liberals and Conservatives is different in different countries as well. In some countres, it is like that. In other countries, Liberals and Conservatives are on one side and Socialists on the other. In some countries, it's basically Liberals vs Socialists, et cetera. Furthermore, I'm not sure whether the associations between demographic variables and political standpoints are the same in all countries. I would assume that the creators/game designers/scriptwriters actively try to stay away from politically sensitive subjects (that also includes religion).

Pokémon healthcare is free, both in the games (apart from medicines, but visiting nurse Joy is free), and I guess that would imply that ordinary healthcare is free as well. You don't see any beggars. If anything, that could be seen as an indicator that there is some sort of general social security. Then again, before basing any conclusions on logical reasoning, I suggest you think about this: How old was Ash when he started his journey? For how long has he been going on? How old is he now? Indeed, there are good reasons to be careful when trying to deduce facts about the pokémon world by reasoning logically.

Regarding demographics, I would assume that the best approach would be to look at the population density and degree of urbanisation in the various regions of the world that the pokémon regions are said to be based on. Using the population figures from the games, you could then extrapolate total populations based on assumptions of the area of the respective regions and the actual demographics of the various parts of the real world.

I concur that politics is culturally specific, so I imagine that there exist issues that are only pertinent in the Pokémon world. Utilizing the left-right paradigm with which I am most acquainted, the left is modern liberalism that advocates larger government oversight and advocates individual liberties barring gun ownership. The right, in contrast, is seen to be aligned more closely with business interests and favors traditional cultural norms. My guess is that bipartisan support, or a working coalition in a multiparty governmental system, supports and regulates trainers and advocates the profession on different grounds. I could imagine those on the left supporting trainers because it encourages travel, promotes thoughtfulness in the youth over time (unless you're Ash), and betters society in similar ways. The right would perhaps support it because being a trainer is an ideal manifestation of individualism and sustains a profitable industry (Pokétech and supplies) integral to their economy. Overlapping reasons would exist for sure, but other motivations would be more distinct.

I could see "free" Pokémon healthcare being a compromise among the liberal left and conservative right. Perhaps the left won the battle for universalized Pokémon healthcare in exchange for agreeing to not pass laws regulating the sale of Potions, Antidotes, etc. at Pokémarts. The sales taxes would help defray the costs of providing this healthcare; allowing store owners to control prices would foster healthy capitalistic competition that helps ensure the mass production of these goods. I don't think Pokémon healthcare being free necessarily implies that human healthcare is free on the basis that Pokémon are far easier and cheaper to treat. Biologically speaking, I would guess that their cellular regenerative processes are superior and distinct from ours and, as such, can recover far more rapidly with the aid of technology that exists in their world. As for religion, I think they live in a world largely devoid it - perhaps like the West in one or two centuries time if trends hold. A minority, perhaps a quarter to a third, hold Shinto-like beliefs, but their influence in politics and culture has waned drastically compared to centuries past.

As for the Ash timeline, it is well known that floating timelines are necessary in many universes for a variety of reasons. I wouldn't let this fact prevent us from assuming people and Pokémon age normally like us in our world.

 

[Sword Kyubey]

The villain teams would probably have guns and probably kidnap\kill the kid foiling their plans. Another thing would be that the pokemon that the proffesors give would be stronger since you're their assistant.

 

[Natu? Natu!]

Liberalism has slightly different meanings in European and US politics, in that Liberalism is in a sense a 'broader' concept in Europe (i.e., there are both left liberals and right liberals, so to say, with the right liberals being against a strong state). Again, we cannot assume that pokémon conservatives are against government-subsidised healthcare because US conservatives are. In many countries, coservatives are in fact for using tax money to pay for healthcare. Also, political compromises and conflicts are different in two-party systems such as the USA and multiple-party systems, such as most European countries. Also, different countries have different ways of translating number of votes into seats in a parliament, and this in turn affects the general strength of goverments, which leads to different strategies being used in different countries. The concept of state, and how the state is viewed, is also different in different countries. We don't know what the pokémon world is like in that aspect, so any guess is merely a guess. Basically, it's quite impossible to say what politics is like in the pokemon world. Demographics is probably easier. I think we can argue over this for all eternity, plus some weeks. Regarding guns, that would probably not be a big issue in the pokémon world. First of all, gun ownership is a fairly specific US issue. In most Western countries, gun ownership is highly restricted, and basically you are only allowed to own a gun if you are a hunter or if you compete in a sport where you use guns, and it is not a question that is debated that much. I don't know about non-Western countries, but I think that in the pokémon world, pokémon probably take the place of guns. The villains use pokémon instead of guns, so probably guns are less important. In a way, this makes it harder to control than guns, as anyone can get a pokémon and train it, and then use it to attack others. With guns, you may at least in theory control the production, distribution, marketing and ownership, but that's probably harder with pokémon.

Regarding religion, I think it's hard to say that much about that too. Organised religion is not a main issue in the anime or the games, although mythology certainly has a fairly big meaning. The story is about a ten-year-old Pokémon trainer meeting other trainers, gym leaders, pokémon researchers and elite four members. It's difficult to say, I think, what part religion plays in a society based on what part it plays in the anime. To make a parallell, eventhough religion is not a major theme in "Animal cops" on Animal Planet, it does not follow that religion is not a major theme in the USA. Basically, Animal cops is a fairly narrow TV show about a very specific subject. In the same way, the anime is not about the pokémon world in general, but about the life of a specific pokémon trainer and his interaction with others who to a large extent are also fairly specialised in pokémon. There are most likely people in the pokémon world that are not that much into pokémon at all, although they are not shown in the anime as Ash does not interact with them to the same degree. I think that not bringing politics or organised religion into the anime or games is a decision that has been made for marketing reasons. It would simply be too risky as it might put viewers off.

 

[Beth Pavell]

What this comes down to is the fact that most aspects of the Pokémon world are vague at best. And let's be honest, Pokémon isn't written for an adult audience. Taking politics as the example, there's literally nothing in the source material to support any speculation.

Now from a fanfiction perspective there's nothing wrong with thinking about these questions, and trying to tie it in to what we do know about the Pokémon world, whether we use games anime or - save us - the manga

 

[ocelotlrama jaguar]

I don't remember who said it and I am not going to pass this opinion off as my own, but I remember someone mentioning if dragons existed, there is a high chance we would not have made it past the Bronze Age. THAT is how I see the Pokemon world if it were real. No healthcare, no right or left politics, no technology, just constant fighting and the need to survive with a monarchy. Kinda like the show Gargoyles. Hey, they were intelligent beings who strove for peace. It didn't stop people from wanting to kill each other and there was a lot of paranoia and prejudice amongst people who didn't understand anything that was different.

Of course, let's talk about the Pokemon world as they way it was given to us by Game Freak, with all the high level technology and allowing children under the age of 10 to become trainers. It's really hard to come up with any kind of realism to it, because of all the unrealistic lore that accompanies it. Why can children become trainers at such a young age? Why are people so dependent on these creatures when they have all this amazing technology in their hands? The power plants that they mention are so advanced they seem to use an unlimited clean energy source instead of coal, and they don't seem to use the help of electric-types. Why do people not lock their doors? They apparently only do this when it's drizzling or the sun is blazing hot in Sootopolis, but once the disasters are gone, they unlock all their doors again. Hell, they welcome you in with open arms! And look! You can pick up anything you want off the floor and look into their garbage cans. They could have information in there that could land them in jail and they still wouldn't mind, but they all seem to be empty. Apparently all the places in the games are regions, but do regions mean countries? Does the Pokemon world even have countries? Or have all the regions we've visited just happen to be in one big country? There seems to be some implied religion with the cemeteries that appear in these games, but it's just there as a plot point, a place to catch Pokemon, and have Pokemon battles.

I'm sure all of this would work in fanfiction as @Beth Pavell mentioned. It's just something that I cannot see them explaining in the games. I haven't even touched the surface on how everything would work in a real world setting. Those are just the points that stick out like a sore thumb to me. Damn, my head hurts just thinking about it. XD

 

[henrymidfields]

I've thought about this, and made a series of my own headcanons based on WWII. A major difference from real-life would be Shoyo/Poke-Japan's where in this timeline, the Japanese people rise up against the ultranationalist Kanto administration.

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/blogs/72744/category2042/

Some basic things to keep in mind:
Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Shinnoh are all part of Poke-Japan, as the Tourist class in XY implied. Only Shinnoh, however is a proper prefecture. Unova is a State in Pokemerica, and Kalos is the Pokémon-specific term for the Republic of Poke-France.
Some Pokémon that exist in Unova also existed in Poke-Japan, but were made extinct.

I'm hoping to expand this further with more headcanons about geography.

 

[Beth Pavell]

I don't remember who said it and I am not going to pass this opinion off as my own, but I remember someone mentioning if dragons existed, there is a high chance we would not have made it past the Bronze Age. THAT is how I see the Pokemon world if it were real. No healthcare, no right or left politics, no technology, just constant fighting and the need to survive with a monarchy. Kinda like the show Gargoyles. Hey, they were intelligent beings who strove for peace. It didn't stop people from wanting to kill each other and there was a lot of paranoia and prejudice amongst people who didn't understand anything that was different.

I don't see why. Humanity has always found new ways to fight one another, and has also always found new ways to function as a society nonetheless. Using pokémon as an aide to fighting one another isn't fundamentally going to be much different to using a horse or dog or elephant. The conflict is probably going to be potentially a lot more devastating, true - which is also all the more reason to evolve ways to avoid that devastation being a constant occurrence.

 

[Natu? Natu!]

Assuming an average generation length of 25 years, tThe bronze age is perhaps 100-200 generations back, not more. Little has changed in terms of our intelligence or social skills. Today, we have ways of killing each other that exceed the dangerousness of most pokémon attacks by far, and yet we have working societies. I'm not sure that the existence of pokémon would have meant that we would never leave the bronze age due to constant fighting (rather depressingly, potential military use is one of the major driving forces behind new technologies being developed).
And why would you attack your neighbour with a dragon, even if you are hungry for power or natural resources or whatever, if you knew that your neighbour might as well attack you? If there were pokémon that could be used to attack and kill others in our world, we would probably have come up with ways to deal with the threat and ways to enable peaceful contacts between people, as it is usually in everybody's interest to allow for peaceful interaction in trade etc.

Basically, I think we have to suspend our disbeliefs. Yes, there are some thing in the pokémon world that wouldn't have worked in our world. There are some things that are not logically consistent, where one anime episode says one thing, only for another anime episode to say something different. You can enter people's homes in a way that you cannot do in the real world. At the same time, in many computer games you can enter people's homes and even take food or weapons without them necessarily minding too much. This is even true for games that are based on much more elaborated back stories, and that are made to be logically consistent. The pokémon franchise isn't about politics, religion or complicated matters. Yes, it is possible to speculate about such things, and you may even extrapolate from games or anime episodes or the manga, but for every clever idea you come up with that you can support using a specific anime episode or game scene, there will always be other game scenes or anime episodes that indicate something different. First of all, the franchise's main target audience is little kids. Secondly, there are probably marketing reasons for not delving too deep into politics or religion. They are both sensitive subjects, and I think that is a reason why the anime isn't very political at all.

 

[Beth Pavell]

And why would you attack your neighbour with a dragon, even if you are hungry for power or natural resources or whatever, if you knew that your neighbour might as well attack you? If there were pokémon that could be used to attack and kill others in our world, we would probably have come up with ways to deal with the threat and ways to enable peaceful contacts between people, as it is usually in everybody's interest to allow for peaceful interaction in trade etc.

You might, but then again you might not. This kind of philosophy runs deep into human nature. As I see it, though the weapons may change, the thinking might not. What would be interesting would be thinking about how pokémon might feature in violent conflict. For example, in the middle ages of this world, it's not a stretch to think that trials by combat might be conducted with pokémon.

 

[Drakon]

I'm picturing the cities and towns to look like (and have populations of) actual cities and towns, not tiny hamlets out in the middle of buttfuck nowhere. Seriously, a population of 100 is not a large city.

I'd also assume there are a lot of non-pokémon related jobs and workers too.

Also, there has to be some sort of self-defense force for the entire continent and maybe each region has something akin to a National Guard detachment.

 

[henrymidfields]

I've actually started writing about how the regions (could) tie into each other. I'm not going to delve into too much, but just as XY alluded to Poke-Japan through the Tourist Trainer Classes and their usage of Pokémon from only the first four generations, I've expanded that into the country of Shoyo (昇陽　しょうよう Lit: Rising Sun), which is the Pokémon equivalent of Japan. Shinnoh, Almia, Kanto, Johto, and Hoenn are all located within Shoyo in a similar fashion to Japan, and Kanto and Johto are considered to be the social/economic centre of Shoyo, just like real-life Kanto and Kansai. Of course, some things are made more idealised (to line up with the idealized world Junichi Masuda mentioned years ago) - a stronger following of, and a more bottom-up type of democracy, and less environmental pollution than the real-life equivalent, for example. Other things may be changed to suit the Pokémon-oriented premise better.

Link below:
http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/blogs/7...on-geography-poke-japan-shoyo-part-1-a-69740/

 

[Robo-Floatzel]

My depiction of the Pokemon world is a lot more like the real world, but still retains the fantasy aspects of the franchise. I have never been a fan of any depiction of the Pokemon world that portrays it as an idealistic utopia in which every single aspect of life has Pokemon tied into it in some way, like you can't even exist without Pokemon being present, such as how the prefix "Poke-" is in front of everything like "Poke-dollars" and "Poke-Marts" and such, which sometimes makes me wonder if people literally worship Pokemon as their religious faith in the world. Personally, I think being a trainer is a choice and isn't forced on people, and that millions of people in the Pokemon world live out their lives just like we do in real life, they have paying jobs and families, and they can go out their entire day without even saying the P-word once, just like in real life.

The cities in the games are the major and sub-major cities of each region, while each region itself is more or less like a state/province as opposed to a full-on sovereign nation-states like some people act like they are (if Kanto and Johto were separate nations, you would need a passport to travel between them unless there's a Schengen Area type deal with their border), Kalos is the only exception due to it's real-life basis on majority of France as opposed to simply being parts of a nation like previous regions were based on. The reason for this is because in real life, the term "region" usually only refers to part of a nation as opposed to the entire thing, and in some countries (like Japan), the term is used for political subdivisions like US States and Canadian Provinces are. Compared to what previous posts have stated, realistically, Unova is too small to carry the entire US population, government and economy within it. This is especially true since we have yet to be given an official full map of the Pokemon world, just those of entire regions.

Here's how I depict each canonical region: The regions of the first 5 generations equate more to different parts of the United States and Canada as opposed to Japan, mainly due to the absence of Japanese cultural aspects in the regions due to the franchise being aimed towards an international audience in it's later years. Johto is arguably the only exception to this depending on how you see it (instead of Kanto and Johto, I use a modernized version of Ransei from Pokemon Conquest to represent Japan, because hey, who said we could only limit ourselves to the main series regions?). The geography of each region is mostly the same with a few changes to make more sense with real life science, so all cities, mountains, forests and such remain where they are, albeit with hundreds of miles between each major city and many small towns between places like Viridian and Pewter much like there are in real life, because if anything, a trainer's journey through each region would be too short if only the main cities in each game existed.

• Kanto equates to Florida and is an economic center, and Silph is a major tech company similar to Sony and Microsoft in the fact that it not only produces the usual trainer gear, but also televisions, computers, and other media, Saffron is the capital and largest city, equating to Jacksonville and Orlando, and Celadon is in the same metropolitan area and is close-by in a similar manner to the Dallas/Fort Worth metropolitan area. Fuschia would be Miami and the Safari Zone as the everglades, and Cinnabar is Key West.
• Johto would equate to the land mass between Florida and Texas. Ecruteak is the capital and Goldenrod is the largest city.
• Hoenn is Hawaii due to the tropical island climate, and Mauville is the capital and largest city, well, in OR/AS it's stated to be the largest city when in the original R/S/E, Rustburo and Lilycove were all larger.
• Sinnoh is based on northern New England to New Bruinswick and Nova Scotia, primarily due to Sinnoh's shape and climate. Jubilife is the capital and largest city.
• Unova is an interesting case given it's real life basis is on Manhattan Island and part of New Jersey. Here, Unova covers the entirety of New York State as opposed to simply Manhattan. Castelia is obviously based on New York City, while the capital of Unova is Nimbassa, equating to Albany as both are north of NYC and it's Pokemon world equivalent
• Kalos is pretty much the same as real-life France anyways, so there's not much to be changed here. Lumiose is the capital.

As for how trainers go on their journey, I personally believe the education system exists in the Pokemon world in the same manner as it is in real life (and it isn't strictly all Pokemon related, because like I said earlier, I don't like how Pokemon have to be integrated into every aspect of life), and young trainers go on their journey like a summer vacation with the League being like other sports leagues such as baseball and football.

There's so much more I can say, but I can go on forever with this.

 

[Dieter]

So first of all, I just want to say it's really weird that assuming the first four regions are the same size as their real world counterpart, each of this regions is about the size of my entire country (they're actually slightly smaller, except for Sinnoh) Which is really weird, cause I've travelled up and down my country from north to south and east to west and that's all only a matter of couple of hours by train or car. So yeah, that feels kinda weird (now are the Netherlands really flat, unlike those regions, even Kanto) But still, with some help from maps I figured I could travel from one side of my country to the other by foot in max two weeks. Which really puts things into perspective, cause that's really not all that long and it feels kinda weird. So even considering the less than flat surfaces of the regions, you could prolly travel by foot from one side of the region to the other in, what, 3 or 4 weeks for sure, in Kanto and Johto. Hoenn and Sinnoh might take a bit longer than that, as they're more 'wild'. It just kinda puts things in perspective XD

I saw someone mentions that a lot of people go about their daily lives without any pokémon involvement, or even thinking about them, and though I partly agree, I also think the entire society is still very connection with pokémon as a whole. I mean, consider for example pokémon like the machop and timburr lines. They're great helps in construction, who knows, maybe they were even used to aid in the building of absolutely ancient constructions. That's just an example, and I think there are many more ways pokémon influence peoples life in an indirect way. So, even if you're just an office worker or something, you'd probably still have to do with pokémon indirectly. Or even directly, considering some mon's abilities. For example weather changing abilities. What if a herd of Abomasnow decides to move their territory? Snowstorms are gonna come right with em. And there are countless other examples, so I think even if you're not a trainer, pokémon would still be able to quite strongly influence your life

As for the 'villainous teams would pull at their guns afterwards'... though I don't doubt that's an option, we're also dealing with beings made of plants and magma and rock and living steel and whatever else you want. Even if they're pure flesh and blood, they still can do psychic stuff, other nasty things or even just plain use protect or explode in your face. I think guns really wouldn't be all that effective and the moment you'd pull one out, you could very well be dead meat.

As for the notion of violent war, I def think wars fought with pokémon have the potential to be far more devastating, so people really also would be more careful (at least in modern day)

Aside from that, considering legendaries and all, most of whom really don't have a lot of patience for fighting and conflict and mostly seem to prefer some sort of harmony, iI think constantly fighting would also cause a lot of issues. And we've also seen most pokémon are pretty in tune with nature and legendaries, so I'd imagine they'd not assist humans if they'd think it would harm them. And I don't necessarily think all pokémon have human intelligence (which might be a weird term to use anyway, cause human intelligence is just so much related to how we perceive the world) but nearly all of em (save magikarp) seem to posses some kind of intelligence

Eh, that last bit was a bit rambly, but I can't really get it better structured atm and i'll leave it in as is

 

[Beth Pavell]

So first of all, I just want to say it's really weird that assuming the first four regions are the same size as their real world counterpart, each of this regions is about the size of my entire country (they're actually slightly smaller, except for Sinnoh) Which is really weird, cause I've travelled up and down my country from north to south and east to west and that's all only a matter of couple of hours by train or car. So yeah, that feels kinda weird (now are the Netherlands really flat, unlike those regions, even Kanto) But still, with some help from maps I figured I could travel from one side of my country to the other by foot in max two weeks. Which really puts things into perspective, cause that's really not all that long and it feels kinda weird. So even considering the less than flat surfaces of the regions, you could prolly travel by foot from one side of the region to the other in, what, 3 or 4 weeks for sure, in Kanto and Johto. Hoenn and Sinnoh might take a bit longer than that, as they're more 'wild'. It just kinda puts things in perspective XD

That's true. A few things to consider, though. First is that the regions may not have the same infrastructure as an equivalent place in the real world. And even if they do have roads on the same scale as we do, it might be that they often have to skirt pokémon reserves. I think giving pokémon space so they don't come into constant conflict with human spaces would be a major concern for planners.

I mentioned somewhere above my guesses for how long it would take to traverse a region, assuming a pace of ten miles a day. I should also mention that for a training journey, these times would be more elastic when you take into account the less than direct path to visit Gyms, routes of interest, training time etc etc